not so secret JP... Why did they put the diving goggles so hard to access?

[Valanthe.4067]

It's like A-net just wanted to annoy people... All the 37 others locations for diving goggles (dive master achievement) are easy access. So why only one location is super hard to access? What's the thinking? PLZ I need help!

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

If you want a reason from us forumites the only answer we can give is ¯\(ツ)/¯Other than that, there are people who can portal you up there and help you get the achievement or maybe you can take a Mesmer char of yours and team up with another Mesmer to help each other to reach the goggles.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Theoretically, since completing them all is an achievement and a Mastery Point, it's not unreasonable for there to be some challenge in completing it, besides being willing to trek to each location.

On the other hand, if it were up to me, I would have separated out NSS's goggles as its own achievement (and made both worth a Mastery Point).

[mtpelion.4562]

Most of the "challenge" in Not So Secret is artificial. Between launch pads randomly ejecting you out into space and the inability to see your landing area (and the presence of many tiny "kill you instantly" pipes sticking out into your drop zone) the Diving Spot is like trying to play a pinball machine where only one flipper works, and half the time at that.

Get yourself a giant pile of Teleport to Friend consumables and join with someone with an alt parked at the top.

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

Does the Prototype Position Rewinder work when you're using diving goggles? Even if not, it should still help with getting up the JP.

[Ashabhi.1365]

Took me 5 years to get that diving achievement, and then I had to have a bit of help to get up there. I was very proud when I did. I hope they never change it!

[jbrother.1340]

@"mtpelion.4562" said:Most of the "challenge" in Not So Secret is artificial. Between launch pads randomly ejecting you out into space and the inability to see your landing area (and the presence of many tiny "kill you instantly" pipes sticking out into your drop zone) the Diving Spot is like trying to play a pinball machine where only one flipper works, and half the time at that.

Get yourself a giant pile of Teleport to Friend consumables and join with someone with an alt parked at the top.

the entire game is "artificial..." I know what you mean but one mans fun is another's sorrow :)

[Moonlit.6421]

On the bright side there are quite a few Mesmers willing to pier you free of charge. I keep 2 Mesmers there personally, it's one of the 4 puzzles I cover. ^^

[Khisanth.2948]

@BunjiKugashira.9754 said:Does the Prototype Position Rewinder work when you're using diving goggles? Even if not, it should still help with getting up the JP.

Only if you avoid dying on the way down. Using a WP cancels the marked location so if you have to use one to ress then you can't use it to rewind.

[SkullsandRoses.5803]

@Moonlit.6421 said:On the bright side there are quite a few Mesmers willing to pier you free of charge. I keep 2 Mesmers there personally, it's one of the 4 puzzles I cover. ^^

This is good news! Might need to find you in game for a port lol

[Neural.1824]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Theoretically, since completing them all is an achievement and a Mastery Point, it's not unreasonable for there to be some challenge in completing it, besides being willing to trek to each location.

On the other hand, if it were up to me, I would have separated out NSS's goggles as its own achievement (and made both worth a Mastery Point).

Right, because the other 9 mastery points they added to Central Tyria are sooo hard to access.It's in a ridiculous spot on the most poorly implemented jumping puzzle in the entire game. Sometimes I think the devs who tested it out only tested it in a game environment that had all the physical platforms visible, and not the graphics that we see.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Neural.1824 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Theoretically, since completing them all is an achievement and a Mastery Point, it's not unreasonable for there to be some challenge in completing it, besides being willing to trek to each location.

On the other hand, if it were up to me, I would have separated out NSS's goggles as its own achievement (and made both worth a Mastery Point).

Right, because the other 9 mastery points they added to Central Tyria are

sooo

hard to access.Um, no, they aren't and I didn't imply that they are.I don't see any reason why there can't be a few more extra Mastery Points. SuperSecret can continue to be tricky

and

worth a Mastery Point. And ANet could also offer a Mastery Point for completing all the original JPs.

