We want legendary relics on relics release

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

20 minutes ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

Then I'd suggest you talk to the poorly disguised troll trying to pretend that the people that are upset about this rune change are hysterical idiots. Take him out of the equation and the debate was going just fine.

I see you are new here.

[Acheron.1580]

27 minutes ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

Then I'd suggest you talk to the poorly disguised troll trying to pretend that the people that are upset about this rune change are hysterical idiots. Take him out of the equation and the debate was going just fine.

I'm pretty sure they already did, since the post he made that was insulting people isn't in the thread anymore.

[WeightTrainer.3219]

On 7/20/2023 at 12:31 PM, rune.9572 said:

So let's sum things up.

You take an existing system, remove a feature from it that we already paid for, and slap it onto a new system while asking us to pay for it again.

Is ArenaNet ran by Activision now?

The only acceptable outcome is if people with 7 legendary runes get a legendary relic ON RELEASE, FOR FREE. None of this "significant progress 3 years from now after multiple delays" weaselspeak.

This or riot.

I knew Anet screws us over in WvW and sPvP, never thought they would do it to the rest of the players.

[GeraldBC.4927]

4 hours ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Yes, let's assume that there is a scholar relic to go with my scholar runes. Guess what, that's exactly what everyone is talking about, you figured it out. They REMOVED the effect that scholar had and then said here it is, go buy it back with our new system.

You don't need the expansion to get a scholar relic. It'll be what they call a 'core relic'. It's already available, the only price tag is the one in the trading post. If the thing you're actually bemoaning is having to go to the trading post or craft it, then all I can respond with is "Yes and?"

I'll have to repeat it just because I find it funny that this is seen as some heinous injustice: You will walk to the trading post. You will buy your relic for 50 silver and you will like it. 

In fact what I'd find even funnier is, you know how two of the meta runesets in PvE are from dungeons? What if nightmare and monk relics required dungeon tokens to get? Potentially more than the runes. 

[Acheron.1580]

21 minutes ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

You don't need the expansion to get a scholar relic. It'll be what they call a 'core relic'. It's already available, the only price tag is the one in the trading post. If the thing you're actually bemoaning is having to go to the trading post or craft it, then all I can respond with is "Yes and?"

I'll have to repeat it just because I find it funny that this is seen as some heinous injustice: You will walk to the trading post. You will buy your relic for 50 silver and you will like it. 

In fact what I'd find even funnier is, you know how two of the meta runesets in PvE are from dungeons? What if nightmare and monk relics required dungeon tokens to get? Potentially more than the runes. 

Sure, let's talk about that too. If you want the LEGENDARY RELIC which is the point of THIS DISCUSSION, you will most certainly need the expansion because it will include expansion relics in it. Which means that you have to also spend real money in order to get back what you lost.

Again you don't even know what the discussion is about.

Which, for the record, is they are taking an already existing mechanic (one that has been part of the game since the beginning), separating into 2 parts with no inherent reason, then making the players buy it back, both in requiring spending real money and in game currencies and also resulting in the runes themselves having less value. It has virtually nothing to do with the cost of relics at all, and everything to do with the decrease in value from what people have already spent making, and hiding behind a real money paywall.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Acheron.1580

[Omega.6801]

1 minute ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Sure, let's talk about that too. If you want the LEGENDARY RELIC which is the point of THIS DISCUSSION, you will most certainly need the expansion because it will include expansion relics in it. Which means that you have to also spend real money in order to get back what you lost.

Again you don't even know what the discussion is about.

Well there are more points to discuss:

1) The legendary relic won't be available on release. So for however long it will take ANet to release it, legendary functionality will be lost. Also: we don't know when it will be released. Sure "at some point in 2024" is a good start and something you can put in a PR-speechbubble, but will it happen? Are we talking 6 or 9 months? What if the release gets delayed for some reason? Wouldn't be a first.
2) It sets a sad precedent. ANet can basically devalue everything you woked for by removing parts of an item and moving it to a new slot. SotO will remove parts of runes and move it to the relics. Next expansion might remove stats from your armor and move it to belts, the expansion after that may remove functionality from sigils and move it to toerings. ANet has been one of the few companies that didn't do this kind of thing to push expansions, at least so far.

