Wintersday Balance Update: Feedback Thread

[zealex.9410]

This is pretty amussing.Its not even a full 24 hours since the patch and ppl are already burning down their homes. I wonder where have i seen this before. :thinking:

[Genesis.5169]

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:the mirage condi for confusion gives NO room for counterplay at all, the amount of confusion stacked in pvp is just ridiculous and no one can survive that much confusion unless conditions are removed before the skill is counted as active...

gj, you made rifle thief still useless in spvp, why pve?! no one will use rifle in pve.

you still didnt fix Shadowtrap for thief OR the No Valid Path for renegade on summons.

You mean outside of taking no actions or cleansing the condition or waiting it out while you run away from the mirage?

To the topic

I disagree with the condition changes, i believe you took the wrong step anet, people misdirected there hatred of conditions, the true issue is that the spec scourge is Counter to wvw, and spvp mainly because theres always a boon to corrupt in wvw blobs and in spvp the goal is point control. Droping a shade on point just to buy time to allow your team to rotate is whats winning games. I made a post about this earlier and i said the only thing that you could do to change it is make Conditions so weak that a full rotation would put u do to 70% hp which you have done.

But power is still gonna run around and kill people in seconds you have undoubtably pushed us back into a beserker meta, giving conditions longer ramp up when every serious fight in the game has phases is also another huge blow. And while you can say well most of the game doesn't do that content. The meta is shaped by the elites that do and it will trickle down.

If your goal was to revert back to that meta you have achieved it give it time it will happen.What you should have done was make combo fields more powerful and allow more water and light fields to purge 2 conditions instead of 1 and made ghost killable.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:To Everyone re: confusion.

I just want to remind everyone that the passive DoT of confusion is about half of that of bleeding/poison in WvW/PvP.

Oh, okay. Now add in the other aspect of it? Why would you KNOWING that confusion does damage passively AND when you do something, ignore the other aspect? Is it to try and make it out like Confusion isnt insanely broken, poorly designed, poorly implemented and balanced on Mesmer that can spam the mindless hell out of it!?

And how are mesmers spaming Confusion now my friend.Cause i play a mirage and Confusion stacks aren't spamable my friend to get a decent amount on you requires more set up then hitting me 1 one power skill for half my hp.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Genesis.5169 said:You mean outside of taking no actions or cleansing the condition or waiting it out while you run away from the mirage?

Torment and Confusion say hello.Damage if you move, damage if you dont move, damage if you use no abilities even more damage for using abilities. Also, how do you out wait CONSTANT application? Its not as if Mesmer has low/limited access to either of these conditions...

Also, 1 Vs 1 Condi Mirage is WAY stronger than Condi Scourge has been and hasnt been touched. Might not have the Boon corruption that Scourge has but Mesmer brings its own threats to Group and zerg fights as well.

[Sindrener.1592]

Remove the res on merciful intervention or split it from pvp, fb bunker is broken already and should be nerfed to ensure a better meta. Instead you buff it and add another stupid res mechanic that shouldnt exist in pvp just as old search and rescue/ rev infused light/quickness res.

[Morwath.9817]

@bluri.2653 said:Remove the res on merciful intervention or split it from pvp, fb bunker is broken already and should be nerfed to ensure a better meta. Instead you buff it and add another stupid res mechanic that shouldnt exist in pvp just as old search and rescue/ rev infused light/quickness res.

Well, I do agree that it was unnecessary change, as Merciful Intervention was already used prepatch, and it was pretty strong before change as teleport with ~5k healing.

[Swagger.1459]

My feedback.. The entire condi system needs an overhaul, because adjusting stacks and duration does not address the real issues. Every other game uses DoT for skills like these. Going to DoT will allow your team to balance damage output better, and players will be happier. (and maybe we can overhaul heal support builds and skills, so playing a healer is smooth, fun, viable... and healing becomes a better counter-balance to all this crazy damage output? you can still have "offensive" healers.. take a look at how well city of heroes did with their support powersets.)

@"Swagger.1459" said:These will be simplified suggestions... The changes will be great for wvw, and the rest of the game too.

AMA quotes to start...

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

The Suggestions...

1. A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

2. Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

3. Weapon attacks designed for condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills using 1 particular condition damage per tick. Examples using the AMA quotes for guidance... A power weapon skill is assigned to hit for 1,000 raw damage. A new condi DoT skill is assigned to hit for 1,200 condition damage, and hits an opponent for 300 condition DoT damage over 4 seconds.

Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...

