Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

Ayrilana.1396 · September 27, 2018

@Tyson.5160 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@rrusse.7058 said:What if we think about it like this? On the subreddit user acorico discusses the nature of how the sigil itself and the gold associated with this armor set is an issue because it makes up 82% of the gold cost to make the thing. So we are looking at approx. 335 to 350 gold depending on the market. Even if we say it is 400 gold that is not even close to being the most expensive item in the game.
After the sigil the most expensive items come down to the materials and amalgamated gemstones, but even those have a stable price range. Here we are talking about an item that is in low supply to begin with, acquired through chance or the TP, requires a large amount of and has now jumped 400x the previous value.
Where else have we seen randomness being the driving force for valuable items in this game? Legendary weapons before crafting precursors became an option. Getting a precursor as a drop is still joked about on a regular basis on this forum and the subreddit, with some players and myself included having logged thousands of hours with nothing to show for it, but that is the undeniable nature of randomness.
Your best bet was to throw things into the forge and hope for the best but even then many came out with nothing to show for it. Many burned themselves trying to throw everything into the forge and many quit after that, why though? Because it didn't matter if you threw in 4 or 4,000 weapons into the forge, you had nothing to show for it and no sign of progress. So the community demanded a way to take away the randomness but still require the gold sink and time to get the rare items people wanted.
From what I have seen the legendary crafting system is an overall success and the complaints that do exist with it lie with some points of it being a grind exclusively. The game and community are better with a system like this in place as oppose to one that favors randomness.
My main point is that it's not so much the gold price that is the big issue here. It's more of how it feels to acquire the items. Do that many of us want to leave such a huge quest and journey to chance? I don't.

I don’t see what the issue is if the majority of an item’s cost is from one component type. It’s like this for a ton other items whether craftable, forgeable, etc.

If the the 300+ gold needed for sigils was instead needed for mithril, players wouldn’t be complaining that one component makes up like 85% of an item’s cost. The issue is solely on the cost of a single sigil.

They wouldn’t complain due to the ludicrous amounts of ways you can acquire mithril in this game.

Exactly which was my point. The main issue is the price of a single sigil and not because they comprise the majority of the set’s cost or because of how they’re acquired.

Pirindolo.9427 · September 27, 2018

If they wanted a long term goal to force players to keep playing in order to get the armor set, they could have used the same method they introduced with the silly "Swim-Speed-infussions". You want a +30 inf? Well, be ready to spend a few hundreds of thousands of gold and/or several thousands of years playing to get all the mats.No discrimination there.

Cyninja.2954 · September 27, 2018

@Urud.4925 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:Oh wait, that too was not what you were saying? So I guess you are complaining about a nearly free game, which you spend almost no money on to support the developers while at the same time objecting to them using a small amount of OPTIONAL achievements to generate revenue so they can pay their employees.No one is complaining (afaik) for the 5g that we had to pay to the NPC for this collection or for the 250g for the griffon. These are gold that all the players must pay, if they want to unlock the content.

I remember the griffon controversy a bit different. There certainly was enough people to complain about the 250 gold. Granted they were less since there was option to acquire it cheaper, but the 250 gold did not sit well and people complained.

Considering the stored supply is used up by now most gold goes to people who farm or find the Sigil post patch. So at what point does it become inconvenient to have to trade with other players? What about other Sigils that are valued at over 5-10 gold? Is it the quantity that is required?

Believe it or not, this kind of collection encourages that people buy gems and convert those to gold if they are unwilling to wait or spend farmed in game gold. That's by the way the thing that Bloodstealer.5978 and some others are complaining about.

So no, Arenanet do not get gold out of this, but they design the game with encouraging players to use the gem exchange which is a direct result of their monetization model.

