Relics Bring New Equipment to Guild Wars 2: Secrets of the Obscure

[Acheron.1580]

31 minutes ago, Foxgod.1038 said:

Because there are people that have crafted them and as such paid 400G more than the ones that didn't. Very simple.

Refund the mat costs of the 7th rune, making the normal helmet your underwater helmet, make the "aquabreather" slot a skin slot for underwater. If we are going to ignore underwater combat as much as we are let's just simplify it. Very very simple. I'm also convinced your 7th rune isn't going to return the 400 gold value you think it will, Anet isn't going to be that generous.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Acheron.1580
Relic = Rune. Words have dissociated

[Adzekul.3104]

Thankful for the continued communication, even if I don't agree with some of the details, in particular the previous ones.

Respect,

Adzekul

[stormemperor.3745]

5 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hello all and happy Friday! I've been keeping an eye on this thread and have been working with members of several development teams to round up answers to frequently asked questions that I've seen. (Huge thanks to everyone on the team who helped me with answers!) Answers are below, but I've also added them to my original post so they're easy to find and share. I'm going to get caught up on the thread this morning and while there are things we can't discuss right now, if I see more questions that can be answered I'll work with the team on those and try to provide more replies. 

As always, thank you all for continuing to discuss and provide feedback--we appreciate it! 

FAQ:

• What happens to rune slot 6?
  • Slot 6 will be another stat bonus. Some runes already have a stat bonus here, and those that don’t will have one added. 
• Can I equip 5 runes and +1 of another set?
  • You can, as you can now, but this will be giving up the 6-slot bonus of one rune set for the 1 slot bonus of another.
• Will relics that launch cover all the special effect from each 6-rune set?
  • Not all existing 6-slot rune bonuses will be available as relics at launch. We will continue adding additional core relics over time as part of our ongoing commitment to improving our core game features.
• Can you explain the note about “choice of three core relics”?
  • When we say "your choice of three relics,” we mean that you’ll get to choose a total of three relics (exact number subject to change, but that’s our current plan) from among the available core relics.
• There are runes that have the same exact stat combinations up to 5 runes and then the 6th rune is different. For example, the runes of the pack, fireworks and surging. Now the rune of the pack actually gives stats (+125 precision) for the 6th rune. But the other two only have the special ability and give no stat bonus. Or does the 25% increase in movement speed count as a stat increase?
  • In cases like this, we’ll be making sure that runes with duplicate 1-5 bonuses have unique 6 slot stats. In this example, 25% movement speed will count as a stat increase and will be seen on a handful of rune 6 pieces.
• Will you be retiring any runes (due to duplicates or otherwise)?
  • No. All of the existing rune sets will have unique stat combinations and none of them will be removed.

Can you be clear for once and tell use what happens to Scholar and thief runes, no one cares about rune of pack or fireworks.

We crafted runes for complete 6 rune bonus and you are telling us that those will be moved to relics because of what? new employee? Even interns aren't stupid enough to do something like this.

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

Hi all, I've got a few more answers to questions we've seen frequently. I'll add these to my original post as well:

• Do we need 7 or will 6 that everyone crafted be enough towards the progress? 
  • We recognize most players will have only crafted up to 6 runes, but for players that have crafted seven, the extra effort will be recognized. That said, there is no requirement to make 7 legendary runes.
     
• Why only "progress towards," rather than rewarding the relic itself? 
  • The relic will need to be unlocked separately because relics will have new abilities beyond those covered by runes previously, and the legendary relic will be capable of expanding with new relic releases.
     
•  Is the relic choice box granted to each character over level 60, or do you get one per account?  
  • The relic choice box is granted per character.

[Randulf.7614]

Rubi, as much as it is appreciated with the faqs to see live communication in action, can these also be added to the existing blog post as soon as is convenient to keep info altogether? It’s great getting the answers, but they might get missed and as the blog post is severely lacking in detail (which has contributed to this thread - eg an evolving legendary relic was important info to have known sooner in the blog and I’m confused why it was omitted), this will help consolidate info in one place. Even if it’s next week.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[KrakensEmbrace.8215]

Just now, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

 

• Why only "progress towards," rather than rewarding the relic itself? 
  • The relic will need to be unlocked separately because relics will have new abilities beyond those covered by runes previously, and the legendary relic will be capable of expanding with new relic releases.
    

