Mesmer still has to much evade, invulnerability and fucking clone spam please nerf for Grenth's sake

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Nash.3974 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@aDemoNnDisguisE.8576 said:Anet,

This class is still kitten ridiculous to fight and needs more nerfs.The only thing anyone can do is spam AoE in its general direction and hope that the Mesmer screws up and forgets to spam one of its 1000s of evades, vulnerabilities or armies of clones in return.

PLEASE NERF MESMER MORE!Ty.

Sincerely,Everyone Who Has Ever Attempted To Fight A Mesmer Ever

Evades: 2 dodges, possibly one Mirage Cloak utility since the other two are Blink and Portal, up to 3 mirrors on Distortion if they take Desert Distortion (That's much less than 1000s)Invulnerabilities: 1 every 50 seconds and Mirages don't take DominationArmy of Clones: Lol rlly.

Right so I assume this wasn’t meant to make mirage look balanced?I didn’t take anything personal lol, it’s just such bs you are saying that’s why I was so harsh with my comment.But again you had nothing to debunk. Of course everyone has access to the sigil and the rune, but not everybody can use the rune since it has condi damage and also the fact that mirage just happens to synergize well with these is exactly the issue. You can’t have all of this happening and on top of that have runes and sigils synergyzing you to even more brokeness.What needs to happen is survivability has to be toned down as well as the multiply burst ability, because whenever I dodge the mirages burst he can just burst me again and again since nearly every ability bursts you, every ability is offensive and defensive and the fact that the spam condition is confusion leads to even less counterplay because I‘m left with either decide to do nothing and eat the entire burst, or to try to cleanse the condis and die doing that because of the confusion. This can’t be a thing and stealth and detargeting is just even more pathetic on top of that, as if clones wouldn’t give people a hard time focusing the Mesmer already

No, it was meant to draw attention to the exaggeration of the OP.Yes that's why you called me pathetic and took such an aggressive tone because it wasn't personal. What is the 'all of this happening' that you're referring to?I don't disagree, that the durability of Mirage needs to be taken down a peg, preferably by addressing EM first (which I, along with a lot of Mesmer mains asked for on the preview weekend almost a year ago), then looking at Blinding Dissipation which for some reason hasn't been touched even though it's nearly Blinding Ashes level of ridiculous.Not counting Ambushes, there are exactly three offensive & defensive abilities, Echo of Memory which is Chrono exclusive, Illusionary Riposte, and Illusionary Counter. The spam condition is Torment not confusion, although confusion can be stacked up quite high (again Blinding Dissipation & Ineptitude which need to be looked at).I have the same response about stealth as I have when anyone else mentions it, we have exactly 3 good sources of stealth, The Prestige, Decoy, and Signet of Midnight. Two are utilities so you can only take one if you also want to take Blink and Portal and all of them have at least a 30 second base cooldown. There are only 3 sources of detarget, Mirror Images (generally not taken in a condition Mirage build), Axe 3, and Illusionary Ambush it's not that oppressive.Clones aren't suddenly a problem now because Mirage is over tuned, clones weren't a problem before, there are more than enough ways to tell which is the real Mesmer. I'm annoyed with people throwing out the 'so many evades' comment because then they turn around and complain about Blink and Portal which are generally mutually exclusive with the additional evades people keep thinking are there. Realistically, there's always going to be 2 dodges and one weapon skill evade, I don't see what's so difficult about playing around those. Someone made the argument it's about the frequency in another thread, which again the culprit is mostly Sigil of Energy and Adventurer Runes, something everyone has access to. The frequency would be the same against any other class with that set up, but the larger problem is a design issue since tying offensive skills to defensive mechanics (dodging) isn't usually a good idea.

[Nash.3974]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Nash.3974 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@aDemoNnDisguisE.8576 said:Anet,

This class is still kitten ridiculous to fight and needs more nerfs.The only thing anyone can do is spam AoE in its general direction and hope that the Mesmer screws up and forgets to spam one of its 1000s of evades, vulnerabilities or armies of clones in return.

PLEASE NERF MESMER MORE!Ty.

Sincerely,Everyone Who Has Ever Attempted To Fight A Mesmer Ever

Evades: 2 dodges, possibly one Mirage Cloak utility since the other two are Blink and Portal, up to 3 mirrors on Distortion if they take Desert Distortion (That's much less than 1000s)Invulnerabilities: 1 every 50 seconds and Mirages don't take DominationArmy of Clones: Lol rlly.

