Do CC weapons belong in open world?

[Fipmip.7219]

trying to make a hammer guardian work and well, it really sucks just getting bogged down by mobs and being unable to kill them asap, or just doing such mid dps to bosses. I feel like anet really needs to start an initiative to add damage to these weapons in pve.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

CC weapons are great for those that have not trained their Raptor or Springer mounts engage skills yet. During longer champion/legendary mob fights, CC weapons absolutely have a place in erasing a breakbar.

Guardian Hammer though has all its damage locked in the AA chain and Mighty Blow. I like the feel of Guardian Hammer, but if you are looking to burst things down, take a greatsword in your other weapon set.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Breakbars are a thing. In fact, average open world players don't even bring enough CC in their toolkit; just look at how slow Sorrow's/the Nayos wyvern's breakbar decreases. The damage can be neglected when the Exposed debuff gives +50% damage increase.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Warrior Hammer is amazing in Openworld. 

But that's because of all the on cc synergy Warrior has. 

[Teknomancer.4895]

11 minutes ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

average open world players don't even bring enough CC in their toolkit

Very much this, and I don't understand it. I mostly do OW myself and when I jump into events etc. it seems like the only CC most other players ever use is the Kangabunny Cannonball opener. It makes me wonder how they handle solo encounters without anything else to deal with those bars. 🤔 

I main Mesmer so there's plenty available to me almost without trying, but on my other classes I always make sure to have at least something.

[WingSwipe.3084]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Warrior Hammer is amazing in Openworld. 

But that's because of all the on cc synergy Warrior has. 

Agreed, you can play core warrior and enjoy things with hammer.

[AliamRationem.5172]

Ranger maces are really nice for open world.  It has 2 hard CCs and you can use them twice for 4 total.  If untamed you also have a soft CC immobilize on your ambush.  Damage is quite good and you hit 5 targets with everything except the AA.  They also add barrier, healing, and a slew of defensive boons.  Pretty much perfect for open world.

[Tinker.6924]

The EMP ability from Portable United Legions Workstations does 300 breakbar dmg and that plus whatever you normally have is generally overkill for open world content.

Also most abilities that cause CC-related conditions will do defiance bar damage even if its not listed on the tooltip.  Look here: 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_Break and expand the "List of skills that are missing Defiance Break tooltip values".   You can also experiment on the Training Dummy in the "Special Forces Training Room" in the Lion's Arch Aerodrome.  Put a breakbar on it and watch the bar drop even when not using abilities with breakbar damage on the tooltip.

Edited July 25 by Tinker.6924

[Fipmip.7219]

16 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

Breakbars are a thing. In fact, average open world players don't even bring enough CC in their toolkit; just look at how slow Sorrow's/the Nayos wyvern's breakbar decreases. The damage can be neglected when the Exposed debuff gives +50% damage increase.

as others have pointed out, breakbars aren't exactly difficult to do in most open world content. You certainly dont need a weapon that focuses on it.

 

So why use hammer or mace on guardian when doing open world? and you know what, scratch just open world. what about pve in general? I like those weapons as a concept, they feel right for that class. but in practice you do no dps and feel bad. I wish I could hear the class designers thoughts on the matter. CC isnt really a priority in pve.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

20 minutes ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

as others have pointed out, breakbars aren't exactly difficult to do in most open world content. You certainly dont need a weapon that focuses on it.

 

So why use hammer or mace on guardian when doing open world? and you know what, scratch just open world. what about pve in general? I like those weapons as a concept, they feel right for that class. but in practice you do no dps and feel bad. I wish I could hear the class designers thoughts on the matter. CC isnt really a priority in pve.

Mace isn't really a CC weapon on Guardian, it's very much defense and healing mostly. If you're going for max sustain mace can be worth it for open world- just don't often need that level of sustain. 

