Revenant would be more fun if weapon skills didn't cost energy.

[thebatman.6250]

I wouldn't mind seeing energy removed from skills for a day. I'd love to see revenants walk onto a point and just spam sw4 until their out of energy and then watch explode as they try to escape. :)

[Justine.6351]

@thebatman.6250 said:I wouldn't mind seeing energy removed from skills for a day. I'd love to see revenants walk onto a point and just spam sw4 until their out of energy and then watch explode as they try to escape. :)

sword skills have cooldowns...

[thebatman.6250]

rremove the CD and make it energy cost only then :^)

[Opopanax.1803]

Remove weapon energy cost, just use CDs.

All utilities and elites now use initiative. Rebalance using initiative costs.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:The amount of rebalancing of the entire class that would be needed (literally every single revenant skill, 71 total) is reason enough to not remove energy on weapon skills. Not to mention the potential disastrous results it could bring for the class as a whole (or make us incredibly OP, which wouldn’t be good either). If these changes were made it would also take them literal months (3+ bare minimum) or even possibly years to fix any sort of new imbalances or bugs. Currently, Revenant performs well in all game modes. I’d rather them work on addressing underused aspects of the class and making more variation viable.

The only problem with this is you're fixing a bunch of issues or making things balanced, but you aren't addressing the underlying issues with the foundation of the class that ultimately make it hard to create e-specs that alter the class mechanic at all, you get weird balancing issues where it seems the only usefull skills are upkeep skills which turn into bland playstyles, theres a problem balancing around an energy mechanic that starts you out at halfway but yet is balanced for a full energy bar, thus resulting in balance that is overpowered when above 50 energy, or underpowered when below 50 energy, and the subsequent lack of the ability to manipulate and play with the energy bar. Anything without a cooldown is extremely over the top in energy cost. But the problem is is that all these things are just a side affect of the energy system and the shotty implementation of legend swapping and revenant skill bar concepts.

Now its not terrible because I still love rev and play it but not a lot of improvements can be done when the foundation of the class is so unfit for the game. the fact that energy costs are on both weapon and utilities means that everything needs to be overcosted. This is because you need extra energy (in comparison to thief initiative) in order to use your full range of skills. But a full bar at the start would allow for too much spike potential if no cooldowns on weapon and utility skills. So they give us half a bar that can regen. But since things need to be balanced around more than half energy, the cost of skills are too high to get adequate use out of them. So they drop the energy cost a bit, then add cooldowns. Great, now we have cooldowns and energy. Love it (not). So now we have gated weapon skills whos only purpose of having energy is to limit the amount of utilities you can use. The utility skills are mostly useless though since they are connected to legends and try there best to not work with any build or mesh with any other legend. Theres some decent utilities dont get me wrong, but most are upkeep skills because any other skill is too expensive to even consider using unless you have been AA'ing for 10 seconds and doing nothing else.

Now in giant world bosses, or anything relatively casual this is not an issue. I can build up energy all day long because it really doesn't matter what I do. Only in this situation do I have the option to save energy or spend it. In any content that requires any sort of skill you will not get this freedom as most of the time you'll need to be dodging, using utility skills, or dumping dps because thats how this game is made, for just straight up dps mainly (besides chrono/firebrand or whatever). The only time you are able to build up energy is if you are literally not needed in the fight or if you just hit 0 energy and your legend swap is on cooldown.

And I guess my final complaint is who decided no (or low) cooldowns on utility skills was a good idea? they are utility skills meant for specific situations or to save your ass. None of them are designed to be useful for spamming (maybe UA and/or stunbreaker, but theyre all too expensive to spam anyway). All this does is make it very inconvenient to save 30 energy in order to break out of a stun. If they wanted to do that they should have designed utilities more like weapon skills and weapon skills more like utilities, But this basically just swapping the sides of the skill bar. So either way, It just lacks a lot of purpose for me.

