Show your got dang tags cmon people!!

[subversiontwo.7501]

This topic is getting a bit exhausted at this point. Several people have given you answers (and served up some humble pie). However, I think I can give you some pretty direct comments on your main concerns, so I'll give it a try:

12 hours ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

 I've yet to see a good reason that makes sense to me for this hidden-tag nonsense I've seen.

There are only two things of importance here: (Hidden) Tags do many more things, as a tool, than you have yet to understand and the entire premise of your thread and argument(s) is based on a fallacy that taking away the tool to run private tags will make people run more public tags and that just isn't the case. It will make people run without tag more, only depriving them of the tool itself.

13 hours ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

TLDR : show tag, more fun 4 non-squad teammates.

This qoute is a good bridging example into the larger discussion: Same as how the tag is just a tool, the squad is just a tool too. Squads are generally not concerned with the "fun" of people outside of them. They are simply not the tool for that. You are mistaking the squad for things like community and community-building for which there are other tools.

13 hours ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

Apathy /.../ a fast ticket to getting people to quit wvw / guild wars 2 / their server for good. Which is I guess the ultimate point of me actually making this post in the first place so thanks for proving this is an actual problem that exists.

These are mainly community concerns, not squad concerns even if they may affect squads further down the line. This is also where you go from being completely wrong to at least part right. These are actual problems that exist. You are just not ready for where responsibility lies or how to be responsible for it.

So, it isn't a player forming a squad's responsibility to shoulder all of that alone, it is a collective effort. It isn't the time (when running a squad) or the place (a squad) to solve those issues and if a player is tagging up they are likely the least apathetic player on that map.

However, apathy in communities and community-building is without a doublt an actual problem that exists.

Yet, the solution to these issues is not to take away tools to better organise squads, it is to provide tools to better organise communities. Those tools are on Communication platforms and in Alliances etc.
 

Spoiler

To navigate that context:

I don't like that an increasing amount of tags combine being public and hidden (usually to draw people onto communication platforms) today, I don't like it anymore than you do. However, it is not because I think it shouldn't be allowed. It's because I think it is commonly used more out of routine and apathy, a lazy way to trim some fat with little benefit in most cases, than something thought-out that furthers community building. It is not that it is used, but rather how it is used: routinely and unecessarily - often instead of building community or because the community effort has collapsed.

The reality is that most (server-) communities in WvW have long-since collapsed and mostly just coasts on, on routine (or is clamoured by people who have very little influence on those communities to begin with).

And even if there may be some apathy (or perhaps better phrased: lethargy) in running publics on private settings just to trim some fat or out of some routine thinking that it trims fat or makes people more social or receptive or communicative if they turn up on comms without listening or talking - it also says something about the apathy of all other players if the tags have to resort to private settings on public squads just to get people on comms: the very comms that are also used to build community. Asking should suffice and they shouldn't even have to ask in the first place. People can be expected to be on comms if they want to be in squads and by extension apart of building a community, as that is a tool for that.

Ultimately, building community is a collective effort - not the responsibility of tags or just other players and not you: It is a social contract and that contract is usually severed by the people who complain about these things first. If you think hidden tags are a problem large enough to go on tirade about on the forums, you are also very ill equipped to deal with the fallout of going back to having only visible tags or the comparatively gargantuan task of actually building community (eg., having the majority of your server agree upon a color coding for the tag colors and respecting it).

If you want to look at the basics of community building then most server communities in this game has formed through certain guilds wielding influence on their server, through networking of guilds, through the use of communication platforms, and over which once healthy routines for communication, division of labour, social contracts and information for the server was shared. It could be something as simple as "here are server builds" (information), "run them in public tags" (contracts), "guild A talks to guild B on disc" (communication) and talk about days and times to run private and public squads to coordinate and share content instead of competing (division of labour). It could also be more complex things such as not overrecruiting or poaching players (which is a form of social contract) or distinguishing between public guilds and private guilds (which is a division of labour) to recruit, inform and provide content for different purposes.

Many of those things not very different from how Alliances are likely to work: With one likely influential guild networked by multiple other guilds that form either similar pieces or different pieces that still fit together.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by subversiontwo.7501

[jaif.3518]

14 hours ago, Kirevey.5079 said:

Please stop blaming players for people leaving the game mode. Is ANET's fault. They failed to do proper introduction of how the game mode works to new players in game and now they think the only way they can be useful is to follow someone with a tag.

