What's up with necro swords?

[GeraldBC.4927]

The new swords are basically just greatsword but faster. Why not fill up the one niche that was still open and make it a viable condi melee weapon to use for condi reapers?

[SleepyBat.9034]

4 minutes ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

Why not fill up the one niche that was still open and make it a viable condi melee weapon to use for condi reapers?

Why are people so obsessed with melee condi weapon? It's just worse than a ranged condition weapon.

[Curennos.9307]

4 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Why are people so obsessed with melee condi weapon? It's just worse than a ranged condition weapon.

We like to be optimistic and hope that not only will anet do it, but they'll balance it well.

Anyway, I'm holding out hope that necro dagger gets another looksie, if only to add bleeds to the AA and 2. It's been clunky and niche-less since ever, and it's very weird that the AA is melee, but the two skills are both ranged.

[SeTect.5918]

8 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Why are people so obsessed with melee condi weapon? It's just worse than a ranged condition weapon.

Projectile reflect/block. 

At least for wvw. Some builds have immense (actually broken) Projectile reflection uptime which can block like 60%+ of your projectiles. 

Thats a huge problem for some builds like condi engi or harbinger which have basically almost only projectile skills and these never got a condi melee. Engi could use mace for a while and then they nerfed confusion and mace became useless. Necro mainhand dagger is just bad for condi.

So actually they both have weapons that have the potential to be a condi melee, but these are simply bad balanced.

[AliamRationem.5172]

10 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Why are people so obsessed with melee condi weapon? It's just worse than a ranged condition weapon.

You're not wrong, but this forum really needs a smh emoji.

[Panda.1967]

11 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

The new swords are basically just greatsword but faster. Why not fill up the one niche that was still open and make it a viable condi melee weapon to use for condi reapers?

With how condi reaper works… swords are a very good weapon for them… and Greatsword despite being power weapon is a perfectly viable melee weapon for condi reaper as is… all you need for condi reaper is access to fear, blind, and chilled… which both greatsword and dual swords grant in spades…

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

The new swords are basically just greatsword but faster. Why not fill up the one niche that was still open and make it a viable condi melee weapon to use for condi reapers?

Scepter and Pistol are both viable melee condi weapons for a condi reaper.

In otherwords, you are assuming that some melee condi weapon would somehow be better than the existing condi choices, simply if it existed. Not sure how you came to that conclusion, especially given the performance of those existing weapons. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[AquaBR.9250]

Brah they are literally ranged, are greatswords ranged? am i loosing something?

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, AquaBR.9250 said:

Brah they are literally ranged, are greatswords ranged? am i loosing something?

People just mad that the game didn't do exactly what they wanted so they complain about anything to justify their complaint. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[BobbyT.7192]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

People just mad that the game didn't do exactly what they wanted so they complain about anything to justify their complaint. 

That's half the reason why I don't play as much anymore...... I know what I'm about.

[Yasai.3549]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:02 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You're not wrong, but this forum really needs a smh emoji.

🫨

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:41 AM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Why are people so obsessed with melee condi weapon? It's just worse than a ranged condition weapon.

Well even if you play ranged the game generally brings the melee to you whether you want it or not. Maybe condi is just so it synergizes with the gear on swap?

On 12/1/2023 at 3:47 PM, Curennos.9307 said:

Anyway, I'm holding out hope that necro dagger gets another looksie, if only to add bleeds to the AA and 2. It's been clunky and niche-less since ever, and it's very weird that the AA is melee, but the two skills are both ranged.

Honestly I've always liked the melee/range mix on MH dagger. Definitely +1 for the bleed on its skills though, it does need a little more output plus that fits with its Blood Magic linkage. And to be fair, the skills are pretty close range. 600 isn't much, making them easy to misjudge the distance or lose target lock from movement.

[Barraind.7324]

Whats up with them is that they're under-tuned.

[Batalix.2873]

On 12/1/2023 at 9:41 AM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Why are people so obsessed with melee condi weapon? It's just worse than a ranged condition weapon.

Variety, which in turn prevents the game from becoming streamlined into a bunch of non-choice and homogenized buildcraft.