TL;DR just read it if you really want to. But really, when do you have the leisure to build energy?

[starlinvf.1358]

@ScottBroChill.3254 said:

@"narcx.3570" said:That's why if you decide to go all in for a kill with Shiro you better kitten well kill the target or at least make sure that you'll have either your legend swap or your weapon swap to staff up in time to escape.

Do you really not think that it would be imbalanced to be able to dump 100 energy into a one-trick combo, and then still be able to use all of your escape skills to disengage after?

Nah, because if they balanced it you wouldn't have one trick combos which I think are a little toxic anyway. You would be able to duel. I don't know what would be better for the class, but sometimes the escape skills or 'get out of jail free' skills that every other class has access too via utilities and traits, well they seem useless on rev because of the energy cost tied to the skills making them almost unusable 80% of the time. The problem is many other classes can have the focused spike damage that rev gets with glint/shiro, but they don't sacrifice there escape skills in order to achieve it. A wee bit exaggerated because I don't think it's THAT big of a deal and rev performs fine overall, I just think the energy balance in its current iteration could use some improvement. maybe higher weapon skill cost, lower utility cost. I know this is a slightly different scenario, but take thief for example because it also uses resource management. It starts with its bar full, it can go in and blow all its initiative fast, it could spend it slowly and fight more like a duelist, it has options with its system. And even then it still has its utility bar that isn't sacrificed, so there is a slight safety net. So in theory the options shouldnt be between attack and die, or survive but do nothing for 10 seconds. It's not that extreme of course, but thats the general idea I'm getting at.

edit: we do have the legend swap which would alleviate the problems I've stated, except that we really only have two legends who can keep you alive, glint/shiro, and one of them is tied to an elite spec. None of the other legends have anything thats going to keep you alive. Jalis is the most bizarre set of utilities I've seen, mallyx is just offensive with weird cast times with UA, centaur dude is only usefull in a healing bunker build, and kalla is well kalla. Won't help you survive if you're focused but does assist well in team survival.

I can explain Jalis pretty easily. Its designed to combat sustained damage, which is something players are never threatened by in normal circumstances. The Damage reductions blunt incoming damage, but enough spike/surge damage can still overwhelm it. And unlike Shiro, which can escape being hit, Jalis was meant to tank it. If you were to design a Bunker build for tanking, Jalis actually starts to make sense with its ability to hold ground, amplify defensive stats, and a strong emphasis on Stability, Taunt and Retaliation.

But like anything else in the numbers game...... Damage trumps defenses, because damage can scale indefinitely, while defenses do not. Consider how Warrior is way more effective at this, without having to invest in defensive stats, because several of their defenses are based on Immunity rather then Reduction. If you were to take a Jalis Tank build into WvW, a Zerg bomb could still kill you through sheer damage.... and that kind of highlights some of the issues.

Another thing that doesn't get brought up often is how most classes have the ability to "rebound" after suffering major damage. Most of this comes in the form of a strong healing skill, or set of healing skills, that gets you back up to full health. Some classes can also reset their abilities mid-combat, offering another round of defenses or useful utilities. Because most abilities are based on effective cool down (IE time limited), the longer a fight goes on, the less reliable your defenses can overlap..... but that only applies if the incoming damage is outpacing your defenses. Flip it around with low incoming damage, and those defenses aren't being taxed. Eventually if they do drag your health down, you can simply reset the situation by using a heal to bring your health back up, forcing the attacker to start the process over again.

[thebatman.6250]

@Opopanax.1803 said:Remove weapon energy cost, just use CDs.

All utilities and elites now use initiative. Rebalance using initiative costs.

heavy armored thief incoming B)

[Aeolus.3615]

@thebatman.6250 said:

@"Opopanax.1803" said:Remove weapon energy cost, just use CDs.

All utilities and elites now use initiative. Rebalance using initiative costs.

heavy armored thief incoming B)I can imagine 2 weapons and its legends use it...

