Ranged/Melee Imbalance is a Fundamental Problem.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

If you’ve moved into melee range, how are you still getting the advantage of range?

Weird question ... if you aren't using your range weapon at range, obviously you aren't using your range advantage in that moment. That doesn't mean you don't have that advantage when you choose to use it.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[starlinvf.1358]

I think the whole thought process is wrong.  Should take inspiration from zombie games, or just looking at the more recent 40k games like Vermin/Dark tide and Space marine. 

The difference in engagement range matters, and different enemies exploit that.  Its the most easily translated of the concepts, since GW1 and HOT used it, to decent effect.  Smart enemy move sets is all it would take to control it.  

 

 

[Linnael.1069]

58 minutes ago, starlinvf.1358 said:

I think the whole thought process is wrong.  Should take inspiration from zombie games, or just looking at the more recent 40k games like Vermin/Dark tide and Space marine. 

The difference in engagement range matters, and different enemies exploit that.  Its the most easily translated of the concepts, since GW1 and HOT used it, to decent effect.  Smart enemy move sets is all it would take to control it.  

 

 

Few people remember this but the game used to have smarter AI. It would walk out of aoes and avoid stuff like hundred blades. Then everyone complained in the first beta weekend that it was too hard and the entire game was dumbed down before release. Smarter AI is possible but they don’t do it because they don’t think players want it.

[itspomf.9523]

What's funny about this thread is that almost no one is arguing the opposite:  being stuck in melee when an encounter switches to ranged (or worse, the target keeps teleporting around), and having to lose massive amounts of DPS to go running after it over and over.

Edited September 19, 2023 by itspomf.9523

[SeTect.5918]

34 minutes ago, itspomf.9523 said:

What's funny about this thread is that almost no one is arguing the opposite:  being stuck in melee when an encounter switches to ranged (or worse, the target keeps teleporting around), and having to lose massive amounts of DPS to go running after it over and over.

Sorry but i dont get it. How is that the opposite? 

I mean that is exactly what this topic is about. Being stuck in melee and running after the boss while ranged can just keep Shooting it when it teleports...

I would say a great example here is the "deepstone" fractal boss which teleports around a few times and the path is sometimes even blocked because of plates to the boss might be missing. Range weapons can still just shoot it.

Edited September 19, 2023 by SeTect.5918

[Gibson.4036]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Weird question ... if you aren't using your range weapon at range, obviously you aren't using your range advantage in that moment. That doesn't mean you don't have that advantage when you choose to use it.

 

 

Okay, so the range advantage is that you can move out, trading the boons for spacing at any point? So ranged weapons need to be weaker. Am I understanding?

How does that apply to professions that can weapon swap between a ranged and melee weapon? They can do stronger damage at melee, then swap out to range for distance, then swap back again. Do they need to have their melee weapons nerfed, too?

[peperoncino.2516]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

How does that apply to professions that can weapon swap between a ranged and melee weapon? They can do stronger damage at melee, then swap out to range for distance, then swap back again. Do they need to have their melee weapons nerfed, too?

you are thinking in a complete opposite direction here. having no ranged weaponswap is a drawback, right? as such, there should also be a reason, whatever it may be, to have such a drawback. utility, higher damage, or (copium) actually designing fights so noone really remains locked out of playing the game while others have no drawbacks.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

How does that apply to professions that can weapon swap between a ranged and melee weapon? They can do stronger damage at melee, then swap out to range for distance, then swap back again. Do they need to have their melee weapons nerfed, too?

How is this supposed to apply in any different way because of the swap? When you swap to a melee range, you're at melee range without the benefit of ranged weapon. When you swap to ranged weapon, you have the benefit of having that range now so the damage should be offset when compared to the melee weapon. The moment you swap the weapon, their pros and cons apply, that's... about it.

[LadyKitty.6120]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How is this supposed to apply in any different way because of the swap? When you swap to a melee range, you're at melee range without the benefit of ranged weapon. When you swap to ranged weapon, you have the benefit of having that range now so the damage should be offset when compared to the melee weapon. The moment you swap the weapon, their pros and cons apply, that's... about it.

Some builds don't have a strong enough ranged alternative to be worth swapping to and some melee builds need to use melee weapons in both weapon sets. For those, ranged weapon isn't an option.

