Who is open world content made for?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

13 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

And that is why jade protocols should not have been nerfed in open world pve so that these 5 people can always actually play DPS and dont need 1-2 of them to play support as that is also non existent.

Are you from NA? 

Because finding dedicated support players is a none issue in EU. 

[Gop.8713]

I think OP has offers a good assessment of the variety of open world content available, but I don't see that as a problem. Story and festivals are the content that is supposed to be 'available to everyone', if open world was not allowed to vary in difficulty it would be incredibly boring. I also agree that there should be another tier of difficulty as well in instanced content, but that doesn't mean all open world content should succeed every time . ..

[asket.5674]

14 hours ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

I hate this mobile game mentality that all open world metas should have a permanent win condition so that pressing one and watching Netflix is meta.

I feel you, especially as Anet seems to counter that with making dmg sponges. I would like to see more engaging/difficult mechanics, phases and less visual clutter but shorter fights. Or at least to shorten fights drastically by executing some complicated mechanic or something. 
i am really looking forward to see, how quick convergences could be done with a leaderboard in mind, imagine 30-40 ppl pulling of 30-40k dps which is not that hard in convergences. 

[bq pd.2148]

5 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Are you from NA? 

Because finding dedicated support players is a none issue in EU. 

often there is enough support in EU, but not always, like when your support people die for not moving a step to the side while taking a lot of damage.
or right after the newest weapons arrived i had several metas with plenty of condi willbenders and no heals/quickness.

[Astralporing.1957]

19 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Eventually the people with mismatched green and blue gears will stop having a fun time constantly failing the meta and give up so people doing more than 5 k dps can take their spot.

Yes. That's how metas like Soo-Won get their higher succes ratio. Most players just gave up on that event. Which brings us back to the original question of this thread: who the open world metas are for? All players, or just the hardcore minority? As i see, you seem to favour the second option. I think, that if game starts demanding higher performance in open world (and not just in content aimed at hardcores, like raids), it should first tell players how to improve that performance. And GW2 is notoriously bad about that (and it being bad at that is not an accident, but is actually part of its core design, so it's pretty much impossible to change).

[asket.5674]

48 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. That's how metas like Soo-Won get their higher succes ratio. Most players just gave up on that event. Which brings us back to the original question of this thread: who the open world metas are for? All players, or just the hardcore minority? As i see, you seem to favour the second option. I think, that if game starts demanding higher performance in open world (and not just in content aimed at hardcores, like raids), it should first tell players how to improve that performance. And GW2 is notoriously bad about that (and it being bad at that is not an accident, but is actually part of its core design, so it's pretty much impossible to change).

Nothing about any meta is hardcore in this game. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

50 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. That's how metas like Soo-Won get their higher succes ratio. Most players just gave up on that event. Which brings us back to the original question of this thread: who the open world metas are for? All players, or just the hardcore minority? As i see, you seem to favour the second option. I think, that if game starts demanding higher performance in open world (and not just in content aimed at hardcores, like raids), it should first tell players how to improve that performance. And GW2 is notoriously bad about that (and it being bad at that is not an accident, but is actually part of its core design, so it's pretty much impossible to change).

You could just use arcdps and see that you're wrong and successful Soo Won squads still have plenty of players contributing not much while a handful of players carry a majority of the damage.  Just like it is in every open world meta.  But you probably gave up on Soo Won within the first couple of months and never went back.  If anything caused players to give up on that meta it's having to spend an hour slogging through boring events to get to it.

[Zok.4956]

12 hours ago, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

Remember the release of Soo Won fight? It was extremely hard with a very low succes rate. They nerved it quite a bit, lots happy, lots sad.
Now Convergences have Challenge Mode... this idea could be done with openworld content too I think. For example the Soo Won fight...
Bring the original harder fight back, call it Challenge Mode... have a portal in Arborstone where squads can open their own map to try challenge mode.

I think this is a good solution and I suggested something similar for the Soo-Won fight back then, shortly after the release of EoD. However, there were some very vocal players who were strictly against it because they felt that this was now "their" challenging open-world boss fight and everyone else had to adapt and become better players.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

  If anything caused players to give up on that meta it's having to spend an hour slogging through boring events to get to it.

Heck, once I started hearing about this I didn't even advance to get to this point.   So, yeah, I gave up before I even got there.

[Raknar.4735]

Probably their main audience according to some statistics.

Also the reason why they don't continue content like raids, as basically no one played them, and those players couldn't sustain any game.

