Problem with matchmaking in Restructure - incentive to not play

[bq pd.2148]

46 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

We kinda had that with the old outnumbered buff, but then people started gaming it

Maybe the game should give you a pity system if you've been on a losing server for too long lol.

i think rewarding the losing side always risks people trying to underperform each other.

but one could even the pip rewards at least so that you don't miss 2 pips when your team is last as opposed to first in the active skirmish.

[Junkpile.7439]

Rewards are kitten too and has always been. Every reward track is kitten, tickets lame and pointless after while , same frigging reward skins forever, very mucho warclaw skins, wvw rank doesn't give you kitten, no any kind of player statistics and so on. 🤦‍♂️

[Ronin.4501]

23 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Not saying wrong per say but ouch!

I told my havoc we float since I want to see what it looks like. Created a comm guild in case needed but not used yet. Trying to see what, who, when and what this all looks like. Kind of like a mini-vacation. Been interesting. Likewise been adding more havocs and roamers to friends. Pugmanding is the same, matter of getting players to ID tags and get used to moving together. In any case it adds variety to the normal day in and day out minus peeps you know what they would do.

What can I say my alliance guild runs sweaty. They want to see who's contributing in the fights and who isn't. And don't me wrong, they know everyone's not perfect. But who's trying and who isn't? That's what they're really looking at. And tbh so far we're mostly rolling over everyone else in our match-up. But they're looking for the players who want to improve. The ones who are willing to run comp and willing to learn. It's not for everyone, but so far we've got 11 guilds and 350+ members and I'd say at least 95% of the guild is on board with this approach. I've talked to a lot of friends in other alliances and most of them say their alliances suck and they're looking for something else come next round. But our guild we're all getting along, the leaders are working together and everyone is having a great time and a lot of fun...which tbh is something that's been missing for a lot of us in WvW these past few (several) years.

[Ronin.4501]

10 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Yea you can't exactly be like "You must wake up to PPT or else we'll sue you". This isn't Blizzard after all.

We kinda had that with the old outnumbered buff, but then people started gaming it and even started scolding people for coming to the map and getting rid of it lol, so kitten's tough.

I suppose they thought of the volunteer mechnaic but that still just led to stacking.

Maybe the game should give you a pity system if you've been on a losing server for too long lol. Problem is that WvWers want content and they have a sense of pride so rewards only helps a little bit.

I mean, sure you do want to enforce comp and stuff, but I am not sure how you are evaluating the other side of the performance (arcdps logs maybe?). There's a lot of variance.

Also I suppose people should be given an easier role if they can't do well in one.

That's exactly it for us plus video review. ArcDPS will tell what skills players are using and a lot of other useful information, plus we do a lot of video review. Who's on tag, who isn't, who's squirreling when the commander is calling for a stack, etc. Most of us record the fights so we're constantly doing peer review as well.

Edited June 20 by Ronin.4501

[Cyninja.2954]

45 minutes ago, Ronin.4501 said:

What can I say my alliance guild runs sweaty. They want to see who's contributing in the fights and who isn't. And don't me wrong, they know everyone's not perfect. But who's trying and who isn't? That's what they're really looking at. And tbh so far we're mostly rolling over everyone else in our match-up. But they're looking for the players who want to improve. The ones who are willing to run comp and willing to learn. It's not for everyone, but so far we've got 11 guilds and 350+ members and I'd say at least 95% of the guild is on board with this approach. I've talked to a lot of friends in other alliances and most of them say their alliances suck and they're looking for something else come next round. But our guild we're all getting along, the leaders are working together and everyone is having a great time and a lot of fun...which tbh is something that's been missing for a lot of us in WvW these past few (several) years.

and that is how it should be. Now as this week ends and another begins, some better working shards will move up, some will stagnate, some will move down. Bringing more equal game play to the match ups, similar to how this was in the past, the main difference being: every player is now in control of their WvW experience and server stacking is no longer a thing.

As the algorithm hopefully gets improved (if it gets improved), some of the issues currently will be mitigated. What we will see eventually is similar play-styles meet 1-2 weeks after shard creation.

What we hopefully won't see any longer is severe over-stacking of a few select servers.

- Now as far as K/D, there are some outlier tiers which completely blow out with 1 server dominating the others, especially on EU.

