Trash mobs shouldn't exist.

[Dib.4612]

I was on my way to the Valdhertz Crypts in Echovald Wilds. On my way there, there were a handful of Brotherhood enemies, I suppose guarding the place from our entry?
Anyways, I hadn't played the game for some time and one of these guys started attacking me. I decided to test their strength, I am a guardian on a glass cannon build. So I just stood there, taking the hits. I waited... And waited... And waited. And after 1.5 minutes he finally managed to down me. In turn I got up and killed him in 3 seconds.

What this does is trivialize their presence, and in turn trivialize the world you're in. Part of the immersion in a world is that if someone attacks you, you may just die. And when that's the case you start noticing their burst attacks, you try to avoid them. And in turn you start appreciating and respecting this foe, try to find ways to go around them, or make smart pulls like in GW1. Immersing you into the world through its dangers.

You may say, "but in groups they will pose a threat to you!". But really there would have to be 9 of them to bring it down to 10 seconds, and then I'd still burst down this swarm of annoying flies and make it even more inconsequential, I just killed 9 people on my own. Furthermore I don't see their attacks anymore, I cannot react to anything, only 'counterfight', aka burst them as fast as possible.

You may also say, "but it's so annoying if I walk around and get killed!". In that case, why do you play an adventure game?
But furthermore I have better solutions:
1. Only make enemies that feel alive and threatening, they should be able to kill you on their own in just a couple of seconds if you don't put up a fight. Apart from auto attack, give them at least a burst, CC, heal and the ability to dodge. If they are humans, take their attacks from the player abilities so it feels like fighting real people. Give Veterans and Elites more skills, not more health/damage.
2. Readjust their number down so we don't get overwhelmed by these stronger enemies and are able to read their attacks.
3. Put them in sensible places. Why are these enemies here? If they are fighters then surely they are protecting something? Is it their hideout or city or fortress, or maybe an important road between two places they occupy. Maybe they are protecting the entire land. Let them patrol, let them set up chokepoints, watchtowers.
4. Lastly the AI on many of them really needs to improve, some kind of interaction or movement on them is important as to make them feel alive. Make them smart enough to coordinate, like if they see a group of players that is too large for them to deal, let them call on reinforcements with a horn from another place in the map.

In conclusion (TLDR).
Make fewer but much stronger enemies with better AI and player moves that make you feel as though they are a worthy opponent. No more auto attacking trash mobs that try to pet me to death.
Why? For the sake of immersion and a fun challenge!

[Kinurak.5307]

I'd rather not. Owpve is supposed to be a chill place. If you want a challenge there are Strikes/raids/fractals. 

I agree tho that the after cast delay on mobs and allied npc's needs to go tho. By the time the hit us twice, we chopped half their healthbar to confetti. A speedier attack cycle for allies and enemies would be good. But no to making the enemies stronger. 

[Astralporing.1957]

You might have missed initial release of HoT expansion. And player reaction to its original difficulty.

Short version: no, that's not a good idea. Most players would not like it (and consider the mobs you feel are fine to be threatening enough).

[Dean Calaway.9718]

46 minutes ago, Dib.4612 said:

So I just stood there, taking the hits. I waited... And waited... And waited. And after 1.5 minutes he finally managed to down me. In turn I got up and killed him in 3 seconds.

They don't call them trash mobs for nothing.

[kharmin.7683]

No.

[Andy.5981]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You might have missed initial release of HoT expansion. And player reaction to its original difficulty.

Short version: no, that's not a good idea. Most players would not like it (and consider the mobs you feel are fine to be threatening enough).

Read the OP and thought of this immediately.

For those that weren't playing the game on the release of HoT the ramp up in difficulty for all "trash" mobs was way more than most people could handle. They had to tone down the enemies in a patch due to the outcry from the playerbase.

The level of difficulty for open world enemies is fine. They're not meant to provide a challenge, they're there to provide resources at a reasonable farming rate for players to use in tradeskills. So thats a no from me as to this suggestion.

