Math comparing old and new dailys

[Cyninja.2954]

Thanks for doing the math, someone did it on reddit yesterday too. Was amazing to see how fast people accepted the new system when shown that it actually rewarded them MORE loot (significantly more at that) instead of just repeating misinformed claims of loot nerfs.

Yes, just logging in will get you less loot than before. This sucks especially for inactive players which still hang around. This also sucks for the players with 10, 20, 50, 100 or even 400 accounts (though at those numbers you still get massive amounts of loot). In both cases one might call into question if this was good for the game.

The current system needs some slight touch ups, for example give some alternatives to choose from would go a long way.

Otherwise it is a significant step up for ACTIVE players of the game, and those are the ones the developers should focus on imo.

[Ganogati.8963]

I do hope they tweak the PvE daily system a little bit. I've never been to Cantha, and got what looked like a Cantha daily to go do a mini dungeon I've never heard of before. lol

[Cernoch.8524]

22 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said:

The 30 AA 1 gold has no cap. You can buy as many as you want. The 6 AA is limited to 90.

oh, thanks. I thought we can get only one since there is not any number. Makes sense now.

[Sylvyn.4750]

Yes, the new system is very rewarding, but with the lack of choice on dailies, not being able to complete one daily tanks your AA earnings for that category...finishing 2 dailies (beyond the login) nets 25 AA versus 65 AA for finishing all 3.

[Sjentra.3409]

If you didn't buy sota there isn't really a whole lot in the wizards vault. Even the t6 mats are sota only.

Also i doubt the next season is going to be 77 days long; it'll probably be more like 90 since that's an actual quarter.

[sos.6510]

4 hours ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

You are saying that the mystic clovers are 20 compared to 14. But assuming it sticks at 77 days, you are getting 3/4 of the next 7 clovers from the third end of month chest under the old system. You've counted that as being nothing, when it should be counted as at least 5 (it's 5.25, officially). Which means that for those people focused on clovers, the new system is less than one clover better than the old passive system over a nearly 3 month period.

If that's what ANET meant when they said they wanted playing to be more rewarding that just logging in, then I'd like some of what they're smoking, please.

I did think about that but I didn't include it cause we have no way to know what the next season will have/how long it will last.

But assuming it's always 77 days and 20 clovers, we now have 0.2597 (20/77) clover per day compared to the old 0.25 (7/28).

Still a ever so slightly buff in the long run 😄

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Thanks for doing the math, someone did it on reddit yesterday too. Was amazing to see how fast people accepted the new system when shown that it actually rewarded them MORE loot (significantly more at that) instead of just repeating misinformed claims of loot nerfs.

Yes, just logging in will get you less loot than before. This sucks especially for inactive players which still hang around. This also sucks for the players with 10, 20, 50, 100 or even 400 accounts (though at those numbers you still get massive amounts of loot). In both cases one might call into question if this was good for the game.

The current system needs some slight touch ups, for example give some alternatives to choose from would go a long way.

Otherwise it is a significant step up for ACTIVE players of the game, and those are the ones the developers should focus on imo.

Yeah, but for MMOS concurrent users is an important statistic. The multiple account holders that end up logging in on far fewer accounts, or any at all, will push that number down.

[idpersona.3810]

8 hours ago, sos.6510 said:

Y'all a quick to cry about the loss of the daily login before you even try to compare it, so here it is.

A "season" is 11 weeks/77 days. We will be comparing it to 77 old dailies and 2 full login track+21 days (28+28+21 days)

- Old system :
154 gold 
231 spirit shards
54 mystic coins
95 laurels
36 tome of knowledge
6 transmutation charge
3 celebration booster
4 black lion rng item
231 chests corresponding to the daily you did (reward track potion/mats you collected, etc)

Adding in the final login chest, depending on your choice
If you take laurels, it's bumped to 135
If you take tomes, it's bumped to 48
If you take ascended stuff, 2 vision crystal and 2 to 4 random ascended mats
If you take legendary stuff, 16 obsidian shards and 14 mystic clover

 

- New system :
Without spending astral acclaim
77 gold
110 laurels
11 tome of knowledge
11 celebration booster
And a total of 15095 14825 astral acclaim (77 x 65 + 11 x 770 + 1350) [Edited math mistake]