Right so I assume this wasn’t meant to make mirage look balanced?I didn’t take anything personal lol, it’s just such bs you are saying that’s why I was so harsh with my comment.But again you had nothing to debunk. Of course everyone has access to the sigil and the rune, but not everybody can use the rune since it has condi damage and also the fact that mirage just happens to synergize well with these is exactly the issue. You can’t have all of this happening and on top of that have runes and sigils synergyzing you to even more brokeness.What needs to happen is survivability has to be toned down as well as the multiply burst ability, because whenever I dodge the mirages burst he can just burst me again and again since nearly every ability bursts you, every ability is offensive and defensive and the fact that the spam condition is confusion leads to even less counterplay because I‘m left with either decide to do nothing and eat the entire burst, or to try to cleanse the condis and die doing that because of the confusion. This can’t be a thing and stealth and detargeting is just even more pathetic on top of that, as if clones wouldn’t give people a hard time focusing the Mesmer already

No, it was meant to draw attention to the exaggeration of the OP.Yes that's why you called me pathetic and took such an aggressive tone because it wasn't personal. What is the 'all of this happening' that you're referring to?I don't disagree, that the durability of Mirage needs to be taken down a peg, preferably by addressing EM first (which I, along with a lot of Mesmer mains asked for on the preview weekend almost a year ago), then looking at Blinding Dissipation which for some reason hasn't been touched even though it's nearly Blinding Ashes level of ridiculous.Not counting Ambushes, there are exactly three offensive & defensive abilities, Echo of Memory which is Chrono exclusive, Illusionary Riposte, and Illusionary Counter. The spam condition is Torment not confusion, although confusion can be stacked up quite high (again Blinding Dissipation & Ineptitude which need to be looked at).I have the same response about stealth as I have when anyone else mentions it, we have exactly 3 good sources of stealth, The Prestige, Decoy, and Signet of Midnight. Two are utilities so you can only take one if you also want to take Blink and Portal and all of them have at least a 30 second base cooldown. There are only 3 sources of detarget, Mirror Images (generally not taken in a condition Mirage build), Axe 3, and Illusionary Ambush it's not that oppressive.Clones aren't suddenly a problem now because Mirage is over tuned, clones weren't a problem before, there are more than enough ways to tell which is the real Mesmer. I'm annoyed with people throwing out the 'so many evades' comment because then they turn around and complain about Blink and Portal which are generally mutually exclusive with the additional evades people keep thinking are there. Realistically, there's always going to be 2 dodges and one weapon skill evade, I don't see what's so difficult about playing around those. Someone made the argument it's about the frequency in another thread, which again the culprit is mostly Sigil of Energy and Adventurer Runes, something everyone has access to. The frequency would be the same against any other class with that set up, but the larger problem is a design issue since tying offensive skills to defensive mechanics (dodging) isn't usually a good idea.

Again you totally ignore the fact that due to perma vigor and other abilities you have more than ’2‘ dodges.You have access to ambush skills so often and your clones can use them as well and the fact that mes has so unbelievable many gap closers with jaunt, blink, sword ambush and sword 3 is way too op (jaunt can even be spammed, so does sword ambush).Mirages are nearly immortal how don’t you see that?They can spam survivability in so many ways and disengage easier than thieves can.The issue with the clones is not really the clones in general as I‘ve said, I rather meant the issue with detargeting where you and all your clones teleport to you and you lose target, thats so strong because 1 thing that countered the clone issue was targeting the real Mesmer but that’s taken away from us this way.Mirage just does too many things at the same time.

[phokus.8934]

Mirage needs a buff.

[maddoctor.2738]

The sad part is that when they nerf Mesmer they will nerf the wrong things and not what is actually causing the problems, or nerf things that also affect not-OP builds.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Nash.3974 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Nash.3974 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@aDemoNnDisguisE.8576 said:Anet,

This class is still kitten ridiculous to fight and needs more nerfs.The only thing anyone can do is spam AoE in its general direction and hope that the Mesmer screws up and forgets to spam one of its 1000s of evades, vulnerabilities or armies of clones in return.

PLEASE NERF MESMER MORE!Ty.

Sincerely,Everyone Who Has Ever Attempted To Fight A Mesmer Ever

Evades: 2 dodges, possibly one Mirage Cloak utility since the other two are Blink and Portal, up to 3 mirrors on Distortion if they take Desert Distortion (That's much less than 1000s)Invulnerabilities: 1 every 50 seconds and Mirages don't take DominationArmy of Clones: Lol rlly.

Right so I assume this wasn’t meant to make mirage look balanced?I didn’t take anything personal lol, it’s just such bs you are saying that’s why I was so harsh with my comment.But again you had nothing to debunk. Of course everyone has access to the sigil and the rune, but not everybody can use the rune since it has condi damage and also the fact that mirage just happens to synergize well with these is exactly the issue. You can’t have all of this happening and on top of that have runes and sigils synergyzing you to even more brokeness.What needs to happen is survivability has to be toned down as well as the multiply burst ability, because whenever I dodge the mirages burst he can just burst me again and again since nearly every ability bursts you, every ability is offensive and defensive and the fact that the spam condition is confusion leads to even less counterplay because I‘m left with either decide to do nothing and eat the entire burst, or to try to cleanse the condis and die doing that because of the confusion. This can’t be a thing and stealth and detargeting is just even more pathetic on top of that, as if clones wouldn’t give people a hard time focusing the Mesmer already