~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

*You keep in place all the other secondary “stuff” going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

4. Assign each individual weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills...

Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.

Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

5. Cleansing skills become power and condi DoT damage mitigation skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do not remove condi DoT damage...

6. Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

7. All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the devs can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Swagger.1459 said:my feedback.. The entire condi system needs an overhaul.

@Swagger.1459 said:These will be simplified suggestions... The changes will be great for wvw, and the rest of the game too.

AMA quotes to start...

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

The Suggestions...

1. A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

2. Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

3. Weapon attacks designed for condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills using 1 particular condition damage per tick. Examples using the AMA quotes for guidance... A power weapon skill is assigned to hit for 1,000 raw damage. A new condi DoT skill is assigned to hit for 1,200 condition damage, and hits an opponent for 300 condition DoT damage over 4 seconds.

Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...

~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

*You keep in place all the other secondary “stuff” going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

4. Assign each individual weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills...

Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.

Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

5. Cleansing skills become power and condi DoT damage mitigation skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do not remove condi DoT damage...

6. Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

7. All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the devs can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

Truly hope nothing you put ever happens, that's not balance, it's purely knee jerk reaction

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Morwath.9817 said:

• Firebrand F2 #4 shouldn't be buffed without shaving heals somewhere else, as it becomes even more superior compared to Tempest or Tablet Revenant.

Tempest and Rev's tablet are not gated by a 40s cooldown.

[Swagger.1459]

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:my feedback.. The entire condi system needs an overhaul.

@Swagger.1459 said:These will be simplified suggestions... The changes will be great for wvw, and the rest of the game too.

AMA quotes to start...

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

The Suggestions...

1. A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

2. Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

3. Weapon attacks designed for condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills using 1 particular condition damage per tick. Examples using the AMA quotes for guidance... A power weapon skill is assigned to hit for 1,000 raw damage. A new condi DoT skill is assigned to hit for 1,200 condition damage, and hits an opponent for 300 condition DoT damage over 4 seconds.

Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...

~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

*You keep in place all the other secondary “stuff” going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

4. Assign each individual weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills...

Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.

Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

5. Cleansing skills become power and condi DoT damage mitigation skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do not remove condi DoT damage...

6. Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

7. All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the devs can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

Truly hope nothing you put ever happens, that's not balance, it's purely knee jerk reaction

Riiiiiiiight... because tons of other games use Power skills and DoT skills... and Power Heal and DoT heals... and it works... Anet tries too hard to be different, and now we have a mess that is still unresolved 6 years later.

[Morwath.9817]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

• Firebrand F2 #4 shouldn't be buffed without shaving heals somewhere else, as it becomes even more superior compared to Tempest or Tablet Revenant.

Tempest's staff and Rev's tablet are not gated by a 40s cooldown.

I would like to remind you few facts:

• Tempest doesn't use Staff in sPvP as it's pretty horrible there.
• Rev Tablet is gated by energy and it doesn't have enough cleanse.
• CDs on Staff - Geyser has 20s CD and Healing Rain has 40s CD, AA heals for nothing.
• Fireband healing is superior to Tempest and Revenant in every single way, especially if we take amount of cleanse Firebrand has.

~Your dear pocket Firebrand.

[Crab Fear.1624]

I see that a few questionable changes happened; they really stood out to me, considering that most classes got a condi nerf.

1. Mesmer's Mantra of Resolve now removes ALL conditions in a 12 second interval instead of a removable resistance. (I dont think many mesmerd use this skill in spvp atm...but i could be wrong)This is bad because if everyone has weaker condi, and the Mesmer is already ultra evasive, then even if a foe lands a punishing condition on them they can remove if without worry. Power hasn't been the most successful against them considering they can drop confusion with cover condis on you like snowflakes during Wintersday.

2. Firebrands got a pretty big healing buff that affects an area over time and also 1 that partially revives the downed. The class if moving closer(if it's not already there) to a dedicated healer(holy trinity incoming?). But what this does is that it will allow the same scourge and firebrand combo to control a point even better, with the area healing making it easier to sustain a scourge. The scourge may have got a nerf, but not enough to even make a player consider trying something else it its their main. The combo was already hard enough to put down.

[Exalted Quality.8534]

Clearly, you don’t know/care how terrible revenant is in pvp/wvw and you keep nerfing it in pve. It’s unbeleivable that you don’t realize/care how useless shortbow is and how clunky the renegade profession is. Nerfing condis globally does not make it any easier for revs to deal with condis.

[Kumouta.4985]

what the skritt are necromancers supposed to do with the new trait, 'dread'?