You're implying that if new players were educated they would try roaming.

I doubt that ... i think the players who look for public tags are looking for big fights, nothing else. They want to slap buttons in a big free for all, not run off and get slaughtered trying to take a camp.

[Dredsh.2360]

Suggestion on the matter:

- Asuran/Mists or whatever that you can now purchase from Duncan and you can talk to him to turn it on/off

All it would do it is allow the tracking of the players with it currently active on the same map, so you could see your allies.

You would have a buff that would make it clear it was on and that's it.

I feel it wouldn't generate any negative impact on the things discussed here and would help with what OP wants, no?

on a side note i don't really know if it's DOABLE for anet in regard of how buggy the game is.

[RisingDawn.5796]

People just find a way to cloud around the tag and queue a map, for the tag who is on voice anyway and make their job harder, as their squad can't fit on the map, especially if the other servers squad has a strong comp and well coordinated squad.

We tried going full open the other day, the ones not on voice just w pushed and got downed instantly giving free bags to the enemies, due to bad movement, so there's a reason why there are voice only tags. For coordination.

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[babana.7521]

23 hours ago, exeggcuter.8394 said:

too long

TLDR : show tag, more fun 4 non-squad teammates.

Question: how does showing tag make the game more fun for non-squad teammates?

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 7/13/2023 at 7:20 AM, Kirevey.5079 said:

Please stop blaming players for people leaving the game mode. Is ANET's fault. They failed to do proper introduction of how the game mode works to new players in game and now they think the only way they can be useful is to follow someone with a tag.

Very true. A good example is dungeons, which fell apart due to neglect. Players would have continued playing that if it were maintained and with decent rewards, You don't blame dungeon players for that; that's just dumb.

 Players will always follow what is polished and what is shiny. Taking half a decade to do alliances and leaving bugs for an entire decade is far more damaging than anything players could do.

Edited July 14, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[XenesisII.1540]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:20 AM, Kirevey.5079 said:

Please stop blaming players for people leaving the game mode. Is ANET's fault. They failed to do proper introduction of how the game mode works to new players in game and now they think the only way they can be useful is to follow someone with a tag.

Doesn't help that pve players are coming in from running zergy map metas and bosses that require tags up to function, so they come into wvw and expect the same thing.

Also doesn't help when every group is yelling at you to run meta or get off, then they tell you to stay on tag like good cattle while they lead you to stand in the aoe bomb slaughterhouse.

All comes back to Anet's design of content and professions pushing to follow tags, run meta, be a zombie.

🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️

[Math.5123]

As a Commander, I don't want people outside voice on my tag as they are more likely to rally enemy downs than to contribute to the fight. 

[enkidu.5937]

50 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

🙂 Mind sharing your definition in a 'commander'? It's the weekend versus work day. Some of us banter more during the week since Forum Wars 2 is a good take 5 while at work lol. During the weekend, we like to play when we can. 🙂  

I dont know if they are true commanders ingame so I used the " ". The TO made the assumption that making tags visible makes WvW more enjoyable? I disagree, imo its better that groups who dont want to participate in teamplay just stay hidden. Otherwise people would realize that the keep that was close to Tier 2 got lost, even there were groups on the map, but they just wanted to "play their own special game mode", where defending is for noobs. And that they blocked the map, so no one could come for help and the keep got flipped. And people would realize that there are some special "public zergs" that rather kick casuals and lose all fights all evening before they would fill up the squad with casuals and win at least some of these fights.

 

I just added the braindead, because its the usual stuff: just because most players don't function in the tactic the com wants to play doesnt mean the players are bad, it means that the com's tactic is bad. So imo its better that these coms keep their tag hidden, and the players that want and are able to play that specific playstyle usually have no problem with finding the hidden tag. They log into voice chat and ask where the tag is.

 

On 7/13/2023 at 5:53 PM, exeggcuter.8394 said:

There were 2 points to me making this post:

1. An apparently failed attempt to convince private tags to show their tag for the sake people not in their squad.

2. To understand whether there is a good reason why a tag might choose to be hidden, or at least hear a reason I've never seen before.

When you ask for reasons to hide tags, guess what, you will cause more coms to hide their tag, cause you provide them with inspiration and excuses. If you want to make coms run open / public you should ask for good reasons for and not against that. For example if I see a com that is known for kicking casuals and not defending, I will leave the map cause its already lost. So they can do their PPK and I will find another map where I can play WvW with people that also want to play WvW. win-win

 

In the end, you can just fill your friendlist with names of known coms and players, so you will have no problems to spot hidden tags and then decide which map is to be avoided.