- As far as PPT though, most tiers are very close to each other (again with Tier 6 in EU being an exception).

- As far as activity overall across tiers, it's way WAY better distributed now. That's something which will be of large significance as more similar shards get paired to fight each other

As to unsocial players, well they will struggle more in the current system. That's natural and not something that needs to be combated. Maybe some of those players will decide to stop being kitten once their in game experience actually suffers (or maybe they enjoy kittening off new players every few weeks, who knows).

EDIT:

and as far as the mass exodus due to home servers being gone, still waiting on that to happen. I'm sure some players will quit over this just as I am sure that if day-to-day game play, activity and fun increases/stabilizes, many will find a way to associate with their alliance/guild instead. That's what it is about in the end: game play fun.

Edited June 20 by Cyninja.2954

[Zok.4956]

2 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

What can I say my alliance guild runs sweaty. They want to see who's contributing in the fights and who isn't. And don't me wrong, they know everyone's not perfect. But who's trying and who isn't? That's what they're really looking at. And tbh so far we're mostly rolling over everyone else in our match-up. (...) and they're looking for something else come next round.

That was one of the early predictions of the WR: There will be a separation of the player mix and a concentration on a few fight alliances in which players are rated and have to prove themselves (to the guild leadership) and the casual alliances will become worse and worse and will lose more and more players and be less and less able to keep up.

I'm not saying that it's wrong for guilds/players to focus just on fights. But WvW will change significantly from what it was before. Good for the players who like this different WvW better.

[Cyninja.2954]

10 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

That was one of the early predictions of the WR: There will be a separation of the player mix and a concentration on a few fight alliances in which players are rated and have to prove themselves (to the guild leadership) and the casual alliances will become worse and worse and will lose more and more players and be less and less able to keep up.

I'm not saying that it's wrong for guilds/players to focus just on fights. But WvW will change significantly from what it was before. Good for the players who like this different WvW better.

Not an issue given the up/down system.

Better organized players/shards should move to the top (if this is fight alliances or ppt alliances, time will tell. This is where a proper designed scoring system becomes more important compared to the past)., as organization and commitment falls off, shards are placed in middle and lower tiers. The main issue is the first 1-2 weeks after shard creation (similar to how relinks reshuffled this every 8 weeks). The main difference is players can now choose and have it in their control what type of WvW content they seek.

If everything works out, more engaged/"sweaty" guilds/alliances will start meeting similar opponents, just like more casual and smaller guilds will meet similar opponents.

[Zok.4956]

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If everything works out

I don't disagree with what you wrote. But given the track record so far, I think it's highly unlikely that everything will work out. Time will tell.

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Not an issue given the up/down system.

Better organized players/shards should move to the top (if this is fight alliances or ppt alliances, time will tell. This is where a proper designed scoring system becomes more important compared to the past)., as organization and commitment falls off, shards are placed in middle and lower tiers. The main issue is the first 1-2 weeks after shard creation (similar to how relinks reshuffled this every 8 weeks). The main difference is players can now choose and have it in their control what type of WvW content they seek.

If everything works out, more engaged/"sweaty" guilds/alliances will start meeting similar opponents, just like more casual and smaller guilds will meet similar opponents.

This is where I want to see where they are going with scoring. Because sometimes sweaty just means zerg. And counters to zergs are havocs/roamers. So if they lean scoring into zerg is the only way, not good.  

[XenesisII.1540]

Fair weathers is a problem for any game. You have to keep players motivated somehow in a losing cause, which most games tend to ignore and just favor the winners. And while winners should be rewarded for their effort, it should still be a fun experience for everyone involved, it is still a game after all. And for wvw at the core it's the combat that will provide this experience.

Wvw has always suffered from the numbers game, in the beginning maybe not so much when many servers could run 4 map queues through the day, but we're 12 years into this, and it gets harder to keep players around if things aren't fun enough, and no, stuffing your bags with more rewards just isn't enough to do this either. Now on top of that we also have to deal with those numbers running in boon balls. And sure in the early days maybe it wasn't so different that organize groups could farm with ease, but there was always a feeling of having a chance you could still beat them in some way somehow, with boon balls this feeling has lessen quite a lot to the point it's like just move and ignore them.... while the overlords try to change all these surrounding mechanics to try and get people to engage in fights again, but completely ignoring the major problem, their bloated combat system.

