Can we talk about necro support weapons?

[Nimon.7840]

So with the introduction of the new weapons, a lot of classes got some kind of support weapon. 

Mesmer rifle, warrior staff, engi short bow (even though it's not that good).

And two more classes got one handed weapons to compliment their offhand choice for the second weapon set: ranger mace and rev scepter.

So all of those classes now have at least one weapon set, with more than just one support skill on it.

If we look at necros support skill options on weapons that either heal or provide boons:

Torch 5, warhorn 5, staff 2 - that's it. And necro has 12 weapons it can equip, but the most number of support skills a weapon set can provide is one?

Don't get me wrong. Heal scourge is very good as a healer, especially for groups/fights in which people tend to go downstate often. And it's also good as a celestial build if you feel like you don't need 2 full healers, but one wouldn't be enough either.

For it's pretty annoying that on full heal scourge you only have one support skill on every weapon set. That makes the weapon choice kinda redundant. 

Imo there should be at least one more skill on something like dagger. And dagger 2 would be the perfect candidate for that. The life steal could just be changed, that it heals allies as well. And if the values are too high, make it heal allies by 20% of the value you are healed, and if you are full health that value gets increased to 50% or something like that. Which could in some distant future make heal harbinger a thing.

And there have been several other ideas in the forum, for example giving warhorn a blast finisher and group swiftness just to slightly improve necro support builds.

[felincyriac.5981]

they could look to add some other boons to staff skills, vigor would be nice to have somewhere.

 

wh 5 is begging to have aoe swiftness etc. 

 

Maybe one day following a game of darts the devs will finally implement something

[Dadnir.5038]

In term of support the necromancer have always been an oddball in the game. That's why we got an abomination like the harbinger's spec introduced in the game.

Personally, more than having weapons with some amount of support, I'd prefer to have minions providing group support via their active skills (even if it mean that the damage generated by those minions would be reduced).

First I'd make some change to the Minions active skills:

• Taste of death: Now grant Regeneration to the necromancer on top of healing.
• Rigor mortis: This skill have been reworked. It now sacrifice the bone fiend to create an area lasting a few seconds that cripple foes periodically. This skill also grant Resistance to the necromancer.
• Putrid explosion: The damage dealt by this skill have been significantly reduced but the skill now daze foes within it's area of effect and grant Aegis on use to the necromancer.
• Necrotic traversal: Now grant Swiftness to the necromancer on top of it's previous effects.
• Haunt: Now, the shadow fiend is desroyed upon reaching it's target and the necromancer gain Resolution.
• Charge: The flesh golem is destroyed upon dealing the final strike and the necromancer gain Stability.

Then the traits:

• Flesh of the master and Necromantic corruption: Those 2 traits are merged into the new Adept trait Flesh of corruption.
• Flesh of corruption: Gain carapace for each minion you control. Minion drain conditions from you and transfert them on succesful attacks (10s ICD per minion)
• New trait: Furious wish: Minions active skills now also grant fury and share their boons within a 360 radius.
• Death nova: This trait now also share might when you or a minion are downed.
• Vampiric: This trait no longer let your minions siphon life for you whenever they hit a foe. Instead, when you or one of your minions is downed/sacrificed, create a life force nova that heal allies within the radius.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I remember when Necro had more support... I remember when wells granted protection... But it still has decent support via the traitlines, but OP is right in that there really isn't a support weapon. TBH I think Anet would be very careful there, so any necro support weapon is bound to be lukewarm unless Scourge gets incredibly nerfed.

What is left that could function as a support weapon, most likely a MH weapon?

Mace.

Not sure about the full AA chain, but 1s of protection to allies within 600 range is what I would put on the last strike. It could be from a Mark, to spread those out from staff some, though I'm not sure on that myself. I'd bring back the 'Order' spells from GW for the rest of the kit.

