Power De-Creep. What would you adjust?

[Sonork.2916]

The amount of free boons and utility tacked on through traits is obnoxious, and incredibly hard to play around.  Some classes get infinite uptime or close on these boons which just happen to be the best boons in the game.  Like soul beasts with infinite protection on dodge.  Warriors and now engineers gain resistance on imply dodging, with warriors getting stab and movement impairing effects whenever they use a movement skill.  Cata's gain stab whenever they get an aura.  + a lot more, so much powerful free boons/utility for simply doing the things they do anyways.

[Leo G.4501]

1 hour ago, Sonork.2916 said:

The amount of free boons and utility tacked on through traits is obnoxious, and incredibly hard to play around.  Some classes get infinite uptime or close on these boons which just happen to be the best boons in the game.  Like soul beasts with infinite protection on dodge.  Warriors and now engineers gain resistance on imply dodging, with warriors getting stab and movement impairing effects whenever they use a movement skill.  Cata's gain stab whenever they get an aura.  + a lot more, so much powerful free boons/utility for simply doing the things they do anyways.

Then what would traits be changed to do?

I see traits as coming in several flavors:

• ones that tack on skills to other skills or situations like adding a minor-version of a utility when you activate an elite skill or activating a minor-version of a utility when you get 3 conditions.
• ones that augment stats or effects directly; so stuff that just ups your ferocity or adds extra stats when you get boons or increase the duration of consecrations.
• ones that augment skills such as adding extra charges to shatters or makes your dragon slash have fewer max charges.
• ones that give you extra skills like Berserker getting the extra skill that cancels Berserk mode.
• ones that add additional boons/conditions to skills/effects/scenarios. (this is the one you are talking about).

Probably some I missed but...if they did less of the latter, they have to replace them with something as some traits literally only grant boons/conditions for certain actions.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Personally, I like the direction that the trait reworks have gone in general, but it does feed the surplus of boons.

That is one reason to potentially look at how much boon duration concentration gives, so that the boons that are given by traits are limited in duration and thus scope.

[Sonork.2916]

18 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Then what would traits be changed to do?

I see traits as coming in several flavors:

• ones that tack on skills to other skills or situations like adding a minor-version of a utility when you activate an elite skill or activating a minor-version of a utility when you get 3 conditions.
• ones that augment stats or effects directly; so stuff that just ups your ferocity or adds extra stats when you get boons or increase the duration of consecrations.
• ones that augment skills such as adding extra charges to shatters or makes your dragon slash have fewer max charges.
• ones that give you extra skills like Berserker getting the extra skill that cancels Berserk mode.
• ones that add additional boons/conditions to skills/effects/scenarios. (this is the one you are talking about).

Probably some I missed but...if they did less of the latter, they have to replace them with something as some traits literally only grant boons/conditions for certain actions.

I'd say it's more about which boon it is, and how often the trait can provide it.  The best boons in the game shouldn't come from simply pressing the dodge button.

[Mascarun.7910]

Remove most/all multiplicative damage bonuses from traits, even elite ones. Things like do 20% more damage when target is under 50% HP, do 10% more damage to enemies within range, 10% more damage to enemies with X condition, etc. are all unnecessary and sometimes needlessly restrictive. Most DPS specs have like 5-7 of these and do we really need that many? Can also drop the effectiveness of might stack/vulnerability stacks to lower damage more. On that note, those same effects can be removed from relics (relic of fireworks) and sigils (force, bursting, etc.). Since this would take out a lot of damage from the game, just make adjustments to the coefficients of weapon/utility skills themselves, that way we can't fault specific traits for overperforming/underperforming DPS-wise. 

[Drall.2419]

Remove unrealistic weapon swap in combat. Make it take the time to put away the current weapon and take out the other one - 10s for example.  

It would reduce dps from many builds.  You can start adjusting from there.

It would simplify rotations for everyone.  Those looking for complexity still have class with kits.

It would make it easier to have more weapon options for a class since balancing weapons would be simplified. 

It would still allow to have a range and melee option, but you would switch only when you change the range of your fight because of the swapping delay.