Now with said astral acclaims, let's start with the choices that correspond to the old daily (aa is short for astral acclaim here)
1500 aa for 150 laurels, totaling 260 laurels. That is 165 more, 125 if you took the laurel chest on the old daily login
1200 aa for 20 mystic clover. That is 6 more (if you took the leg chest)
1000 aa for 20 obsidian shards. That is 4 more (if you took the leg chest)
600 aa for 4 vision crystal. That is 2 more (if you took the ascended chest)
540 aa for 60 mystic coins. That is 6 more
540 aa for 90 golds, totaling 167. That is 13 more
280 aa for 35 tome of knowledge, totaling 46. That is 10 more, 2 less if you took the tome chest
240 aa for 30 transmutation charges. That is 24 more
There are no spirit shards, random ascended mat, or rewards track potions/mats you collected. Ascended mats are offset by the fact you can buy full ascended piece

And with that we're still left with 8925 aa to spend. If you don't want the rest, congrats, you can grab either 223 T5 mats bag, or 297 additional golds.
But let's look at the rest.

Starting with skins, 2525 aa total cost (I'm not sure if the weapon is a one time or infinite buying so i'm gonna go with one time for now)
250 for the emote, 1125 for the 3 sanctified armors, 150 for the weaon, 1000 for the griffon
We still have 6400 so let's keep going

1000 for the legendary kit (that is stupidly worth considering it gives you a precursor, it's gift, and a choice of gift of power or magic)
2000 for both essence of gold (do not pick it. It's useless, period. But let's count it for now as it was technically a thing in the old daily login)
1350 for all the archetype slots augment (these would cost 1100 gems)
1800 for all the ascended pieces (3 armor and a weapon)
 

Total 6250, we still have 150, and the things left are
950 aa for the 10 revive orbs
420 aa for the 12 amelioration extractor (both these and the revive orbs technically offset the 4 black lion rng box, not convinced)
340 aa for the 30 heavy crafting bags
300 aa for the 15 masteries chest

- Closing

This is not a white knighting post, a lot of the critics are quite valid, I wouldn't mind seeing more choice in the dailies or a reroll button, and I also will greatly miss the reward track potions.

But stop for a moment and realize that the baseline system is 100% more rewarding (unless you're a pvp only player than yeah the reward track loss is sad)
This is not a system that shipped and immediatly is in need of a whole rework.
All we'd need would be more dailies to have options (2 would be a good start), reward track potion in the aa shop, and maybe sync dailies between players so we can play together.

So while it is good to see the potential of the new system, it will not work out that way for most players. And, I think, that's part of why so many people have issues with the Vault (as it is currently implemented). If Anet wants a maximum of 3 dailies to be done to be rewarded, then just unlock all of the potential dailies for a given type when it's picked. If I pick PvE only, for example, then show me the PvE tasks from Core, Hot, PoF, EoD and SotO and I can choose which I want to do. We already know they're in the game since various accounts are getting different lists. Then just reward the first 3 done.

That solution also fixes a lot of the initial premise of your numbers. You are combining old log in rewards plus dailies to compare to the current setup. But the time to complete tasks is wildly different. I used to be able to log in and get my dailies done in 5-10 minutes by mixing PvE and WvW tasks, chosen from the pool of 6. Now, if I choose both as options, I have to complete all 3 assigned which could (likely) take much more time to complete (I chose just PvE to limit the risk of choices since I knew the issues in advance). None of this matters if I have infinite time. It very much matters if I only have a few minutes to play some days. So for plenty of players, the new system is a direct downgrade because they will never consistently accomplish all daily/weekly/special tasks.

I think the Vault system can work. I think it can work really well with just a few changes. Right now it's kind of garbage.

[Thelgar.7214]

7 hours ago, sos.6510 said:

On god y'all are crying so loud whenever you're asked to play the game I'm astonished you haven't moved on to another game.

There are more objectives, yes. There are, wild I know, more rewards.

As I said before, skip your dailies, just do your weeklies on the weekend, and you'll have just as much stuff. But now you have more goals, and more rewards to go with it.

But sure, keep whining, it won't make your logic more tangible.

 

I'm comparing the entire old system that got removed to the entire new system that got added. You wanna compare daily to daily ? Sure, let's go

5005 astral acclaim, that is enough to get more than what you would with the old system, just don't grab all 30 transmutation charges, or all vision crystal, or anything really it's your choice. You happy now ? I compared 3 old daily to 3 new daily, and the new system is still more rewarding.

Your logic fails because people play a game to have fun. The weeklies I have left this week are: 

Escort 10 Allied Supply Caravans to Their Destinations in World vs. World

Defend 10 World vs. World Objectives

Complete the Dark Revelry Jumping Puzzle

Complete the Obsidian Sanctum Jumping Puzzle in the Obsidian Sanctum Map

By your "logic" I should log in and do these on the weekend. By actual logic, since these suck and I have no interest in them, the last thing I should be doing on my weekend is these things. So these things are automatically out of any realistic calculation of what I get from the new system.

