Why isnt KDR a bigger part of the war score in wvw?

[MedievalThings.5417]

OP, you literally answered your own question. Mag has such a high KDR because they only fight when they outnumber their opponent by a large number. So, 50 organized vs 25 random = 25 kills for Mag. That is NOT skill, but it is the ONLY way they fight. If you catch a smaller group of Mag running around, and they can't wipe you in 30 seconds, they will have a map que blob appear to guarantee the kills. If the map que blob is too busy farming another smaller group, they will port and wait inside the fully fortified SMC until their map que blob is ready to farm you.

We should not be encouraging megablobs any further by making KDR count more towards the score.Also, if KDR was even more important that it is now, people would just trade kills, or log alts and farm their alts.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:I can't speak about everything Maguuma was doing last night in EB. What I did see was two groups, one running about 25-30 & another about 7-10 (with the usual variations over time, as WvWers come & go). Both groups would only besiege objectives if it was poorly defended; they ran from any fight where they had less than a 2:1 or 3:1 advantage. (That included camps.) They would frequently remain outside an objective, not using siege, to pick off any foes attempting to get in to defend.

Consequently, they didn't die very often and their outnumbered opponents were efficiently converted into bags.

Assuming my narrow observational data was typical, that would generate impressive KDR and almost no points-per-tick.

If KDR was a bigger part of the score, then lots of servers would adopt this sort of game play. And I think it would make the game very dull. Lots of even fights are fun for me. I do like the karma & skirmish rewards we get for purging a map clean of foes, but it's also boring.

To be clear, I don't see anything wrong or unfair about what I perceive Mags to be doing; I just wouldn't enjoy the game mode as much if that was typical of every match up, every week. Your mileage might vary.

And yes, this is the ONLY thing they do and the reason they can't beat BG. I've seen tons of Mag getting crushed by equal or even slightly less numbers (all pug) the last 2 weeks. They just vanish so they don't lower their kdr.

[Donfrigginjuan.5096]

@"Ubi.4136" said:OP, you literally answered your own question. Mag has such a high KDR because they only fight when they outnumber their opponent by a large number. So, 50 organized vs 25 random = 25 kills for Mag. That is NOT skill, but it is the ONLY way they fight. If you catch a smaller group of Mag running around, and they can't wipe you in 30 seconds, they will have a map que blob appear to guarantee the kills. If the map que blob is too busy farming another smaller group, they will port and wait inside the fully fortified SMC until their map que blob is ready to farm you.

We should not be encouraging megablobs any further by making KDR count more towards the score.Also, if KDR was even more important that it is now, people would just trade kills, or log alts and farm their alts.

Its "nop." I once played a game where there were a lot of Egyptians (nice guys, just don't loan them anything). Their word for newby is "nop," and since I will probably never have the equipment or dedication to be the best, I can just claim to be top nop lul. anyway...

You are right about the KDR anomaly, I agree. But servers will stack and know they are getting bags without dieing. Eliminating KDR only ensures servers stack and are allowed to move down to "farm" in a lower tier. Having equal servers fight can help smaller guilds get started, help people play without being angry or otherwise discouraged from connecting to other players. Mag is one server and they face two other servers, if they are oppressed, than that is two servers unhappy for one server that is happy. Losing does not lead to disappointment, being crushed mercessily does.

[Shazmataz.1423]

@NooB.9702 said:

@"Shazmataz.1423" said:Inclusion of kdr in scoring has already created the "run from fights and hide in tower" (or hug smc) mentality....it's like pixel death results in real life death with some guilds and servers.

KDR has given us a situation where alot groups will run from fights unless they vastly outnumber and will be assured of a win. Instead of encouraging fights it seems to have had the opposite effect. There needs to be some other way of encouraging fights over ppt but I'm not sure kdr in it's present form is it.

Maguuma is a real problem in that as a server it manipulates matches and has a toxic playstyle. I don't think there is one server that would say they like having Mag in their matchup. If your group does win a fight against a mag group that has even numbers (that's if they stay to fight in such a situation) then be prepared to have your tag pin sniped and your group blobbed down because Mag kdr must be protected at all costs.

No, dieing and respawning makes people run to and hide in towers.