GS sumurai style Revenant couuuuuld use a initiative mechanic xD, https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kaineng_Tah has legend.Dagger/dagger Rev using https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nika has its legend.Shiro was assassin but was also a magic user so energy based feels on theme.

IMO, not every legend needs to be energy based i think, convert every rev legend to initiative that would be dulll... and wrong.

[thebatman.6250]

bruh. let me find out GS rev is in so I can finally run around with twilight. Make an edgelord happy pls

[ScottBroChill.3254]

@"starlinvf.1358" said:

I can explain Jalis pretty easily. Its designed to combat sustained damage, which is something players are never threatened by in normal circumstances. The Damage reductions blunt incoming damage, but enough spike/surge damage can still overwhelm it. And unlike Shiro, which can escape being hit, Jalis was meant to tank it. If you were to design a Bunker build for tanking, Jalis actually starts to make sense with its ability to hold ground, amplify defensive stats, and a strong emphasis on Stability, Taunt and Retaliation.

I understand the idea behind it and what its meant to do, but yeah I was more so curious on what it can actually do. It barely has damage reduction, nothing to save you, its stun break is on a 40 energy elite, its heal has cast time making it easily interruptable or youll get killed before getting it off if you're in any kind of damage taking postion, I'm confused about the varying distances of skill in the class. Then its passive heal is on its upkeep that requires you to be close range and hitting enemies. And for the weapon, thematically and skill wise it seems that hammer is supposed to go with jalis, but it doesnt and neither does staff necessarily. Staff is the best fit due to its defensive nature, but the weapon still has traits tied to centaur and the staff has probably taken a hit or two due to the healing attached to the weapon. As much as I like the ranged hammer asthetics and its good for wvw, we should have gotten a close range cc weapon that works with jalis. Staff works enough I guess, but I feel like it wasnt supposed to be the weapon to use. Like I get the intentions of Jalis, you create the road and use the upkeep for damage reduction and pull people in with the taunt, but in what way is its current implimentation doing any of that. Taunt is the most useless cc condi because of its short duration (maybe its meant for cc bars idk), I like the road, the heal would be nice with no cast time, confused about the stunbreak being on expensive elite because of how much of a necessity a stunbreak is on the utility (I get we have legend swap but still). For shiro I don't necessarily have a problem with it as I think its the best core legend, but its not neccessarily that it has anything in the kit that makes it really good, its just not bad. It has extremely expensive escape and shadowstep, it's ult is very situational due to 50 energy cost, its heal is lackluster, it just has IO that makes AA's stronger and thus makes you do more damage and also lets you kite better while in combat. But the idea that you can jump in and out with shiro like a thief is absurd. The only way shiro is good at escaping is if you havent been attacking with shiro and now have the energy to engage and safely disengage.

I feel like that paragraph was a mess so I apologize.

But like anything else in the numbers game...... Damage trumps defenses, because damage can scale indefinitely, while defenses do not. Consider how Warrior is way more effective at this, without having to invest in defensive stats, because several of their defenses are based on Immunity rather then Reduction. If you were to take a Jalis Tank build into WvW, a Zerg bomb could still kill you through sheer damage.... and that kind of highlights some of the issues.

Thats why I hate ANETs "no trinity" beliefs, because instead of a trinity you get duality which lands the game into what you described of two dimentions, damage and defense. And ultimately damage needs to be better otherwise nothing could take down the defense. Had they made the trinity and a 3 aspect of combat, they could make them good at removing defenses or offenses thus you could have a game that contained both really strong defensive and really strong offensive builds. But defensive builds must suffer because things need to die and we have no real support classes (except heal druid) but not something like a disenchanter or enchanter like how necro and mesmer should be.