Edited August 19 by Andy.5981

[Maria Murtor.7253]

For every cave a bat.

[Randulf.7614]

I largely disagree with the OP in idea and analysis, but I do think EoD suffers at time from the static, random placement of mobs too much. This bled into Nayos which just has them standing around doing nothing whilst we blunder around.

Compare that to Drizzlewood which if you study carefully, has a lot mobs were patrolling or well placed for sniping and ambushing. That's very much a gold standard for a lot of things in the game, but particularly how to design a map with well positioned mobs from intelligent enemies (ie not wildlife)

[Atoclone.4810]

3 hours ago, Dib.4612 said:

I was on my way to the Valdhertz Crypts in Echovald Wilds. On my way there, there were a handful of Brotherhood enemies, I suppose guarding the place from our entry?
Anyways, I hadn't played the game for some time and one of these guys started attacking me. I decided to test their strength, I am a guardian on a glass cannon build. So I just stood there, taking the hits. I waited... And waited... And waited. And after 1.5 minutes he finally managed to down me. In turn I got up and killed him in 3 seconds.

What this does is trivialize their presence, and in turn trivialize the world you're in. Part of the immersion in a world is that if someone attacks you, you may just die. And when that's the case you start noticing their burst attacks, you try to avoid them. And in turn you start appreciating and respecting this foe, try to find ways to go around them, or make smart pulls like in GW1. Immersing you into the world through its dangers.

You may say, "but in groups they will pose a threat to you!". But really there would have to be 9 of them to bring it down to 10 seconds, and then I'd still burst down this swarm of annoying flies and make it even more inconsequential, I just killed 9 people on my own. Furthermore I don't see their attacks anymore, I cannot react to anything, only 'counterfight', aka burst them as fast as possible.

!

my main is the pact commander, the whateverydodah you get called in sota (it was very hard to care or pay attention) she's a master of all 4 elements and excels at ripping into groups face first. a single enemy soldier is like a toddler to her.

personally i'm pretty sure i could beat up a toddler (not going to try, not even for science) but through a whole bunch of them at me and i may suffer (especially if you give them sniper rifles) that's where it starts to become tricky.

if each and every mob was a challenge to me the feeling of being this great magical fighting champion would disappear 

[starlinvf.1358]

2 hours ago, Atoclone.4810 said:

my main is the pact commander, the whateverydodah you get called in sota (it was very hard to care or pay attention) she's a master of all 4 elements and excels at ripping into groups face first. a single enemy soldier is like a toddler to her.

personally i'm pretty sure i could beat up a toddler (not going to try, not even for science) but through a whole bunch of them at me and i may suffer (especially if you give them sniper rifles) that's where it starts to become tricky.

if each and every mob was a challenge to me the feeling of being this great magical fighting champion would disappear 

What if that toddler was Korra?   yay 4 digs in the same joke!!!

[Mithral.8516]

Go play fractals and raids if you don't want to see squishy enemies. There are plenty of difficult enemies in the open world. If they were all super difficult, imagine how few people would be willing to even complete their maps.  Also, (spoilers ahead?) the commander/wayfinder has literally killed multiple elder dragons and a god. I think they can handle a few humans. If that's breaking your immersion, you should work on your ability to suspend disbelief. 

[QueenKeriti.5176]

I love squishy enemies. Makes me feel better after playing ffxiv and dealing with enemies requiring multiple gcds to die vs reaper spin2win.

[Manpag.6421]

What's the point of trash mobs? Flavour and XP. They don't have to put up much of a fight, they're basically there as props to make the map feel alive, and it would be irritating as hell if everything was incredibly hard-hitting and/or tanky if you were just grinding experience to fill out your masteries. Things don't have to be deadly to be irritating, anyway. Using your Echovald example, there are the Speaker Saboteurs who corrupt all your boons, the Jade Brotherhood Sharpshooters who spam knockbacks if you get in melee range, etc.

[Ashen.2907]

I wouldn't say they shouldn't exist but they could be implemented better.