That's the first thing I would do as a principle and balance the rest accordingly.  Balance classes accordingly is key here. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, Mascarun.7910 said:

Remove most/all multiplicative damage bonuses from traits, even elite ones. Things like do 20% more damage when target is under 50% HP, do 10% more damage to enemies within range, 10% more damage to enemies with X condition, etc. are all unnecessary and sometimes needlessly restrictive. Most DPS specs have like 5-7 of these and do we really need that many? Can also drop the effectiveness of might stack/vulnerability stacks to lower damage more. On that note, those same effects can be removed from relics (relic of fireworks) and sigils (force, bursting, etc.). Since this would take out a lot of damage from the game, just make adjustments to the coefficients of weapon/utility skills themselves, that way we can't fault specific traits for overperforming/underperforming DPS-wise. 

You'd have to be careful with that. People would be able to bunker in WvW and PvP too easily with no way to kill them. 

[Mascarun.7910]

22 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You'd have to be careful with that. People would be able to bunker in WvW and PvP too easily with no way to kill them. 

My post only focused on PvE since I don't touch the other modes. Possible solution: use a different damage calculation vs enemy players in PvP/WvW modes. Should not have to hold back PvE gameplay changes for PvP/WvW and viceversa. Currently, I feel that there isn't enough of a distinction even with skills having separate cooldowns, durations, coefficients, etc. in different modes and we should just have full on segregation like there is in something like FFXIV, but that is a different topic altogether and I'm sure it's not a popular opinion. 

[Gorani.7205]

1.) One of the base pillars needs to be set to a base value for all professions: keep armour classes and everyone gets the same health or everyone has the same armour class (just a cosmetic) and have three different health pools. Having both has created such a big leverage on skill effects, GW2 started out too volatile to balance (e.g. compared to GW1 with same health + different armour)

2.) Passive boon upkeep or 80%+ boon refresh on clicking a recharged skill needs to be culled. It is too easy to have. I miss the old days of blasting water fields for heals & cleanses and fire fields for might. This applies to large group fights in WvW and "boss fights" in PvE. When the best tactic is to ignore any boss mechanic by balling up on one spot and dodging is considered "a bad move", something is wrong (just look at the travesty that is the Claw of Jormag now)

3.) Superspeed and Alacrity have been a bad idea. We might be better off without it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Mascarun.7910 said:

My post only focused on PvE since I don't touch the other modes. Possible solution: use a different damage calculation vs enemy players in PvP/WvW modes. Should not have to hold back PvE gameplay changes for PvP/WvW and viceversa. Currently, I feel that there isn't enough of a distinction even with skills having separate cooldowns, durations, coefficients, etc. in different modes and we should just have full on segregation like there is in something like FFXIV, but that is a different topic altogether and I'm sure it's not a popular opinion. 

I once suggested that there be a hard cap on total added damage, including critical damage, rather than cut the percentage in the traits, that way freedom gets opened up as you'd only need to grab a few traits to hit the cap rather than trying to grab every damage trait to maximize damage. That could be a solution with different added damage caps in different game modes, possibly even as an effect in Raids, Strikes, and Fractals.

[rotten.9753]

On 5/1/2024 at 10:41 AM, Mascarun.7910 said:

Remove most/all multiplicative damage bonuses from traits, even elite ones. Things like do 20% more damage when target is under 50% HP, do 10% more damage to enemies within range, 10% more damage to enemies with X condition, etc. are all unnecessary and sometimes needlessly restrictive. Most DPS specs have like 5-7 of these and do we really need that many? Can also drop the effectiveness of might stack/vulnerability stacks to lower damage more. On that note, those same effects can be removed from relics (relic of fireworks) and sigils (force, bursting, etc.). Since this would take out a lot of damage from the game, just make adjustments to the coefficients of weapon/utility skills themselves, that way we can't fault specific traits for overperforming/underperforming DPS-wise. 

This, but not to power de-creep but to actually make traits fun. The traits that have simple +%dmg or +stats or condie-on-crit are unimaginative and don't change anything related to gameplay. Traits should have more impact on builds.

[Gesbo.6420]

On 5/1/2024 at 12:24 AM, Leo G.4501 said:

Then what would traits be changed to do?