If you spend your weekends doing things that suck on purpose for a game, you have a sad, miserable, life with no better options. So I'm somewhat understanding of your need to lash out at people for criticizing your bad use math to support your argument. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Thelgar.7214
Correcting by bad use of spelling - pad to bad.

[Tev.8345]

5 hours ago, Swoo.5079 said:

I havent done any PvP since expansion (travelling so just some wvw) but according to the patch notes the spvp rrank up chests will be dropping instant reward track once you rank 30.

• Instant reward track progress granted through the WvW skirmish reward track has been increased.
• Instant reward track progress has been added to PvP rank-up chests, starting at rank 30.

 

Yea, so they did not remove 100% rewards from PvP dailies, just 90%. My point was that the previous system incentivized people to try pvp, new one does not.

[sos.6510]

1 hour ago, Thelgar.7214 said:

If you spend your weekends doing things that suck on purpose for a game, you have a sad, miserable, life with no better options. So I'm somewhat understanding of your need to lash out at people for criticizing your bad use math to support your argument. 

Fun fact, I actually played like 20 hours of gw2 in the last two months, and it was because I got a friend into it. 

If you find WvW weekly unfun, maybe don't pick WvW then ? But even ignoring that, my point was never that "the new dailies and weekly are faster and more fun to engage with"
I even said that these area could use improvement

I posted the math because the forum was already flooded with people begging for an entire removal of the vault system, saying it was less rewarding cause 1 gold per dailies etc, so I just wanted to share the actual data. I'm not arguing with people wanting to improve the vault, I'm arguing with people wanting the vault gone and the old dailies back.

By the way, if you have no interest in doing the weeklies you got left, don't do them, you're still getting more reward than the old system in the end. 

[Thelgar.7214]

1 hour ago, sos.6510 said:

Fun fact, I actually played like 20 hours of gw2 in the last two months, and it was because I got a friend into it. 

If you find WvW weekly unfun, maybe don't pick WvW then ? But even ignoring that, my point was never that "the new dailies and weekly are faster and more fun to engage with"
I even said that these area could use improvement

I posted the math because the forum was already flooded with people begging for an entire removal of the vault system, saying it was less rewarding cause 1 gold per dailies etc, so I just wanted to share the actual data. I'm not arguing with people wanting to improve the vault, I'm arguing with people wanting the vault gone and the old dailies back.

By the way, if you have no interest in doing the weeklies you got left, don't do them, you're still getting more reward than the old system in the end. 

If I don't pick WvW, then I would have to do more things outside of WvW (which I enjoy and where I spend the majority of my time) to accomplish weeklies. Not spending time in a game mode I like to get rewards in another game mode is as illogical as doing weeklies I don't like on a weekend. The weekly WvW rewards are variations of things I don't do if I play 20 hours of WvW in a week (jumping puzzle and yak escorts) and dumb-luck or sit-and-wait time sucks that (defend events) that you can finish triple Diamond and complete 6 WvW weekly achievements without hitting. 

You don't have the data to determine how much reward I get in the end. And your logic fails because your data is incomplete and misused. That's the biggest lie in what you're trying to push. If I have to spend more time in game doing things I don't enjoy to get the same amount of income, I'm losing the most important reward in the game - enjoyment. Because of the nature of the game, a certain amount of in-game income is necessary to support enjoying its features. Or, I would need to pay more money(gems to gold) for the same enjoyment I could receive before the change to make up the difference.

Doing things that suck, sucks, regardless of the income it generates. If the system can't generate equivalent income with the same time investment while providing the same level of enjoyment out of things done during the time invested, then it has gotten worse. 

[Stx.4857]

Thank you for making this post.  
 

Literally the new system is more rewarding.  The only players pissed about it are those who want easy rewards for zero effort.  If they increase your total options for daily quests from 4 to 5 or 6 it will be basically perfect.  

[idpersona.3810]

19 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

Literally the new system is more rewarding.  The only players pissed about it are those who want easy rewards for zero effort.  If they increase your total options for daily quests from 4 to 5 or 6 it will be basically perfect.  

The new system can be more rewarding. With ample time.

Previously the dailies did not take a lot of time and had an abundance of options. Adding in those additional factors, then the new system isn't better than the old. Obviously many players (most?) dislike the new system as it is currently implemented. And it isn't because all of those players "want easy rewards for zero effort."