Mace 2 would be Order of Vampirism, the next 5/3 strikes of affected allies steal 1000/500 HP. Initially grant vigor for 5s. 6s/8s CD. 1/2s cast.  (PvE/Comp)

Mace 3 Could be Order of Pain. Grant 5 might for 5s and 5s of Fury to allies within 600 range. The next 5/3 attacks from affected allies inflict 2/3 stacks of vulnerability for 5/3s and weakness for 2s. 12s CD, 1/2s cast.  (PvE/Comp)

The new gimmick from swords to sacrifice HP for using a flipover could be ported over for extra effects, but I'm not sure what for at the moment. MM's would love those two skills though. Probably would be broken though with Blood Bank now that I think about it....

[Szatko.8132]

Yeah, Necromancer as a profession has this problem of not really having a lot of utility and team support by itself. The only utility that core Necromancer can provide is Well of Blood, Well of Power and perhaps a couple of traits from Blood Magic specialization tree (that realistically are only useful when playing Scourge anyways due to their synergy with Transfusion). The rest is just fully packed into Scourge elite specialization: boon application, healing, barriers - it's all coming from said elite spec. 

With that being said, Necromancer (similarly to Elementalist) must have some of their core weapons reworked. I would 100% want them to make dagger mainly a support weapon with dagger 2 pulsing out healing and regen to allies, especially since they gave power builds dual swords now. Staff could get a full rework to be a more wvw-oriented support/control weapon.

Also please Anet, give us a clear indicator and visuals for Sandstorm Shroud instead of that yellow ring that blends with boss mechanics...

[Zenith.7301]

They just need to make staff have actual support and give Scourge real supportive traits alongside changing punishment skills to provide boons, cleanse, and healing. The staff auto should heal targets it passes through and provide might. The marks could further provide might, fury, protection, and resolution. The scourge shroud can then provide the missing boons alongside the punishment skills.

The marks are already begging to have healing and support built into them, and they can make a Scourge trait where barrier consumed turns into healing on the target.

More importantly, a source of aegis and stability.

For a second supportive set to staff they can change mainhand dagger to a melee support weapon, with the lifedrain from dagger 2 healing your allies, and making necro warhorn a condition cleanse+stability weapon. Dagger 3 can serve as a boon corrupt plus ally boons/healing.

Nobody uses mainhand dagger as a power weapon, it's already crowded out by greatsword and mainhand swords anyways.

They should also buff vampiric aura so the blood and death traitlines can serve as supportive traitlines.

Edited March 14 by Zenith.7301

[KrHome.1920]

Support for necro is tricky. The shroud specs would have a too strong synergy if the could support each other making a team of e.g. 5 reapers too strong. Blood magic does not stack (like 3 BM reapers => 3 times vampiric presence) for a reason.

Harbinger has some support via elixiers. 

Scourge is the tradeoff anet designed for necros that want to play a complete support build ... and it had to be nerfed multiple times because it was braindead. What's left is what the game can handle balaincing wise.

[Szatko.8132]

21 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

They just need to make staff have actual support and give Scourge real supportive traits alongside changing punishment skills to provide boons, cleanse, and healing. The staff auto should heal targets it passes through and provide might. The marks could further provide might, fury, protection, and resolution. The scourge shroud can then provide the missing boons alongside the punishment skills.

The marks are already begging to have healing and support built into them, and they can make a Scourge trait where barrier consumed turns into healing on the target.

More importantly, a source of aegis and stability.

For a second supportive set to staff they can change mainhand dagger to a melee support weapon, with the lifedrain from dagger 2 healing your allies, and making necro warhorn a condition cleanse+stability weapon. Dagger 3 can serve as a boon corrupt plus ally boons/healing.

Nobody uses mainhand dagger as a power weapon, it's already crowded out by greatsword and mainhand swords anyways.

They should also buff vampiric aura so the blood and death traitlines can serve as supportive traitlines.

Do you even play Scourge? They already have a whole traitline focused on support that provides them with majority of their might uptime, cleanses, barriers, MORE barriers, alacrity and free +15% boon uptime. Punishments already provide great utility to the team with 100% fury uptime, more might, aegis, stab, more barriers and Sand Swell that is very good for certain raid or strike encounters. There's really no need to push so many boons into staff. What could be done IMO is reworking marks into delayed AoE effects instead of traps (similar to Brand's W ability from League of Legends) with one of them providing a burst of heal with regeneration, one for boon corrupt and damage, one for fear and damage and the last one for chill and damage. Also, it's not true that dagger is not used as a mh power weapon, because Power Reaper builds still want to use it instead of mh sword for more life force generation - but that's gonna change soon, because swords are not really optimal for any build atm. 