Another thing that doesn't get brought up often is how most classes have the ability to "rebound" after suffering major damage. Most of this comes in the form of a strong healing skill, or set of healing skills, that gets you back up to full health. Some classes can also reset their abilities mid-combat, offering another round of defenses or useful utilities. Because most abilities are based on effective cool down (IE time limited), the longer a fight goes on, the less reliable your defenses can overlap..... but that only applies if the incoming damage is outpacing your defenses. Flip it around with low incoming damage, and those defenses aren't being taxed. Eventually if they do drag your health down, you can simply reset the situation by using a heal to bring your health back up, forcing the attacker to start the process over again.

yeah rev sorta gets screwed on this unless you count the ever so powerful infuse light, which is becoming weaker and weaker in pvp related content where people are learning to stop attacking when the skill is used.

[narcx.3570]

@starlinvf.1358 said:But like anything else in the numbers game...... Damage trumps defenses, because damage can scale indefinitely, while defenses do not. Consider how Warrior is way more effective at this, without having to invest in defensive stats, because several of their defenses are based on Immunity rather then Reduction. If you were to take a Jalis Tank build into WvW, a Zerg bomb could still kill you through sheer damage.... and that kind of highlights some of the issues.

I think if anything, it's not that Revs (and lame Jalis) are too weak, it's that damage immunity skills to are way out of hand and need to be toned back in some way. Whether it's an across the board PvP only duration decrease to all immunity skills, or making traited immunities share a cooldown with their active counterparts (Signet of Stone, Endure Pain, Arcane Shield, Elixir S, etc...), or something, anything... Because they promote bad gameplay.

And then when you want to give a class a cool mechanic like Full Counter--which I think is actually fine for the most part--suddenly it becomes ridiculous when the class already had two built in damage immunities and access to solid i-frames on top of this new one. Like, I'm sorry, but it's just stupid that Sbk's can rock over 2.5k power and dive into WvW fights 1v10 trying to down squishes, just be fine for so long, and then trololol out when their movement skills come off cd.

The biggest problem is that Rev was for the most part balanced in a HoT environment, but then when PoF came, it took the core dynamic of most classes and pushed them to eleven... And then Rev's got Renegade, which did nothing to enhance what was good about them in PvP/WvW. And that's cool, not every elite spec needs to work in every game mode, but they forgot to buff the core (and herald) things that made Rev competitive to keep pace with the PoF power creep. Damage Immunity--push it to eleven! (Sbk) Extreme mobility and the ability to do damage while being untargetable--push it to eleven! (Mirage) Stealth spam and burst skills--push it to eleven (Deadeye) Etc... Like, Herald was fine'ish vs Zerker/Chrono/Daredevil, but then when anet took what was good about those classes and just doubled down on it, things got a little more rough.

It doesn't have to be major op buffs like making Phase Traversal's Unblockable Attack buff also penetrate Barrier and Damage Immunity (although that would be so sexy and make me so happy)... Just small things, like giving Gaze of Darkness charges for multiple reveals, increasing the static healing of Infused Light while maybe decreasing the Dmg-to-Heals conversion portion of it, reworking shield 5 to pulse cleanse and be able to move while blocking, making staff 2 and 4 function better, just small things like that to bring it back up to par with the PoF insane specs. OOORRRR, they could tone down the PoF specs, but really, that's not gonna happen.

[LucianDK.8615]

I just hope that the eventual third espec will be better made. not expecting much to come for renegades. just too many design issues.

[phokus.8934]

Energy and a cooldown on weapon skills is a double hit. Having energy use on utilities only would be perfect I think.

[otto.5684]

Regardless of what everyone thinks of the energy system, recreating the whole damn thing is way too much work and not worth it at all.

That does not mean it is working well. Far from it. It works well for power herald/shiro. That is about it. Mallyx energy gating mechanics fall on its head in PvP, and in PvE it is just one bottom spam. Jailis is useless in every game mode, outside of spamming hammers in raid. And not because the skills are bad, but because the energy system prevents it from being viable. Renegade... well... the issues are far deeper than energy. Ventari, kinda in the same boat.