No, it was meant to draw attention to the exaggeration of the OP.Yes that's why you called me pathetic and took such an aggressive tone because it wasn't personal. What is the 'all of this happening' that you're referring to?I don't disagree, that the durability of Mirage needs to be taken down a peg, preferably by addressing EM first (which I, along with a lot of Mesmer mains asked for on the preview weekend almost a year ago), then looking at Blinding Dissipation which for some reason hasn't been touched even though it's nearly Blinding Ashes level of ridiculous.Not counting Ambushes, there are exactly three offensive & defensive abilities, Echo of Memory which is Chrono exclusive, Illusionary Riposte, and Illusionary Counter. The spam condition is Torment not confusion, although confusion can be stacked up quite high (again Blinding Dissipation & Ineptitude which need to be looked at).I have the same response about stealth as I have when anyone else mentions it, we have exactly 3 good sources of stealth, The Prestige, Decoy, and Signet of Midnight. Two are utilities so you can only take one if you also want to take Blink and Portal and all of them have at least a 30 second base cooldown. There are only 3 sources of detarget, Mirror Images (generally not taken in a condition Mirage build), Axe 3, and Illusionary Ambush it's not that oppressive.Clones aren't suddenly a problem now because Mirage is over tuned, clones weren't a problem before, there are more than enough ways to tell which is the real Mesmer. I'm annoyed with people throwing out the 'so many evades' comment because then they turn around and complain about Blink and Portal which are generally mutually exclusive with the additional evades people keep thinking are there. Realistically, there's always going to be 2 dodges and one weapon skill evade, I don't see what's so difficult about playing around those. Someone made the argument it's about the frequency in another thread, which again the culprit is mostly Sigil of Energy and Adventurer Runes, something everyone has access to. The frequency would be the same against any other class with that set up, but the larger problem is a design issue since tying offensive skills to defensive mechanics (dodging) isn't usually a good idea.

Again you totally ignore the fact that due to perma vigor and other abilities you have more than ’2‘ dodges.You have access to ambush skills so often and your clones can use them as well and the fact that mes has so unbelievable many gap closers with jaunt, blink, sword ambush and sword 3 is way too op (jaunt can even be spammed, so does sword ambush).Mirages are nearly immortal how don’t you see that?They can spam survivability in so many ways and disengage easier than thieves can.The issue with the clones is not really the clones in general as I‘ve said, I rather meant the issue with detargeting where you and all your clones teleport to you and you lose target, thats so strong because 1 thing that countered the clone issue was targeting the real Mesmer but that’s taken away from us this way.Mirage just does too many things at the same time.

Wow and due to perma vigor any other class can have more than '2' dodges it's almost as if vigor is a generic boon anyone can get.Uh huh. I already admitted Sword ambush does too much. Jaunt can't be spammed, it's 1 every 20 seconds so any meaningful gap closing it can do is limited to once every 60 seconds.You realize Infinite Horizon and Elusive Mind (the actual problem trait) are mutually exclusive right? Ambushes are manageable enough either way.So you have a huge problem with a Mirage choosing a utility skill because they want to detarget and use an Ambush attack? The fact that they can take one of 2 utility skills appears to be some personal affront to you, never mind that again it's super easy to find out which one is real and it's always been that way, suddenly you have to do it more than once per fight and now it's too much? I'll give you a hint, look for the Mirage that isn't just blindly autoattacking. It's that easy.You have no idea what the actual issues are I can tell.

[Noz.4650]

I also hate fighting mirage, but exaggerating every claim doesn't solve anything. Yes the spec has too many ways to buy itself time, but you're suggesting nothing by saying "mesmer has 1000 evades pls nerf". You can't just take away all of their options, you have to start somewhere.

Everyone agrees Elusive Mind is the main issue. Without it the spec would still be strong but way more balanced. It really didn't need the strongest stun break in the game on top of defensive boons/blinds/interrupts/stealth/teleports. Stun break on dodge is too strong regardless of the class, it needs to be reworked and everyone knows it. To me, Blinding Dissipation should be next on the list. The blind uptime is too good considering the class already has good disengage behind those blinds.

Every post on here is overly emotional people who just lost a game and want to blame their loss on something else...

[Ranor.5261]

@"eksn.7264" said:I also hate fighting mirage, but exaggerating every claim doesn't solve anything. Yes the spec has too many ways to buy itself time, but you're suggesting nothing by saying "mesmer has 1000 evades pls nerf". You can't just take away all of their options, you have to start somewhere.

Everyone agrees Elusive Mind is the main issue. Without it the spec would still be strong but way more balanced. It really didn't need the strongest stun break in the game on top of defensive boons/blinds/interrupts/stealth/teleports. Stun break on dodge is too strong regardless of the class, it needs to be reworked and everyone knows it. To me, Blinding Dissipation should be next on the list. The blind uptime is too good considering the class already has good disengage behind those blinds.

Every post on here is overly emotional people who just lost a game and want to blame their loss on something else...