Edited March 14 by Szatko.8132

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Was going to make a new thread but since this one has similar ideas so I'm putting it here. 

I've played a fair share of time on most classes. Obviously my main is Mesmer, but I have a soft spot for Necromancer too. And I think a major pain point that bugs me and probably a lot of people is that Necromancers can't really do quick heal.  Now to be fair, a lot of other classes also haven't had their quick heal build either: Quick Heal Berserker is a work in progress, Quick Heal Catalyst is a meme, and Quick Heal Deadeye is......non-existent.  

But unlike those classes, Harbinger already has solid supportive traits and good access to boon sharing utilities. What's lacking in a hypothetical Quick Heal Harbinger build would be the healing output: Necromancers can only heal others when using Shroud 4, which is not readily available at anytime on any Necromancer builds except for Scourge. And so when outside of Shroud, a hypothetical Quick Heal Harbinger would have 0 healing sources.

This is where I propose a healing weapon for Necromancer: having a healing weapon would solve both the output and the outside of Shroud issue. I don't have an idea of what this weapon should be or what the skills should do yet, but I'm just stating there's a necessity for it. Feel free to craft your own ideas on what it should be like. 

[mirage.8046]

I would much rather rework warhorn and staff to be the support weapons. Torch and staff are our only weapons that give boons to allies: might and regeneration respectively. Seriously. 
Instead of having to introduce a brand new support weapon in whatever expansion, why not rework what we already have?? 

If we're gonna talk about boons, well, my biggest pain point with support scourge and support harbinger is stability. Elixir of ignorance should grant a few stacks of stability and maybe trail of anguish give ~5 stacks of stability.
 

Main-hand dagger #2 could grant regen and vigor; again, make warhorn grant aoe swiftness and another boon like vigor or resolution. Having readily available healing outside shroud is also a big pain point, which could be made into staff. Putrid blast could heal you and allies per condition removed. Mark of blood could heal allies as well.

It's high time to look into the other 2 major blood magic traits as they're bad to useless. (Lesser well of blood is still godly). Banshee's wail should be reworked to something like this: warhorn skills have increased durations and grant healing. Cleanse conditions from allies whenever you grant swiftness or regeneration.  Vampiric: this trait modifies regen to give life siphon and +250 healing power.

[Zenith.7301]

On 3/14/2024 at 11:00 AM, Szatko.8132 said:

Do you even play Scourge? They already have a whole traitline focused on support that provides them with majority of their might uptime, cleanses, barriers, MORE barriers, alacrity and free +15% boon uptime. Punishments already provide great utility to the team with 100% fury uptime, more might, aegis, stab, more barriers and Sand Swell that is very good for certain raid or strike encounters. There's really no need to push so many boons into staff. What could be done IMO is reworking marks into delayed AoE effects instead of traps (similar to Brand's W ability from League of Legends) with one of them providing a burst of heal with regeneration, one for boon corrupt and damage, one for fear and damage and the last one for chill and damage. Also, it's not true that dagger is not used as a mh power weapon, because Power Reaper builds still want to use it instead of mh sword for more life force generation - but that's gonna change soon, because swords are not really optimal for any build atm. 

They don't provide high protection uptime, no resolution, no aegis, no reliable stability, and burst healing is virtually nonexistant; barriers are preventive, but they don't immediately recover your party when they facetank stupid. Scourge is generally always brought as a second support, not the main healer for a squad. The whole point is to give them a primary healer role with staff and a changed mh dagger+warhorn while transitioning reaper and harbinger into the respective dps elite specs, ideally power for reaper and condi for harbinger while scourge functions as an effective support spec (and yes, harbinger can flex to quickness support dps).