Edited May 28 by Raknar.4735

[asket.5674]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

What would you call an attitude of someone basically saying that 90% of the people doing OW metas should just GTFO is, then?

Thats none of my concern, i would even go farther and would say , if ow content would be harder, the avg player would perform better, bc right now you can brain afk 99% of ow content because the game lets you. Most Ppl chose the way of least resistance and if that way is brain afk button mashing, they will do so. If the game would demand more engagement ppl would play better, i believe in the pug. Ppl complaining here about ow content are a drop of water in the ocean of the sub-5k-dps-croud. Work hard, enjoy hard ( i know, sooo hardcore)

[Trejgon.9367]

The concept of people legitimatelly trying to farm the big meta events, while in stat mismatched greens on lvl 80 characters still kinda blows my mind. Like, the game spams you with rares when you run those things, and if you don't use those rares from thos drops to turn them into materials and gold... what are you doing with this gold to not get anyhow better gear?

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 minutes ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

The concept of people legitimatelly trying to farm the big meta events, while in stat mismatched greens on lvl 80 characters still kinda blows my mind. Like, the game spams you with rares when you run those things, and if you don't use those rares from thos drops to turn them into materials and gold... what are you doing with this gold to not get anyhow better gear?

I'm sure the number of people who actually play this way at max level is exceedingly small.  It's more of a derogatory way of describing the much larger number of people whose build and/or style of play underperform dramatically.  "<5k DPS? How is that even possible?"

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. That's how metas like Soo-Won get their higher succes ratio. Most players just gave up on that event.

Source?

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Which brings us back to the original question of this thread: who the open world metas are for? All players, or just the hardcore minority?

Nothing about that meta is "hardcore" nor are the dps numbers people are talking about here. Players understanding mechanics of the game and having a vague idea about having a coherent build doesn't make them "hardcore" and I don't see anyone/anything here requiring more than that.

 

2 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

If anything caused players to give up on that meta it's having to spend an hour slogging through boring events to get to it.

Yup, agreed.

Edited May 28 by Sobx.1758

[Trejgon.9367]

2 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm sure the number of people who actually play this way at max level is exceedingly small.  It's more of a derogatory way of describing the much larger number of people whose build and/or style of play underperform dramatically.  "<5k DPS? How is that even possible?"

On one side yes, on another side, some people keeps pushing that idea that average player has a "build" like that, or otherwise mismatched stats and seemingly random traits if any traits equipped at all.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

11 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm sure the number of people who actually play this way at max level is exceedingly small.  It's more of a derogatory way of describing the much larger number of people whose build and/or style of play underperform dramatically.  "<5k DPS? How is that even possible?"

Blue weapons, low level armor, no trinkets, random runes, no Sigils etc. 

We had multiple gear check tools in the past. If you actually look what people are wearing, trying to kill for example Soo-Won, you start to question how they even got here. 

Add stuff like not knowing what the dodge button is or keyboard turning and you get to 5k dps. Even so you should do that naked with a lvl 80 weapon going 1111. 

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Even so you should do that naked with a lvl 80 weapon going 1111. 

You clearly do not know how the traits and stats on gear work, and how big impact they have on your dps.

[Cuks.8241]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You clearly do not know how the traits and stats on gear work, and how big impact they have on your dps.

Some healer builds do 5k dps or more. Yes its in an organised squad. But still, heal support builds.

If you wanted your build to not be able to do 5k dps you would need to actually actively avoid dmg stats and traits.

Below 5k dps means youre not pressing buttons, you have lots of downtime often because downed.

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You clearly do not know how the traits and stats on gear work, and how big impact they have on your dps.

I've done naked DPS testing on a variety of builds. Autoattacking can exceed 5k dps on a broad range of builds including LI options. Don't get me wrong, it is very possible to purposefully kitten yourself, but the trait system (assuming that a player is literate) makes it hard if you do at least a bare minimum of reading.

[Cuks.8241]

You can actually roughly compare Eod metas popularity by comparing prices of the statues they drop.

Jade Empress Statuette (Seitung) - 2s

Jade Gate Statuette (Kaineng) - 1g

Jade Cathedral Statuette (Echovald) - 7s

Jade Dragon Statuette (Soo Won) - 17s

SooWon meta is  still way more popular than Kaineng. While the other 2 are more popular by a good margin (especially Seitung). SooWon was actually way more popular in the past. The price of Jade Dragon Statuette a year ago was 2 silver (3 times today's supply on TP) and the supply on TP was double of the supply of Gangwars statuette (so more popular). A huge difference. Soowon statue supply dropped to a third compared to a year ago, Gangwar is pretty much stable. I guess Soto changed player's OW habbits and SooWon is very time consuming. But I don't think it's the difficulty, nothing changed compared to a year ago, we even had lot's of power creep. I think it's the time commitment. 