[Sjentra.3409]

5 hours ago, sos.6510 said:

I did think about that but I didn't include it cause we have no way to know what the next season will have/how long it will last.

But assuming it's always 77 days and 20 clovers, we now have 0.2597 (20/77) clover per day compared to the old 0.25 (7/28).

Still a ever so slightly buff in the long run 😄

It's most likely going to be in quarters; so 4 a year; not 4.7 a year.
It's basically the same way festivals are done; they always start and end on Tuesdays.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

13 hours ago, jokke.6239 said:

I think this is almost a massive improvement, but as long as there is only 4 "choices" it will remain a step back

Fix this as soon as possible ArenaNet

While you're at it, add in the old dailies that took you out into the world

I agree.

All the old dailies are in there like jps, event completion, view a vista in certain region, and gathering. Except no go to specific map event completion. There is just A LOT of new dailies that are just mob killing, combos, and various salvaging/looting dailies now.

It does suck hard that we have less options to complete a daily set. The mist maze daily in Seitung took up to two hours to complete for some people. Also not everyone gets the same dailies!

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

1 hour ago, Stx.4857 said:

Thank you for making this post.  
 

Literally the new system is more rewarding.  The only players pissed about it are those who want easy rewards for zero effort.  If they increase your total options for daily quests from 4 to 5 or 6 it will be basically perfect.  

My only negative about the new system is that I can't decide to do a WvW daily that looks appealing and ignore a PvE daily that puts me in a map I want nothing to do with.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

10 hours ago, Ganogati.8963 said:

I do hope they tweak the PvE daily system a little bit. I've never been to Cantha, and got what looked like a Cantha daily to go do a mini dungeon I've never heard of before. lol

Dailies being based on what content you own rather than where you have been is a bit off. I have a friend who owns everything up to End of Dragons, but they are still doing HoT and have never touched those maps either.

[mariugo.4856]

Just give back the 12 choices for the daily and make the UI understandable, and booom the wizard's vault becomes from a messy system that forces you to do specific unwanted tasks to an upgrade of dailies

[jamesg.7128]

14 hours ago, Blanche Neige.7241 said:

I like the vault system. What i dislike is that I am given only 4 dailies and that I MUST do all of them.

I liked the old system better, when I had a choice between a selection of various dailies.

For me, the only thing they need to change in the new system is to give us a wider array of dailies tasks to choose from.

Yes, this is my only criticism as well. I logged in yesterday and for dailies I was given 10 salvages, break an enemy breakbar, and do a rift event.

I didn't have time to do all those 3. If there had been another choice or two I might have made it but the point is, that this design goes against the "play as you want" design that has been promoted since launch.

Not having a choice is not playing as you want.

Please Anet, instead of making it 3/3 randomly chosen tasks, make it 3/5 (or I'd settle for 3/4) so that we have that choice again.

Actually, I just had another idea. Another option could be a re-roll button that you can use once to roll another set of dailies. Not as good as choosing, but I'd be ok with that too.

[Sylvyn.4750]

33 minutes ago, jamesg.7128 said:

 

Actually, I just had another idea. Another option could be a re-roll button that you can use once to roll another set of dailies. Not as good as choosing, but I'd be ok with that too.

World of Tanks does this...you get 3 daily missions and you are allowed to reroll one of those every 4 hours if you have one you don't think you can complete, or wait 4 hours to reroll a second time if you still have one that is tough.   You keep the other missions that you did not reroll.. they don't all get rerolled. 

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

17 hours ago, sos.6510 said:

Y'all a quick to cry about the loss of the daily login before you even try to compare it, so here it is.

A "season" is 11 weeks/77 days. We will be comparing it to 77 old dailies and 2 full login track+21 days (28+28+21 days)

- Old system :
154 gold 
231 spirit shards
54 mystic coins
95 laurels
36 tome of knowledge
6 transmutation charge
3 celebration booster
4 black lion rng item
231 chests corresponding to the daily you did (reward track potion/mats you collected, etc)

Adding in the final login chest, depending on your choice
If you take laurels, it's bumped to 135
If you take tomes, it's bumped to 48
If you take ascended stuff, 2 vision crystal and 2 to 4 random ascended mats
If you take legendary stuff, 16 obsidian shards and 14 mystic clover

 

- New system :
Without spending astral acclaim
77 gold
110 laurels
11 tome of knowledge
11 celebration booster
And a total of 15095 14825 astral acclaim (77 x 65 + 11 x 770 + 1350) [Edited math mistake]