There is a reason why commanders do certain things too for motivation purposes, long ago it was decided that spawn camping was stupid and just killed an entire sides motivation to log on to that map or even the match, and what good does that really do for you or anyone else when you completely kill the content? So they stopped doing spawn camping on the regular, of course a more recent certain server couldn't help themselves, to the point that even some of their team mates got tired of it and moved off. But we still have stupid groups that want to park in keeps and pug farm, challenging for them I suppose, it's just another way to spawn camp.

Some commanders go and cap an empty tower after losing a big battle in order to get a "win", and keep their players motivations up for the next fight. PvP is a serious of ups and downs, and both the players and the system need to try and help keep players engaged in a fun experience. These are things players can do to keep players engaged. The system on the other hand...

Overwhelming snowball effects is terrible to have unless the match is very short and reset will happen quickly, such as in battlegrounds match which can be 10-20mins worth of play of winner take all, or even spvp which is what 7-10 mins worth of play, but you can reset and can move on to the next match with new players if the snowballing was too much. But for wvw, which is an ongoing 24/7 match, it's a terrible thing to have, it encourages dead zones of play too often. Boon blob demolishing your side? well time to check another map, oh those are dead too, well guess I'll go do something else entirely.

There's a lot of things in wvw now that discourages players from playing the game, from not having that fun experience, and frankly it's shifted toward to mostly rewarding a certain group of players so they can "feel good". Stacking more is rewarded more, stacking meta is rewarded more, stacking with a another side to smack the weakest side is rewarded more.

There needs to be mechanics in place to go after stacking, to go after the strongest on the map, I've said it multiple times before, I've mentioned suggestions before and I'm not going to rehash it because no one listens. But if you want players to stay and play, they need to know they have a chance to get a favorable outcome, and more importantly they are having fun doing this. The only times this tends to really happen these days is when pugs vs pugs is happening over something like smc, where no sweaty boon ball is involved, they're like the cops that come to crash the college party cause some scout filed a noise complaint, then everyone runs from the popo.

Maybe the upcoming "scoring changes" will do something for this, but frankly I have no confidence in anet understanding the problems of wvw at this point, not with the way they balance classes, not to whom they've been listening to for recent wvw changes, I hope they can prove me wrong but I really doubt it. They do not care about the game mode. They hand out cheap rewards and think that just solves everything to keep everyone engaged and happy.

Personally I don't care about rewards, digital rewards are meaningless if you're not actually having fun in obtaining them. Anet and the players need to question why players leave, why they are not having fun. Fun doesn't need to always be experienced at the expense of someone elses, we all should be having fun winning or losing, we all should be "feeling good" about the experience, and the "game" should be a place to provide it for everyone. While this may be a daunting task for a mmo, there are still a few basic things that could be done to try for it, at very least stop encouraging stacking and snowballing for winners.

Go ahead insert your tldr confused -->

Edited June 20 by XenesisII.1540

[lindstroem.3601]

40 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Fair weathers is a problem for any game. You have to keep players motivated somehow in a losing cause, which most games tend to ignore and just favor the winners. And while winners should be rewarded for their effort, it should still be a fun experience for everyone involved, it is still a game after all. And for wvw at the core it's the combat that will provide this experience.

Wvw has always suffered from the numbers game, in the beginning maybe not so much when many servers could run 4 map queues through the day, but we're 12 years into this, and it gets harder to keep players around if things aren't fun enough, and no, stuffing your bags with more rewards just isn't enough to do this either. Now on top of that we also have to deal with those numbers running in boon balls. And sure in the early days maybe it wasn't so different that organize groups could farm with ease, but there was always a feeling of having a chance you could still beat them in some way somehow, with boon balls this feeling has lessen quite a lot to the point it's like just move and ignore them.... while the overlords try to change all these surrounding mechanics to try and get people to engage in fights again, but completely ignoring the major problem, their bloated combat system.

There is a reason why commanders do certain things too for motivation purposes, long ago it was decided that spawn camping was stupid and just killed an entire sides motivation to log on to that map or even the match, and what good does that really do for you or anyone else when you completely kill the content? So they stopped doing spawn camping on the regular, of course a more recent certain server couldn't help themselves, to the point that even some of their team mates got tired of it and moved off. But we still have stupid groups that want to park in keeps and pug farm, challenging for them I suppose, it's just another way to spawn camp.