People are so concerned with optimization, viability, and filling slots that they don't really seem to recognize how narrow the design is getting. So the kitten what if a condi melee weapon is inefficient: it is *different*.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Variety, which in turn prevents the game from becoming streamlined into a bunch of non-choice and homogenized buildcraft.

People are so concerned with optimization, viability, and filling slots that they don't really seem to recognize how narrow the design is getting. So the kitten what if a condi melee weapon is inefficient: it is *different*.

Except it's not different because ranged condi weapons are just melee condi weapons with more range. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Axl.8924]

On 12/2/2023 at 5:23 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Scepter and Pistol are both viable melee condi weapons for a condi reaper.

In otherwords, you are assuming that some melee condi weapon would somehow be better than the existing condi choices, simply if it existed. Not sure how you came to that conclusion, especially given the performance of those existing weapons. 

They(Arenanet) should look at the projectile blocks in the game to see if its balanced.Too much and it becomes overpowered too and then scourge and any projectile throwing class will have a better time.This game has a tendency when one class gets complained about or another, to throw on a bunch of classes a bunch of stuff that counters, making the game less enjoyable due tot hat one thing.From my memory multiple classes had projectyle blocks i know ele on tempest has projectile block i think guardian and warriors probably some form of revenant so yeah that might need to be looked at.

[Obtena.7952]

On 12/16/2023 at 4:34 AM, Axl.8924 said:

They(Arenanet) should look at the projectile blocks in the game to see if its balanced.Too much and it becomes overpowered too and then scourge and any projectile throwing class will have a better time.This game has a tendency when one class gets complained about or another, to throw on a bunch of classes a bunch of stuff that counters, making the game less enjoyable due tot hat one thing.From my memory multiple classes had projectyle blocks i know ele on tempest has projectile block i think guardian and warriors probably some form of revenant so yeah that might need to be looked at.

OK. Except Ranged vs. melee blocking has nothing to do with the fact that ranged weapons are also work as melee weapons though so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Seems like a pretty hard sell to claim a melee condi weapon is needed just because projectiles can be reflected if that's your intent. It obviously hasn't been a compelling reason thus far at least. It makes little sense to cherry pick ONE of dozens of factors  that affects balancing of different weapon categories to justify ... anything, much less the design of a new weapon. 

I definitely don't see swords getting some big shift to condi for ANY reason so the whole thread is rather questionable. It's just a ruse to complain about not getting a melee condi weapon by attempting to throw shade at the sword design and pretend melee condi is some obvious choice for swords.  

Edited December 18, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[XECOR.2814]

Dont be dumb, it fills the power ranged aoe niche which the class didnt had very well.

It just needs to be better with numbers and qol on animation speeds.

Edited December 22, 2023 by XECOR.2814

[Phyb.6704]

On 12/16/2023 at 1:34 AM, Axl.8924 said:

They(Arenanet) should look at the projectile blocks in the game to see if its balanced.Too much and it becomes overpowered too and then scourge and any projectile throwing class will have a better time.This game has a tendency when one class gets complained about or another, to throw on a bunch of classes a bunch of stuff that counters, making the game less enjoyable due tot hat one thing.From my memory multiple classes had projectyle blocks i know ele on tempest has projectile block i think guardian and warriors probably some form of revenant so yeah that might need to be looked at.

REvenant is the absolute worst pain for ranged.
Protective solace is a literal dome the ventari tablet projects that blocks all ranged for 20 sec and can just be recast after a global cooldown. It can be kept up infinite with 1 global cooldown pause every 20 sec. If any enamies cast ranged within the dome it does nothing. If an enemy shoots ranged at someone in the dome it is nulified once it enters the dome. It can be very fun to kitten people off with it in wvw when your shotting someone on a wall or being shot at from someone on a wall. You can either have the dome on you, others or even move the tablet on a blob of enemies. Tablet can not be damaged. Mind you its literally the only usefull spell when u go ventari lol

[Axl.8924]