Only certain kinds of people though....likely those not inclined to fight in the first place. I love wvw and tower hiding/smc hugging revolts me. Stand and fight or gtfo :)

[MedievalThings.5417]

@XenesisII.1540 said:You don't see the major wipes from TC and CD zergs, very costly mistakes are made by their commanders very often. Just last night CD had their zerg wiped twice in five mins in ogrewatch. Camping a couple roamers in a camp doesn't give you a huge kdr like that, wiping entire zergs out often does that. That doesn't mean Mag doesn't wipe in fights, but they do it a lot less than their two opponents which in the long run is obviously going to net them more kills than deaths.

The difference is that the TC zerg is mostly pug and at most 25-40 players. The CD zerg is mostly pug and 20-40 members. The mag zerg is 40-70 players.Even with no mistakes, it is not just possible to lose, but probable. People often make mistakes, but Mag isn't relying on enemy mistakes, they are relying on sheer number to win. 2 to 1 odds every fight is almost guaranteed victories every time. That doesn't mean they have no skill and don't run good comps, but they aren't winning on skill. They are literally blobbing their opponents down. Easy to do when you are a T1 population server in T3.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:If they didn't spawn camp they wouldn't be able to create photo gems like these.

Sadly that picture is 45-50 vs 20. And because the 20 did not listen to the calls of "don't feed them bags". TC is lucky to field even that many on content patch weeks.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Based on my experience, giving more weight to KDR will create a worse WvW experience for people like me who prefer more epic fights. I'm not really interested in whether this is or isn't typical for Mags. My point is that it wasn't fun for us, as their opponents. I'm against making KDR important in scoring because it would encourage this style of play, whereas I think the gamemode would be better off without it.

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:I can't speak about everything Maguuma was doing last night in EB. What I did see was two groups, one running about 25-30 & another about 7-10 (with the usual variations over time, as WvWers come & go). Both groups would only besiege objectives if it was poorly defended; they ran from any fight where they had less than a 2:1 or 3:1 advantage. (That included camps.) They would frequently remain outside an objective, not using siege, to pick off any foes attempting to get in to defend.

Consequently, they didn't die very often and their outnumbered opponents were efficiently converted into bags.

Assuming my narrow observational data was typical, that would generate impressive KDR and almost no points-per-tick.

If KDR was a bigger part of the score, then lots of servers would adopt this sort of game play. And I think it would make the game very dull. Lots of even fights are fun for me. I do like the karma & skirmish rewards we get for purging a map clean of foes, but it's also boring.

To be clear, I don't see anything wrong or unfair about what I perceive Mags to be doing; I just wouldn't enjoy the game mode as much if that was typical of every match up, every week. Your mileage might vary.

You don't see the major wipes from TC and CD zergs, very costly mistakes are made by their commanders very often. Just last night CD had their zerg wiped twice in five mins in ogrewatch. Camping a couple roamers in a camp doesn't give you a huge kdr like that, wiping entire zergs out often does that. That doesn't mean Mag doesn't wipe in fights, but they do it a lot less than their two opponents which in the long run is obviously going to net them more kills than deaths.

I guess I wasn't clear about what I saw. I was not watching Mags "camping a couple of roamers." I saw a group of 25 Mags run away from attacking any objective, including camps, that was actively defended by more than 5 people (if fortified) or 10-15 if not (e.g. camps). I did see Mags successfully outmaneuver PUG groups a couple of times (including near O/W).

Even so, a server can very easily (mathematically) get high KDR by picking off tails, camping spawns, and not spending time besieging defended objectives. It can be done by killing off zergs, but it can also be efficiently done without engaging in large fights.

Regardless, my point is that I only saw Mags fight when they were (almost) unopposed at towers, when they greatly outnumbered in the field, when they were in danger of losing an objective, or when they outplayed less organized groups. (I can't speak for Mags, but none of the commanders I ran with recently on EB were on Voice; there were often more people in the tail then in the main force.) I'm not saying that Mags cannot win an even fight; I'm saying I never saw them choose to try.

And again, I have no problem with this as strategy: it works for Mags (apparently); they have fun & they seem to get good loot, good ticks. But as an opponent, it's dull, very dull.

[Shazmataz.1423]

@Ubi.4136You are so right!

[SWI.4127]

@"Ubi.4136" said:

Sadly that picture is 45-50 vs 20.

My first thought when seeing the picture. Sadly Mag don't want "good fights", they want to farm bags, then say "we don't PPT" as an excuse to stay in lower tiers and beat servers who don't have the resources to fight back.