@Urud.4925 said:The 12g per sigil are money that goes to other players. ANet gains a very small percentage on trading, don't tell me that they pay their bills and payslip with this. They would remove more gold from the game if we had to pay a kitten NPC, not by moving our gold into other players' pocket. Moreover, you link an achievement to the availability of such item on the TP. Not a smart idea imho. I totally agree with @Turkeyspit.3965

No, Arenanet get's almost nothing out of this trade. The game economy does, it has 15% of the trade volume worth in gold removed.

Arenanet profits from people who buy gems. Notice how the gem -> gold exchange rate dropped from 29 to 25 gold on patch day? That's people converting gems to gold. Since gems can only be introduced to the game via real money purchases (the tiny amount granted from achievements not counting) that was a big payday for Arenanet since either people bought gems and converted them or they used up stored supply purchased/converted from the past.

Urud.4925 · September 27, 2018

@Cyninja.2954 said:Arenanet profits from people who buy gems. Notice how the gem -> gold exchange rate dropped from 29 to 25 gold on patch day? That's people converting gems to gold. Since gems can only be introduced to the game via real money purchases (the tiny amount granted from achievements not counting) that was a big payday for Arenanet since either people bought gems and converted them or they used up stored supply purchased/converted from the past.Maybe you didn't consider one thing: if I have to buy gems to pay another player, the latter won't need to buy gems to buy a mining tool or whatever he wants. You transfer the need of gold from a player to another one. If ALL the players had to pay an NPC ( = ANet), ALL of us would lose exactly the same buying-power (= gems)

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 27, 2018

@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@rrusse.7058 said:What if we think about it like this? On the subreddit user acorico discusses the nature of how the sigil itself and the gold associated with this armor set is an issue because it makes up 82% of the gold cost to make the thing. So we are looking at approx. 335 to 350 gold depending on the market. Even if we say it is 400 gold that is not even close to being the most expensive item in the game.
After the sigil the most expensive items come down to the materials and amalgamated gemstones, but even those have a stable price range. Here we are talking about an item that is in low supply to begin with, acquired through chance or the TP, requires a large amount of and has now jumped 400x the previous value.
Where else have we seen randomness being the driving force for valuable items in this game? Legendary weapons before crafting precursors became an option. Getting a precursor as a drop is still joked about on a regular basis on this forum and the subreddit, with some players and myself included having logged thousands of hours with nothing to show for it, but that is the undeniable nature of randomness.
Your best bet was to throw things into the forge and hope for the best but even then many came out with nothing to show for it. Many burned themselves trying to throw everything into the forge and many quit after that, why though? Because it didn't matter if you threw in 4 or 4,000 weapons into the forge, you had nothing to show for it and no sign of progress. So the community demanded a way to take away the randomness but still require the gold sink and time to get the rare items people wanted.
From what I have seen the legendary crafting system is an overall success and the complaints that do exist with it lie with some points of it being a grind exclusively. The game and community are better with a system like this in place as oppose to one that favors randomness.
My main point is that it's not so much the gold price that is the big issue here. It's more of how it feels to acquire the items. Do that many of us want to leave such a huge quest and journey to chance? I don't.

I don’t see what the issue is if the majority of an item’s cost is from one component type. It’s like this for a ton other items whether craftable, forgeable, etc.

If the the 300+ gold needed for sigils was instead needed for mithril, players wouldn’t be complaining that one component makes up like 85% of an item’s cost. The issue is solely on the cost of a single sigil.

Now I am really beginning to become suspicious as to why your trying your hardest to defend this and smokescreen the issues.. this is utter rubbish.The whole crux around this lunacy is the ability to keep the supply balanced nearer to demand, if it was then price flipping and grossly inflated spiking would not be a thing her. Yes when a new shiny enters the game and utilises a resource, any resource the demand will increase we all know that.. but if there are ways to fuel the market to allow it to rebalance itself even it that means a price rise of sorts, that is just normal practice.This is not normal practice.. how can it be when there is no supply line of any consequence to keep the market anywhere close to balanced.To use Mithril as a argument for your case is beyond laughable and has absolutely no consequential correlation to the issues that this collection is causing.