[Fipmip.7219]

50 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Mace isn't really a CC weapon on Guardian, it's very much defense and healing mostly. If you're going for max sustain mace can be worth it for open world- just don't often need that level of sustain. 

ah yeah sorry its been so long since i touched mace on guardian. conflated it with warrior mace haha

[Dadnir.5038]

I would say that CC weapons can belong to any gamemode as long as they are properly used. Poorly used, they can be an annoyance for both you and your teammates.

[Panda.1967]

The only problem with CC weapons in open world is that most older CC weapons have very low damage… and some even have terrible breakbar damage too… a lot of them are still balanced for the early years of GW2 and need some updates for the modern GW2…

Mesmer and Elementalists tend to be in a very good spot when it comes to CC weapons… Mesmers have the Domination spec which greatly improves their CC abilities making them viable in all content… Elementalists have a large amount of CC between Air and Earth attunement with some in Water for a couple weapons, and due to attunements they never lack for damage output when CC is not needed…

Edited July 26 by Panda.1967

[Dadnir.5038]

8 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

The only problem with CC weapons in open world is that most older CC weapons have very low damage… and some even have terrible breakbar damage too… a lot of them are still balanced for the early years of GW2 and need some updates for the modern GW2…

Mesmer and Elementalists tend to be in a very good spot when it comes to CC weapons… Mesmers have the Domination spec which greatly improves their CC abilities making them viable in all content… Elementalists have a large amount of CC between Air and Earth attunement with some in Water for a couple weapons, and due to attunements they never lack for damage output when CC is not needed…

I'm sure some elementalist will disagree with you as I've seen some of them complain that they lack CC... Well, to be more accurate, they wold probably complain that the CC aren't within the "rotation".

In general, every single profession have decent CC weapons, the real issue is how well each player make use of these weapons. And that's especially true in a game where player often either bind themselves to a strict rotation or simply use every skills they have on CD without really minding anything but their damage output.

[Panda.1967]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Well, to be more accurate, they wold probably complain that the CC aren't within the "rotation".

To which I would argue back, “adjust to using a CC rotation when breakbars are up, you arn’t contributing anymore if the boss is damage immune and you’re just spamming damage skills”… every elementalists has access to CC at all times, they just choose to ignore it because “my damage”.

That also kinda goes hand-in-hand with my initial point… many CC skills are seen as worthless to a sizable portion of the community, usually because they lack any sort of damage component or non-CC related utility… imagine if many of these pure CC skills provided boons, were stun-breaks, or condi-clenses… sinple additions like that would make them more desirable even when CC isn’t needed and make people more willing to break their damage rotation to use them when CC is needed.

Edited July 26 by Panda.1967

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Well, to be more accurate, they wold probably complain that the CC aren't within the "rotation".

To which I would tell them, that's why downstate is in your rotation. 🙃

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Most of CC skills are  used as triggers for traits and relics/sigils in OW more than "control" : boons, dps modifier etc. Untamed mace/mace wouldn't be that cool without untamed traits.

Which is why guardian's hammer sucks.

[ysnake.3619]

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'm sure some elementalist will disagree with you as I've seen some of them complain that they lack CC... Well, to be more accurate, they wold probably complain that the CC aren't within the "rotation".

Correct, however not for the latter part, I will briefly break down Elementalist's CC options (just a stark reminder to everyone, Ellys cannot weaponswap):

It is not the "rotation" that is the problem, I would LOVE to switch to a correct attunement when it is time to CC but Elementalists are simply not able to, especially not Weaver. Below is the list of ALL the CCs - the highest DB Elly has is Focus Air #5, which is 400 (rarely does anyone use Focus though), while, for example, Warrior's #5 on Hammer is 700 DB. If you played Sword/Focus as a Weaver, you would have in TOTAL: 900 DB - while Warrior has (as an example) 850 DB just in Hammer #4 and #5 - the only difference is if Warrior is caught with weaponswap on cooldown.

Whenever an important Breakbar is about to happen, a good Elementalist will sit on their CC (Air usually) and continue attunement dancing, but yes - Elementalists, in general, have low amount of CC due to the nature of the required playstyle.