[OriOri.8724]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:I see that a few questionable changes happened; they really stood out to me, considering that most classes got a condi nerf.

1. Mesmer's Mantra of Resolve now removes ALL conditions twice in a 12 second interval instead of a removable resistance. This is bad because if everyone has weaker condi, and the Mesmer is already ultra evasive, then even if a foe lands a punishing condition on them they can remove if without worry. Power hasn't been the most successful against them considering they can drop confusion with cover condis on you like snowflakes during Wintersday.

2. Firebrands got a pretty big healing buff that affects an area over time and also 1 that partially revives the downed. The class if moving closer(if it's not already there) to a dedicated healer(holy trinity incoming?). But what this does is that it will allow the same scourge and firebrand combo to control a point even better, with the area healing making it easier to sustain a scourge. The scourge may have got a nerf, but not enough to even make a player consider trying something else it its their main. The combo was already hard enough to put down.

The all condi cleanse only happens when we finish channeling the mantra. Which means we have to succeed with a 2.25s channel to get that. It only affects the mantra, not power cleanse.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:I see that a few questionable changes happened; they really stood out to me, considering that most classes got a condi nerf.

1. Mesmer's Mantra of Resolve
   now removes
   ALL conditions
   twice in a 12 second interval instead of a removable resistance. This is bad because if everyone has weaker condi, and the Mesmer is already ultra evasive, then even if a foe lands a punishing condition on them they can remove if without worry. Power hasn't been the most successful against them considering they can drop confusion with cover condis on you like snowflakes during Wintersday.

2. Firebrands got a
   pretty big
   healing buff that affects an area over time and also 1 that partially revives the downed. The class if moving closer(if it's not already there) to a dedicated healer(holy trinity incoming?). But what this does is that it will allow the same scourge and firebrand combo to control a point even better, with the area healing making it easier to sustain a scourge. The scourge may have got a nerf, but not enough to even make a player consider trying something else it its their main. The combo was already hard enough to put down.

The all condi cleanse only happens when we finish channeling the mantra. Which means we have to succeed with a 2.25s channel to get that. It only affects the mantra, not power cleanse.

Oh yeah, you are right ...derp. Well it's once 12, and then the normal 3 x 2. I don't think many mesmers use this skill in PVP, but 2.5 second cast should not be a problem for a veteran Mesmer.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:I see that a few questionable changes happened; they really stood out to me, considering that most classes got a condi nerf.

1. Mesmer's Mantra of Resolve
   now removes
   ALL conditions
   twice in a 12 second interval instead of a removable resistance. This is bad because if everyone has weaker condi, and the Mesmer is already ultra evasive, then even if a foe lands a punishing condition on them they can remove if without worry. Power hasn't been the most successful against them considering they can drop confusion with cover condis on you like snowflakes during Wintersday.

2. Firebrands got a
   pretty big
   healing buff that affects an area over time and also 1 that partially revives the downed. The class if moving closer(if it's not already there) to a dedicated healer(holy trinity incoming?). But what this does is that it will allow the same scourge and firebrand combo to control a point even better, with the area healing making it easier to sustain a scourge. The scourge may have got a nerf, but not enough to even make a player consider trying something else it its their main. The combo was already hard enough to put down.

The all condi cleanse only happens when we finish channeling the mantra. Which means we have to succeed with a 2.25s channel to get that. It only affects the mantra, not power cleanse.

Oh yeah, you are right ...kitten. Well it's once 12, and then the normal 3 x 2. I don't think many mesmers use this skill in PVP, but 2.5 second cast should not be a problem for a veteran Mesmer.

2.5 seconds is a gigantic amount of time in PvP hence why mantras are overall not used for ranked in most Mesmer builds (power being SOMETIMES the exception).

[shadowpass.4236]

Merciful Intervention is COMPLETELY BROKEN

and should be removed or hotfixed immediately

[Kain Francois.4328]

(PvE Perspective)

I'm really happy with most of the changes, and thankful for the removal of those god-awful "if endurance is not full" traits. Seriously, those things sucked from a design standpoint. Dodge should be a valuable resource, not something you recklessly spend unless you are a mirage or daredevil. ANET delivered.

My only complaint is that Power Reaper still isn't competitive DPS. Please, anet. I want to be slow-moving, hard-hitting juggernaut. Pleeease buff Power Reaper! ;_;

[OriOri.8724]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:I see that a few questionable changes happened; they really stood out to me, considering that most classes got a condi nerf.