Many melee builds also have increased mobility and some have built-in dodges and blocks that ranged builds don't have (for ex. rifle vs hammer mechanist) so in hands of a skilled player, they don't lose much DPS uptime and sometimes they even have more if they can for ex. evade-leap attack or use insta-cast block through the mechanic while ranged would need to dodge. (Deimos' pizza, for example) Even with spread mechanics, melee DPSers can often just dodge out and in to spread just enough or just stay on boss while ranged DPS and supports move. (common for ex. in Sunqua CM and Matt) Even Ankka's quaggans aren't a problem if their target notices them quick (they follow a random person) and knows how to deal with them. (there's 2 smart tactics depending on if you're melee or ranged) Though ofc there's some edge cases where none of that is possible for melee DPS. (Kanaxai as worst example) 

So, how would you determine how much full ranged build needs to be offset to not have too much advantage at fight with melee downtime but also not be too weak to become irrelevant for bosses you can full melee on?

Edited September 20, 2023 by LadyKitty.6120

[AliamRationem.5172]

20 minutes ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Some builds don't have a strong enough ranged alternative to be worth swapping to and some melee builds need to use melee weapons in both weapon sets. For those, ranged weapon isn't an option.

Many melee builds also have increased mobility and some have built-in dodges and blocks that ranged builds don't have (for ex. rifle vs hammer mechanist) so in hands of a skilled player, they don't lose much DPS uptime and sometimes they even have more if they can for ex. evade-leap attack or use insta-cast block through the mechanic while ranged would need to dodge. (Deimos' pizza, for example) Even with spread mechanics, melee DPSers can often just dodge out and in to spread just enough or just stay on boss while ranged DPS and supports move. (common for ex. in Sunqua CM and Matt) Though ofc there's some edge cases where none of that is possible for melee DPS. (Kanaxai as worst example) 

So, how would you determine how much full ranged build needs to be offset to not have too much advantage at fight with melee downtime but also not be too weak to become irrelevant for bosses you can full melee on?

Don't overthink it.  They just need to make it a factor in the power budget.  Ease of play, range, utility.  We've seen what happens when specs that have all of these things also have top tier DPS and it isn't pretty.  That's why they need to factor them in appropriately.

Edited September 20, 2023 by AliamRationem.5172

[peperoncino.2516]

20 minutes ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Some builds don't have a strong enough ranged alternative to be worth swapping

solved by either intoducing the mentioned alternative, or designing fights so that they are enjoyable regardless of if the prof has those alternatives. 

24 minutes ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Many melee builds also have increased mobility and some have built-in dodges and blocks so in hands of a skilled player, they don't lose much DPS uptime

while some dont, i.e sword ele who is severely punished for even trying a fancy attune evade. but the issue, again, is that for some reason many fights are balanced around having access to those tools.

20 minutes ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

So, how would you determine how much full ranged build needs to be offset to not have too much advantage

well there has to be some reason not to stack one over other, for the range and ranged weaponswap as of now is a definite advantage. be it plain more damage, versatility, or needed mobility, or easier to access utility - some advantage has to be there and it has to be clearly defined. imo its actually insane to think otherwise, there would be no reason to even consider bringing pure melee then.

[Obtena.7952]

16 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Okay, so the range advantage is that you can move out, trading the boons for spacing at any point? So ranged weapons need to be weaker. Am I understanding?

How does that apply to professions that can weapon swap between a ranged and melee weapon? They can do stronger damage at melee, then swap out to range for distance, then swap back again. Do they need to have their melee weapons nerfed, too?

More weird questions ... ranged advantage is a property of ranged weapons, not the professions that can use them. 

But since you are asking me: Do professions that can swap between ranged and melee weapons need their melee weapons nerfed because ranged weapons have the range advantage? I don't think they should; I don't see any logic that weapon DPS is balanced based on scenarios of weapon swapping.

How do you even think that's possible, considering all the combinations of weapons can be swapped with each other?

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Gibson.4036]

18 hours ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

you are thinking in a complete opposite direction here. having no ranged weaponswap is a drawback, right? as such, there should also be a reason, whatever it may be, to have such a drawback. utility, higher damage, or (copium) actually designing fights so noone really remains locked out of playing the game while others have no drawbacks.

I very much may be thinking in the wrong direction. I'm trying to understand.

So only builds that are exclusively melee will get stronger weapons?

I can see the "stronger melee because range has the advantage of positioning" in other games where there are melee classes and ranged classes, but I'm having trouble figuring out how you can make it work in GW2. If melee weapons are across the board stronger than ranged, then the profs that can weapon swap between the two get the best of both worlds. Is that figured into their power budget over professions that get stuck in melee or stuck with range?