Agreed. I will say that it feels very frustrating to fight a good Mirage, they 'seemingly' have a constant supply of evades, or blinds, or clones. This means that if they space these out well you can have entire attack chains and rotations just whiff entirely while they burst down your health. I'm not going to suggest breaking the class entirely, but we should start by addressing the biggest problems. For me it's the stun break. they're already hard enough to hit with CC as it is, but when you DO manage to hit them it doesn't matter since they can just break it instantly. Following that the constant string of blinds is just frustrating to deal with, since on top of the evades they have the blinds just ensure that nothing you throw will actually land. At least the evades you can catch them out of but as said the blinds cover those gaps where they don't have evasion, which leads to the mentioned frustration.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:I'd still like to see a chart of

the top 100 players and the class distribution among them

.

Just saying. I am genuinely curious how many mesmers there are. Going by these forums it must be 70%+? Maybe even 90%!

That's what i said on the other topic, the problem is that the meta on top level is much different from mid level. Why ? Because it usually takes 1 player, 1 mistake, or 1 bad setup to get chain killed against condi mesmers/scourges. Alternatively, when all 5 people do know how to rotate properly and are willing to reroll from a bad setup, mesmers are surely annoying but handable.

If you play poker on amateur level, you will find people going " All in " at any hand, making it entirely luck based. But you won't see this being done on top level, because this isn't the same at all.

What i mean is that these setups( mirages/scourges/condi thieves) are good for beating average players thanks to solo queue issues, but nowhere help you getting any better..

But at the end of the day, regardless of if you are a professional card player, a royal flush is always better than a fullhouse.

[Vague Memory.2817]

I wish people would be more specific. People can't even tell the difference between Chrono and Mirage. Mirage evade/distortion and blur uptime is quite frankly silly, and this is from a power chrono main. The mirage specific evades coupled with the core mes damage avoidance skills is arguably better than an evade build thief.

[FyzE.3472]

@Vague Memory.2817 said:I wish people would be more specific. People can't even tell the difference between Chrono and Mirage. Mirage evade/distortion and blur uptime is quite frankly silly, and this is from a power chrono main. The mirage specific evades coupled with the core mes damage avoidance skills is arguably better than an evade build thief.

What's the point? Anet will just nerf something with minimal effort and call it balance a patch (like I've seen times before). Ignoring every single good suggestion on how to adjust something in a smart way.

[Solori.6025]

@Vague Memory.2817 said:I wish people would be more specific. People can't even tell the difference between Chrono and Mirage. Mirage evade/distortion and blur uptime is quite frankly silly, and this is from a power chrono main. The mirage specific evades coupled with the core mes damage avoidance skills is arguably better than an evade build thief.

No it isn't, it's not even close. This is the exaggerated misinformation campaign people talk about

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

So balance Elusive mind and Sword ambush and mirage will be fine? This is essentially the majority of the complaints I read here. I dont use either in my mirage build(s) so balance away :p

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

@"eksn.7264" said:I also hate fighting mirage, but exaggerating every claim doesn't solve anything. Yes the spec has too many ways to buy itself time, but you're suggesting nothing by saying "mesmer has 1000 evades pls nerf". You can't just take away all of their options, you have to start somewhere.

Everyone agrees Elusive Mind is the main issue. Without it the spec would still be strong but way more balanced. It really didn't need the strongest stun break in the game on top of defensive boons/blinds/interrupts/stealth/teleports. Stun break on dodge is too strong regardless of the class, it needs to be reworked and everyone knows it. To me, Blinding Dissipation should be next on the list. The blind uptime is too good considering the class already has good disengage behind those blinds.

Every post on here is overly emotional people who just lost a game and want to blame their loss on something else...

I don't think so... I have lost lots of times to lots of people classes and metas over the years.Never posted anything about them until now... that is how bad Mesmer balance is.

The bottom line is that Mesmer needs to be nerfed savagely, immediately and permanently.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

@maddoctor.2738 said:The sad part is that when they nerf Mesmer they will nerf the wrong things and not what is actually causing the problems, or nerf things that also affect not-OP builds.Yeah because the same happened to chrono when they nerfed chrono bunker, right?

Wait..

[McZero.5318]

@Solori.6025 said: Condi's should never be burst

Been saying this for months.

[whoknocks.4935]

@Dawdler.8521 said:I'd still like to see a chart of the top 100 players and the class distribution among them.

Just saying. I am genuinely curious how many mesmers there are. Going by these forums it must be 70%+? Maybe even 90%!

I don't know why there is always someone who ask for the % of that profession in the top 100 leaderboard.

Mesmer is stupidly broken and unfun to play against, a worst player have an advantage on a better player both in pvp and in wvw as well.

Is it present 1% or 90% in the top 100? Who the kitten cares, it needs a balance, end of the story.

[mortrialus.3062]

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I'd still like to see a chart of

the top 100 players and the class distribution among them

.

Just saying. I am genuinely curious how many mesmers there are. Going by these forums it must be 70%+? Maybe even 90%!

I don't know why there is always someone who ask for the % of that profession in the top 100 leaderboard.

Mesmer is stupidly broken and unfun to play against, a worst player have an advantage on a better player both in pvp and in wvw as well.

Is it present 1% or 90% in the top 100? Who the kitten cares, it needs a balance, end of the story.

How used and successful something is tells us a huge amount of it's capabilities. It's why other PvP games like LoL, MtG, DoTA, and hearthstone provide tons of data about what is actively being used, how frequently, it's win rate and tons of other statistics. It's something we should be informed of.