[Acheron.1580]

I don't like slippery slope arguments, I genuinely think they were told to come up with new mechanics, and just completely forgot about legendary runes in the process, which is saying something else that isn't terribly positive. That being said, I don't disagree that if it can happen here, that it might happen somewhere else too. Maybe not so extreme as pulling stats from X and making up new things just to create vertical progression (something GW2 was supposed to pride itself on avoiding), but they've demonstrated for over a year with their balance updates and now this that they don't really consider player feedback, and this will probably go live and they will just hope it blows over by the time their next "expansion" is ready to be rolled sold. Realistically the relics could have been a new thing by themselves entirely and the devs just overstepped without considering how it would impact the game as a whole.

As a company it does create a rift of trust between the developers and the players (particularly when dev chatter outside the forums pops up that demonstrates their motivations for specific changes).

Edited August 7, 2023 by Acheron.1580

[Polar.8634]

well i prepurchased expansion but will play bg3 at least untill lege relic release. i feel totally unneded to grind for relics while i have lege runes

[Excursion.9752]

Blizzard was just recently put through the ringer for a bad patch. I think anet may be doing a similar move but with relics.  It really is time for game makers to actually listen to their players and not remove functionality they once had.  Times have changed and people have options. So many games to play out there. Do not give people a reason to go try them. They may never come back. 

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 minutes ago, Excursion.9752 said:

Blizzard was just recently put through the ringer for a bad patch. I think anet may be doing a similar move but with relics.  It really is time for game makers to actually listen to their players and not remove functionality they once had.  Times have changed and people have options. So many games to play out there. Do not give people a reason to go try them. They may never come back. 

 

 

My friend keeps trying to get me to play FF14. They've made a large portion of the game F2P.

[idpersona.3810]

2 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

In fact what I'd find even funnier is, you know how two of the meta runesets in PvE are from dungeons? What if nightmare and monk relics required dungeon tokens to get? Potentially more than the runes. 

This scenario is likely solved with the relic box every 60+ character is going to get. That's kind of the whole point of it.

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

I think the Legendary Runes are considered Niche by a lot of player. Therefor they MASSIVELY downplay the loss of functionality.
What makes for example Rune of the Scholar so expensive? The 6th tier bonus. NOTHING else. Got those? They will MASSIVELY devaluate after release as well. Ever thought about that?

I wonder how things would go if tomorrow they say "ow yeah your legendary weapons? Well you know how you can freely swap stats? You won't be able to for 6 months after launch and then we introduce a new way to get that functionality back and you get progress for what you already own.

I think the outcry would be heard on the ISS.

As I said before, yes the relic system gives more freedom of builds. True. But that does not bypass the fact that I now from "never have to buy upgrades ever again" to "I need to get these Relics" and the STUPID fact that I have to way SEVERAL UPDATES before I can even get the Legendary Relic.

Give it AT LAUNCH!!
I don't mind crafting for it... BUT I DO MIND WAITING A LONG TIME TO GET BACK WHAT YOU STOLE FROM ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am simply going to ignore the ENTIRE Relic system untill Legendary Relic is released.

For as far as I am concerned, this whole thing was an Emergency patch. We have to wait for Legendary Relic release because they FORGOT about Legendary Runes and therefor cannot offer it at release.

What an absolute joke!

If anything, then wait with relic release untill you are READY to FIX your error and can release the legendary Relic simultaniously!

Untill I know I can get back what I have RIGHT now, I cannot get excited over this Expansion. This whole Legendary Relic things feels "ow sh... we F...ed up we need something... let them wait looooooooong cause we need time.... " 

LEGENDARY RELIC AT RELICS RELEASE!

if not: POSTPONE the Relic system. But stop messing with us.

We KNOW what is going on, we KNOW this was not planned, we KNOW you "forgot" about the Legendary Runes.

What's next... Legendary Sigils get devaluated? 
DONT EVEN DARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I am mad, MOSTLY because they cannot ADMIT they forgot about us Legendary Rune Owners. The whole thing CLEARLY shows that, but not a single "Oops, sorry" in the ENTIRE blogpost

[Emberheart.8426]

40 minutes ago, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

I think the Legendary Runes are considered Niche by a lot of player. Therefor they MASSIVELY downplay the loss of functionality.
What makes for example Rune of the Scholar so expensive? The 6th tier bonus. NOTHING else. Got those? They will MASSIVELY devaluate after release as well. Ever thought about that?