[Zebulous.2934]

Perhaps there could be a place where the mobs have the original HoT artificial intelligence enabled?  An instance I think.  Give the mobs there the same loot as their dumb counterparts in the regular PvE. 

Have an npc explain that it is a challenge with no unique rewards, only perspective.

A champion and their entourage, some groups of trash, a few veterans with support. Everything is able to dodge and avoids aoe ect.  

Let the folks who want Challenging PvE give that instance a try.  Let them bring a party with them.  Maybe they will change their minds afterwards.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

8 hours ago, Andy.5981 said:

Read the OP and thought of this immediately.

For those that weren't playing the game on the release of HoT the ramp up in difficulty for all "trash" mobs was way more than most people could handle. They had to tone down the enemies in a patch due to the outcry from the playerbase.

The level of difficulty for open world enemies is fine. They're not meant to provide a challenge, they're there to provide resources at a reasonable farming rate for players to use in tradeskills. So thats a no from me as to this suggestion.

You have to remember tho, that HoT mob balance was still based around how ANet did balance for mobs in dungeons back in the day.  A bunch of weird abilities that ignore mechanics (CC that ignores stability, projectiles that ignored reflects & absorption and also weren't projectiles, AoEs that show up after the damage tick, to list a few) that were very commonplace in early HoT balance.  Combine this with poor visibility due to everyone running through the maps, a backwards, mandatory mastery system to explore,  get rewards from some things, or even do the meta on the map, and mix in a lack of explained combat mechanics and you have a pretty awful mixture there for new and old players who don't understand combat.

Anet seems to (As far as I've seen) understand the rules of their own game.  Combat needs to be consistent.  Moves with deadly damage, big CC, or something else need to be telegraphed and counterable in some fashion (Aegis, Stability, invulns).  I think if a map like Verdant brink were released today with ANet using the knowledge they have these days, it'd be a lot better received.

[Ashen.2907]

There is a pretty significant difference between groups of champions and veterans and a mob that struggles to hurt your character while you are not attempting to defend or fight back. There is plenty ty of middle ground there, and sometimes Anet actually uses it.

In my home RPG games I tend to use group narration for encounters where the foes pose no threat to the PCs. When a group of level 16, fully outfitted and magicked up, player characters runs into a gang of level 1 street thugs during a visit to their favorite eatery it is probably not worth bringing out the dice and miniatures.

[illuminati.8453]

12 hours ago, Dib.4612 said:

Make fewer but much stronger enemies with better AI and player moves that make you feel as though they are a worthy opponent. No more auto attacking trash mobs that try to pet me to death.

Oof, I suppose they could make a bird or something that evades for 15 seconds ... oh wait, they did that.   How about a mob that lays down a strip of fire that one shots you....oh yeah, that too.  Pack of raptors that maul you in 5 seconds?  Yeah, been there, done that.

Not sure what you want, they have a lot of variety! 

[Gehenna.3625]

12 hours ago, Dib.4612 said:

I was on my way to the Valdhertz Crypts in Echovald Wilds. On my way there, there were a handful of Brotherhood enemies, I suppose guarding the place from our entry?
Anyways, I hadn't played the game for some time and one of these guys started attacking me. I decided to test their strength, I am a guardian on a glass cannon build. So I just stood there, taking the hits. I waited... And waited... And waited. And after 1.5 minutes he finally managed to down me. In turn I got up and killed him in 3 seconds.

What this does is trivialize their presence, and in turn trivialize the world you're in. Part of the immersion in a world is that if someone attacks you, you may just die. And when that's the case you start noticing their burst attacks, you try to avoid them. And in turn you start appreciating and respecting this foe, try to find ways to go around them, or make smart pulls like in GW1. Immersing you into the world through its dangers.

You may say, "but in groups they will pose a threat to you!". But really there would have to be 9 of them to bring it down to 10 seconds, and then I'd still burst down this swarm of annoying flies and make it even more inconsequential, I just killed 9 people on my own. Furthermore I don't see their attacks anymore, I cannot react to anything, only 'counterfight', aka burst them as fast as possible.