Not a valid reason.
It was ANET's choice for the new abilities to be beyond the original rune bonuses and it was ANET's choice for this change to negatively impact the function of a set of legendary items players already had. It's not on players to eat your multiple kitten ups.

Again, you're setting a huge and really bad precedence with this. 
I guess at least thanks for finally saying you won't be. But I'd hope you would  understand by now how little value your words actually have at this point with how often the things you post either never happening and/or not being accurate. Ya'll got so much trust to earn back and I don't think ANET is honestly capable. 

[Bookah pls.9352]

1 minute ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Refund the mat costs of the 7th relic, making the normal helmet your underwater helmet, make the "aquabreather" slot a skin slot for underwater. If we are going to ignore underwater combat as much as we are let's just simplify it. Very very simple. I'm also convinced your 7th rune isn't going to return the 400 gold value you think it will, Anet isn't going to be that generous.

Gw2fficiency currently sets a legendary rune at 389g (that's buying all materials at order price not listed sell price so realistically it's more than that, however people will have some of the materials already so it would cost less, cancel it out and call it the 389g)

I understand peoples desire for removing the breather slot entirely argument but i really disagree with it. I do believe though that aquatic breathers should be able to use your regular helm slots appearances as a transmute option. But i'm really not a fan of getting rid of it because it devalues everyone's crafting and purchasing of breathers over the years, not to mention it also removes an extremely useful niche that the aquatic slot offers, Swim speed infusions, not everyone uses them but they are honestly great when you have a high level one.

I'd much rather see the inclusion of the legendary aquatic breather, a single legendary breather craft that unlocks for all 3 armor types, it's totally and entirely optional, but for those that want it, it's there, it keeps the swim speed infusion niche alive and keeps a valid reason to have a 7th rune slot for those who have crafted it, while also being a good avenue to compensate for the 7th rune slot as people who have the 7th rune are generally people who want every item to be legendary so would welcome the breather being the final legendary piece being filled, not to mention the people who actually create the 7th are those who do care (even if it's very little or just for completion sake) about the breather slot so they are probably the biggest target market for a legendary breather. 

Those with 6+ legendary runes should have the full progress done for legendary relic slot, and those with 7 runes could be given progression towards the legendary breather, like a precursor. There's no downsides to this approach, everyone who wants a legendary aquatic breather finally gets their wish, those with 6+ legendary runes are fully compensated and those with the 7th rune are also compensated in a way that keeps in line with the reason they have a 7th slot. Those who don't want a legendary breather simply carry on as normal and don't have to bother with it.

 

[Tulki.1458]

25 minutes ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Why only "progress towards," rather than rewarding the relic itself? 

• The relic will need to be unlocked separately because relics will have new abilities beyond those covered by runes previously, and the legendary relic will be capable of expanding with new relic releases.

Er to be fair to us, this seems to be avoiding the spirit of the question. We all know that relics are a separate equipment slot, but this doesn't answer for why people who already created a full set of legendary runes need to do more or spend more up to a year later to gain back the functionality that was removed from them.

I'm going to be extremely blunt in my criticism about this question. Legendary runes were exceedingly expensive to craft. You sell gold on the gem store. I don't buy gold on the gem store, but it is something that you sell and even display banner ads for. You have made the choice to remove functionality from something that you potentially baited players into paying tens or hundreds of dollars for, placed it behind an expansion, and are now saying that those same players will wind up paying even more to reobtain. I cannot think of any other game where doing this would be considered acceptable, and the amount of dancing around this question between the blog post and multiple forum threads is getting silly. It seems like the only way a change or even a bare minimum answer will happen is if it becomes a PR nightmare like mount skins were. I didn't spend real money on legendary runes, but if I did, I would certainly feel like ArenaNet just scammed me. As it is, I feel like ArenaNet wasted a bunch of my time instead, which is also bad.