1. Mesmer's Mantra of Resolve
   now removes
   ALL conditions
   twice in a 12 second interval instead of a removable resistance. This is bad because if everyone has weaker condi, and the Mesmer is already ultra evasive, then even if a foe lands a punishing condition on them they can remove if without worry. Power hasn't been the most successful against them considering they can drop confusion with cover condis on you like snowflakes during Wintersday.

2. Firebrands got a
   pretty big
   healing buff that affects an area over time and also 1 that partially revives the downed. The class if moving closer(if it's not already there) to a dedicated healer(holy trinity incoming?). But what this does is that it will allow the same scourge and firebrand combo to control a point even better, with the area healing making it easier to sustain a scourge. The scourge may have got a nerf, but not enough to even make a player consider trying something else it its their main. The combo was already hard enough to put down.

The all condi cleanse only happens when we finish channeling the mantra. Which means we have to succeed with a 2.25s channel to get that. It only affects the mantra, not power cleanse.

Oh yeah, you are right ...kitten. Well it's once 12, and then the normal 3 x 2. I don't think many mesmers use this skill in PVP, but 2.5 second cast should not be a problem for a veteran Mesmer.

You don't get it. Even a new mesmer can safely get off the channel of a mantra, that's not the problem. Its just that it requires so much investment to secure that channel. Most of our options involve dedicating both an entire traitline and a skill to secure the channel, and that's just outdated design. And for how much investment it requires to safely get that channel off in a fight, even a full cleanse is ridiculously weak. Mantras on mesmer just need an overhaul

[Crinn.7864]

The changes in this patch only reinforced the scourge/mirage/firebrand meta even harder.

-> By reducing stack count but increasing duration, Scourge now runs carrion over deadshot, since the expertise is no longer useful. Carrion provides more vitality and more condition damage. So scourge is now doing higher damage per condi stack, with better defensive capability.-> The change to merciful intervention now makes Scourge even more mandatory because no other class in the game can cleave out a firebrand rez.-> Mirage went untouched despite being a burst condi build, and mirage was already the premier duelist and must pick for most teams.-> Skills with poison: By reducing poison stack counts but increasing duration, you actually buffed poison in PvP environments because the primary value of poison is not it's damage but it's healing reduction, and more duration = more uptime on healing redux.

[Evolute.6239]

This was a rather small balance patch with specific goals, and I think people will need to play around with some stuff. Just some comments:

• The power buffs to ranger are appreciated (and unexpected given the scope of the changes!), but the change to Steady Focus kind of negates a lot of it. It effectively is a 5% longbow buff, which is kind of irrelevant and negates a lot of the other axe and greatsword buffs. I like the removal of endurance/damage traits, but this one was a bit odd. Though this might just be a case of "get rid of all the dodge traits, leave more power changes until the next actual balance patch"
• Confusion in PvP is still too strong, as stated multiple times in this thread. It's a burst condition that punishes you for skill usage which is fine, but condi mirage (and chrono) dumps a lot of it and other conditions as well, so you die if you press a button.. or don't press a button. Kind of odd it wasn't really touched upon, given the scope of the other changes.
• The thief staff 2 change is great, thank you for finally doing this.

[sniperman.1738]

I feel that and I must say this. Anet what you did is saddening, I read the changes to necromancer, mainly them being scourge skills, thats quite the nerf there, miles just tell necros, to take a backseat in condi from now on or damage in general. You guys at Arena really need to take a detailed look at Necromancer, along with its elite specs Reaper and Scourage, and look at how under classed it is, and do something about it to save the profession from humiliation. If you have to revamp the whole class and its elite specs in the next quarterly balance patch, but do something to bring necro back instead of digging its grave deeper and deeper.

[Khaliel.3918]

I'm not sure but i think it's kind late for april fools

[Lunateric.3708]

@sniperman.1738 said:I feel that and I must say this. Anet what you did is saddening, I read the changes to necromancer, mainly them being scourge skills, thats quite the nerf there, miles just tell necros, to take a backseat in condi from now on or damage in general. You guys at Arena really need to take a detailed look at Necromancer, along with its elite specs Reaper and Scourage, and look at how under classed it is, and do something about it to save the profession from humiliation. If you have to revamp the whole class and its elite specs in the next quarterly balance patch, but do something to bring necro back instead of digging its grave deeper and deeper.

Necro in general has been extremely strong in PvP and WvW and will probably still be. It may underperform in PvE IF you take epidemic out of the equation.

[Xillllix.3485]

The elementalist change are really bad. Like it needed both a condi and dmg nerf.