Ayrilana.1396 · September 27, 2018

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@rrusse.7058 said:What if we think about it like this? On the subreddit user acorico discusses the nature of how the sigil itself and the gold associated with this armor set is an issue because it makes up 82% of the gold cost to make the thing. So we are looking at approx. 335 to 350 gold depending on the market. Even if we say it is 400 gold that is not even close to being the most expensive item in the game.
After the sigil the most expensive items come down to the materials and amalgamated gemstones, but even those have a stable price range. Here we are talking about an item that is in low supply to begin with, acquired through chance or the TP, requires a large amount of and has now jumped 400x the previous value.
Where else have we seen randomness being the driving force for valuable items in this game? Legendary weapons before crafting precursors became an option. Getting a precursor as a drop is still joked about on a regular basis on this forum and the subreddit, with some players and myself included having logged thousands of hours with nothing to show for it, but that is the undeniable nature of randomness.
Your best bet was to throw things into the forge and hope for the best but even then many came out with nothing to show for it. Many burned themselves trying to throw everything into the forge and many quit after that, why though? Because it didn't matter if you threw in 4 or 4,000 weapons into the forge, you had nothing to show for it and no sign of progress. So the community demanded a way to take away the randomness but still require the gold sink and time to get the rare items people wanted.
From what I have seen the legendary crafting system is an overall success and the complaints that do exist with it lie with some points of it being a grind exclusively. The game and community are better with a system like this in place as oppose to one that favors randomness.
My main point is that it's not so much the gold price that is the big issue here. It's more of how it feels to acquire the items. Do that many of us want to leave such a huge quest and journey to chance? I don't.

I don’t see what the issue is if the majority of an item’s cost is from one component type. It’s like this for a ton other items whether craftable, forgeable, etc.

If the the 300+ gold needed for sigils was instead needed for mithril, players wouldn’t be complaining that one component makes up like 85% of an item’s cost. The issue is solely on the cost of a single sigil.

Now I am really beginning to become suspicious as to why your trying your hardest to defend this and smokescreen the issues.. this is utter rubbish.The whole crux around this lunacy is the ability to keep the supply balanced nearer to demand, if it was then price flipping and grossly inflated spiking would not be a thing her. Yes when a new shiny enters the game and utilises a resource, any resource the demand will increase we all know that.. but if there are ways to fuel the market to allow it to rebalance itself even it that means a price rise of sorts, that is just normal practice.This is not normal practice.. how can it be when there is no supply line of any consequence to keep the market anywhere close to balanced.To use Mithril as a argument for your case is beyond laughable and has absolutely no consequential correlation to the issues that this collection is causing.

Why does supply have to equal total demand?

If you had read my mithril argument, you would have seen what I was getting at. It also helps to read the post that I was quoting to get the context.

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 27, 2018

@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@rrusse.7058 said:What if we think about it like this? On the subreddit user acorico discusses the nature of how the sigil itself and the gold associated with this armor set is an issue because it makes up 82% of the gold cost to make the thing. So we are looking at approx. 335 to 350 gold depending on the market. Even if we say it is 400 gold that is not even close to being the most expensive item in the game.
After the sigil the most expensive items come down to the materials and amalgamated gemstones, but even those have a stable price range. Here we are talking about an item that is in low supply to begin with, acquired through chance or the TP, requires a large amount of and has now jumped 400x the previous value.
Where else have we seen randomness being the driving force for valuable items in this game? Legendary weapons before crafting precursors became an option. Getting a precursor as a drop is still joked about on a regular basis on this forum and the subreddit, with some players and myself included having logged thousands of hours with nothing to show for it, but that is the undeniable nature of randomness.
Your best bet was to throw things into the forge and hope for the best but even then many came out with nothing to show for it. Many burned themselves trying to throw everything into the forge and many quit after that, why though? Because it didn't matter if you threw in 4 or 4,000 weapons into the forge, you had nothing to show for it and no sign of progress. So the community demanded a way to take away the randomness but still require the gold sink and time to get the rare items people wanted.
From what I have seen the legendary crafting system is an overall success and the complaints that do exist with it lie with some points of it being a grind exclusively. The game and community are better with a system like this in place as oppose to one that favors randomness.
My main point is that it's not so much the gold price that is the big issue here. It's more of how it feels to acquire the items. Do that many of us want to leave such a huge quest and journey to chance? I don't.