5 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

REvenant is the absolute worst pain for ranged.
Protective solace is a literal dome the ventari tablet projects that blocks all ranged for 20 sec and can just be recast after a global cooldown. It can be kept up infinite with 1 global cooldown pause every 20 sec. If any enamies cast ranged within the dome it does nothing. If an enemy shoots ranged at someone in the dome it is nulified once it enters the dome. It can be very fun to kitten people off with it in wvw when your shotting someone on a wall or being shot at from someone on a wall. You can either have the dome on you, others or even move the tablet on a blob of enemies. Tablet can not be damaged. Mind you its literally the only usefull spell when u go ventari lol

Thing is arenanet's choice of how to nerf a class:
 

1:Destroy multiple things that weren't the problem first and then finally destroy what causes the problem leaving the class a mess and unenjoyable.

2:Make it even less fun by buffing that one thing that hard counters that class so that class gets hard countered by multiple classes too hard EG:Stealth and stuns and projectile blocks.

What happens after that? a class that once  was countered somewhat counters the class that counters necro hard because too many stuns invulns and spammable stealth.

Years and years arenanet has used this design to nerf a class by overbuffing one aspect to nerf another class Thief got weaker while other class got more mobility and hard hits to counter thief.Rangers got a mix of high mobility very good CC and ranged/melee damage allowing them to insta gib.

Overall there is just been too much power creep thief was kept in line when it was nerfed because they were forced to use their stealth to run away when they couldn't kill people and be a +1  but there are classes who had more stealth more speed you look at rangers who had speed+invulns plus hard combo attacks who could insta gib people mesmers had instakill from stealth in the past which is why the nerf crusade went so hard revenants were broken OP in the past themselves with spam plus they spit out boons nonstop being kitten.

I don't personally like the idea of hard counters where they hard counter so hard, it becomes irrelevant to even fight back.I am unsure if they can fix it, but i am concerned they hit into a rabbit hole they are stuck at now with so many classes and some getting ruined by years of power creep

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Axl.8924

[Ahlaradra.5837]

It is sometimes disheartening to see how all Necromancer discussions everywhere seem to center around whether x is good or bad for Reaper. No one wastes a syllable on the other specs and what could be good or bad for them. Like everything Anet does has to cater to Reaper and only Reaper.

[Zenith.7301]

On 12/1/2023 at 3:47 PM, Curennos.9307 said:

We like to be optimistic and hope that not only will anet do it, but they'll balance it well.

Anyway, I'm holding out hope that necro dagger gets another looksie, if only to add bleeds to the AA and 2. It's been clunky and niche-less since ever, and it's very weird that the AA is melee, but the two skills are both ranged.

What dagger needs to be is a support weapon alongside necro staff. Make them the boon+healing weapons and give proper healing to scourge for a vampiric scourge healing spec that isn't just a 3rd healer wannabe meme but not good to be a healer or boon support, just a safety barrier and rez bot. Just give dagger and staff healing and boons. Warhorn can be the support offhand, but insect swarm needs a serious revamp, it's terrible and Banshee's Wail is also really bad for a 20+ sec cd ability.

Quote

It is sometimes disheartening to see how all Necromancer discussions everywhere seem to center around whether x is good or bad for Reaper. No one wastes a syllable on the other specs and what could be good or bad for them. Like everything Anet does has to cater to Reaper and only Reaper.

Because Reaper has historically been the underserved spec in PvE. For most of GW2s history, necromancer has only existed as competitive condition scepter specs while the power specs were WvW memes and little more. People crave a death knight theme and reaper fit the bill.

Harbinger is unpopular because nobody thinks of a necromancer when you're spraying bullets with a gun or throwing wushu elixirs, so it's an even less popular spec on top of being made of glass by removing shroud but giving the necromancer none of the active defenses and powerful healing and blocks/evades that the other classes have.

Scourge thematically is a very well fleshed out spec and has performed well despite not in the support themed manner it was intended to, but rather as the premier condi dps spec.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Zenith.7301

[Phyb.6704]

5 hours ago, Ahlaradra.5837 said:

It is sometimes disheartening to see how all Necromancer discussions everywhere seem to center around whether x is good or bad for Reaper. No one wastes a syllable on the other specs and what could be good or bad for them. Like everything Anet does has to cater to Reaper and only Reaper.