[XenesisII.1540]

@Ubi.4136 said:The difference is that the TC zerg is mostly pug and at most 25-40 players. The CD zerg is mostly pug and 20-40 members. The mag zerg is 40-70 players.Even with no mistakes, it is not just possible to lose, but probable. People often make mistakes, but Mag isn't relying on enemy mistakes, they are relying on sheer number to win. 2 to 1 odds every fight is almost guaranteed victories every time. That doesn't mean they have no skill and don't run good comps, but they aren't winning on skill. They are literally blobbing their opponents down. Easy to do when you are a T1 population server in T3.

Dude.. you say they disappear when they get crushed by less numbers (even tho you said in another post they don't get one pushed in equal numbers) and then you say they run more numbers than you, and your numbers keep changing, could you keep the story straight please.

At some point people are going to have to admit they're not using proper strategy, proper positioning, proper environment to fight the enemy. Like I said blindly running into a fight without considering all factors is not going to win you fights. It's like those commanders that fight groups that knowingly portal bombed, just did a portal bomb, but next engagement doesn't even consider it happening, yet again. It isn't always ever just numbers that beat you.

[XenesisII.1540]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:I guess I wasn't clear about what I saw. I was not watching Mags "camping a couple of roamers." I saw a group of 25 Mags run away from attacking any objective, including camps, that was actively defended by more than 5 people (if fortified) or 10-15 if not (e.g. camps). I did see Mags successfully outmaneuver PUG groups a couple of times (including near O/W).

Even so, a server can very easily (mathematically) get high KDR by picking off tails, camping spawns, and not spending time besieging defended objectives. It can be done by killing off zergs, but it can also be efficiently done without engaging in large fights.

Regardless, my point is that I only saw Mags fight when they were (almost) unopposed at towers, when they greatly outnumbered in the field, when they were in danger of losing an objective, or when they outplayed less organized groups. (I can't speak for Mags, but none of the commanders I ran with recently on EB were on Voice; there were often more people in the tail then in the main force.) I'm not saying that Mags cannot win an even fight; I'm saying I never saw them choose to try.

And again, I have no problem with this as strategy: it works for Mags (apparently); they have fun & they seem to get good loot, good ticks. But as an opponent, it's dull, very dull.

A group of 25 mag run away from attack an objective that's probably full of siege or they probably got a defense call to something else?Yet they manage to break t3 keeps almost every night that have an entire zerg parked in it fully sieged up. (Personally I hate this having to break into the stupid t3 keep to draw out the enemy and under constant siege fire, it's one of the most unfun things to do in wvw in zerk gear.)

Avoiding large fights and picking off tails and roamers isn't going to get you the highest kills in NA.Killing tails and roamers AND killing off enemies in those large fights is going to get you the highest kills in NA.People can spin that all they want, but the numbers show differently.

[Chaba.5410]

@"NooB.9702" said:Players and guilds will become more comfortable, some will think about t1 and tour there fore stronger fights, others in t1 will get tired of easy kill/bandwagon carry and move to servers that have better communities, miss their friends and move back. Maybe a rainbow will appear in ebg because all the dark thinking and "conspiracies" will be replaced by fairness and the ability to play whenever without being outgunned. The frequency of rage quitting will decline, and high morality equals happy patrons...

There are no stronger fights in T1 and when Mag is in T1 everyone avoids EBG too. You have this wishful thinking going on. BG faced Mag for a year in T1 and have they moved servers to avoid Mag? No. They avoided Mag just like people and guilds in T3 are avoiding Mag until Mag got bored and left T1. I don't think you have played in T1 recently nor played in T1 when Mag is in T1.

The restructuring will have a much bigger impact on playstyles than your suggestion.

[meri.9187]

@"Ubi.4136" said:OP, you literally answered your own question. Mag has such a high KDR because they only fight when they outnumber their opponent by a large number. So, 50 organized vs 25 random = 25 kills for Mag. That is NOT skill, but it is the ONLY way they fight. If you catch a smaller group of Mag running around, and they can't wipe you in 30 seconds, they will have a map que blob appear to guarantee the kills. If the map que blob is too busy farming another smaller group, they will port and wait inside the fully fortified SMC until their map que blob is ready to farm you.

We should not be encouraging megablobs any further by making KDR count more towards the score.Also, if KDR was even more important that it is now, people would just trade kills, or log alts and farm their alts.