Edited July 16, 2023 by enkidu.5937

[Polar.8634]

On 7/13/2023 at 4:48 PM, exeggcuter.8394 said:

This is honestly something ANet should straight up change. Make teammates visible on the map regardless of distance. Other games of this sort of style do that already. (Planetside 2 comes to mind.)

most of your reasons are nonsense, combine 3 and 5 into one, then add to that voice requirement.

Guild squads actually easier to join unlike random voice tag, just join guild. Easy, right? Not only you have opportunity to join raids, but also work on builds and coordination training with fellow teammates.

Private tags are the last defence line against toxic casuals(further "TC". You see, TC when he joins squad, does not want to join voice chanel for coordination, use supplies to build siege, he also does not have build to fit party composition. If such TC could freely join any squad, he could them grief them by rallybotting, giving up location of squad, wasting support's cooldowns on himself instead of someone else etc.

Edit: ofc such voice tag is only needed when facing another coordinated group/bigger group. When there is no such a group, tags are often open. Or if there is such a group with open tag present, here is what happens: a - open tag wipes, b - open tag changes map. So you dont have to worry about tags being hidden at all

#AnetStopTC

Edited July 16, 2023 by Polar.8634

[Dawdler.8521]

On 7/14/2023 at 3:22 PM, babana.7521 said:

Question: how does showing tag make the game more fun for non-squad teammates?

Guess you've never seen a real FSP Siege (TM).

2 catas on the back, 2 rams at the front, the side walls are already down and no one in either of the 3 groups say a single word except that one guy on the other side of the map going "anyone on that objective?".

Here's the thing, knowing where you teammates are - regardless of you being in the squad or not - is *important* for overall map strategy. If I'm on alpine and our 50 man zerg is manouvering around the enemy T3 bay and the same enemy currently hold T1 hills, I want to know exactly where our zerg is even if I got nothing to do with it, because I have a clear opening to hit hills. Even if we are just a couple of people we could easily breach those walls. If I know that the enemy zerg which we couldnt possibly handle is busy elsewhere, I know when to strike another target. It goes for cross map behaviour as well, knowing on which map our zerg is. And if we see the enemy zerg it's pretty good to know if there is any point in hunting it so that our zerg can intercept or whether our zerg has just kittened of somewhere else without saying a peep.

People argue that "oh man it's better to have a hidden squad!". No it's not better. It's the only option available since we all know the behaviour of lazy zerglings just going "huehuehue any tag?!?!?" and f I was a "fight commander" I wouldnt want randoms around either or expect random people to respect the composition of the zerg and their own role outside it.

Of course, I wouldnt expect the "fight commander" to recognize any of this either. They're probably just going to think we're stealing their content so should gtfo of the border.

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

knowing where you teammates are - regardless of you being in the squad or not - is *important* for overall map strategy.

True, that is indeed important for overall map strategy.  Yet the game doesn't do this for you and never has.  It doesn't draw your allies on your map unless you are close to them.  It doesn't put a big banner announcement to let you know your team is attacking X structures.  Nor does it let you know where the enemy is.  It only leaves clues for you to follow, like white and orange swords or revealed/watchtower or yaks disappearing from the map.  It's the GW2 version of "fog of war".

Taking away this fog would just be another version of hand-holding.  It would completely take away any choice, any agency players have with regards to strategy.  Games don't play themselves for you.

Organization will generally always win over the unorganized.  It's up to players to organize how they want, not force organization.

Before Squad UI and the ability to make tags invisible, guilds that wanted to run private didn't run any tag at all.  Removing private tags isn't going to change any behavior and players are still going to have to figure out fog of war for themselves rather than rely upon the game to do it for them.

There are legitimate strategic reasons why a group would want to remain invisible.  They may be trying to avoid a spy.  They may not be trying to attract a large following which is easier for an enemy to scout.  They may not want to generate orange swords.  Games usually give players choices of strategy, not pigeonhole them into a single strategy.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Ashen.2907]

So tag up and show your tag OP.

[TheGrimm.5624]

26 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

So tag up and show your tag OP.