I wonder how things would go if tomorrow they say "ow yeah your legendary weapons? Well you know how you can freely swap stats? You won't be able to for 6 months after launch and then we introduce a new way to get that functionality back and you get progress for what you already own.

I think the outcry would be heard on the ISS.

As I said before, yes the relic system gives more freedom of builds. True. But that does not bypass the fact that I now from "never have to buy upgrades ever again" to "I need to get these Relics" and the STUPID fact that I have to way SEVERAL UPDATES before I can even get the Legendary Relic.

Give it AT LAUNCH!!
I don't mind crafting for it... BUT I DO MIND WAITING A LONG TIME TO GET BACK WHAT YOU STOLE FROM ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am simply going to ignore the ENTIRE Relic system untill Legendary Relic is released.

For as far as I am concerned, this whole thing was an Emergency patch. We have to wait for Legendary Relic release because they FORGOT about Legendary Runes and therefor cannot offer it at release.

What an absolute joke!

If anything, then wait with relic release untill you are READY to FIX your error and can release the legendary Relic simultaniously!

Untill I know I can get back what I have RIGHT now, I cannot get excited over this Expansion. This whole Legendary Relic things feels "ow sh... we F...ed up we need something... let them wait looooooooong cause we need time.... " 

LEGENDARY RELIC AT RELICS RELEASE!

if not: POSTPONE the Relic system. But stop messing with us.

We KNOW what is going on, we KNOW this was not planned, we KNOW you "forgot" about the Legendary Runes.

What's next... Legendary Sigils get devaluated? 
DONT EVEN DARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I am mad, MOSTLY because they cannot ADMIT they forgot about us Legendary Rune Owners. The whole thing CLEARLY shows that, but not a single "Oops, sorry" in the ENTIRE blogpost

Actually no... The % damage boost on the scholar rune is the worst one out of all damage boosts on the runes. It's the stats that make the rune so good. Your argument falls apart from the first sentence. Most of the current rune bonuses are really not as good as you think they are and many of the "bonuses" are actually stats that will remain on the runes, such as movement speed, torment duration, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, there are some runes that are taken for their bonus and in those cases what is taken away is substantial. However, those are a minority.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Emberheart.8426

[Healix.5819]

36 minutes ago, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

Yes I am mad, MOSTLY because they cannot ADMIT they forgot about us Legendary Rune Owners. The whole thing CLEARLY shows that, but not a single "Oops, sorry" in the ENTIRE blogpost

They probably just don't see it as a problem. This isn't the first time they've changed the rune bonuses and if they had made the change a year ago like they normally would have in preparation for a change like this, there would have been practically no complaints about relics. They're not just moving the bonus to relics, they're replacing boons with stats, then creating relics that have a similar name, but aren't the same bonuses.

Considering how many ways relics could have been implemented without causing any problems, they probably wanted people to complain. If they give legendary relics now, they can change how legendaries work - they will only have access to core stats and all future stat additions will need to be unlocked.

[Acheron.1580]

31 minutes ago, Emberheart.8426 said:

Actually no... The % damage boost on the scholar rune is the worst one out of all the runes. It's the stats that make the rune so good. Your argument falls apart from the first sentence. Most of the current rune bonuses are really not as good as you think they are and many of the "bonuses" are actually stats that will remain on the runes, such as movement speed, torment duration, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, there are some runes that are taken for their bonus and in those cases what is taken away is substantial. However, those are a minority.

The argument that Scholar runes will devalue doesn't fall apart though. Assuming Scholar didn't have the ferocity then yes I 100% agree that people would use ogre instead because 1% less damage but without conditions are great. But when those 2 runes both lose their 6 piece and ogre gets stats of its own, scholar will absolutely go down in value.  Currently Scholar technically has 2 6 piece bonuses with the bonus stats and the bonus strike damage, and losing one of them is going to affect the desirability of it. There are also so so so many junk bloat runes in the game that I doubt they will ever revisit (that's a lot of work which is why I think they are just leaving them all in), and it's not like those are going to increase in value with the changes. Overall we should see a decrease in value for the most expensive runes and probably a slight uptick of side-grade rune value on the tp.