You may also say, "but it's so annoying if I walk around and get killed!". In that case, why do you play an adventure game?
But furthermore I have better solutions:
1. Only make enemies that feel alive and threatening, they should be able to kill you on their own in just a couple of seconds if you don't put up a fight. Apart from auto attack, give them at least a burst, CC, heal and the ability to dodge. If they are humans, take their attacks from the player abilities so it feels like fighting real people. Give Veterans and Elites more skills, not more health/damage.
2. Readjust their number down so we don't get overwhelmed by these stronger enemies and are able to read their attacks.
3. Put them in sensible places. Why are these enemies here? If they are fighters then surely they are protecting something? Is it their hideout or city or fortress, or maybe an important road between two places they occupy. Maybe they are protecting the entire land. Let them patrol, let them set up chokepoints, watchtowers.
4. Lastly the AI on many of them really needs to improve, some kind of interaction or movement on them is important as to make them feel alive. Make them smart enough to coordinate, like if they see a group of players that is too large for them to deal, let them call on reinforcements with a horn from another place in the map.

In conclusion (TLDR).
Make fewer but much stronger enemies with better AI and player moves that make you feel as though they are a worthy opponent. No more auto attacking trash mobs that try to pet me to death.
Why? For the sake of immersion and a fun challenge!

1. Only make enemies that feel alive and threatening, they should be able to kill you on their own in just a couple of seconds if you don't put up a fight. Apart from auto attack, give them at least a burst, CC, heal and the ability to dodge.

In other words, you want to kill this game

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Epsilon Indi.2031 said:

You have to remember tho, that HoT mob balance was still based around how ANet did balance for mobs in dungeons back in the day.  A bunch of weird abilities that ignore mechanics (CC that ignores stability, projectiles that ignored reflects & absorption and also weren't projectiles, AoEs that show up after the damage tick, to list a few) that were very commonplace in early HoT balance.  Combine this with poor visibility due to everyone running through the maps, a backwards, mandatory mastery system to explore,  get rewards from some things, or even do the meta on the map, and mix in a lack of explained combat mechanics and you have a pretty awful mixture there for new and old players who don't understand combat.

Anet seems to (As far as I've seen) understand the rules of their own game.  Combat needs to be consistent.  Moves with deadly damage, big CC, or something else need to be telegraphed and counterable in some fashion (Aegis, Stability, invulns).  I think if a map like Verdant brink were released today with ANet using the knowledge they have these days, it'd be a lot better received.

You sure? Because all the elements that ignore normal combat mechanics you mentioned are very much present in the most recent mob design - the Kryptis.

[Quor.3529]

There are souls like games out there for that kind of thing

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Don't underestimated how bad many Openworld players are. They die to this. 

[Azoqu.8917]

Here everyone is talking about release HoT mobs, meanwhile I'm thinking of the beta mobs that had dodges for AoEs and people hated that with a passion. And those were just the current mobs in base Tyria with dodges.

[Zebulous.2934]

I'm just sayin make an instance with mediocre loot in it and make the mobs as "intelligent" as the game will allow.  Give the mobs roles, and have them work together as players do.
Then let the folks who complain about easy PvE enter the instance and regret their decision. "They were in the trees man, the freakin trees!"

If it is going to be for bragging rites: let the mobs drop particular account bound trophies.  That way the trophies can be linked in chat.  Make crafting recipes that allow them to turn a full stack of the trophy into one trophy of the next tier of rarity.  Keep all of these trophies account bound.  This way these guys can impress each other with their pve prowess.  One day some poor guy will make a full stack of the ascended version of the trophy and we can all be impressed and horrified at their effort.  

"I think PvE should be more challenging!"

"Say no more friend! Simply talk to this npc in Lions Arch and he will teleport you to exactly the kind of mobs you wish to fight!  Bring a few friends along, those critters are tough!"

[Skub.8240]

If you want a challenge, take your armour off or something. Not everyone wants to always have a high level of challenge at all times.