I don’t see what the issue is if the majority of an item’s cost is from one component type. It’s like this for a ton other items whether craftable, forgeable, etc.

If the the 300+ gold needed for sigils was instead needed for mithril, players wouldn’t be complaining that one component makes up like 85% of an item’s cost. The issue is solely on the cost of a single sigil.

Now I am really beginning to become suspicious as to why your trying your hardest to defend this and smokescreen the issues.. this is utter rubbish.The whole crux around this lunacy is the ability to keep the supply balanced nearer to demand, if it was then price flipping and grossly inflated spiking would not be a thing her. Yes when a new shiny enters the game and utilises a resource, any resource the demand will increase we all know that.. but if there are ways to fuel the market to allow it to rebalance itself even it that means a price rise of sorts, that is just normal practice.This is not normal practice.. how can it be when there is no supply line of any consequence to keep the market anywhere close to balanced.To use Mithril as a argument for your case is beyond laughable and has absolutely no consequential correlation to the issues that this collection is causing.

Why does supply have to equal total demand?

If you had read my mithril argument, you would have seen what I was getting at.

And I still laugh at your mithril argument.. the cost of mithril by virtue of its ease of supply will always be able to rebalance the demand for it via the TP and therefore the grossly deficient supply vs demand would not be tin anyway comparable, but yes it might see mithril jump a little in price as would be normal practice when there is a new requirement in demand coming from the introduction of something new, but not in the grossly inflated amounts we have seen with the sigil.. there is simply no correlation you can put to compare the two and the effect they have on the market.If the need for mithril was a million ingots there would still be less demand because there is enough ways to fuel not just the individual need but the market as well for those lazy enough to not care.. That said, its not just about a price its about how the price is arrived at and the time and effort and likely real money costs now required by players not lucky enough to of purchased 25 sigils from the tp at the same price as others did before it got grossly flipped.. and please don't try convincing me or others that didn't happen its there for all to see by the immediate drop in supplies and the reintroduction of 3k ish at a the grossly inflated prices. If they weren't flipped by flippers they were cancelled off and relisted by others due to the same cause and effect borne by this collection, but they would of had to off been quicker than any TP bot could trigger the flipper to purchase.

If mithril is the thing you can come up as a way to try and smokescreen this issue, then you may want to take a few to rethink it.

Ayrilana.1396 · September 27, 2018

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@rrusse.7058 said:What if we think about it like this? On the subreddit user acorico discusses the nature of how the sigil itself and the gold associated with this armor set is an issue because it makes up 82% of the gold cost to make the thing. So we are looking at approx. 335 to 350 gold depending on the market. Even if we say it is 400 gold that is not even close to being the most expensive item in the game.
After the sigil the most expensive items come down to the materials and amalgamated gemstones, but even those have a stable price range. Here we are talking about an item that is in low supply to begin with, acquired through chance or the TP, requires a large amount of and has now jumped 400x the previous value.
Where else have we seen randomness being the driving force for valuable items in this game? Legendary weapons before crafting precursors became an option. Getting a precursor as a drop is still joked about on a regular basis on this forum and the subreddit, with some players and myself included having logged thousands of hours with nothing to show for it, but that is the undeniable nature of randomness.
Your best bet was to throw things into the forge and hope for the best but even then many came out with nothing to show for it. Many burned themselves trying to throw everything into the forge and many quit after that, why though? Because it didn't matter if you threw in 4 or 4,000 weapons into the forge, you had nothing to show for it and no sign of progress. So the community demanded a way to take away the randomness but still require the gold sink and time to get the rare items people wanted.
From what I have seen the legendary crafting system is an overall success and the complaints that do exist with it lie with some points of it being a grind exclusively. The game and community are better with a system like this in place as oppose to one that favors randomness.
My main point is that it's not so much the gold price that is the big issue here. It's more of how it feels to acquire the items. Do that many of us want to leave such a huge quest and journey to chance? I don't.