Mainhand dagger is interchangeable with staff in power reaper specs, and for any fight with downtime or ranged requirements like the EoD CM's you're better off swapping out dagger for staff.

Under my suggestion, mainhand dagger would be solidified in a support niche alongside staff, and open up the bad mainhand swords and mainhand axe to be shifted toward the power DPS spec, giving a choice of mobility and single target for swords vs. the greatsword's cleave and superior CC/defense while hopefully they fix mainhand axe to not be a steaming pile of garbage just because it has a tracking attack that they worry about in PvP balance when it has no relevance in PvE.

This is about eliminating redundancies so no spec or weapon feels eclipsed and useless by the alternatives, each will have its place to shine and function in.

The only weapons that face difficulty here are offhand focus and offhand dagger, but if mainhand axe is made good, offhand focus can be improved while offhand torch can be shifted to condi dps (it is currently used even for power spec) and offhand dagger can serve as a condi dps side weapon where you choose between it and torch or combine pistol/torch with scepter/dagger for utility preferences.

Edited March 15 by Zenith.7301

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

to be honest, i feel like the engineer's new shortbow is everything the necromancer staff should've been. hopefully they go back and buff it at some point!, since its now very strange to have so many power weapons, and staff was recently made into a power weapon for no reason as well.

Edited March 15 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Tren.5120]

On 3/13/2024 at 8:13 PM, Szatko.8132 said:

I would 100% want them to make dagger mainly a support weapon with dagger 2 pulsing out healing and regen to allies, especially since they gave power builds dual swords now.

I don't agree.  I think having one fast melee option is good for the class.  Best option for this is Staff.

In any case, if they were to do that, they'd probably have to revamp other trait lines to compensate.  Those trait lines were designed with those weapons' skills in mind.

[Shuzuru.3651]

4 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

They don't provide high protection uptime, no resolution, no aegis, no reliable stability, and burst healing is virtually nonexistant; barriers are preventive, but they don't immediately recover your party when they facetank stupid. Scourge is generally always brought as a second support, not the main healer for a squad.

When is the last time you played heal scourge?

They got more than enough prot uptime, they got aegis, you get a nice burst healing with transfusion and healing well. The barrier is more than enough for facetanking anything.

I do agree for resolution and stab. But unless you got a guard, resolution is not needed with the amount of cleanse you got.

And Scourge is perfectly viable as a main healer or even solo healer.

[Szatko.8132]

On 3/15/2024 at 5:28 PM, Zenith.7301 said:

They don't provide high protection uptime, no resolution, no aegis, no reliable stability, and burst healing is virtually nonexistant; barriers are preventive, but they don't immediately recover your party when they facetank stupid. Scourge is generally always brought as a second support, not the main healer for a squad. The whole point is to give them a primary healer role with staff and a changed mh dagger+warhorn while transitioning reaper and harbinger into the respective dps elite specs, ideally power for reaper and condi for harbinger while scourge functions as an effective support spec (and yes, harbinger can flex to quickness support dps).

Mainhand dagger is interchangeable with staff in power reaper specs, and for any fight with downtime or ranged requirements like the EoD CM's you're better off swapping out dagger for staff.

Under my suggestion, mainhand dagger would be solidified in a support niche alongside staff, and open up the bad mainhand swords and mainhand axe to be shifted toward the power DPS spec, giving a choice of mobility and single target for swords vs. the greatsword's cleave and superior CC/defense while hopefully they fix mainhand axe to not be a steaming pile of garbage just because it has a tracking attack that they worry about in PvP balance when it has no relevance in PvE.

This is about eliminating redundancies so no spec or weapon feels eclipsed and useless by the alternatives, each will have its place to shine and function in.

The only weapons that face difficulty here are offhand focus and offhand dagger, but if mainhand axe is made good, offhand focus can be improved while offhand torch can be shifted to condi dps (it is currently used even for power spec) and offhand dagger can serve as a condi dps side weapon where you choose between it and torch or combine pistol/torch with scepter/dagger for utility preferences.