I know it is a new system. Everybody knows it is a new system. This is starting to look like a scam, because your team won't answer for why it was designed this way.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Tulki.1458

[Spanky.2957]

5 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

 

• There are runes that have the same exact stat combinations up to 5 runes and then the 6th rune is different. For example, the runes of the pack, fireworks and surging. Now the rune of the pack actually gives stats (+125 precision) for the 6th rune. But the other two only have the special ability and give no stat bonus. Or does the 25% increase in movement speed count as a stat increase?
  • In cases like this, we’ll be making sure that runes with duplicate 1-5 bonuses have unique 6 slot stats. In this example, 25% movement speed will count as a stat increase and will be seen on a handful of rune 6 pieces.
• Will you be retiring any runes (due to duplicates or otherwise)?
  • No. All of the existing rune sets will have unique stat combinations and none of them will be removed.

So in order to consolidate runes and minimize the impact a unique effect has on a player's decision to equip a set of runes... you're making 6 rune sets unique again... and not retiring the overlap? This seems like a massive waste of development times and resources for something that I've literally never seen anyone ask for. 

You guys are creating yet another grind for players to pursue in order to justify what exactly? Just padding gameplay time with the next carrot at the end of a stick?

Decoupling runes from their six set bonus for the purposes of build crafting and diversity is neat, but don't hide it behind another grind. Give people the "Legendary" Relic that will allow them to play with their builds with the freedom that you claim you want people to have. 

If you're not getting all core rune 6-set bonuses in at the start of the Relic launch then I personally would prefer you delay the launch of Relics. How many players have to have their builds literally removed from the game before this is seen as another failed game design decision from this willfully inept dev team? 

Quit launching products and features that are half baked and doomed to garner majority negative feedback. Do your part in making sure that features ship READY TO GO.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Why only "progress towards," rather than rewarding the relic itself? 

The relic will need to be unlocked separately because relics will have new abilities beyond those covered by runes previously, and the legendary relic will be capable of expanding with new relic releases.

Those "new abilities" do not seem to be any different than just introducing new runes with new special effects, which would have been covered by legendary runes. So, that brings us to a question: Are you going to use the same (or similar) explanation to invalidate a different legendary in the future in order to make players grind for them again? Notice, that there will need to be a clear statement about it. If you say nothing or say something ambigious, it will mean voiding any kind of assurances legendary gear might have once had. Which you might actually intend, but if you do, at least be honest about it.

[Bookah pls.9352]

7 minutes ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hi all, I've got a few more answers to questions we've seen frequently. I'll add these to my original post as well:

• Why only "progress towards," rather than rewarding the relic itself? 
  • The relic will need to be unlocked separately because relics will have new abilities beyond those covered by runes previously, and the legendary relic will be capable of expanding with new relic releases.
    

Can you please confirm if the legendary relic requires the SotO expansion to complete or not?  This information is kind of important since this relic is taking a feature away from a pre existing non SotO legendary item.

[Healix.5819]

11 minutes ago, Tulki.1458 said:

Er to be fair to us, this seems to be avoiding the spirit of the question. We all know that relics are a separate equipment slot, but this doesn't answer for why people who already created a full set of legendary runes need to do more or spend more up to a year later to gain back the functionality that was removed from them.

Because it's not equal. If they had given rune bonuses their own slot and relics their own slot, then they could have simply given the legendary rune bonus for having 6 runes. By merging them, it'll need to effectively cost 6 runes + a legendary relic, so another 2000g or whatever on top.

Considering how it's being implemented, the goal is to create a sink, so expect the worst. All problems could have been avoided if relics were simply account unlocks.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Healix.5819

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, Healix.5819 said:

so another 2000g or whatever on top.

You must be joking...

Edited July 21, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Spittinglama.5287]

I just want to say here that considering the way core vs expansions relic bonuses were described where they will be unlocked via achievements or other systems... I hope the plan for legendary relics is that it functions more as a way to use the ones you have UNLOCKED via achievements or collections rather than making a legendary relic and getting full access to all current and future relics. I like the idea of having something to work towards unlocking and then it becomes a permanent option within your legendary relic, and also having something interesting to unlock as future relics are added.

[pooiyx.7860]

On 7/20/2023 at 11:47 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Learn all about the expansion's newest equipment slot.

EDIT: Below are some answers to frequently asked questions. We may add more as we keep an eye on this thread and see questions we are able to answer at this time.