[Gibson.4036]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

More weird questions ... ranged advantage is a property of ranged weapons, not the professions that can use them. 

But since you are asking me: Do professions that can swap between ranged and melee weapons need their melee weapons nerfed because ranged weapons have the range advantage? I don't think they should; I don't see any logic that weapon DPS is balanced based on scenarios of weapon swapping.

How do you even think that's possible, considering all the combinations of weapons can be swapped with each other?

 

Exactly, I don't see it's possible, which is why I'm trying to understand what the goal is.

Staff shouldn't be as strong, because it has the option of getting to a safe distance. Axe should be strong because it's up close. But St/Axe Mirage can have the benefits of both?

Sorry my questions are weird, but I'm trying to imagine the experience of playing every profession in a world where melee gets a bigger power budget than ranged across the board. Sucks to be an Ele, great to be a Mez.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Jzaku.9765]

58 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I very much may be thinking in the wrong direction. I'm trying to understand.

So only builds that are exclusively melee will get stronger weapons?

I can see the "stronger melee because range has the advantage of positioning" in other games where there are melee classes and ranged classes, but I'm having trouble figuring out how you can make it work in GW2. If melee weapons are across the board stronger than ranged, then the profs that can weapon swap between the two get the best of both worlds. Is that figured into their power budget over professions that get stuck in melee or stuck with range?

In this imaginary world where Ranged Weapons are (slightly) weaker than Melee Weapons by intentional design, the build you are talking about that weapon swaps between Melee and Ranged already paid the opportunity cost for not taking a second Melee Weapon set on their swap. Builds in this game rely on all your cooldowns to perform their role, including your weapon-swap set. You took a slightly worse-performing weapon to have the quality of life of being able to do Ranged damage. You could have taken double Melee weapon sets to do more damage. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Jzaku.9765

[Gibson.4036]

25 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

In this imaginary world where Ranged Weapons are (slightly) weaker than Melee Weapons by intentional design, the build you are talking about that weapon swaps between Melee and Ranged already paid the opportunity cost for not taking a second Melee Weapon set on their swap. Builds in this game rely on all your cooldowns to perform their role, including your weapon-swap set. You took a slightly worse-performing weapon to have the quality of life of being able to do Ranged damage. You could have taken double Melee weapon sets to do more damage. 

Okay, that makes sense. I hadn't thought about that. Much appreciated.

That would require access to two viable melee weapons of each damage type though, right?

Edited September 20, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[SeTect.5918]

34 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

In this imaginary world where Ranged Weapons are (slightly) weaker than Melee Weapons by intentional design, the build you are talking about that weapon swaps between Melee and Ranged already paid the opportunity cost for not taking a second Melee Weapon set on their swap. Builds in this game rely on all your cooldowns to perform their role, including your weapon-swap set. You took a slightly worse-performing weapon to have the quality of life of being able to do Ranged damage. You could have taken double Melee weapon sets to do more damage. 

This.

Lets say ranged weapons get an overall nerf of 10% dmg (just an example).
Having 1 melee and 1 ranged and both are similar strong:
Melee stays 100% of its dmg and ranged gets a 10% nerf so 90% of its dmg. Means 100 + 90 = 190 -> 190 / 2 = 95%
So you would basically deal 95% of your normal damage because your ranged weapon got a 10% nerf.
 

14 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

That would require access to two viable melee weapons of each damage type though, right?

Yes which is currently not the case. Some classes dont even have access to a single melee weapon for a specific damage type (Scourge and Engi dont have condi melee, well engi has mace but its useless with the confusion nerf so i dont count it because its nerfed to the level of uselessness where it would even be better to take sword even with full vipers gear even tho its a power weapon).
However some classes also only need 1 melee weapon for each damage type because they dont have weapon swap, which are engi and ele.

[Linnael.1069]

2 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Exactly, I don't see it's possible, which is why I'm trying to understand what the goal is.

Staff shouldn't be as strong, because it has the option of getting to a safe distance. Axe should be strong because it's up close. But St/Axe Mirage can have the benefits of both?

Sorry my questions are weird, but I'm trying to imagine the experience of playing every profession in a world where melee gets a bigger power budget than ranged across the board. Sucks to be an Ele, great to be a Mez.

You're still not grasping it. Nobody is saying "melee should get a bigger power budget". The suggestion is that "range should be factored into the power budget". Currently you could think of  ranged weapons having the same power budget as melee weapons, except as it is now they also have MORE free power on top of that because they have long range, not paid for in the budget.