Scourge support is absolutely capable of providing 100% protection uptime. Resolution is not required for a support build, especially if it can already provide so much condi cleanse for free via Abrasive Gift with every barrier you apply, Nefarious Favor or even Well of Power if that's not already enough. Scourges also have on-demand aegis in a form of Serpent Siphon. There's no such a thing as "second support" role in this game, perhaps that's how you call "tank support/healer"? Nontheless, Scourge can be played and is very welcome in all raid squads as a tank healer, kite or just a healer. Many squads will even slot 2 Scourges, especially for training runs because of their enormous barrier application. You don't need a lot of healing, like Tempest or Druid, because there aren't many times when enemies are able to pass through all your consistent barriers.

I also agree that staff should be primarily a support weapon, but "overbooning" a spec that already has access to everything you need on a support is not a way to go. Same goes to dagger. The only thing I would want is a consistent source of regen on dagger, so you don't have to use Serpent Siphon, Well of Blood or dodges in order to upkeep this boon or perhaps vigor, but that's up to debate if Scourges should be able to provide it with their current barrier numbers. Staff marks could be reworked, so instead of being traps they're delayed area abilities, but with very similar functionality.

Edited March 17 by Szatko.8132

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

On 3/15/2024 at 12:28 PM, Zenith.7301 said:

They don't provide high protection uptime, no resolution, no aegis, no reliable stability, and burst healing is virtually nonexistant; barriers are preventive, but they don't immediately recover your party when they facetank stupid. Scourge is generally always brought as a second support, not the main healer for a squad. The whole point is to give them a primary healer role with staff and a changed mh dagger+warhorn while transitioning reaper and harbinger into the respective dps elite specs, ideally power for reaper and condi for harbinger while scourge functions as an effective support spec (and yes, harbinger can flex to quickness support dps).

100% uptime isn't high for Protection?  Serpent Siphon doesn't provide Aegis?  Are you still living in 2020?

Scourge as a main healer is absolutely viable because the barriers are large enough burst healing isn't that important (especially as there's no more scholar bonus to keep up). Given the typical subsquad arrangement is 1 healer, I also have no idea what you mean by "not brought as the main healer."  You don't bring healscourge if you already have a healer for your sub.

[Szatko.8132]

3 hours ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

100% uptime isn't high for Protection?  Serpent Siphon doesn't provide Aegis?  Are you still living in 2020?

Scourge as a main healer is absolutely viable because the barriers are large enough burst healing isn't that important (especially as there's no more scholar bonus to keep up). Given the typical subsquad arrangement is 1 healer, I also have no idea what you mean by "not brought as the main healer."  You don't bring healscourge if you already have a healer for your sub.

I wouldn't be surprised if some people are actually still living in 2020. Yesterday I almost got kicked from IBS strike squad, because commander didn't know that Scourge can provide alac 🫠

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I'd be fine with just shared swiftness on warhorn 5

[DanAlcedo.3281]

The fact that Warhorn swiftness isn't aoe baffles me. 

[Yasai.3549]

I would like:
Staff mini revamp:

Staff 1 now bounces three times instead of pierces. 

Soul Marks > Soul Master

Marks become unblockable and grant 3% Life force when triggered

Additionally, Staff 1 plus two bounces and can bounce to allies, granting Regeneration. 

Prioritizes ally bouncing when Soul Master is taken. 

 

I'm sick of Necros having really bad Regeneration application. This should help it out without juggling Mark of Blood, rolling on the floor to get a Dodge Mark under the boss, being married to Serpent Siphon or wasting precious revive tool that is Well of Blood. 

 

Edited March 18 by Yasai.3549

[StraightPath.3972]

I main a warrior.
And the direct reason for it is because necro has next to no stab nor stunbreaks for allies.
Same for resolution let alone resistance.

As much as I love the reaper, I want to have my solid team support as well as solo potential on one character only.
And scourge is just too ragdolly for me to give it a pass as my choice of support.

[Nimon.7840]

On 3/17/2024 at 9:52 PM, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

100% uptime isn't high for Protection?  Serpent Siphon doesn't provide Aegis?  Are you still living in 2020?