 

• What happens to rune slot 6?
  • Slot 6 will be another stat bonus. Some runes already have a stat bonus here, and those that don’t will have one added. 
     
• Can I equip 5 runes and +1 of another set?
  • You can, as you can now, but this will be giving up the 6-slot bonus of one rune set for the 1 slot bonus of another.
     
• Will relics that launch cover all the special effect from each 6-rune set?
  • Not all existing 6-slot rune bonuses will be available as relics at launch. We will continue adding additional core relics over time as part of our ongoing commitment to improving our core game features.
     
• Can you explain the note about “choice of three core relics”?
  • When we say "your choice of three relics,” we mean that you’ll get to choose a total of three relics (exact number subject to change, but that’s our current plan) from among the available core relics.
     
• There are runes that have the same exact stat combinations up to 5 runes and then the 6th rune is different. For example, the runes of the pack, fireworks and surging. Now the rune of the pack actually gives stats (+125 precision) for the 6th rune. But the other two only have the special ability and give no stat bonus. Or does the 25% increase in movement speed count as a stat increase?
  • In cases like this, we’ll be making sure that runes with duplicate 1-5 bonuses have unique 6 slot stats. In this example, 25% movement speed will count as a stat increase and will be seen on a handful of rune 6 pieces.
     
• Will you be retiring any runes (due to duplicates or otherwise)?
  • No. All of the existing rune sets will have unique stat combinations and none of them will be removed.
     
• What will happen for rune sets with a special ability on rune 2 and 4? 
  • Unique 2 and 4 slot bonuses will become raw stats. (Boon and condition duration increases are not considered unique and will not be removed from runes.)
     

• Do we need 7 or will 6 that everyone crafted be enough towards the progress? 
  • We recognize most players will have only crafted up to 6 runes, but for players that have crafted seven, the extra effort will be recognized. That said, there is no requirement to make 7 legendary runes.
     
• Why only "progress towards," rather than rewarding the relic itself? 
  • The relic will need to be unlocked separately because relics will have new abilities beyond those covered by runes previously, and the legendary relic will be capable of expanding with new relic releases.
     
•  Is the relic choice box granted to each character over level 60, or do you get one per account?  
  • The relic choice box is granted per character.

Will acquiring the Legendary Relic require the SotO expansion? 

[vares.8457]

1 minute ago, pooiyx.7860 said:

Will acquiring the Legendary Relic require the SotO expansion? 

I hope so. 

[Spanky.2957]

1 minute ago, Spittinglama.5287 said:

I just want to say here that considering the way core vs expansions relic bonuses were described where they will be unlocked via achievements or other systems... I hope the plan for legendary relics is that it functions more as a way to use the ones you have UNLOCKED via achievements or collections rather than making a legendary relic and getting full access to all current and future relics. I like the idea of having something to work towards unlocking and then it becomes a permanent option within your legendary relic, and also having something interesting to unlock as future relics are added.

Boo, hiss. I do not like this. Working towards goals; fine. But for the love of god don't let it be build options. When Heart of Thorns first launched, it was impossible to earn the new stat combos outside of PvE and players who exclusively played WvW were precluded from getting access to what would become the de facto meta option in Minstrel's and Nomad's stats for an extended period of time. Now that the single most build defining characteristics are going to be put into yet another grind locked box these traits had better be available by means that are accessible no matter what game mode you choose to play in. 

[Graymatter.4723]

23 minutes ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

•  Is the relic choice box granted to each character over level 60, or do you get one per account?  
  • The relic choice box is granted per character.

Will the relic choice boxes be account bound or character bound? For example, I have a character that I only use for metas so I will probably not put a relic on that character initially. I have a different character with 5 equipment slots and 5 build templates. I use that character for raiding and WvW. It would be useful to use the relic choice from the meta character for my one with 5 equipment templates because it would save a little bit of time outfitting the one I play more often. I would still need to get some extras for some of the other templates but acquiring 2-3 is easier than acquiring 3-4.

[idpersona.3810]

3 minutes ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

Will the relic choice boxes be account bound or character bound? For example, I have a character that I only use for metas so I will probably not put a relic on that character initially. I have a different character with 5 equipment slots and 5 build templates. I use that character for raiding and WvW. It would be useful to use the relic choice from the meta character for my one with 5 equipment templates because it would save a little bit of time outfitting the one I play more often. I would still need to get some extras for some of the other templates but acquiring 2-3 is easier than acquiring 3-4.