It's in a ridiculous spot on the most poorly implemented jumping puzzle in the entire game. Sometimes I think the devs who tested it out only tested it in a game environment that had all the physical platforms visible, and not the graphics that we see.I can't agree. It's designed to be a tricky location, which is part of the challenge. In the original implementation, it was a lot easier: the spinning sprockets worked more predictably. Despite issues with the camera, it wasn't hard to see your way around. There were lots of people around, so the area was relatively free of foes and plenty of easy rezzes for those who missed, not to mention lots of Mesmer portals.

I was a lot worse at JPs when NSS came out and I could do it (with some trouble, to be sure).

So I'm doubling down on my original statement:

• I think it's a difficult enough dive (and hard enough to reach) that it deserves its own achievement and its own mastery point.
• Finishing all the other dives is consistent with some other MPs, so I'd leave that Mastery Point in place, too, i.e. why not both?

[Ardid.7203]

Not even doing all JPs gives you an achievement... and the title for jumping is on SAB. WTH.

[Neural.1824]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

I can't agree. It's designed to be a tricky location, which is part of the challenge. In the original implementation, it was a lot easier: the spinning sprockets worked more predictably. Despite issues with the camera, it wasn't hard to see your way around. There were lots of people around, so the area was relatively free of foes and plenty of easy rezzes for those who missed, not to mention lots of Mesmer portals.

I don't have a problem with the structure, it's the lack of consistency between what players can visually see but pass through, and what they cannot visually see but exists as a physical barrier.

Having to memorize the location of invisible items with edges that you can't necessarily define is not "challenging", it is sloppy level design. If they made a jumping puzzle that was exclusively focused on memorizing invisible platforms, it would be different, but with NSS "challenging" is an excuse, not a design implementation.The same applies to the old Troll's End Jumping puzzle. There was one jump in which the invisible platform that supported your character at the end of a jump was lower on the left side, while the visible pixels that the players could see were not nearly as tilted (the visible planks did hint at it, but most people I have talked to over the time it was around didn't even notice).Guild Wars 2 is visually stunning and has a lot of fun game play, but the "level design" is the one point that I would mark really low (regarding the game itself). There is zero consistency with the visual vs. the invisible-physical. Mild slopes that you can't get up, yet steep slopes that you can walk up. Invisible ledges that stick out further than the visual, while other visible ledges result in falling through, etc.

[Kong.3280]

@Moonlit.6421 said:On the bright side there are quite a few Mesmers willing to pier you free of charge.

Hit me up anytime for a port. If i'm not busy I'll be happy to port you to where you need to go, and stick around to help you complete your dive. :)

I often spend way too much time in there doing random ports between killing Aetherblades because, well, why not. ;)

[Kalendraf.9521]

I wish this JP was part of the daily rotation. Not because it's fun to do, but rather to make it more likely to find people there to help with porting along the way. All the other Krytan JPs are in the rotation, and it's easy to find players guiding and offering help at the tricky spots in each of them (or simply porting to end) when they come up as a daily. If Not So Secret JP was part of the daily rotation, I suspect there would be a lot of players helping everyone reach not only the JP chest, but also reach the goggles.

In addition to a few other collection points, I need to reach a location somewhere near the goggles for the Bolt III: Zap collection. I've tried getting there a few times on my own, but I havan't managed line up the takeoffs and landings for the set of spinning sprockets above the airship that you need to reach the goggles. Invariably my character gets flung way off course and falls to their death in an area where mounts and gliders are forbidden. Using my own mesmer lets me use portals as safety nets for missed jumps up to that point, but no further since any deaths due to getting flung off-target aborts the portal. I've checked numerous times to see if any other players are there that could port or would be available for a Teleport to Friend, but calls have gone unanswered. Some players in my guild used to have toons parked there, but they don't appear to anymore either. As a result, I'm stuck.