As for the condi damage runes, they probably won't change drastically unless nightmare runes get some love, like ditching the fear duration for something that benefits all condi users. If that became more condition duration or damage I think we'd be seeing that become more meta again (which can't increase in value because it can't be traded, but would cause all of the other condition damage options runes to go down).

Honestly, rather than delay the release of the relic system just 180 the choice to remove the 6 piece bonuses. Make relics all about utility, don't give them the current rune 6 pieces. Make it actually its own thing. That is the straight up easiest solution, you wouldn't need to deal with this legendary rune compensation garbage, it wouldn't affect anyone at launch, just give it non-damage options that help players find a bit more survivability or boon granting or whatever that fits their playstyle.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Acheron.1580

[Therac.6431]

Looks like "give us legendary armor set because we have a full ascended set" when HoT release

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, Healix.5819 said:

Considering how many ways relics could have been implemented without causing any problems, they probably wanted people to complain. If they give legendary relics now, they can change how legendaries work - they will only have access to core stats and all future stat additions will need to be unlocked.

One of the issues behind the negative response to Relic change is exactly Anet trying to change how Legendaries work, and what they offer (or rather, what they will no longer offer).

Yes, one of the reasons why this is even happening is that apparently Anet does not like the idea of Legendary owners not having to grind for new gear every expansion anymore. And they'd like to kill that functionality somehow - or at least open the door for themselves to keep removing it piecemeal in the future whenever they might find it convenient.

[Acheron.1580]

2 minutes ago, KarlMarx.5910 said:

Looks like "give us legendary armor set because we have a full ascended set" when HoT release

Textbook false equivalency argument, good job.

[Therac.6431]

14 minutes ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Textbook false equivalency argument, good job.

Relics and Runes = 0 equivalency

New system, new journey, run to conquer and stop trying find shortcuts to reach a goal that's not implemented yet

[Acheron.1580]

2 minutes ago, KarlMarx.5910 said:

Relics and Runes = 0 equivalency

New system, new journey, run to conquer and stop trying find shortcuts to reach a goal that's not implemented yet

New system, using old mechanics removed from existing legendary runes. Asking for Legendary Relics to be available on release would still be working towards that goal, rather than asking for a free handout. I swear people who are putting forward "new ideas" in this post haven't read a kitten thing and are just blurting out whatever comes to mind because they read "relic" in the title and skipped to the end to add their 2 cents. If relics had been their own thing entirely it never would have even been a discussion.

[vandrefalk.6823]

On 8/9/2023 at 12:18 AM, Acheron.1580 said:

New system, using old mechanics removed from existing legendary runes. Asking for Legendary Relics to be available on release would still be working towards that goal, rather than asking for a free handout. I swear people who are putting forward "new ideas" in this post haven't read a kitten thing and are just blurting out whatever comes to mind because they read "relic" in the title and skipped to the end to add their 2 cents. If relics had been their own thing entirely it never would have even been a discussion.

But relics and in turn the Legendary Relic will introduce something new; namely the option to choose an arbitrary bonus effect previously tied to using 6 of the same runes.

So, in terms of owners of Legendary Runes stating they are losing functionalty, yes, the relic will have to be acquired now, and probably a few more since the free selection of 3 relics won't cover all effects people will want on one account.

But it's not like owners of Legendary Runes have had the same functionality that future owners of Legendary Runes AND Relics will have. Existing Legendary Rune owners cannot change that 6th bonus effect when they choose 6 runes.

So, if Anet had been smart, they would have made an item which duplicated today's effect, say, a Legendary Rune Relic (which copies the same bonus effect for using 6 runes as today, e.g. the relic's bonus effect would be "increase strike damage by 5% while your health is above 90%." if you made your 6 Legendary Runes 'Rune of the Scholar', or say, "grant Swiftness to nearby allies for 10 seconds after using a healing skill.", if you made your 6 Legendary Runes 'Rune of the Centaur'.

There's no reason owners of Legendary Runes should be given a Legendary Relic, which will give you even more freedom of choice than you currently have, so being given significant progress to making it is sufficient.

