Dear Commanders and Lieutenants

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i think the key to wining fights is having a well-balanced squad. if you group your high damage dealers with your best supports, then everything inbetween will quickly get vaporised and you'll be down to half your numbers and eating target caps in no time, so you want it either opposing or randomised.

 

most of squad warfare revolves around not eating target caps, because if you do, you're in trouble.

Edited January 23 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Dawdler.8521]

54 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think the key to wining fights is having a well-balanced squad.

Not really, the key to winning a fight is killing the enemy before dying.

[SweetPotato.7456]

Did you tell the commander/lieutenant what you bring to the squad?
in my experience, our lieutenant would ask, and players who aren't usually joining our squad would tell what they are bringing. 

BTW, I doubt any commanders and/or lieutenant are here to read your open letter, need to tell them what you are offering.

Edited January 23 by SweetPotato.7456

[Dagger.2035]

5 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

So you're saying it is impossible to tell the reason why you lost without ArcDPS. Well I guess there are people who play WvW without having any clue how WvW works.

I think if a player has played WvW long enough they can get a sense of what is going on, but the majority of players are in the dark since they don't run ArcDPS.  There's been so many times a few players are doing most of the squad's damage.  If those players back off or swap builds, and the squad loses the next fight without them, they have no idea what just happened.  Install ArcDPS and try it out.  You'll see the same few names always on the top of the damage chart.

[Chaba.5410]

6 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

ArcDPS

Wasn't exactly what I meant. Thought my 2nd question made that clear. Feels like you didn't read past the first sentence at all.

Dude could be measuring against NPCs and siege for all anyone knows. Down contributions? Maybe the squad has no room in a stab party because there are a lot of necros who need stab more than him and those aren't going to be topping DPS necessarily. No details were given.

[Chaba.5410]

If this is a pug squad being talked about, half the time about 15% of the squad is "scouting". That has little to do with being meta or non-meta.

[bq pd.2148]

15 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Down contributions?

as some people look at this, it might be worth noting that overkills are fully valued and steal some of the metric from other people who did reduce the HP.

hit a target with 500 HP left for 15k and you get 15k down contribution but someone else who actually did HP damage just lost almost the same amount, thus it rewards late bursters. hits into barrier also dont count for damage done, thus you should really burst slightly too late if you want to maximize Arc Numbers but not too late to hit into invuln.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

you're right but ppl are so meta brained in just about every game now. they can't think for themselves so they rely on someone else to tell them whats good

[Chaba.5410]

43 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

as some people look at this, it might be worth noting that overkills are fully valued and steal some of the metric from other people who did reduce the HP.

hit a target with 500 HP left for 15k and you get 15k down contribution but someone else who actually did HP damage just lost almost the same amount, thus it rewards late bursters. hits into barrier also dont count for damage done, thus you should really burst slightly too late if you want to maximize Arc Numbers but not too late to hit into invuln.

Thanks.  That's one metric that seemed a bit off to me, but it goes to my point that the stats can be "cheated".  Us readers have no way of knowing how their arc is set up.  We don't have the full picture.  Maybe OP can just post some logs up for us to look at.

Edited January 23 by Chaba.5410

[Gotejjeken.1267]

10 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

So you're saying it is impossible to tell the reason why you lost without ArcDPS. Well I guess there are people who play WvW without having any clue how WvW works.

All the more to OPs point considering this post is entirely extremes...

[ArchonWing.9480]

ArcDPS is good for a tool of self improvement, but it's much more useful for dealing with trends, and not a few fights where it's like "omg I am so good and everyone sucks". And unfortunately many use it for the later.

Of course if someone consistently does good dps, and they're not regularly just grabbing logs involving tower lords (you can filter damage vs siege/npcs) or just coming in to tryhard rotations in fights already won, then it'd probably suggest something. But cherrypicking parses with no context doesn't help.

A  very typical scenario is where the group is losing, and that skews the damage numbers. Of course a lot of people's numbers will be bad if the group wipes, and the damage will be skewed towards those with ranged, consistent damage. It's also pretty obvious melee suffers the most. In these case, I can probably top the logs on something like a 2x barrage soulbeast (btw that's getting buffed next week) but that doesn't really mean anything. If the comp is bad enough I could outcleanse  supports on a willbender. I mean those supports could do their job if I were on a Firebrand, but screw that, they can just get perma CC"d and I can just give them a bunch of "?" when they do badly.