Scourge as a main healer is absolutely viable because the barriers are large enough burst healing isn't that important (especially as there's no more scholar bonus to keep up). Given the typical subsquad arrangement is 1 healer, I also have no idea what you mean by "not brought as the main healer."  You don't bring healscourge if you already have a healer for your sub.

Well there's two alac scourge builds that don't provide 100% prot uptime: condi alac scourge and cele alac scourge.

But I don't think that anet should balance protection on scourge around those builds.

That would just lead to something like herald 2.0. and I don't think that we want that.

Though they definitely could improve various boons on scourge.

Might: there's plenty of might with torch, abrasive grit and blood is power (or dessicate).

Fury: already a "problem" nowadays many dps classes provide 50% fury uptime for a group. But the problem is, that not all of them do so.

Regeneration: no problem here, healing well, dodge, serpent siphon all provide regeneration.

But it can still be a problem sometimes. I wonder if you could just make furious demise from the curses traitline group wide, but I think it would be better on either a support traitline or a power traitline, best imo would be a weapon. Cause often it feels like a waste to bring dessicate.

Aegis: we do have serpent siphon which is a rather decent skill, the only problem I have with it, is that it's not an instant (no casttime) skill. Btw same as warrior which makes it sometimes a lot harder to actually block the right attack.

Swiftness: huge problem, that needs to be addressed imo. There's only the febe relic, which can give you almost 100% uptime if you use the healing well on cooldown, but that's not something you want to do with your main direct healing ability.

And there's trail of anguish which leads me to stability and the overall problem of this skill. This skill can basically not be used to prevent a cc in a lot of fights unless you know them extremely well, because you first need to know, that some cc is incoming and then you also have to run through all your allies to actually provide stability, which takes a lot of time.

So adding some of the "missing" boons to weapons or maybe even shift some healing on a weapon would be nice.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Yeah, definitely ways to improve the build, but overall, I feel like every healer build should have a hole or two they can't cover reliably.  For example, Firebrand, while handling most boons well, it doesn't really heal that much compared to other healers.

Scourge loses on the swiftness and stability, but makes up for it with unmatched condition cleanse and revive ability plus massive barriers.

I would love to see some of the Scourge support get moved on to weapons, though.  It does feel very strange that half of our bar is practically meaningless as each weapon set only has at most one support skill.  Maybe some group stability on Reaper's Mark or Putrid Mark or group swiftness on Locust Swarm (actually, having traited Locust Swarm apply its full effects to yourself and 4 allies would be really cool.  Remove the group healing aspect in favor of that).

Edited March 21 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

6 hours ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Yeah, definitely ways to improve the build, but overall, I feel like every healer build should have a hole or two they can't cover reliably.  For example, Firebrand, while handling most boons well, it doesn't really heal that much compared to other healers.

Scourge loses on the swiftness and stability, but makes up for it with unmatched condition cleanse and revive ability plus massive barriers.

I would love to see some of the Scourge support get moved on to weapons, though.  It does feel very strange that half of our bar is practically meaningless as each weapon set only has at most one support skill.  Maybe some group stability on Reaper's Mark or Putrid Mark or group swiftness on Locust Swarm (actually, having traited Locust Swarm apply its full effects to yourself and 4 allies would be really cool.  Remove the group healing aspect in favor of that).

It’s worth noting that with Relic of the Midnight King, you’ll have at least a 2nd support skill for each weapon set since Necro weapons always have 1 skill that fear/CC. I use it with Staff 5 on my Heal Scourge to grant more Might + Fury in addition to Regen. This ensures my Scourge can maintain 25 Might stacks and Fury uptime by itself for my subgroup.

And the heal on Locust Swarm is more useful than Swiftness share, since Swiftness is largely a not very useful boon when 90% of most encounters are about stacking in 1 place.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

14 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

And the heal on Locust Swarm is more useful than Swiftness share, since Swiftness is largely a not very useful boon when 90% of most encounters are about stacking in 1 place.

My idea with Locust Swarm is that you drop the AoE heal, but give each affected ally their own swarm of locusts. Group healing ultimately remains the same, but more of a DPS increase and also group swiftness.