Again, to be fair to the OP, aka Exegg/Pinecone, they do. Which to me makes it a fair question even though when I run one with my havoc, I do not, if there is already a main tag running to draw people together. Hence why I say they don't have to be mutually exclusive. But as Pinecone has seen, and I have as well, there are times when the main tag is hidden and those not used to havocs/roaming or running tagless kind of just stand around. Where we might disagree is that an issue with the tag's logic or players just not taking initiative to acting together? I admit I enjoy flash mobs and when I see large numbers of player moving and getting things done without a tag it can be some of the best times and some great fights. When I see a tag just pop up later and that same mass just loses focus it makes me stop and say, what just happened. 

[misfired.8403]

I do not have a dog in the fight since I deleted GW2 from my hard drive but...

8 hours ago, enkidu.5937 said:

"play their own special game mode"

This is exactly why I quit WvW many months ago. The current player base as well as Anet has no idea what the focus of World vs World is suppose to be. Is it GvG?  Is it just for the fights? Is it just to get Legendaries? Is it to capture the most objectives and get a better score? Is it to attack the Red team? Some of the complaints on this forum including this topic is because the gamemode has no focus and is a too freeform. Also, Anet has done very little to get it back in focus. It is just players and guilds doing their own thing.

In comparision, I am playing Fort Aspenwood and Jade Quarry in Factions. I know exactly what I am supposed to do depending if I queue up as a Luxon or Kurzick. There are no players or guilds doing their own thing in that gamemode. Even the bots in FA and JQ know what to do. I can not say the same for WvW players.

 

[Ashen.2907]

36 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Again, to be fair to the OP, aka Exegg/Pinecone, they do. Which to me makes it a fair question even though when I run one with my havoc, I do not, if there is already a main tag running to draw people together. Hence why I say they don't have to be mutually exclusive. But as Pinecone has seen, and I have as well, there are times when the main tag is hidden and those not used to havocs/roaming or running tagless kind of just stand around. Where we might disagree is that an issue with the tag's logic or players just not taking initiative to acting together? I admit I enjoy flash mobs and when I see large numbers of player moving and getting things done without a tag it can be some of the best times and some great fights. When I see a tag just pop up later and that same mass just loses focus it makes me stop and say, what just happened. 

I see.

My mistake and apologies to the OP then.

I wont edit my precious post so as to not hide my error.

[Chaba.5410]

42 minutes ago, misfired.8403 said:

The current player base as well as Anet has no idea what the focus of World vs World is suppose to be.

What if the focus is akin to a sandbox?

Then players are playing it exactly how it's supposed to be.

It's certainly not Structured PvP like your GW1 comparison, although the scoring system is very similar.  It's more "unstructured" PvP.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[ArchonWing.9480]

4 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Again, to be fair to the OP, aka Exegg/Pinecone, they do. Which to me makes it a fair question even though when I run one with my havoc, I do not, if there is already a main tag running to draw people together. Hence why I say they don't have to be mutually exclusive. But as Pinecone has seen, and I have as well, there are times when the main tag is hidden and those not used to havocs/roaming or running tagless kind of just stand around. Where we might disagree is that an issue with the tag's logic or players just not taking initiative to acting together? I admit I enjoy flash mobs and when I see large numbers of player moving and getting things done without a tag it can be some of the best times and some great fights. When I see a tag just pop up later and that same mass just loses focus it makes me stop and say, what just happened. 

Oh, SBI. Well, that's a bit easier to explain.

Like a lot of dying/dead servers, whatever long term players have coalesced into their own guilds/cliques and really have nothing to do with other servermates. There is essentially no concept of server anymore, as shown by our like 10 or so official discords and also a teamspeak that still is being paid for! But basically everyone hangs out in their own little discords.

It's also entirely possible that because of this, you will see a group of players repping the same guild but they're actually not running a squad because players have been absorbed into those few guilds. They're just chasing yellow dots.

And to be fair that is kind of a garbage experience if you are on the link or a new player since you have to actively seek out the discord (which discord? I don't even bother anymore myself though I typically have the opposite problem of people wanting me in their squad when I don't want to.)

Like sometimes you already have your own comp. and if you join the squad they'll probably break it unless you specifically ask and well, if we just keep our comp outside of the squad there really is no difference.

And historically the server itself has always been very difficult to organize and as a result a lot of the bigger guilds have left for that reason and many others. So sometimes there actually is no squad.  A lot of these hidden tags are on the link, and mostly fly by night fight guilds that have no intention of interacting with the community or playing the game outside of their runs. 

This all kinda boils down to the general state of WvW, where nobody cares about anything or how the server is doing. Apathy might just be the worst sentiment to have.