[whoknocks.4935]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I'd still like to see a chart of

the top 100 players and the class distribution among them

.

Just saying. I am genuinely curious how many mesmers there are. Going by these forums it must be 70%+? Maybe even 90%!

I don't know why there is always someone who ask for the % of that profession in the top 100 leaderboard.

Mesmer is stupidly broken and unfun to play against, a worst player have an advantage on a better player both in pvp and in wvw as well.

Is it present 1% or 90% in the top 100? Who the kitten cares, it needs a balance, end of the story.

How used and successful something is tells us a huge amount of it's capabilities. It's why other PvP games like LoL, MtG, DoTA, and hearthstone provide tons of data about what is actively being used, how frequently, it's win rate and tons of other statistics. It's something we should be informed of.

If I am not wrong the profession got banned from AT tournaments. If it's true this says more than any %.

Hearthstone? It has only a 1vs1 scenario.sPvP is made 5vs5, obviously won't be only mesmers playing, so the % in the leaderboard is not a trusty spot to find your statistics.

When they nerf a profession they don't say: we nerfed mesmer because present 90% in the top 100 leaderboard.But: It was clear how the community feedback about mesmer and the unfun to play against the profession made us nerf this and that yada yada yada.

[mortrialus.3062]

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I'd still like to see a chart of

the top 100 players and the class distribution among them

.

Just saying. I am genuinely curious how many mesmers there are. Going by these forums it must be 70%+? Maybe even 90%!

I don't know why there is always someone who ask for the % of that profession in the top 100 leaderboard.

Mesmer is stupidly broken and unfun to play against, a worst player have an advantage on a better player both in pvp and in wvw as well.

Is it present 1% or 90% in the top 100? Who the kitten cares, it needs a balance, end of the story.

How used and successful something is tells us a huge amount of it's capabilities. It's why other PvP games like LoL, MtG, DoTA, and hearthstone provide tons of data about what is actively being used, how frequently, it's win rate and tons of other statistics. It's something we should be informed of.

If I am not wrong the profession got banned from AT tournaments. If it's true this says more than any %.

Hearthstone? It has only a 1vs1 scenario.sPvP is made 5vs5, obviously won't be only mesmers playing, so the % in the leaderboard is not a trusty spot to find your statistics.

When they nerf a profession they don't say: we nerfed mesmer because present 90% in the top 100 leaderboard.But: It was clear how the community feedback about mesmer and the unfun to play against the profession made us nerf this and that yada yada yada.

Mesmer is not banned from Automated Tournaments. Arenanet would never do that unless there wasa truly game breaking bug that caused crashes or something similar.

Counter Strike Go, LoL, and DotA 2 all all team based and provide really useful data on usage.

If mesmers made up 10% of people with 120 games last season and had 20% of the top 100, heck even 15%, that would be extremely useful information for players and devs and very telling.

[bravan.3876]

@Nash.3974 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Nash.3974 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@aDemoNnDisguisE.8576 said:Anet,

This class is still kitten ridiculous to fight and needs more nerfs.The only thing anyone can do is spam AoE in its general direction and hope that the Mesmer screws up and forgets to spam one of its 1000s of evades, vulnerabilities or armies of clones in return.

PLEASE NERF MESMER MORE!Ty.

Sincerely,Everyone Who Has Ever Attempted To Fight A Mesmer Ever

Evades: 2 dodges, possibly one Mirage Cloak utility since the other two are Blink and Portal, up to 3 mirrors on Distortion if they take Desert Distortion (That's much less than 1000s)Invulnerabilities: 1 every 50 seconds and Mirages don't take DominationArmy of Clones: Lol rlly.

Right so I assume this wasn’t meant to make mirage look balanced?I didn’t take anything personal lol, it’s just such bs you are saying that’s why I was so harsh with my comment.But again you had nothing to debunk. Of course everyone has access to the sigil and the rune, but not everybody can use the rune since it has condi damage and also the fact that mirage just happens to synergize well with these is exactly the issue. You can’t have all of this happening and on top of that have runes and sigils synergyzing you to even more brokeness.What needs to happen is survivability has to be toned down as well as the multiply burst ability, because whenever I dodge the mirages burst he can just burst me again and again since nearly every ability bursts you, every ability is offensive and defensive and the fact that the spam condition is confusion leads to even less counterplay because I‘m left with either decide to do nothing and eat the entire burst, or to try to cleanse the condis and die doing that because of the confusion. This can’t be a thing and stealth and detargeting is just even more pathetic on top of that, as if clones wouldn’t give people a hard time focusing the Mesmer already