Gw2 has a large focus on open world. Events, metas, ect. Reaper is debated to be the best class for self suvivability solo. Yes you can technically do better with a scourge + warior due to warriors high hp helping with larger barriers but reapers shroud is very good for survivability and as such very popular. 
Scourge is amazing with barrier but then you give up a ton of dmg. Reaper can still have a 2nd health bar and give up no dmg. Harbringer does not get the 2nd bar but gets more actual self healing if built focused on it. The problem is with the debuff to max hp.... you can get 1 hit even with all the self healing well reapers shroud stops you from being 1 hit. 
Remember that well the game has no tank having a 2nd health bar is very nice. Not having any dedicated way to hold agro to tank something does largely effect the priotization of the 2nd health bar reaper has. Well I do like barrier scourge it can honestly get a bit boring to play and as I said harbringer is vulnerable to getting 1-2 hit due to low hp max. 

 

because of this many just want reaper to do some better dps. I expected the swords to be a way to dump all the extra hp you have well you go between blood bank barriers and shroud. This would sacrifice that survivability for damage and balance out the class so it did not do tons of damage and also never die. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by ohericoseo.4316

[Ahlaradra.5837]

2 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

What dagger needs to be is a support weapon alongside necro staff. Make them the boon+healing weapons and give proper healing to scourge for a vampiric scourge healing spec that isn't just a 3rd healer wannabe meme but not good to be a healer or boon support, just a safety barrier and rez bot. Just give dagger and staff healing and boons. Warhorn can be the support offhand, but insect swarm needs a serious revamp, it's terrible and Banshee's Wail is also really bad for a 20+ sec cd ability.

Because Reaper has historically been the underserved spec in PvE. For most of GW2s history, necromancer has only existed as competitive condition scepter specs while the power specs were WvW memes and little more. People crave a death knight theme and reaper fit the bill.

Harbinger is unpopular because nobody thinks of a necromancer when you're spraying bullets with a gun or throwing wushu elixirs, so it's an even less popular spec on top of being made of glass by removing shroud but giving the necromancer none of the active defenses and powerful healing and blocks/evades that the other classes have.

Scourge thematically is a very well fleshed out spec and has performed well despite not in the support themed manner it was intended to, but rather as the premier condi dps spec.

I love Harbinger the most, even though it does not feel so necromantic, and perhaps for that reason. It feels more like a mage and spellslinger; something GW2 dearly lacks. 

I understand why Reaper is so beloved, and I think aesthethics and fantasy is a major part for many people. Judging by the fashion.
However, I think it already is a very overplayed spec that gets catered to more than enough. Which is why I would like to see new weapon choices to synergize a bit better with Harbinger and Scourge, instead of only being tailored around Reaper's kit.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Ahlaradra.5837

[Phyb.6704]

27 minutes ago, Ahlaradra.5837 said:

I love Harbinger the most, even though it does not feel so necromantic, and perhaps for that reason. It feels more like a mage and spellslinger; something GW2 dearly lacks. 

I understand why Reaper is so beloved, and I think aesthethics and fantasy is a major part for many people. Judging by the fashion.
However, I think it already is a very overplayed spec that gets catered to more than enough. Which is why I would like to see new weapon choices to synergize a bit better with Harbinger and Scourge, instead of only being tailored around Reaper's kit.

In open world the swords are great for any elite spec since if you use blood bank trait your gaining a lot of survivability if you have blood bank. You can spec harbringer to have tons of self heal and then spend it all through swords. Scourge protects you well you spend all your hp because of barriers. It really just depends if the sword damage is high enough. Even barbringer shroud 1 and 2 can be spammed to equal reaper shroud 1 and 2. Yes you have reaper shroud 4 however it is 20sec recharge and if swords can do something that is worth not using that since it costs an almost 3 sec cast time then it would be worth dropping shroud to get more dmg from swords. All the specs have a lot of self sustain. Harbringer just lacks high hp/shroud hp or barriers. But it gets tons of self heal.

The hp cost could even be higher. The problem is they do not do enough damage yet. You could technically take  1,1,1 in harbringer traits and do very well. Its just the damage thats too low with swords.