Some commanders go and cap an empty tower after losing a big battle in order to get a "win", and keep their players motivations up for the next fight. PvP is a serious of ups and downs, and both the players and the system need to try and help keep players engaged in a fun experience. These are things players can do to keep players engaged. The system on the other hand...

Overwhelming snowball effects is terrible to have unless the match is very short and reset will happen quickly, such as in battlegrounds match which can be 10-20mins worth of play of winner take all, or even spvp which is what 7-10 mins worth of play, but you can reset and can move on to the next match with new players if the snowballing was too much. But for wvw, which is an ongoing 24/7 match, it's a terrible thing to have, it encourages dead zones of play too often. Boon blob demolishing your side? well time to check another map, oh those are dead too, well guess I'll go do something else entirely.

There's a lot of things in wvw now that discourages players from playing the game, from not having that fun experience, and frankly it's shifted toward to mostly rewarding a certain group of players so they can "feel good". Stacking more is rewarded more, stacking meta is rewarded more, stacking with a another side to smack the weakest side is rewarded more.

There needs to be mechanics in place to go after stacking, to go after the strongest on the map, I've said it multiple times before, I've mentioned suggestions before and I'm not going to rehash it because no one listens. But if you want players to stay and play, they need to know they have a chance to get a favorable outcome, and more importantly they are having fun doing this. The only times this tends to really happen these days is when pugs vs pugs is happening over something like smc, where no sweaty boon ball is involved, they're like the cops that come to crash the college party cause some scout filed a noise complaint, then everyone runs from the popo.

Maybe the upcoming "scoring changes" will do something for this, but frankly I have no confidence in anet understanding the problems of wvw at this point, not with the way they balance classes, not to whom they've been listening to for recent wvw changes, I hope they can prove me wrong but I really doubt it. They do not care about the game mode.

Personally I don't care about rewards, digital rewards are meaningless if you're not actually having fun in obtaining them. Anet and the players need to question why players leave, why they are not having fun. Fun doesn't need to always be experienced at the expense of someone elses, we all should be having fun winning or losing, we all should be "feeling good" about the experience, and the "game" should be a place to provide it for everyone. While this may be a daunting task for a mmo, there are still a few basic things that could be done to try for it, at very least stop encouraging stacking and snowballing for winners.

Go ahead insert your tldr confused -->

Exactly all those things the system has to take into consideration:

- Who are the fair weather players who are only show up to karma train

- Who are the commited wvw players who are keep trying also in taff matchups.

- Who are the roamers

- Who likes organized boon balls

- Who likes both

- Who are  ppt commanders

- Who are fight commanders (and providing open tags)

And contribute all those type of players equally on servers. This is even the minimal(!!!) things to consider to get a somehow balanced matchup over all tiers. If the system isnt even able to that, the system is up to fail. 

Edited June 20 by lindstroem.3601

[Chaba.5410]

9 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

That was one of the early predictions of the WR: There will be a separation of the player mix and a concentration on a few fight alliances in which players are rated and have to prove themselves (to the guild leadership) and the casual alliances will become worse and worse and will lose more and more players and be less and less able to keep up.

I'm not saying that it's wrong for guilds/players to focus just on fights. But WvW will change significantly from what it was before. Good for the players who like this different WvW better.

Just because an alliance is sweaty doesn't mean it will win matches.  Ronin's team is in 2nd in it's match.  Alliances that are built with a better player mix are going to be favored by the scoring system.  In the days of the server meta game, coverage was always a premium purchase.

Edited June 20 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Fair weathers is a problem for any game. You have to keep players motivated somehow in a losing cause, which most games tend to ignore and just favor the winners. And while winners should be rewarded for their effort, it should still be a fun experience for everyone involved, it is still a game after all. And for wvw at the core it's the combat that will provide this experience.

Wvw has always suffered from the numbers game, in the beginning maybe not so much when many servers could run 4 map queues through the day, but we're 12 years into this, and it gets harder to keep players around if things aren't fun enough, and no, stuffing your bags with more rewards just isn't enough to do this either.