I see traits as coming in several flavors:

• ones that tack on skills to other skills or situations like adding a minor-version of a utility when you activate an elite skill or activating a minor-version of a utility when you get 3 conditions.
• ones that augment stats or effects directly; so stuff that just ups your ferocity or adds extra stats when you get boons or increase the duration of consecrations.
• ones that augment skills such as adding extra charges to shatters or makes your dragon slash have fewer max charges.
• ones that give you extra skills like Berserker getting the extra skill that cancels Berserk mode.
• ones that add additional boons/conditions to skills/effects/scenarios. (this is the one you are talking about).

Probably some I missed but...if they did less of the latter, they have to replace them with something as some traits literally only grant boons/conditions for certain actions.

And then we have Speed of Sand, that does absolutely nothing that that shouldn't be base line for the dodge

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I once suggested that there be a hard cap on total added damage, including critical damage, rather than cut the percentage in the traits, that way freedom gets opened up as you'd only need to grab a few traits to hit the cap rather than trying to grab every damage trait to maximize damage. That could be a solution with different added damage caps in different game modes, possibly even as an effect in Raids, Strikes, and Fractals.

I really like this idea and have used it in other games I designed. It really helps to round out characters and make them more diverse instead of just one-trick ponies. No more, "Oh, I'm DPS. That's all I do. You handle the rest of the fight."

[Tammuz.7361]

For pve: nerf cvirt...

Although LM febe would be literally impossible now in that case... so maybe not

Edited May 2 by Tammuz.7361

[Ashantara.8731]

On 4/22/2024 at 2:57 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Just for fun, what would you 'adjust' nerf to lower some power creep on each of the classes?

I would revert everything to how it was 4 years ago. 😉 

[DeceiverX.8361]

Competitive-mode focused but honestly it'd make actually learning mechanics worth it in PvE.  These are overall sweeping changes, less about specific classes but applies to all of them pretty much equally.

Nerfs:
- Mobility - Skill mobility and Superspeed etc.
- Low-cooldown ranged burst patterns to not be OP into the above.
- CC access broad-spectrum
- Delete Concentration
- Remove Alacrity
- Remove all effects which copy/apply mass boons
- Defensive boon access broad-spectrum
- All AoE boon access broad-spectrum
- Increase several expac skill cast times
- Delete Trailblazer gear.
- T7 food.
- Total stats on gear with 4 or more stats.

Buffs:
- Weapon skill coefficients reverted in PvP/WvW - Necessary with lower offensive stats from boon/food/stat losses.
- Reintroduce more %damage traits on core trait lines - Increased parity on extreme-risk-taking.  Requires further  trait line re-balancing.
- Improve healing power scaling on most healing skills and Regeneration - Raise TTK when optionally using direct supportive play/builds and get more natural condition damage resistances following nerfs to accessing Resolution.
- Improved combo finishers and self-set prioritization options for overlaid fields for oneself - Allows players to not be actively punished or sabotaged by others, and reinstates tactical combo field play for larger groups.

Edited May 2 by DeceiverX.8361

[ShadowKatt.6740]

On 5/2/2024 at 9:12 AM, Gorani.7205 said:

3.) Superspeed and Alacrity have been a bad idea. We might be better off without it.

I think you mean Quickness and Alacrity. Superspeed is Superfun and very few things in the game even give it.

[Myror.7521]

My Personal opinion would be ...... To nerf nothing....... the games meta rn is allready filled with very tanky builds. If anything we would need to nerf dmg and sustain sooo boooth and boons of course ^^ (also please remove Superspeed.... )

Edited May 7 by Myror.7521

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 4/30/2024 at 3:49 PM, Sonork.2916 said:

The amount of free boons and utility tacked on through traits is obnoxious, and incredibly hard to play around.  Some classes get infinite uptime or close on these boons which just happen to be the best boons in the game.  Like soul beasts with infinite protection on dodge.  Warriors and now engineers gain resistance on imply dodging, with warriors getting stab and movement impairing effects whenever they use a movement skill.  Cata's gain stab whenever they get an aura.  + a lot more, so much powerful free boons/utility for simply doing the things they do anyways.