I don't think this is quite true. Maguuma picks their fights very well, there will be some fights that they and the opponent have even numbers and they disengage. Just the same, there'll be some fights that they are outnumbered 2:1 and they will win. I dislike them as much as the next guy but it's pretty impossible to argue against the fact that on average, yes, they have the best pugs in NA. Mag's cloud will walk all over your pug zerg in EBG. Mag's roamers, on the other hand, are a different story. Most of the time you do end up outnumbered, cheesed, or whatever it is you want to call it. Some of their players run an actual comp when roaming, and as such, they can fight outnumbered against the thief/mesmer hordes of other servers.

So the truth lies somewhere in the middle. If Mag fought everyone truly even numbers, their KDR would still be above 1 simply because the average Mag pug is less bad than pugs from other servers. Still, I do agree that the grand majority of fights I find myself in when facing them, I'm outnumbered regardless of whether I'm running with a pug zerg, or I'm solo/duo roaming. I have seen the thirst from Mag "roamers" and blobs squirreling to kill one person. But you'd be kidding yourself if you tried to convince yourself that your server would do anything but the same. I'm linked with CD, and facing both TC and Mag, TC blobs and "roaming" groups have squirreled and ganked me even worse. And having been against CD many times, I can confirm that they do the same. And you know what? So do I, sometimes. It's the nature of the game mode.

Anyway, inb4 thread gets locked because "matchup thread"

[Drinks.2361]

you know how happy Mag would be if someone got organized and actually stayed to fight

[MedievalThings.5417]

@"Drinks.2361" said:you know how happy Mag would be if someone got organized an actually stayed to fight

I think you mean "stay and lose", cause when people fight them with even numbers and win, they retreat to SMC until they can double their opponents numbers. Most of the time Mag can quickly summon a map que, most servers (especially in lower tiers) can't. If someone could (or cared to) field their own map que and beat them, they would just stay in SMC. Mag has proven time and time again they don't want "fights". They want a free farm for easy loot.

[Chaba.5410]

@Drinks.2361 said:you know how happy Mag would be if someone got organized an actually stayed to fight

No because every fights guild I've seen for the most part also avoids Mag in EBG due to the T3 SMC cancer. We've fought the Mag cloud. It's not a very enjoyable fight. You're chasing down individuals who just scatter if you're able to deal with the pin sniping. It's more fun to fight actual other guilds.

A paper SMC promotes more actual fights not only between pugs but also between organized guilds.

[XenesisII.1540]

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Drinks.2361" said:you know how happy Mag would be if someone got organized an actually

stayed to fight

I think you mean "stay and lose", cause when people fight them with even numbers and win, they retreat to SMC until they can double their opponents numbers. Most of the time Mag can quickly summon a map que, most servers (especially in lower tiers) can't. If someone could (or cared to) field their own map que and beat them, they would just stay in SMC. Mag has proven time and time again they don't want "fights". They want a free farm for easy loot.

[Drinks.2361]

you know it's a shame when you've got a server that just wants to sit in a keep & use siege...

fairweather that ebg queue, let some guilds actually get in

[Shazmataz.1423]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Drinks.2361 said:you know how happy Mag would be if someone got organized an actually stayed to fight

No because every fights guild I've seen for the most part also avoids Mag in EBG due to the T3 SMC cancer. We've fought the Mag cloud. It's not a very enjoyable fight. You're chasing down individuals who just scatter if you're able to deal with the pin sniping. It's more fun to fight actual other guilds.

A paper SMC promotes more actual fights not only between pugs but also between organized guilds.

Spot on Chaba

[XenesisII.1540]

Why would fight guilds go to ebg anyways? it's usually clugged with pugs and harder for their members to get on during NA prime raid time.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@XenesisII.1540 said:Why would fight guilds go to ebg anyways? it's usually clugged with pugs and harder for their members to get on during NA prime raid time.

Wait... I thought it was because the fight guilds were avoiding Mag?

[Hexinx.1872]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:Why would fight guilds go to ebg anyways? it's usually clugged with pugs and harder for their members to get on during NA prime raid time.

Wait... I thought it was because the fight guilds were avoiding Mag?

Wait I thought it was where pugs all go to, and bags are farm able?

[Tyyphoon.5301]

Welcome to Maguuma! Enjoy your stay!

Some consolation for the OP: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/25616/the-magcloud-needs-you-for-wvw#latest

~Tyy

[shiri.4257]

@XenesisII.1540 said:Why would fight guilds go to ebg anyways? it's usually clugged with pugs and harder for their members to get on during NA prime raid time.

There are no queues in EBG when servers face Mag ^^;;

[XenesisII.1540]

I suppose the two blobs from cd and tc lagging out ebg at 10:30 last night were imaginary.