In the beginning, servers were not ossified ancient relics where everyone knew what they'd be getting.

It hasn't been fun for a long time being able to predict ahead of time how your team is going to perform against another team.  Like how everyone predictably would stop playing when they knew they'd get Maguuma in a match.  That's boredom, not fun.

[TheGrimm.5624]

22 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Just because an alliance is sweaty doesn't mean it will win matches.  Ronin's team is in 2nd in it's match.  Alliances that are built with a better player mix are going to be favored by the scoring system.  In the days of the server meta game, coverage was always a premium purchase.

To expand on this coverage is also a matter of time and place. If a server is stacking one map and not all 4 that's an issue. Same as on a map, if they are rolling together and not facing all the fights versus just a single one that's an issue. That's even outside of covering various time zones. WvW is about all scales of play. Granted we don't have reasons to win, yet.

[Cuks.8241]

On 6/20/2024 at 10:48 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

and that is how it should be. Now as this week ends and another begins, some better working shards will move up, some will stagnate, some will move down. Bringing more equal game play to the match ups, similar to how this was in the past, the main difference being: every player is now in control of their WvW experience and server stacking is no longer a thing.

The only problem is that sweaty guilds often dont play for score at all. At least the ones that Ive played with but I think that is quite common.

So some other metric will have to be taken into account.

But I also think things will settle down. Now were in a hype phase, many new players in guild trying to prove themselves. Full squads all over the place at least in our tier.

[Leaa.2943]

We also need to remember that Arena Net thought that adding a new tier in EU and NA would be a good thing. That was wrong in so many ways. In EU we asked them to remove tier 5 for so long because there was not enough links nor enough population. Somehow Arena Net seem to belive that Worldrestruction would bring back old WvW players and there for we would need another tier, but all of us WvW player already knew that beta brought players because of the buff that attracted PvE players. No buff, no invasions of PvE player and well the comback of old WvW players did not really happen either since the alliances was never added, only worldrestruction and shuffling of servers. The fact that Arena Net also nerfed defense towards structures to the ground and buff offense of structures to tip the scale even further  where players feel there is no reason to even try to defenf when the 80 man enemy blobs runs in to the keep/tower and then 10 of them on their outnumbered border  can only watch. 

 

Result of yet another tier added  is that several of the world/servers or what ever it is called now, lack on players and others are over populated. Reset happen in EU just now and it seem to be yet another week of my server/world totally rolling over less populated which result in them leaving fast because reset is suppose to be fun and being farmed on reset is usually not why people log in so my server have que on all borders except red and enemies told us they have none to very little que. 

So if Arena Net had listen to us about tiers where we said for the longest time that the only reason betas been so populated is because of the buff that bring PvE to WvW, then we would not have yet another tier added and other worlds lacking players. Maybe it would have been a more healthy situation with better interactions then now in the lower tiers in EU.

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 6/19/2024 at 3:31 PM, bq pd.2148 said:

i think rewarding the losing side always risks people trying to underperform each other.

but one could even the pip rewards at least so that you don't miss 2 pips when your team is last as opposed to first in the active skirmish.

Well, we could increase the base pips by a bit so missing 2 isn't as big of a deal. We did it before to help new players, and many WvWers feel like they don't make any gold. (especially if defending or whatnot)

[joneirikb.7506]

6 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Well, we could increase the base pips by a bit so missing 2 isn't as big of a deal. We did it before to help new players, and many WvWers feel like they don't make any gold. (especially if defending or whatnot)

I don't really like this idea.
* Most players just aren't going to play if they're losing, and +1 pip isn't "visual" enough to make them reconsider.
* It honestly just washes out rewards in a way that it doesn't feel like it matters what you do.

If we're going for rewards, I think I'd rather want to see them focus on individual rewards for doing stuff/pull some kind of objective that is relevant to wvw as a whole. It's a difficult topic. Something that you can do while outnumbered, that can actually help in points? Say that the Outnumbered effect, gave you some bonuses for actually capturing or defending camps/scouts/yaks etc?

[DemonSeed.3528]

On 6/21/2024 at 2:49 AM, XenesisII.1540 said:

Fair weathers is a problem for any game. You have to keep players motivated somehow in a losing cause, which most games tend to ignore and just favor the winners. And while winners should be rewarded for their effort, it should still be a fun experience for everyone involved, it is still a game after all. And for wvw at the core it's the combat that will provide this experience.