Now with said astral acclaims, let's start with the choices that correspond to the old daily (aa is short for astral acclaim here)
1500 aa for 150 laurels, totaling 260 laurels. That is 165 more, 125 if you took the laurel chest on the old daily login
1200 aa for 20 mystic clover. That is 6 more (if you took the leg chest)
1000 aa for 20 obsidian shards. That is 4 more (if you took the leg chest)
600 aa for 4 vision crystal. That is 2 more (if you took the ascended chest)
540 aa for 60 mystic coins. That is 6 more
540 aa for 90 golds, totaling 167. That is 13 more
280 aa for 35 tome of knowledge, totaling 46. That is 10 more, 2 less if you took the tome chest
240 aa for 30 transmutation charges. That is 24 more
There are no spirit shards, random ascended mat, or rewards track potions/mats you collected. Ascended mats are offset by the fact you can buy full ascended piece

And with that we're still left with 8925 aa to spend. If you don't want the rest, congrats, you can grab either 223 T5 mats bag, or 297 additional golds.
But let's look at the rest.

Starting with skins, 2525 aa total cost (I'm not sure if the weapon is a one time or infinite buying so i'm gonna go with one time for now)
250 for the emote, 1125 for the 3 sanctified armors, 150 for the weaon, 1000 for the griffon
We still have 6400 so let's keep going

1000 for the legendary kit (that is stupidly worth considering it gives you a precursor, it's gift, and a choice of gift of power or magic)
2000 for both essence of gold (do not pick it. It's useless, period. But let's count it for now as it was technically a thing in the old daily login)
1350 for all the archetype slots augment (these would cost 1100 gems)
1800 for all the ascended pieces (3 armor and a weapon)
 

Total 6250, we still have 150, and the things left are
950 aa for the 10 revive orbs
420 aa for the 12 amelioration extractor (both these and the revive orbs technically offset the 4 black lion rng box, not convinced)
340 aa for the 30 heavy crafting bags
300 aa for the 15 masteries chest

- Closing

This is not a white knighting post, a lot of the critics are quite valid, I wouldn't mind seeing more choice in the dailies or a reroll button, and I also will greatly miss the reward track potions.

But stop for a moment and realize that the baseline system is 100% more rewarding (unless you're a pvp only player than yeah the reward track loss is sad)
This is not a system that shipped and immediatly is in need of a whole rework.
All we'd need would be more dailies to have options (2 would be a good start), reward track potion in the aa shop, and maybe sync dailies between players so we can play together.

I have been meaning to respond to this thread all day to thank you for sharing this outline! I really appreciate you taking your time to create this and pass it on to the rest of the community.

[TheOldDuffer.7469]

The opening point of this thread is that the rewards are better with Wizard's Vault.  As a casual player I would argue that the cost of missing one daily task vs the cost of not getting the daily chest is just wrong imo.  Why is the daily astral acclaim almost doubled for completing all of these 'suggestions'?   What happens to the calculations if you only get half the daily / weekly chests - does Wizards Vault still come out ahead of daily login / daily tasks?  (its too late and I can't be arsed trying to get the maths right as I post this)

For casual players Wizards Vault objectives become less suggestions and more a proscribed list of things to get done to stay on top of the daily / weekly chest rewards.  Instead I would rather that the daily / weekly rewards are redistributed to the tasks themselves so that the daily / weekly chests are a much smaller cherry that you can take or leave as you like.

In some ways this thread has made me pay more attention to how the daily / weekly quests are chosen, in particular I was reminded that I can change the sort of quests that appear (just one play style is possible).  I've missed Wednesday's daily chest, and I'm not sure I'm going to get the first weekly chest because I didn't understand all the implications on Tuesday - my fault.

For all those who asked for more variety please add my voice to that call.  I will only have my preferred play style chosen until I'm not risking the daily / weekly chests on a play style I've little interest in getting good at.   The idea of having a cap in the astral acclaim for daily / weekly seems to be the most workable option that is also the most similar to how the previous daily rewards worked.

FOMO at its best. 

 

[idpersona.3810]

Oh...minor but now the mystic forge daily doesn't give a coin anymore. So just another small way where this is worse than before.

[idpersona.3810]

57 minutes ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

I have been meaning to respond to this thread all day to thank you for sharing this outline! I really appreciate you taking your time to create this and pass it on to the rest of the community.

The problem is that those numbers represent the top end of what's possible, with unlimited time to play. Most of us aren't going to end up anywhere near that at the end of the quarter.