That would mean (without utilities) that Elementalists have:

Not Weaver:

Scepter - 0 DB

Sword - 100 DB

Dagger - 100 DB

Pistol - 150 DB

2h Hammer - 350 DB

2h Staff - 550 DB

Offhand Focus - 600 DB

Offhand Warhorn - 300 DB

Offhand Dagger - 432 DB

 

Weaver gets a bit more DB, BUT they cannot react to a breakbar that needs to be broken asap due to the nature of their attunement stance-dancing (you need to Attune to Air, wait for the cooldown then Attune again to get Air offhand utilities)

 

Utilities:

Arcane Wave - 25sec cd - 200 DB (never picked)

Elite - Tornado - 232 DB (never picked)

Conjure Frost Bow - #5 > 400 DB

 

Sword:

Air - #2 - 100 DB

If Weaver > Earth/Air - #3 - 200DB

 

Hammer:

Air #4 - 200DB

Air #5 - 150DB

 

Dagger:

Air #3 - 100DB

If Weaver > Water/Air #3 - 150

If Weaver > Water/Earth #3 - 200

 

Dagger Offhand:

Air #5 - 232 DB

Earth #4 - 200 DB

 

Pistol:

Air #2 - 150 DB

If Weaver > Air/Earth #3 > 100 DB

 

Scepter:

If Weaver > Air/Earth #3 > 150 DB

 

Staff:

Air #3 > 150 DB

Air #5 > 200 DB

If Weaver > Air/Earth #3 > 200 DB

 

Focus:

Water #5 > 200 DB

Air #5 > 400 DB

 

Warhorn:

Water #4 > 150 DB

Air #4 > 150 DB

Edited July 26 by ysnake.3619

[Sobx.1758]

Quote

Do CC weapons belong in OW?

Yes.

15 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

So why use hammer or mace on guardian when doing open world? and you know what, scratch just open world. what about pve in general?

You have a weapon choice for a reason. If you don't like how these play, pick something else. It's not really complicated nor a reason to "remove it from ow/pve in general". But probably most importantly, it appears you don't understand what the weapons you're talking about actually do. Hammer guardian has the easiest, basically autoattack, dps build.

[draxynnic.3719]

Quick note: warrior hammer 5 is 300 breakbar damage, 400 if the target has Weakness. The tooltip is bugged and adds the two values together, but it's been pretty thoroughly tested and shown to do 300 or 400 rather than the claimed 700.

Elementalist does have the issue of feeling light on CC fairly often. Now, 'light' isn't the same as 'none', but one consideration is that elementalist has few options for gaining additional hard CC through mechanics or utilities, so even before you consider locked-out-of-attunement issues, elementalist often has less in practice than professions that can pull from mechanics or, if they REALLY need it, utilities.

[ysnake.3619]

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Quick note: warrior hammer 5 is 300 breakbar damage, 400 if the target has Weakness. The tooltip is bugged and adds the two values together, but it's been pretty thoroughly tested and shown to do 300 or 400 rather than the claimed 700.

Elementalist does have the issue of feeling light on CC fairly often. Now, 'light' isn't the same as 'none', but one consideration is that elementalist has few options for gaining additional hard CC through mechanics or utilities, so even before you consider locked-out-of-attunement issues, elementalist often has less in practice than professions that can pull from mechanics or, if they REALLY need it, utilities.

Been a while since I played Warrior, but afaik #2 or #3 Hammer gives Weakness, right?

[Kozumi.5816]

On 7/25/2024 at 4:52 AM, Fipmip.7219 said:

trying to make a hammer guardian work and well, it really sucks just getting bogged down by mobs and being unable to kill them asap, or just doing such mid dps to bosses. I feel like anet really needs to start an initiative to add damage to these weapons in pve.

Hammer is a healing weapon. Try quickness firebrand using a hammer, it's fun!