Wvw has always suffered from the numbers game, in the beginning maybe not so much when many servers could run 4 map queues through the day, but we're 12 years into this, and it gets harder to keep players around if things aren't fun enough, and no, stuffing your bags with more rewards just isn't enough to do this either. Now on top of that we also have to deal with those numbers running in boon balls. And sure in the early days maybe it wasn't so different that organize groups could farm with ease, but there was always a feeling of having a chance you could still beat them in some way somehow, with boon balls this feeling has lessen quite a lot to the point it's like just move and ignore them.... while the overlords try to change all these surrounding mechanics to try and get people to engage in fights again, but completely ignoring the major problem, their bloated combat system.

There is a reason why commanders do certain things too for motivation purposes, long ago it was decided that spawn camping was stupid and just killed an entire sides motivation to log on to that map or even the match, and what good does that really do for you or anyone else when you completely kill the content? So they stopped doing spawn camping on the regular, of course a more recent certain server couldn't help themselves, to the point that even some of their team mates got tired of it and moved off. But we still have stupid groups that want to park in keeps and pug farm, challenging for them I suppose, it's just another way to spawn camp.

Some commanders go and cap an empty tower after losing a big battle in order to get a "win", and keep their players motivations up for the next fight. PvP is a serious of ups and downs, and both the players and the system need to try and help keep players engaged in a fun experience. These are things players can do to keep players engaged. The system on the other hand...

Overwhelming snowball effects is terrible to have unless the match is very short and reset will happen quickly, such as in battlegrounds match which can be 10-20mins worth of play of winner take all, or even spvp which is what 7-10 mins worth of play, but you can reset and can move on to the next match with new players if the snowballing was too much. But for wvw, which is an ongoing 24/7 match, it's a terrible thing to have, it encourages dead zones of play too often. Boon blob demolishing your side? well time to check another map, oh those are dead too, well guess I'll go do something else entirely.

There's a lot of things in wvw now that discourages players from playing the game, from not having that fun experience, and frankly it's shifted toward to mostly rewarding a certain group of players so they can "feel good". Stacking more is rewarded more, stacking meta is rewarded more, stacking with a another side to smack the weakest side is rewarded more.

There needs to be mechanics in place to go after stacking, to go after the strongest on the map, I've said it multiple times before, I've mentioned suggestions before and I'm not going to rehash it because no one listens. But if you want players to stay and play, they need to know they have a chance to get a favorable outcome, and more importantly they are having fun doing this. The only times this tends to really happen these days is when pugs vs pugs is happening over something like smc, where no sweaty boon ball is involved, they're like the cops that come to crash the college party cause some scout filed a noise complaint, then everyone runs from the popo.

Maybe the upcoming "scoring changes" will do something for this, but frankly I have no confidence in anet understanding the problems of wvw at this point, not with the way they balance classes, not to whom they've been listening to for recent wvw changes, I hope they can prove me wrong but I really doubt it. They do not care about the game mode. They hand out cheap rewards and think that just solves everything to keep everyone engaged and happy.

Personally I don't care about rewards, digital rewards are meaningless if you're not actually having fun in obtaining them. Anet and the players need to question why players leave, why they are not having fun. Fun doesn't need to always be experienced at the expense of someone elses, we all should be having fun winning or losing, we all should be "feeling good" about the experience, and the "game" should be a place to provide it for everyone. While this may be a daunting task for a mmo, there are still a few basic things that could be done to try for it, at very least stop encouraging stacking and snowballing for winners.

Go ahead insert your tldr confused -->

I think if you just take away all the little details it just becomes "big bully bullying the weak" game mode xd

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 6/20/2024 at 4:41 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Not an issue given the up/down system.

Better organized players/shards should move to the top (if this is fight alliances or ppt alliances, time will tell. This is where a proper designed scoring system becomes more important compared to the past)., as organization and commitment falls off, shards are placed in middle and lower tiers. The main issue is the first 1-2 weeks after shard creation (similar to how relinks reshuffled this every 8 weeks). The main difference is players can now choose and have it in their control what type of WvW content they seek.