This is one of the unfortunate consequences of the simplistic UI.  If the devs want to add functionality they have no choice but to tack it on to an already existing skill.  The more they add, the more bloated skills become.  Whereas with a less restrictive UI you'd simply add a unique skill icon which you can apply limitations to independent of other skills.

[ascii.1369]

I mean not that this is ever gonna happen, but I’m not a big fan of the boon system in general. Unique effects are so much easier to balance, since you can do targeted adjustments on individual skills rather than messing with the entire system every time you want to nerf/buff one thing.

And yes, that means you can’t give alacrity (and the ability to share it) to one single class. But that would actually be a safeguard against developer incompetence. If you gave a unique mechanic to a class so powerful that every group is forced to take that one class for that role, you nerf the mechanic. You don’t make it into a boon and hand it out to everyone.

So I guess that’s what I would do, get rid of the boon system and nerf the resulting unique effects to reduce power creep.

Edited May 7 by ascii.1369

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

When I started this thread, I was expected more of Nerf XYZ skills on these ABC professions type answers.

I absolutely did not expect so much desire to wholesale nerf boons, their upkeep, the stats they give, and even outright removal of some boons from the game.

@Roy Marks.7689, @Cal Cohen.2358 I'm not sure how much of that jive's with y'all's vision, but it is worth considering this sentiment against boons moving forward. Maybe part of the answer is to reverse course on some of those boon strip/rip nerfs? Maybe consider limiting certain boons again to certain classes?

[DeceiverX.8361]

12 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

When I started this thread, I was expected more of Nerf XYZ skills on these ABC professions type answers.

I absolutely did not expect so much desire to wholesale nerf boons, their upkeep, the stats they give, and even outright removal of some boons from the game.

@Roy Marks.7689, @Cal Cohen.2358 I'm not sure how much of that jive's with y'all's vision, but it is worth considering this sentiment against boons moving forward. Maybe part of the answer is to reverse course on some of those boon strip/rip nerfs? Maybe consider limiting certain boons again to certain classes?

Problem is you can't counter boons by bloating strips and corrupts because it still keeps boon builds around and dominant since pretty much everything is still reliant on low-uptime boon skills with the constant removing of unique profession effects.  Like consider stripping a thief of Fury when it has No Quarter slotted, or any effect that gets power from having said boon active.  Now those traits are actively detrimental to run since they have extended downtime of negative value where another option could have been picked, instead.  It's more valuable to just pick the ones which generate new boons.

Further in the context of WvW, boon-denial metas end up discouraging engagements of large groups because repositioning within a fight is inherently riskier and more difficult to pull off.  Large groups find themselves back in pirate ship metas where it becomes too dangerous to commit to anything because essentials like stability aren't reliably available.

The whole system is just rotten to the core in the PvP context.  No tuning around with numbers and trying to improve counters is gonna change that.

Edited May 9 by DeceiverX.8361

[Nash.2681]

Don't play enough PvP/WvW to really care, so I stick to PvE. Imo there are two main construction sites to be tackled. 1) the omnipresence of boons / perma boons  2) the general powercreep of e-specs

How to tackle it? Now this is a tough one. For 1), the two biggest issues I see are quickness and alacrity. But while they push the DPS hard, combat also feels much more fluent with them. So I see two possibilities. Either change their sources in a way, so they can only be provided for short burst windows, or make them baseline and remove them as boons entirely. The first option would add a tactical layer, but combat during downtimes would probably feel rather sluggish. The second would require some hard number tweaking and also some serious E-Spec overhauls. Lots of work. For the rest, less passive boon farting and more active boon generation (e. g. through combos) could help. Oh, and then there's Might. Another mandatory boon pushing the average damage output significantly. Maybe it could get changed in line to the burst window idea. It still stacks, but doesn't do much until the stacks reach a certain threshold. Once reached, you get the option (via SAK or an F-Key) to activate your inner Might and get a significant dmg boost for a few seconds. Only huge problem I see here, is the very similiarity to the concept of the Berserker E-Spec....

For 2) I only see the cheap solution of number tweaking, ideally coupled with some serious reworks, so the feel and flow of a spec feels different enough from the others, but efficiency remains on an even level.

[Sonork.2916]

Also I'd suggest they add higher C/Ds to heal and CC skills across the board.