I mean, it does suck when you see several small groups taking turns wiping to the enemy when they could just spend 5 seconds to group together. But people are stubborn.

Edited July 16, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[XenesisII.1540]

20 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I mean, it does suck when you see several small groups taking terms wiping to the enemy when they could just spend 5 seconds to group together. But people are stubborn.

I still get a good laugh at this absurdity, especially when it's up against a well known group, sometimes they feed 3-4 times of one pushes before they finally give up. I just don't know if it's absolute faith and confidence to be carried by the boon ball structure or failure to properly assess their opponents. Solo gvg no aj curtesy rules went out the window when groups started running 40-50 instead of the old usual 25. 😏

Edited July 16, 2023 by XenesisII.1540

[ArchonWing.9480]

33 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I still get a good laugh at this absurdity, especially when it's up against a well known group, sometimes they feed 3-4 times of one pushes before they finally give up. I just don't know if it's absolute faith and confidence to be carried by the boon ball structure or failure to properly assess their opponents. Solo gvg no aj curtesy rules went out the window when groups started running 40-50 instead of the old usual 25. 😏

Yea. It's kinda bizzare behavior where a group seems an ally group about to arrive and then suicides in. It's like why can't we just wait 5 seconds, or even better just do nothing and let the enemy push in so the incoming group just as to attack.

I think it could be not only a failure to assess their opponents but also their allies. My other thought might be because they think the other allied group is a bunch of rallybots and there tends to be a lot of contempt for people not in the group. That's part of the insular mindset I was complaining about earlier.

I can't really explain it; I just wish I could use that emoji from Lost Ark (it pops up above your character): https://mokoko.info/assets/img/emotes/emoji_a_08.png

Although funny enough sometimes when people complain about no tag or no people on tag, we get everyone that has a tag to display their tag so the entire map is filled with them. That actually works better than whatever the heck is going on normally in some cases... this actually does solve the problem in OP.

Edited July 16, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Chichimec.9364]

8 hours ago, misfired.8403 said:

 

...The current player base as well as Anet has no idea what the focus of World vs World is suppose to be. Is it GvG?  Is it just for the fights? Is it just to get Legendaries? Is it to capture the most objectives and get a better score? Is it to attack the Red team? Some of the complaints on this forum including this topic is because the gamemode has no focus and is a too freeform. Also, Anet has done very little to get it back in focus. It is just players and guilds doing their own thing...

 

 

7 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

What if the focus is akin to a sandbox?

Then players are playing it exactly how it's supposed to be...

Personally I have to agree with Chaba on this one. For me, WvW is a sandbox where people get to create their own  play styles. Want to run with a tightly organized, comped group that kicks the butt of anyone not as well organizedas they? There are folks who do that. Want to ppt, running around capping everything in sight with a casual zerg? There are folks who do that. Want to run solo, roaming around the various maps on your own? Guess what? There are folks who do that. Want to jump in and out of WvW, doing just enough to get some easy dailies or to work on getting a GoB? Yup, there are folks who do that.

I love that freedom myself. When I started video gaming, back in the Sega Genesis/Super Nintendo days, I played only solo rpgs. Those games generally had a main path for you to follow with some side quests along the way. I can't play those kind of games anymore. They are too restrictive and limiting after all the freedom GW 2 gives me in both WvW and PVE. I play what I want, when I want to, without having to follow someone else's linear progression. Misfired, I am not saying you are wrong. You've found a play style in a game that works for you and that's good. I've found one that works for me in this game and that's good too.  😉

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I see.

My mistake and apologies to the OP then.

I wont edit my precious post so as to not hide my error.

Sorry it was more that the issue isn't just a single dimension and since I have seen the poster's actions in the past, I thought I would share what they were seeing, even if I disagree with the idea they brought up. Hope that helps.

[TheGrimm.5624]

10 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Oh, SBI. Well, that's a bit easier to explain.

lol, no, I am the suicide monkey here 🙂. We have been linked with Pinecones server in the past.

[TheGrimm.5624]

10 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I still get a good laugh at this absurdity, especially when it's up against a well known group,

lol, don't worry my friend, its also sometimes due to stubborn kittens. Glad to have you and I can promise to entertain in bad ideas. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

13 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

lol, no, I am the suicide monkey here 🙂. We have been linked with Pinecones server in the past.

Oh ok, that's probably why I thought they were on this server. Same kitten really though.

Edited July 17, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480