The big advantage of long range should be accounted for in the power budget, not this extra thing stacked on top for no reason.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Exactly, I don't see it's possible, which is why I'm trying to understand what the goal is.

The goal of what? Are you implying you don't see why ranged weapons, with the intrinsic advantage of having range, tend to have that considered in their design/build power budget?

6 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Staff shouldn't be as strong, because it has the option of getting to a safe distance. Axe should be strong because it's up close. But St/Axe Mirage can have the benefits of both?

Sorry my questions are weird, but I'm trying to imagine the experience of playing every profession in a world where melee gets a bigger power budget than ranged across the board. Sucks to be an Ele, great to be a Mez.

Sure, I can think of a few reasons some combo can have the benefits of both:

1. because you can't benefit from each simultaneously. You have to make a choice and swap when it's advantageous to gain the benefit of either one (and there is a CD on the swap as well to make that a meaningful choice to make that swap)

2. it's generally FAIR because it works for everyone that way (but yes, it doesn't for people that don't have swap options and that's an even more complex consideration that seems to be compensated in other ways, or at least Anet tries to do so). 

I mean, it's weird to have to 'imagine' this bigger melee power budget and how it would work; you can actually play it to see for yourself. I would argue that Anet GENERALLY respects these typical ranged weapon design considerations in GW2. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Echostorm.9143]

You can nerf ranged weapons as soon as you make buffs and heals range 3k.  If we all have to stack and move as zerg balls in all game modes there isn't a point to nerfing range.

[AliamRationem.5172]

14 minutes ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

You can nerf ranged weapons as soon as you make buffs and heals range 3k.  If we all have to stack and move as zerg balls in all game modes there isn't a point to nerfing range.

In a world where GW2 didn't make the stupid decision to go non-trinity, presumably we would have that along with encounters designed with challenges for both melee and ranged classes to deal with.  Unfortunately, that didn't happen and as a consequence we tend to stack both for support and to control boss movement.  Of course, that gets boring, so mechanics were designed to force players to move around, which is where the ranged advantage comes into play.  With no challenges specific to range, it becomes purely an advantage in terms of DPS uptime when you're able to continue attacking when forced out of the pile while melee classes are not.

Was this really so difficult to understand?  I mean, it's not like this hasn't been said multiple times in the thread already.

[Gibson.4036]

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

I mean, it's weird to have to 'imagine' this bigger melee power budget and how it would work; you can actually play it to see for yourself. I would argue that Anet GENERALLY respects these typical ranged weapon design considerations in GW2. 

Jzaku helped with their cooldown explanation. I get it now.

Unfortunately, it doesn't feel like Anet generally respects these considerations recently, though they may have in the past.

Some of my favorite builds used to work this way, but no longer do. I used to St/Axe Mirage, but Solar didn't like Axe. I also have enjoyed condi renegade, but shortbow hits so hard it doesn't feel all that helpful to switch to mace most of the time. I mained staff daredevil for a good long time, and used P/P as my alternate set for when things got too heated, but staff stopped hitting like it used to.

I think my big disconnect was that I don't play content where I need optimized rotations, so I'm rarely weapon swapping just to get to the ideal  skills off cooldown. Jzaku was helpful identifying that's where the ranged/melee weapon swapper would be paying a price for not going melee/melee. This of course assumes access to two good melee weapons of the same damage type.

Thanks for sticking with me until it clicked!

[Cuks.8241]

I dont see it as a problem because this game doesnt really have tight dps checks like wow for example. Maybe HT Hc, dont know how tight that is but I think I saw clearing it with less than 10 players. So not really tight.

If we get tight checks (which we wont) coupled with mechanics that reduce melee uptime (which are common) this would be an issue. Now the difference is mostly irrelevant.

[Linnael.1069]

4 hours ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

You can nerf ranged weapons as soon as you make buffs and heals range 3k.  If we all have to stack and move as zerg balls in all game modes there isn't a point to nerfing range.

In all game modes??? It's not like that in raids or hardest strikes, so endgame PvE, not in PvP, not in WvW small-scale. Literally only easy-moderate PvE or zerg WvW is "zerg ball". People who say this really expose what kind of content they play.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

That was ANerf's vision while Jon Peters was still on the balance team. Somehow the idea that melee should deal more damage than ranged was thrown out of the window with his departure.