[Solaris.2489]

I remember doing this jp non stop for 1 week until I could run through it in minutes + port people up to the goggles with 100% success rate. Then they changed it so the discs throw you too far and you have to switch weapons to not fall off. Absolute rubbish mechanic, it was difficult but fair before they changed it.

[Kong.3280]

@Solaris.2489 said:Then they changed it so the discs throw you too far and you have to switch weapons to not fall off. Absolute rubbish mechanic, it was difficult but fair before they changed it.

Myself I find it best to wait until the first gear is 1/3 done it's spin before getting on. It helps ensure that when you land on the second gear it's done spinning, and you won't go flying off. I do always setup a portal entrance, just incase I do go flying. If I do I simply make sure I head into the well (where you dive, at least thats what I call it) then jump up and portal back up to go again.

[Solaris.2489]

@Kong.3280 said:Myself I find it best to wait until the first gear is 1/3 done it's spin before getting on. It helps ensure that when you land on the second gear it's done spinning, and you won't go flying off. I do always setup a portal entrance, just incase I do go flying. If I do I simply make sure I head into the well (where you dive, at least thats what I call it) then jump up and portal back up to go again.

Ive only done it like 2x since the change to help guildies, its still possible. I just dont get why they felt the need to change the disc velocity on this very jp when it was already difficult and they really dont change any of their older content.

[Moonlit.6421]

@Kong.3280 said:

I often spend way too much time in there doing random ports between killing Aetherblades because, well, why not. ;)

I do the same thing in the Chalice of Tears JP normally. If I'm bored or half ago I go scout the puzzle for anyone in need of assistance.

@Kalendraf.9521 said:In addition to a few other collection points, I need to reach a location somewhere near the goggles for the Bolt III: Zap collection. I've tried getting there a few times on my own, but I havan't managed line up the takeoffs and landings for the set of spinning sprockets above the airship that you need to reach the goggles.

Ah right if I'm not mistaken I think a component for Dawn is also near the goggles. I've done ports for both of these as well, typically port ppl to the goggles and then back down to the spot they need, it's not to bad once you know where to look and a good few of us Mesmers do. I keep my guys parked at JP's because I don't rlly pve much so I can help ppl out with em and give both guildies and random players a hand, met some nice folks that way.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

@"Newteck.6403" said:It's like A-net just wanted to annoy people... All the 37 others locations for diving goggles (dive master achievement) are easy access. So why only one location is super hard to access? What's the thinking? PLZ I need help!

For those who actually care about the WHY

The master-diver achievement existed long before Not So Secret was implemented. Back then you did not get a mastery point for completing it, just AP. The diving goggles faced a drastic change during the Living Story 1. It started with the introduction of Southsun Cove. Before that time, all dives were simple to execute, once you reached the spot with the goggles. In Southsun Cove, they decided to add some sort of challenge and fun into the dive itself. The first pair of goggles added in the new style simply forced you to dive into a lava-pit and commit suicide XD. A horrible idea indeed, that is why it never made it into the official diving-master list. Back then it was fun and challenging, because you were able to fail that dive easily and climbing that tower crowded by Karka was not an easy task - reaching it alive was already difficult as hell.

After the southsun cove suicide-dive, we received the first truly hard to reach pair of diving goggles in the game, Not So Secret. It came with the invasion of the Sky Pirates of Tyria, aka Aetherblades. We received a temporary story dungeon (with a very nice set of launch-bugs ^^) and the JP in Gendarran Fields. Back then, noone had a clue about mastery points. I remember the day the JP was released, ANet sent us a letter and marked the POI with the entrance with a green star. Ever wondered why that place has this strange name? That is why. ANet directed all players to this location with all sorts of markers and attention drawing tricks. It was a lot of fun to do, especially with the entire place crowded by people. The mesmers created a horrible chaos, opening portals everywhere. I accidently stept into one myself and ended up at the chest -.-. The goggles were discovered later, but just nothing more than a small source of extra AP. For the completionists, if you say so. Why it was added to the master-diver? It is located in central tyria, permanent accessible. And as the story is no longer playable, it has the same unique "ruins of the past"-situation as most other JPs in the game. Although that past is not that long gone.