 

. Sadly, this is also when dumb groups get super toxic with the logs. Of course melee can't do their job when you're pirateshipping 90% of the fight and getting killed on the first major push. That's a good sign people should not be using parsers because they aren't good at analysis.

And of course utility is also a thing. Even if a catalyst does more damage than a Berserker, the Berserker has stuff like banners that can change the outcome of a fight

 

I mean honestly, I don't even look at the chart mid-fight; just look at the logs after.  Though sometimes I meme about purposely not giving stab so I can top the charts more easily. 🤣\

And finally, while I am not accusing anyone of such behavior, I find it more common among those that would bring these issues out in the open, instead of like, you know contacting commanders in private. And the real truth is that often a lot of people on the forums don't get into the groups they desire because their personalities are lacking, or stand out in the wrong way.

tl;dr Your performance in a large fight is rarely just your own. The commander's decisions, the quality of your support, and the cohesiveness of the group contributes a lot to success. And pushing one's own personal performance especially when the group fails, is probably a sign that you're not playing like a team player and thus people don't want that. So maybe the berserker that takes Signet of Rage will parse higher than the one that takes banners, but who's going to get more friends?

Edited January 23 by ArchonWing.9480

[devastoscz.9851]

OP are you in comms? I'll take a mediocre dps in comms over a dps god not in comms for a proper party. The guy in comms is more likely to take directions appropriately and do damage when and where it is called for. Someone spamming their skills on a blob can easily rack up a giant DPS output on ARC, but if it's not coordinated it means nothing, because it kills nothing. Coordinated, and more importantly, CONCENTRATED damage is what generates downs.

Think about it this way, it only takes ~20k to kill an enemy, and that can be split between 10 people, within a short burst window at 2-3k damage each. You solo spamming 50k on 5 players in the same window means you did 10k on each, effectively killing nothing.

Good WvW groups/guilds are highly coordinated in movement along with strip/CC/damage timing, which to do effectively requires comms. If you're not in comms, you're not getting a "proper" spot in my squad regardless of what your output is.

Edited January 24 by devastoscz.9851

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:14 PM, chripsy.1027 said:

I have no idea why you are trying to devalue what I wrote. There are non-meta classes in the squad doing up to 5 times more damage than some of the meta classes who have been given support, but they die frequently because no stab/heals. Some commanders and lieutenants refuse to give support to non-meta classes for some reason. Surely you will agree the highest dps (meta or non-meta) should be given priority so, you know, the squad has more chance of winning the fight?....

As someone who build squad setups for many years, let me tell you that all I see of you is an class icon. 

Rarely I look at your buff food to determine what you play but that's it. 

Thats all you are, a nameless informationless Elite spec icon. 

There is always a meta 5man setup that you want 10 times. Literally "match the pictures" gameplay. 

If you are not a meta spec, the question is, what are you replacing in the meta comb. 

When your spec however gets so bad that it can't do any job, things get complicated and you often get placed in the leftover group. Also called, be lucky we didn't kick you group. 

[Justine.6351]

If I am in a squad and the commander puts me in the "leftovers" party then I just play off tag and focus on myself.

[Dagger.2035]

9 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

ArcDPS is good for a tool of self improvement, but it's much more useful for dealing with trends, and not a few fights where it's like "omg I am so good and everyone sucks". And unfortunately many use it for the later.

I've never seen any elitism in WvW where someone in game references ArcDPS.  Damage usually seems pretty consistent where the same group of people always end up in the top 5, and those players tend to be the type to not brag or disparage other players.  I usually see toxicity from players newer to the game.  You can click on them and they tend to be on the wrong professions or builds, running oddball stacking sigils, or condition food.  Deadeyes seem especially popular in this regard.

Edited January 24 by Dagger.2035

[Riba.3271]

´

17 hours ago, Dagger.2035 said:

On 1/23/2024 at 10:41 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

ArcDPS is good for a tool of self improvement, but it's much more useful for dealing with trends, and not a few fights where it's like "omg I am so good and everyone sucks". And unfortunately many use it for the later.