[Panda.1967]

23 hours ago, ysnake.3619 said:

Correct, however not for the latter part, I will briefly break down Elementalist's CC options (just a stark reminder to everyone, Ellys cannot weaponswap):

It is not the "rotation" that is the problem, I would LOVE to switch to a correct attunement when it is time to CC but Elementalists are simply not able to, especially not Weaver. Below is the list of ALL the CCs - the highest DB Elly has is Focus Air #5, which is 400 (rarely does anyone use Focus though), while, for example, Warrior's #5 on Hammer is 700 DB. If you played Sword/Focus as a Weaver, you would have in TOTAL: 900 DB - while Warrior has (as an example) 850 DB just in Hammer #4 and #5 - the only difference is if Warrior is caught with weaponswap on cooldown.

Whenever an important Breakbar is about to happen, a good Elementalist will sit on their CC (Air usually) and continue attunement dancing, but yes - Elementalists, in general, have low amount of CC due to the nature of the required playstyle.

That would mean (without utilities) that Elementalists have:

Not Weaver:

Scepter - 0 DB

Sword - 100 DB

Dagger - 100 DB

Pistol - 150 DB

2h Hammer - 350 DB

2h Staff - 550 DB

Offhand Focus - 600 DB

Offhand Warhorn - 300 DB

Offhand Dagger - 432 DB

 

Weaver gets a bit more DB, BUT they cannot react to a breakbar that needs to be broken asap due to the nature of their attunement stance-dancing (you need to Attune to Air, wait for the cooldown then Attune again to get Air offhand utilities)

 

Utilities:

Arcane Wave - 25sec cd - 200 DB (never picked)

Elite - Tornado - 232 DB (never picked)

Conjure Frost Bow - #5 > 400 DB

 

Sword:

Air - #2 - 100 DB

If Weaver > Earth/Air - #3 - 200DB

 

Hammer:

Air #4 - 200DB

Air #5 - 150DB

 

Dagger:

Air #3 - 100DB

If Weaver > Water/Air #3 - 150

If Weaver > Water/Earth #3 - 200

 

Dagger Offhand:

Air #5 - 232 DB

Earth #4 - 200 DB

 

Pistol:

Air #2 - 150 DB

If Weaver > Air/Earth #3 > 100 DB

 

Scepter:

If Weaver > Air/Earth #3 > 150 DB

 

Staff:

Air #3 > 150 DB

Air #5 > 200 DB

If Weaver > Air/Earth #3 > 200 DB

 

Focus:

Water #5 > 200 DB

Air #5 > 400 DB

 

Warhorn:

Water #4 > 150 DB

Air #4 > 150 DB

You’ve either forgotten or were just not aware that soft CCs also deal DB.

Fear/Taunt 100DB/s

Slow/Immobilize 50DB/s

Chilled 33DB/s

Blindness/Weakness 20DB/s

Crippled 15DB/s

Elementalists can keep Chilled,  Crippled and Weakness up constantly netting them 68DB/s… most professions can only keep one, maybe 2 soft CCs rolling at all times if they can even maintain 100% uptime…

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, ysnake.3619 said:

Been a while since I played Warrior, but afaik #2 or #3 Hammer gives Weakness, right?

Yes, but the point is that it does 300 base, 400 with Weakness. It's not 300 base plus 400 with weakness. It's always either 300 or 400, never 700.

The tooltip apparently thinks they can both trigger for a total of 700, but in practice it's one or the other, never both.

[Mhina.1827]

On 7/25/2024 at 3:52 AM, Fipmip.7219 said:

trying to make a hammer guardian work and well, it really sucks just getting bogged down by mobs and being unable to kill them asap, or just doing such mid dps to bosses. I feel like anet really needs to start an initiative to add damage to these weapons in pve.

 Greatsword/Hammer Willbender has very respectable solo dps and champion mob solo power. While these days I prefer Longbow's CC + dmg over using hammer, Hammer seems to be a pretty strong open world choice. Especially since Willbender can afford to be more offensive in its trait selection due to the strength of Zakiros rune and Litany of Wrath.