If everything works out, more engaged/"sweaty" guilds/alliances will start meeting similar opponents, just like more casual and smaller guilds will meet similar opponents.

Except, they won't.  Because PPK does not compete with PPT.  So, what you get is a world that wins the match on PPT alone, while the world with the 2.0 KDR all week does nothing but sit in SMC farming kills/bags.  Sweaty is rewarded even further by staying in the lower tiers where they are less likely to run into another sweaty.  Sound familiar, it should.  Because this is what people have been doing for years, transfer to lower tiers for easier wins or not bother with PPT accomplishing the same thing.  This describes tier 3 NA for week 1, and it isn't the only example.  And sure, after a week or 2 sweaty might end up winning a match and moving up, because it just happens, but not after a few weeks in lower tiers and by then...worlds reshuffle again.  The only way to get the ultra-organized groups to fight each other is to remove PPT altogether.  But that is never going to happen.  It should, because taking empty buildings when no one is on should not win matches, but, it won't.

Edited June 22 by MedievalThings.5417

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, DemonSeed.3528 said:

I think if you just take away all the little details it just becomes "big bully bullying the weak" game mode xd

Pretty much, they continue to strip away all the little parts of wvw mode, moving everything towards just fights, their ultimate goal is to just have groups fighting in lords room, everything else is now an inconvenience. Mode has always been a big bully simulator, more so now with this balance..

Edited June 22 by XenesisII.1540

[SweetPotato.7456]

Blanket accusation, you need to provide team/shard, time, date, location, play style and how many minutes/hours/days have you observe this alleged problem. 

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, MedievalThings.5417 said:

Except, they won't.  Because PPK does not compete with PPT.  So, what you get is a world that wins the match on PPT alone, while the world with the 2.0 KDR all week does nothing but sit in SMC farming kills/bags.  Sweaty is rewarded even further by staying in the lower tiers where they are less likely to run into another sweaty.  Sound familiar, it should.  Because this is what people have been doing for years, transfer to lower tiers for easier wins or not bother with PPT accomplishing the same thing.  This describes tier 3 NA for week 1, and it isn't the only example.  And sure, after a week or 2 sweaty might end up winning a match and moving up, because it just happens, but not after a few weeks in lower tiers and by then...worlds reshuffle again.  The only way to get the ultra-organized groups to fight each other is to remove PPT altogether.  But that is never going to happen.  It should, because taking empty buildings when no one is on should not win matches, but, it won't.

Okay, now follow that thought process to the end.

If PPT is superior to PPK, what happens? The PPT servers move to the top (similar to how overstacked servers were stuck in T1) and the PPK servers fall off. Now PPT servers meet other PPT servers at the top, and PPK servers meet other PPK servers in the mid field. Unless the PPK servers start doing more PPT, which leads to at least some pure PPK players taking a break which weakens their blob (plus, it's inefficient to blob to PPT to begin with).

So, how is this not addressed?

Edited June 22 by Cyninja.2954

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, MedievalThings.5417 said:

Except, they won't.  Because PPK does not compete with PPT.  So, what you get is a world that wins the match on PPT alone, while the world with the 2.0 KDR all week does nothing but sit in SMC farming kills/bags.  Sweaty is rewarded even further by staying in the lower tiers where they are less likely to run into another sweaty.  Sound familiar, it should.  Because this is what people have been doing for years, transfer to lower tiers for easier wins or not bother with PPT accomplishing the same thing.  This describes tier 3 NA for week 1, and it isn't the only example.  And sure, after a week or 2 sweaty might end up winning a match and moving up, because it just happens, but not after a few weeks in lower tiers and by then...worlds reshuffle again.  The only way to get the ultra-organized groups to fight each other is to remove PPT altogether.  But that is never going to happen.  It should, because taking empty buildings when no one is on should not win matches, but, it won't.

That still wouldn't work. PPT is meant to split both zergs and PPK blobs. Its just right now PPK blobs have no reason to do so since there is no reason to win, same as zergs. When you look at the first week groups rose or fell based on how much they were willing to do both. A number of "servers" had high PPT but lost since they just tried to run in a mass. Scoring still needs players to, fight and win, take, and hold, all at the same time. Not just pick and choose. Which means use the numbers where and when needed not just all be in the same spot.

Again which is why we need to watch for Anet's blog on scoring changes.