From the example pics I believe they are soulbound. But you should get a box that you can choose 3 relics from (core choices only) for every level 60 character you have.

[Cronospere.8143]

32 minutes ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hi all, I've got a few more answers to questions we've seen frequently. I'll add these to my original post as well:

•  
•  Is the relic choice box granted to each character over level 60, or do you get one per account?  
  • The relic choice box is granted per character.

Quickly fill up my 3 empty character slots then. Hehe 

[Graymatter.4723]

4 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

From the example pics I believe they are soulbound. But you should get a box that you can choose 3 relics from (core choices only) for every level 60 character you have.

That's the relic, not the box. It's also gets more complicated because the relic could initially be account bound and become soulbound when equipped.

Edit: The blog post even implies that the second could be the case:

"Additional core relics will not be account bound and can be crafted and shared between players."

Edited July 21, 2023 by Graymatter.4723

[idpersona.3810]

7 minutes ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

That's the relic, not the box. It's also gets more complicated because the relic could initially be account bound and become soulbound when equipped.

Edit: The blog post even implies that the second could be the case:

"Additional core relics will not be account bound and can be crafted and shared between players."

Oh, fair enough. I assumed that is also character bound though I suppose they haven't exactly said so.

I read that to be the non relic-box relics would be tradable. As in the ones we acquire after our initial 3 box choice.

[Spanky.2957]

Frankly, all Relics should have their own effective 'armory' on the account. Much like Legendaries; for every Relic your account unlocks you should be able to select its trait from your Hero panel. Making account bound and *shudders* soulbound relic items is just going to amplify clutter problems. It's back to the days before Unidentified Gear all over again. Too much 𝑓ucking kitten in my inventory.

[spellchekc.5409]

I don't typically post on these forums and I won't be responding to players who respond to this post because it isn't aimed at you!

For the devs:

I'm excited to see what the new system brings and I do support giving you all some more breathing room in the rune/relic design space, but as someone who grinded out 7/7 legendary runes I want to let you know that the uncertainty around how much progress and what will be required from a 7/7 starting point just feels terrible.  As with most of the legendary systems I know there will be some kind of time-gating around the materials used in relics and given that it will be 6 or more months before we're even able to get access to creating the legendary relics, whatever timegating associated with getting back the functionality we're losing, is going to be anxiety driving.  I only speak for myself here, but I invested my time and effort into legendary runes because I wanted the flexibility to tinker and the opportunity cost for investing that time into other parts of the game is real.  Unlike legendary weapons or armor which have a "show off" component, the legendary runes are really there for the quiet nerds who value gw2 as a sandbox experience to play around in.

Please consider grandfathering the existing 7/7 crew into having a legendary relic once it's available.  It's already such a heavy investment in time and resources and it would be a great way to let your players know that you value the time and effort we invest into the game.  If that's not an option then at the very least give us a heads up on the time gated materials required to get us the relic so that we can plan around that early and hit the ground running to get back the functionality we're losing.

 

[Bookah pls.9352]

26 minutes ago, Spittinglama.5287 said:

I just want to say here that considering the way core vs expansions relic bonuses were described where they will be unlocked via achievements or other systems... I hope the plan for legendary relics is that it functions more as a way to use the ones you have UNLOCKED via achievements or collections rather than making a legendary relic and getting full access to all current and future relics. I like the idea of having something to work towards unlocking and then it becomes a permanent option within your legendary relic, and also having something interesting to unlock as future relics are added.

That's a concept i  used to want to for legendary gear in general, it would have been a nice form of progression but that ship has long sailed and honestly i'm glad it never worked that way.

However this is the type of concept i think should be employed for a future Legendary infusion for the cosmetic infusions, legendary would give all the stat options, but if you wanted the cosmetic part of the infusion, you would still need to actually own it and then consume it to add it to your collection, allowing you to use it on one infusion per character for each one you consumed. Keeps the big gold value ones valuable and doesn't devalue their rarity while still giving the quality of life legendary infusions are wanted for.

But that's geting off topic.