[Acheron.1580]

1 hour ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

But relics and in turn the Legendary Relic will introduce something new; namely the option to choose an arbitrary bonus effect previously tied to using 6 of the same runes.

So, in terms of owners of Legendary Runes stating they are losing functionalty, yes, the relic will have to be acquired now, and probably a few more since the free selection of 3 relics won't cover all effects people will want on one account.

But it's not like owners of Legendary Runes have had the same functionality that future owners of Legendary Runes AND Relics will have. Existing Legendary Rune owners cannot change that 6th bonus effect when they choose 6 runes.

So, if Anet had been smart, they would have made an item which duplicated today's effect, say, a Legendary Rune Relic (which copies the same bonus effect for using 6 runes as today, e.g. the relic's bonus effect would be "increase strike damage by 5% while your health is above 90%." if you made your 6 Legendary Runes 'Rune of the Scholar', or say, "grant Swiftness to nearby allies for 10 seconds after using a healing skill.", if you made your 6 Legendary Runes 'Rune of the Centaur'.

There's no reason owners of Legendary Runes should be given a Legendary Relic, which will give you even more freedom of choice than you currently have, so being given significant progress to making it is sufficient.

I'm genuinely so tired of people not reading all the thread and having to retype everything that you are getting the abridged version. Relics are a new slot, with new capabilities, but can you really consider it something new if it is recycling old benefits, that you now have to reacquire? Effectively all of these new relic bonuses could have also just been rune 6 pieces on some of the unused runes, but I think deep down even Anet knows that wouldn't make them be used because of "the meta". So now we get a new slot that is going to have as much bloat, until people settle into what the meta relics are.

By separating the 6 piece, you've added no value to runes at all, so all of those unused runes are going to basically continue to be garbage bloat. How that also devalues runes I've mentioned more than once, and is in this thread as well if you care to read. I had ideas when they had announced it that they were going to clean up runes and make build diversity in runes more interesting but since they have mentioned they are leaving all of them in, with different 6 piece bonuses it feels like they just wanted to add a new slot, didn't have enough ideas to justify it and ripped it off of runes, completely forgetting about legendary runes in the process until it was brought up in the forums (that much I guarantee because they had no answer for it and it took them weeks to get around to "addressing it" with a big nothing sandwich).

So on to your argument that Runes + Relic offers the same value as current runes (which again is just an argument that runes are less in value since you basically need to add something else to return it to it's current state), let's assume that scholar runes + scholar relic becomes the meta for power (unlikely because scholar's condition for bonus damage was kinda meh but still). Basically you are saying they put in a new mechanic, and separated out a part of runes to resell it back to you with no added benefit to the game or build designs whatsoever. Even if that isn't the case, down the line we are going to have meta relics and so in general the whole slot isn't necessary, because instead of trying to make it a playstyle enhancer it's just another dps "seasoning", except it's something you used to just have. So what happens if the BiS meta relic is a core relic? There will be complaints that they never should have separated it in the first place. What happens if the BiS meta relic is expansion only? People will complain that it's pay to win since you will be forced to buy the expansion to have access to it.

Whether people deserve a "free" legendary relic is very up for debate, and I don't disagree that having to put in some work isn't the worst but "significant progress" is a buzz term that answers literally nothing about what that progress is, and we are waiting anywhere form 6 to 18 months before we even get a chance to get to it. So we have no idea what the compensation is, or when we will even be able to exercise it.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Acheron.1580

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

But relics and in turn the Legendary Relic will introduce something new; namely the option to choose an arbitrary bonus effect previously tied to using 6 of the same runes.

Precisely. They are asking us to pay/work for an option to choose an arbitrary bonus effect we've already had before. After first taking that bonus away.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[troy.3257]

No I want my  7 legendary runes that I worked my kitten off to craft. Make the relics a option like gems  or that other crap everyone vendors or throws in mystic toilet.

[vandrefalk.6823]

54 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Precisely. They are asking us to pay/work for an option to choose an arbitrary bonus effect we've already had before. After first taking that bonus away.

No, it isn't arbitrary today, today you get the one that comes from choosing 6 runes from the same set. You can't for example get the bonus effect of Monk set of you make your legendary runes the Scholar set. You only get 1 fixed bonus effect to go with your selected rune set.