After that, we were rewarded with the largest theme-park so far: Bazaar of the Four Winds. A mix of drytop, destinies gorge and VB. We had neither a glider, nore mounts. Just the Zephyrite Aspects with limited charges. Getting arround the Zephyrite Sanctum was challenging and a lot of fun, reaching the goggles without running out of charges was very difficult. The reward was the, by then, deepest dive in the game. Awesome view and tied to an Achievement ofcourse. But sadly temporary content, so no candidate for the master-diver achievement. I'd love to have this one instead of Not-So-Secret. I'd love to replay LS 1 & 2 as well. It would be extremely difficult to make it happen, also because the sanctum was destroyed during the later Living Story. When the Living Story was introduced, it was not intended to be replayable.

The next worth-mentioning diving goggles were added in the Gates of Maguuma of Living Story 2. It started with the above mentioned destruction of the Zephyrite Sanctum :S. These new diving goggles combined both of the previous attempts: difficult to reach due to aspect-charge-shortage and difficult to execute, due to obstacles and a larger horizontal distance to travel. Why was this not added to the master-diver achievement?

• Drytop is reachable with the core-game, but actually belongs to the mordremoth-saga. Same as Southsun Cove it not belongs to core tyria in terms of world completion. So it is theoretically not part of the original game.
• The master-diver on the other hand was created as a core-game achievement. It only works with maps, which always existed and have been always accessible.

The next one was at the end of the Silverwastes JP. It was sort of a bonus reward, easy to reach after the chest and impossible to fail ... not. I've been there with countless of people by now. You would not beleive, how many actually hit the bridge on their way down and die. "Aim between the two lines! I said BETWEEN!!!!!" Nothing in this world is foolproof, ANet knows that as well.

The last diving goggles I mention here are the ones in Verdant Brink. Why? They follow the old pattern of Not So Secret. If you do not do it with a guide or watch a video, it is difficult to get to that spot. Most people I have met in VB have been at that spot countless of times, but never noticed the goggles XD. The dive is extremely long, but the last few meters are nasty. You fall into the crown of a tree and have to 'dodge' the branches before you hit the pool. Like doding the pipes in Not So Secret.

I like the change and appreciate the challenge. But I agree with @Illconceived Was Na.9781 Separating the Not So Secret from the master-diver achievement and giving it an additional MP would have been the better solution for everyone.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

@Solaris.2489 said:I remember doing this jp non stop for 1 week until I could run through it in minutes + port people up to the goggles with 100% success rate. Then they changed it so the discs throw you too far and you have to switch weapons to not fall off. Absolute rubbish mechanic, it was difficult but fair before they changed it.The discs now seem to consider all your speed buffs/debuffs - which means they will overshoot you if you have any speed on. I had that problem for a long time, since i insisted on doing it on a chrono...And yep, it was far better before they broke it.

[Kong.3280]

@Moonlit.6421 said:

I do the same thing in the Chalice of Tears JP normally. If I'm bored or half ago I go scout the puzzle for anyone in need of assistance.

I did the same, always looking and offering help.

@Moonlit.6421 said:

Ah right if I'm not mistaken I think a component for Dawn is also near the goggles.

Four legendary collections take you into NSS.

Bolt on the 3rd highest platformSunrise on the holo projector camouflaging the baseAstralaria item acquired from the JP chestThe Predator also from the chest

[Ramoth.5162]

I need only this for the dive achievement. I am so mad at my husband, as he had the achievement done before this jp was put in. Because I hadn't finished, I now have to do it. :(

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Why? Who knows? Maybe ANet devs get tired of seeing, "X is too easy!" all the time.