No, it was meant to draw attention to the exaggeration of the OP.Yes that's why you called me pathetic and took such an aggressive tone because it wasn't personal. What is the 'all of this happening' that you're referring to?I don't disagree, that the durability of Mirage needs to be taken down a peg, preferably by addressing EM first (which I, along with a lot of Mesmer mains asked for on the preview weekend almost a year ago), then looking at Blinding Dissipation which for some reason hasn't been touched even though it's nearly Blinding Ashes level of ridiculous.Not counting Ambushes, there are exactly three offensive & defensive abilities, Echo of Memory which is Chrono exclusive, Illusionary Riposte, and Illusionary Counter. The spam condition is Torment not confusion, although confusion can be stacked up quite high (again Blinding Dissipation & Ineptitude which need to be looked at).I have the same response about stealth as I have when anyone else mentions it, we have exactly 3 good sources of stealth, The Prestige, Decoy, and Signet of Midnight. Two are utilities so you can only take one if you also want to take Blink and Portal and all of them have at least a 30 second base cooldown. There are only 3 sources of detarget, Mirror Images (generally not taken in a condition Mirage build), Axe 3, and Illusionary Ambush it's not that oppressive.Clones aren't suddenly a problem now because Mirage is over tuned, clones weren't a problem before, there are more than enough ways to tell which is the real Mesmer. I'm annoyed with people throwing out the 'so many evades' comment because then they turn around and complain about Blink and Portal which are generally mutually exclusive with the additional evades people keep thinking are there. Realistically, there's always going to be 2 dodges and one weapon skill evade, I don't see what's so difficult about playing around those. Someone made the argument it's about the frequency in another thread, which again the culprit is mostly Sigil of Energy and Adventurer Runes, something everyone has access to. The frequency would be the same against any other class with that set up, but the larger problem is a design issue since tying offensive skills to defensive mechanics (dodging) isn't usually a good idea.

Again you totally ignore the fact that due to perma vigor and other abilities you have more than ’2‘ dodges.You have access to ambush skills so often and your clones can use them as well and the fact that mes has so unbelievable many gap closers with jaunt, blink, sword ambush and sword 3 is way too op (jaunt can even be spammed, so does sword ambush).Mirages are nearly immortal how don’t you see that?They can spam survivability in so many ways and disengage easier than thieves can.The issue with the clones is not really the clones in general as I‘ve said, I rather meant the issue with detargeting where you and all your clones teleport to you and you lose target, thats so strong because 1 thing that countered the clone issue was targeting the real Mesmer but that’s taken away from us this way.Mirage just does too many things at the same time.

I rly would like to see some footage playing power mirage from all ppl whinning about it in this forum and that vs not total noobs. I give both hands that 100% of the ppl complaining about unkillable mirage are a free kill on a marauder/berserker or even demolisher shatter mirage for every not totally unexperienced or totally untalented player. I can be honest enough to myself that i can't play power mirage in higher ranked pvp (plat3+) and most ppl complaining here are not even plat3 with a lame metabuild carry them. The best noobfilter always was and still is: when ppl complain about power mes you know they are bad. I remember only one time a pure glass power shatter mes was op and that was pre hot after traitline reword when powerblock suddenly hit with 7-10k what got fixed very fast.I rly can't take ppl complaining about builds they neither have enough skill nor IQ to play themself nor try to understand at least how to fight against it with their way easier to play carry meta builds and then they cry until even the last mesmer cannot make it work and we only see brainless condimirages/every other metabuild in pvp finally. I'm happy when i see a power mirage in the other team, that is at least one easy target cannot facetank 20 mistakes and still does more overall dmg than a high risk build.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I'd still like to see a chart of

the top 100 players and the class distribution among them

.

Just saying. I am genuinely curious how many mesmers there are. Going by these forums it must be 70%+? Maybe even 90%!

I don't know why there is always someone who ask for the % of that profession in the top 100 leaderboard.

Mesmer is stupidly broken and unfun to play against, a worst player have an advantage on a better player both in pvp and in wvw as well.

Is it present 1% or 90% in the top 100? Who the kitten cares, it needs a balance, end of the story.

That is a relevant question because mesmer is a good noobkiller because all new but also bad player get easy confused by clones. Means every noob can ez kill/ oneshot some other noobs. Power mirage gets hard to play the moment you face ppl not completely clueless.

[whoknocks.4935]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I'd still like to see a chart of

the top 100 players and the class distribution among them

.

Just saying. I am genuinely curious how many mesmers there are. Going by these forums it must be 70%+? Maybe even 90%!

I don't know why there is always someone who ask for the % of that profession in the top 100 leaderboard.

Mesmer is stupidly broken and unfun to play against, a worst player have an advantage on a better player both in pvp and in wvw as well.

Is it present 1% or 90% in the top 100? Who the kitten cares, it needs a balance, end of the story.

How used and successful something is tells us a huge amount of it's capabilities. It's why other PvP games like LoL, MtG, DoTA, and hearthstone provide tons of data about what is actively being used, how frequently, it's win rate and tons of other statistics. It's something we should be informed of.

If I am not wrong the profession got banned from AT tournaments. If it's true this says more than any %.

Hearthstone? It has only a 1vs1 scenario.sPvP is made 5vs5, obviously won't be only mesmers playing, so the % in the leaderboard is not a trusty spot to find your statistics.

When they nerf a profession they don't say: we nerfed mesmer because present 90% in the top 100 leaderboard.But: It was clear how the community feedback about mesmer and the unfun to play against the profession made us nerf this and that yada yada yada.