I've never seen any elitism in WvW where someone in game references ArcDPS.  Damage usually seems pretty consistent where the same group of people always end up in the top 5, and those players tend to be the type to not brag or disparage other players.  I usually see toxicity from players newer to the game.  You can click on them and they tend to be on the wrong professions or builds, running oddball stacking sigils, or condition food.  Deadeyes seem especially popular in this regard.

There is some if you play with people that know you already. Try making DPS build that is more focused on providing boons to allies, CCing or tanking enemies (tank berserker/herald, staff catalyst, etc) and you can sometimes witness weavers and bow berserkers laugh at you for your lower damage. Even though you absorbed ton of enemy damage or boosted your allies damage a lot.
For example Catalyst has lower personal DPS benchmark than Weaver, but grants permanent quickness/fury/might to 5 people, has access to CC abilities on demand, can provide pulsing protection fields, and has much higher personal survivability. But for some reason, people still promote weaver and think it is more meta. Even though it is less total damage, CC and survivability. Why? ArcDPS.

Edited January 24 by Riba.3271

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

´

There is some if you play with people that know you already. Try making DPS build that is more focused on providing boons to allies, CCing or tanking enemies (tank berserker/herald, staff catalyst, etc) and you can sometimes witness weavers and bow berserkers laugh at you for your lower damage. Even though you absorbed ton of enemy damage or boosted your allies damage a lot.
For example Catalyst has lower personal DPS benchmark than Weaver, but grants permanent quickness/fury/might to 5 people, has access to CC abilities on demand, can provide pulsing protection fields, and has much higher personal survivability. But for some reason, people still promote weaver and think it is more meta. Even though it is less total damage, CC and survivability. Why? ArcDPS.

Hmm, yea this is a good point.

People should grasp the concept of rDPS (raid contributing dps-- which they'd come with a better name). But if say you grant your party 10 stacks of might, the dps they gained  from you doing that (vs without) should be credited to you. I would see that you sacrificed 10% of your damage to boost everyone in your party by 10% and note you probably knew what you were doing.

And of course stuff like stuff like barriers and stuff is even harder to measure.

Incidentally, a lot of this information is available on arcdps, but very few people look at that

So one chould be like, "why should i sacrifice any of my damage, when everyone does 1/3 my damag?", but when you boost 4 other people, it may be more damage collectively even if they individually do less damage. Especially true since boons providing a flat boost inherently benefit lower damage builds. This can be observed where uncomped/non-zerg builds can struggle to even keep up with comped builds in minstrel gear.

And of course dying is a huge penalty, since if you rally the enemy, it's basically a negative damage contribution. This is not like pve where you can burst the boss and die, and still be more useful than other players because in wvw you must secure those kills or it is all undone by res's and heals. A good timed banner or res skill is quite literally a swing in the hundreds of thousands when it comes to damage.

At the end of the day, one should view their impact on the team when looking at charts and seek to improve that , rather than seeing it as a race. Since the race is null and void if you all wipe. This is not to say it can't be used to feed one's ego because sure, sometimes you carry, but let's be honest-- no one is that important (not even me!) and acting like that will not earn you the best squad spots.

On an unrelated note, I find Arcdps very useful for finding the overall contribution of damage that a certain skill does. Naturally, higher priority should be given to your hardest hitters, and ones that don't are more expendable, and can be replaced if you need to adjust your build. And of course, if you do compare to others of your same class and realize that you are not getting much use of a certain skill that they are, then it's time to think about ways you could be getting more out of the skill.

When I see people struggle, it's often because they are not casting their major skills enough, or sometimes not at all. WvW naturally has the issue of wasting them on frivolous targets  and lag too, but all and all focusing on any glaring issues will result in improvement regardless of what you're doing.

Edited January 25 by ArchonWing.9480

[Nidome.1365]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:53 PM, chripsy.1027 said:

Dear Commanders and Lieutenants , will you please stop blindly putting players in parties with support just because they are a meta class and actually look at who is doing damage on Arc. Yes, even if that means prioritising non-meta classes for support (gasp).

Better idea - just kick any player who mentions ArcDPS. No more problems.

[Timelord.8190]

Putting the high DPS players will scale the squads total dmg even higher than having medicore DPS players in the same parties. Basic logic. And ofc you have to time the DPS right with the rest of the players, but most DPS players already doing that. Basic logic, shouldn't have to be said to be honest.

[Sugar Min.5834]

~forget it~

Edited January 29 by Sugar Min.5834