Jailis, mallyx and ventari seriously need energy costs examined. Personal wish list, I think the heal should be removed from the legend swap system (with rebalancing obviously).

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Utility Skills should deplete energyWeapon Skills should generate energyHigher damaging weapon skills / energy generators should be throttled by cooldowns.

Revenants should Legend Swap because they need to change up utility, not because it's the best method of regenerating energy in combat.

That would make Ventari impossible to use ... for some reason they start with 50% of the energy, even if starts at 100% energy and weapons could give energy back, it would be truoublesome, Rev is about e-management and not spend energy then die cause u cant cast anythign due how slow energy weapons give :.

It would be very conflicting IMO.

I think quite the opposite.Weapon skills do not need to deal dmg to give energy IMO. Blasting a field with staff or cleansing conditions or generating orbs that grant energy on Pickup etc.I think it would actually bolster ventaris cappabbilities to heal because you could have more energy sustain and could longer stay in ventari.Every traitline that affects legend skills should affect the energy management if the legend in some way to improve the availabbility of skills.

[Aeolus.3615]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:Utility Skills should deplete energyWeapon Skills should generate energyHigher damaging weapon skills / energy generators should be throttled by cooldowns.

Revenants should Legend Swap because they need to change up utility, not because it's the best method of regenerating energy in combat.

That would make Ventari impossible to use ... for some reason they start with 50% of the energy, even if starts at 100% energy and weapons could give energy back, it would be truoublesome, Rev is about e-management and not spend energy then die cause u cant cast anythign due how slow energy weapons give :.

It would be very conflicting IMO.

I think quite the opposite.Weapon skills do not need to deal dmg to give energy IMO. Blasting a field with staff or cleansing conditions or generating orbs that grant energy on Pickup etc.I think it would actually bolster ventaris cappabbilities to heal because you could have more energy sustain and could longer stay in ventari.Every traitline that affects legend skills should affect the energy management if the legend in some way to improve the availabbility of skills.

The current system is to bring the old energy + skill CD management has a simulated management(they tried), IMO as a gw player sicne 2004 (and a obtuse one), i think it is a nice adition still i dont believe every Revenant legend should work that way, the problem with ventari is not the energy, but every other class does it better since game is all about boon stacking and stay stacked in pve due dull mobs mechanics even in raids are even the most basic ones, so big direct heals are not needed, on WvW and pvp they are only to catch a spike or big hit, wich with the current survibiality from some classes and gimmicks stacking, they can somewhat be more stable than rev ventari, plus the adition of need to predict where tablet will be needed in this aoe/cleave spamwars game can be a pain itself, so energy on ventari is not a issue, but having to manage positioning and no way or a very poor way to restabelish the energy would make what is easy to kill extremelly easy to kill.Making the rev energy work like thief and make it gain through atacks or some other action would not be like the Gw1 e-management, i think if players want that, new legends need to be built from scratch, still legends bsed on sword and dagger/dagger could probably be interesting to see what they can do with that.

" Every traitline that affects legend skills should affect the energy management if the legend in some way to improve the availabbility of skills."

Not really, unless theres a traitline for that but that will effect all legends , or tprobably when theres a legend with that has a theme.

Invocation Trait line, Charged Mists, maybe this needs to be changed from swap legend to some other action to give energy, but rather than some skill consuming a bit to much for what they do (note rev ventari condi removal....) atm rev isnt that bad overall, since most can be managed quite well.

I dont want rev to become a easy receive energy to spam build like some builds on thief are....

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:Utility Skills should deplete energyWeapon Skills should generate energyHigher damaging weapon skills / energy generators should be throttled by cooldowns.

Revenants should Legend Swap because they need to change up utility, not because it's the best method of regenerating energy in combat.

That would make Ventari impossible to use ... for some reason they start with 50% of the energy, even if starts at 100% energy and weapons could give energy back, it would be truoublesome, Rev is about e-management and not spend energy then die cause u cant cast anythign due how slow energy weapons give :.