Mesmer is not banned from Automated Tournaments. Arenanet would never do that unless there wasa truly game breaking bug that caused crashes or something similar.

Counter Strike Go, LoL, and DotA 2 all all team based and provide really useful data on usage.

If mesmers made up 10% of people with 120 games last season and had 20% of the top 100, heck even 15%, that would be extremely useful information for players and devs and very telling.

Anet didn't ban it from AT of course, but I heard the community of players did and they won't play it. But can be fake.

Profession popularity is not an index if a build is broken, this is my point, buy maybe easy to play could be a factor too of it's popularity, that's why you see around a crazy amount of scourges with Legend titles, carried by the profession they climbed the leaderboard.

But mesmer is definetely too unbalanced, unfun to play against and too low risk high reward, and even if it's not the most common profession used in the top 100 this is a fact shared by the majority if not all players (expect mesmer mains who call everything l2p issue).

[mortrialus.3062]

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I'd still like to see a chart of

the top 100 players and the class distribution among them

.

Just saying. I am genuinely curious how many mesmers there are. Going by these forums it must be 70%+? Maybe even 90%!

I don't know why there is always someone who ask for the % of that profession in the top 100 leaderboard.

Mesmer is stupidly broken and unfun to play against, a worst player have an advantage on a better player both in pvp and in wvw as well.

Is it present 1% or 90% in the top 100? Who the kitten cares, it needs a balance, end of the story.

How used and successful something is tells us a huge amount of it's capabilities. It's why other PvP games like LoL, MtG, DoTA, and hearthstone provide tons of data about what is actively being used, how frequently, it's win rate and tons of other statistics. It's something we should be informed of.

If I am not wrong the profession got banned from AT tournaments. If it's true this says more than any %.

Hearthstone? It has only a 1vs1 scenario.sPvP is made 5vs5, obviously won't be only mesmers playing, so the % in the leaderboard is not a trusty spot to find your statistics.

When they nerf a profession they don't say: we nerfed mesmer because present 90% in the top 100 leaderboard.But: It was clear how the community feedback about mesmer and the unfun to play against the profession made us nerf this and that yada yada yada.

Mesmer is not banned from Automated Tournaments. Arenanet would never do that unless there wasa truly game breaking bug that caused crashes or something similar.

Counter Strike Go, LoL, and DotA 2 all all team based and provide really useful data on usage.

If mesmers made up 10% of people with 120 games last season and had 20% of the top 100, heck even 15%, that would be extremely useful information for players and devs and very telling.

Anet didn't ban it from AT of course, but I heard the community of players did and they won't play it. But can be fake.

Profession popularity is not an index if a build is broken, this is my point, buy maybe easy to play could be a factor too of it's popularity, that's why you see around a crazy amount of scourges with Legend titles, carried by the profession they climbed the leaderboard.

But mesmer is definetely too unbalanced, unfun to play against and too low risk high reward, and even if it's not the most common profession used in the top 100 this is a fact shared by the majority if not all players (expect mesmer mains who call everything l2p issue).

Usage statistics and win ratios are literally some of the best measurements for measuring how much something is over performing in a game. Get that through your skull.

[whoknocks.4935]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I'd still like to see a chart of

the top 100 players and the class distribution among them

.

Just saying. I am genuinely curious how many mesmers there are. Going by these forums it must be 70%+? Maybe even 90%!

I don't know why there is always someone who ask for the % of that profession in the top 100 leaderboard.

Mesmer is stupidly broken and unfun to play against, a worst player have an advantage on a better player both in pvp and in wvw as well.

Is it present 1% or 90% in the top 100? Who the kitten cares, it needs a balance, end of the story.

How used and successful something is tells us a huge amount of it's capabilities. It's why other PvP games like LoL, MtG, DoTA, and hearthstone provide tons of data about what is actively being used, how frequently, it's win rate and tons of other statistics. It's something we should be informed of.

If I am not wrong the profession got banned from AT tournaments. If it's true this says more than any %.

Hearthstone? It has only a 1vs1 scenario.sPvP is made 5vs5, obviously won't be only mesmers playing, so the % in the leaderboard is not a trusty spot to find your statistics.

When they nerf a profession they don't say: we nerfed mesmer because present 90% in the top 100 leaderboard.But: It was clear how the community feedback about mesmer and the unfun to play against the profession made us nerf this and that yada yada yada.

Mesmer is not banned from Automated Tournaments. Arenanet would never do that unless there wasa truly game breaking bug that caused crashes or something similar.

Counter Strike Go, LoL, and DotA 2 all all team based and provide really useful data on usage.

If mesmers made up 10% of people with 120 games last season and had 20% of the top 100, heck even 15%, that would be extremely useful information for players and devs and very telling.

Anet didn't ban it from AT of course, but I heard the community of players did and they won't play it. But can be fake.

Profession popularity is not an index if a build is broken, this is my point, buy maybe easy to play could be a factor too of it's popularity, that's why you see around a crazy amount of scourges with Legend titles, carried by the profession they climbed the leaderboard.