I see quite some meta trains include SooWon as the last meta. If you have hard time finding groups for it I would recommend you also check the Echovald LFG 20 min before start. You might find a Gangwars - SooWon meta train there. These trains just go for it right after Gangwars, without any prep. So you avoid any boring preparation. 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

9 hours ago, asket.5674 said:

Nothing about any meta is hardcore in this game. 

Teq and TT used to be fill that niche until hot power creep. Almost every hot meta filled that niche until player got good. This was followed by dragons end. This is the next iteration of that until the next xpacs power creep. 

I suspect the next xpac will add a new system involving jewelery 500 that will open accessible to the old content so the unwashed masses can still complete it.

[Astralporing.1957]

31 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Some healer builds do 5k dps or more. Yes its in an organised squad. But still, heal support builds.

Full ascended, primary power with full boons. So, more than a still so very popular full soldier setup (which would have the same power stat, but next to no boons because no organized squad. And likely on exotics, not ascended as well). And that's still a decent option compared to what many of OW players run.

[Cuks.8241]

9 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

I think this is a good solution and I suggested something similar for the Soo-Won fight back then, shortly after the release of EoD. However, there were some very vocal players who were strictly against it because they felt that this was now "their" challenging open-world boss fight and everyone else had to adapt and become better players.

I would introduce challenge mode meta events and world bosses that can be started anytime by a guild (maybe once per week per boss). A nice guild challenge. They could still be in open world, just marked as super hard events. I think it would be even better if they weren't a separate instance, more fun. I'm not a fan of too many instances if not needed, ow is where most things should happen in mmorpg.

But these would need to be a lot harder than Soo Won meta to pose a real guild challenge. It would be something for guilds to test their mettle. We're really missing proper pve guild activities in this game. I mean raids are fun but one of the best times I had in mmorpgs (outside of pvp modes) were really challenging guild wide or even multiple guild activities in form of huge, hard open world bosses.  

[Cuks.8241]

14 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Full ascended, primary power with full boons. So, more than a still so very popular full soldier setup (which would have the same power stat, but next to no boons because no organized squad. And likely on exotics, not ascended as well). And that's still a decent option compared to what many of OW players run.

Yes stat wise Soldier's is comparable to something like Harrier. But you're forgetting weapon choice and actual build. Healer supports will not incorporate many if any offensive traits. Also their rotations or priorities are primarily on keeping up boons and dmg is the last priority.

I mean build and gear are important but not when we're talking 5k dps. In that range I think the problems come from elsewhere which is mostly just very basic mechanics. 

Also today in large events boons aren't really the problem anymore. We had so much boon overload lately, everyone spewing boons left and right, it's actually highly likely you will have a very good boon uptime. Just check your boon bar in a meta.

 

P.S. I also think meta events like SooWon actually helped many players with squad composition awareness. You never saw support roles mentioned in ow before it. And now it's not so out of place that comm actually asks if there are any supports out there. Last meta or convergences are also good indication. Comms will ask for alacs and quicks to pull into their subgroups. And out of the blue you have 20 players that actually play boon supports in ow (which is a great choice btw, because providing boons in ow is the biggest carry you can do).

Edited May 28 by Cuks.8241

[leila.7962]

I feel like if Anet has mainly three standards on open world content.. it's either like Grothmar Valley, Auric Basin or Dragon's End. One that people can just hop in and do it with barely any explanation, one that require a small but needed organization from players and one that you really need a more organized group. The majority of the open world content falls under the Grothmar or AB standards..and a very small portion of it falls under Dragon's End standards.

The thing is, every map that came after the core game is meant for someone that reached level 80 in one character at least. With that in mind, easy to join in and always win metas will get old fast. People enjoy the sense of doing harder things and getting better. I think Anet tries to balance things out so no one is left out, but people who want comfort content that they can do at any time of the day without organization get a large portion of the open world content that is released. So sometimes, they give players a more challenging meta, that will require some organization, which I think its very healthy to teach players about builds, roles, organized play.

Most of the harder metas were quite messy at their release but people manage to do it after a while. There are very few metas or open world content that will fail without proper organization but most of GW2 open world content is meant for people to succeed. I honestly don't like the idea of the player always winning, because when they they don't, they don't accept that as part of a game.

Edited May 28 by leila.7962