It would be very conflicting IMO.

I think quite the opposite.Weapon skills do not need to deal dmg to give energy IMO. Blasting a field with staff or cleansing conditions or generating orbs that grant energy on Pickup etc.I think it would actually bolster ventaris cappabbilities to heal because you could have more energy sustain and could longer stay in ventari.Every traitline that affects legend skills should affect the energy management if the legend in some way to improve the availabbility of skills.

The current system is to bring the old energy + skill CD management has a simulated management(they tried), IMO as a gw player sicne 2004 (and a obtuse one), i think it is a nice adition still i dont believe every Revenant legend should work that way, the problem with ventari is not the energy, but every other class does it better since game is all about boon stacking and stay stacked in pve due dull mobs mechanics even in raids are even the most basic ones, so big direct heals are not needed, on WvW and pvp they are only to catch a spike or big hit, wich with the current survibiality from some classes and gimmicks stacking, they can somewhat be more stable than rev ventari, plus the adition of need to predict where tablet will be needed in this aoe/cleave spamwars game can be a pain itself, so energy on ventari is not a issue, but having to manage positioning and no way or a very poor way to restabelish the energy would make what is easy to kill extremelly easy to kill.Making the rev energy work like thief and make it gain through atacks or some other action would not be like the Gw1 e-management, i think if players want that, new legends need to be built from scratch, still legends bsed on sword and dagger/dagger could probably be interesting to see what they can do with that.

" Every traitline that affects legend skills should affect the energy management if the legend in some way to improve the availabbility of skills."

Not really, unless theres a traitline for that but that will effect all legends (See Invocation Trait line, Charged Mists.) , or tprobably when theres a legend with that has a theme.

The problem with ventari is that it really heals well with all heal traits which are not really necessary due to overheal.Ventari should get better heal scaling and more traits for boon support. Minors that are not only used for ventari but all builds.The positioning is a skill issue and most often it is predictable where the mob is going in group content.Wjat i ment with a legend specigic energy trait is for exanple the one in Salvation when you pickup fragments you will gain some energy back.Or the one in devastation, when you gain might you gain a small amount of energy etc.Ofc these are just ftom scratch examples but i hope you now understand what i ment by that.

[Aeolus.3615]

No, InsaneQR.7412 ventari needs to be usefull, by making mobs simulate condi cleanse and boon corrupting and heavy hits ;) where players need to gamble if they will get a class that heals decently like rev or not.Aka impove mobs and game mechanics.

The fragments are only not that usefull on very small scale only help in pve (just works cause mobs stand still), so that is why i dont like that way to receive energy.

That can be achieve by just changing Charged Mists. on invocation line, to every time caster receives a boon or some specific boon gains +1-3e or something.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@thebatman.6250 said:bruh. let me find out GS rev is in so I can finally run around with twilight. Make an edgelord happy pls

What if GS was added as a core Rev weapon

;^)

[Loki.4871]

I like the current system myself; it may be wishful thinking on my part but it feels like the revenant's attack skills (except hammer, that feels clunky as hell for me) are generally more powerful that other classes and/or have a short cooldown. I like being able to choose between keeping energy for defensive skills or gunning it for a burst of damage. Then again, I like the necromancer's shroud mechanic and ranger pets so what do I know. :p

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Loki.4871 said:I like the current system myself; it may be wishful thinking on my part but it feels like the revenant's attack skills (except hammer, that feels clunky as hell for me) are generally more powerful that other classes and/or have a short cooldown. I like being able to choose between keeping energy for defensive skills or gunning it for a burst of damage. Then again, I like the necromancer's shroud mechanic and ranger pets so what do I know. :p

You’re quite right about the revenant attack skills having short cooldowns. Overall we have the 2nd shortest weapon skill cooldowns in the game, beaten out only by thief