But mesmer is definetely too unbalanced, unfun to play against and too low risk high reward, and even if it's not the most common profession used in the top 100 this is a fact shared by the majority if not all players (expect mesmer mains who call everything l2p issue).

Usage statistics and win ratios are literally some of the best measurements for measuring how much something is over performing in a game. Get that through your skull.

And in every post about nerfing spellbreaker or scourge someone with statistics: so tell me the % of scourges in the top 100? They are not even 5%. But still they nerfed it because of how broken it was and not how much was played by everyone. Statistics are a starting point, but it's not something that tells you how a class is bad designed and unfun to play against.

Go play wvw and find yourself in a 1vs1 with a pro mirage, no statistics or leadrrboards there, but still the build needs to be balanced.

[mortrialus.3062]

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:I'd still like to see a chart of

the top 100 players and the class distribution among them

.

Just saying. I am genuinely curious how many mesmers there are. Going by these forums it must be 70%+? Maybe even 90%!

I don't know why there is always someone who ask for the % of that profession in the top 100 leaderboard.

Mesmer is stupidly broken and unfun to play against, a worst player have an advantage on a better player both in pvp and in wvw as well.

Is it present 1% or 90% in the top 100? Who the kitten cares, it needs a balance, end of the story.

How used and successful something is tells us a huge amount of it's capabilities. It's why other PvP games like LoL, MtG, DoTA, and hearthstone provide tons of data about what is actively being used, how frequently, it's win rate and tons of other statistics. It's something we should be informed of.

If I am not wrong the profession got banned from AT tournaments. If it's true this says more than any %.

Hearthstone? It has only a 1vs1 scenario.sPvP is made 5vs5, obviously won't be only mesmers playing, so the % in the leaderboard is not a trusty spot to find your statistics.

When they nerf a profession they don't say: we nerfed mesmer because present 90% in the top 100 leaderboard.But: It was clear how the community feedback about mesmer and the unfun to play against the profession made us nerf this and that yada yada yada.

Mesmer is not banned from Automated Tournaments. Arenanet would never do that unless there wasa truly game breaking bug that caused crashes or something similar.

Counter Strike Go, LoL, and DotA 2 all all team based and provide really useful data on usage.

If mesmers made up 10% of people with 120 games last season and had 20% of the top 100, heck even 15%, that would be extremely useful information for players and devs and very telling.

Anet didn't ban it from AT of course, but I heard the community of players did and they won't play it. But can be fake.

Profession popularity is not an index if a build is broken, this is my point, buy maybe easy to play could be a factor too of it's popularity, that's why you see around a crazy amount of scourges with Legend titles, carried by the profession they climbed the leaderboard.

But mesmer is definetely too unbalanced, unfun to play against and too low risk high reward, and even if it's not the most common profession used in the top 100 this is a fact shared by the majority if not all players (expect mesmer mains who call everything l2p issue).

Usage statistics and win ratios are literally some of the best measurements for measuring how much something is over performing in a game. Get that through your skull.

And in every post about nerfing spellbreaker or scourge someone with statistics:

so tell me the % of scourges in the top 100? They are not even 5%.

But still they nerfed it because of how broken it was and not how much was played by everyone. Statistics are a starting point, but it's not something that tells you how a class is bad designed and unfun to play against.

Go play wvw and find yourself in a 1vs1 with a pro mirage, no statistics or leadrrboards there, but still the build needs to be balanced.

And you know the bolded how? As far as I know, only Arenanet has access to that information as far as I know, unless you specifically charted out the entire top 100 and gathered information on who ranked, and what classes they played, how much they played those classes and win ratios with each class you're talking out of your ass.

Also bringing up WvW in the SPvP is a joke. It's impossible to balance and the capacity for people to min / max their gear into becoming unstoppable juggernauts is much higher than in SPvP where amulets are limited. Yeah, condi mirage is a monster in WvW compared to SPvP. I'm quite away. Condi Mirage in SPvP runs Carrion Amulet, so that power on the amulet is mediocre if not kind of worthless. In WvW any good condi mirage is going to be running Trailblazer, making a class that is above top tier in SPvP 30% stronger both offensively and defensively. And that doesn't even count 40% Endurance Regen food. WvW Mirage is an entirely different beast than SPvP and if you want to bitch about WvW the proper subforum is here since seem to have trouble reading.

Like, I agree with you Condi Mirage needs adjustments but my god are you completely incapable of even talking about it.

[Faux Play.6104]

I've played since beta. The way Mesmer is now makes me not want to play the game. Scourge was bad, but the Mesmer rework has been the nail in the coffin for me. Scourge you can at least range down, and it was pretty much one dimensional. A couple nerfs mostly brought it into line for PvP. Mesmer has too many good options compared to other classes.

There is too much of a visual mess when you play a good one to see what is really going on. Their AI does way too much for them, and there isn't good conterplay to deny the AI besides have multiple people that do large AOE damage.

They have very strong range pressure and so much evade and cc immunity that it is virtually impossible to get to one that isn't just randomly mashing buttons.