I don’t see what the issue is if the majority of an item’s cost is from one component type. It’s like this for a ton other items whether craftable, forgeable, etc.

If the the 300+ gold needed for sigils was instead needed for mithril, players wouldn’t be complaining that one component makes up like 85% of an item’s cost. The issue is solely on the cost of a single sigil.

Now I am really beginning to become suspicious as to why your trying your hardest to defend this and smokescreen the issues.. this is utter rubbish.The whole crux around this lunacy is the ability to keep the supply balanced nearer to demand, if it was then price flipping and grossly inflated spiking would not be a thing her. Yes when a new shiny enters the game and utilises a resource, any resource the demand will increase we all know that.. but if there are ways to fuel the market to allow it to rebalance itself even it that means a price rise of sorts, that is just normal practice.This is not normal practice.. how can it be when there is no supply line of any consequence to keep the market anywhere close to balanced.To use Mithril as a argument for your case is beyond laughable and has absolutely no consequential correlation to the issues that this collection is causing.

Why does supply have to equal total demand?

If you had read my mithril argument, you would have seen what I was getting at.

And I still laugh at your mithril argument.. the cost of mithril by virtue of its ease of supply will always that the demand for it via the TP would not be there in the same capacity the sigil has yes mithril might see a minor temporary spike, that would be normal for any demand coming from the introduction of something new, but not in the grossly inflated amounts we have seen with the sigil.. there is simply no correlation you can put to compare the two and the effect they have on the market.If the need for mithril was a million ingots there would still be less demand because there is enough ways to fuel not just the individual need but the market as well for those lazy enough to not care.. That said, its not just about a price its about how the price is arrived at and the time and effort and likely real money costs now required by players not lucky enough to of purchased 25 sigils from the tp at the same price as others did before it got grossly flipped.. and please don't try convincing me or others that didn't happen its there for all to see by the immediate drop in supplies and the reintroduction of 3k ish at a the grossly inflated prices. If they weren't flipped by flippers they were cancelled off and relisted by others due to the same cause and effect borne by this collection, but they would of had to off been quicker than any TP bot could trigger the flipper to purchase.

If mithril is the thing you can come up as a way to try and smokescreen this issue, then you may want to take a few to rethink it.

Again. You’re completely missing why I was using the mithril argument. It was specifically for the argument about the % of an item’s cost (in this case the skin set) by a single component. It had absolutely nothing to do with anything outside of that.

I’ve asked at least twice now to actually read my post and who I quoted to get the context. Please don’t twist my argument into something it never was.

Tyson.5160 · September 27, 2018

I just don’t understand why everyone is arguing in the first place. Unless there is something to be gained.

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 27, 2018

@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@rrusse.7058 said:What if we think about it like this? On the subreddit user acorico discusses the nature of how the sigil itself and the gold associated with this armor set is an issue because it makes up 82% of the gold cost to make the thing. So we are looking at approx. 335 to 350 gold depending on the market. Even if we say it is 400 gold that is not even close to being the most expensive item in the game.
After the sigil the most expensive items come down to the materials and amalgamated gemstones, but even those have a stable price range. Here we are talking about an item that is in low supply to begin with, acquired through chance or the TP, requires a large amount of and has now jumped 400x the previous value.
Where else have we seen randomness being the driving force for valuable items in this game? Legendary weapons before crafting precursors became an option. Getting a precursor as a drop is still joked about on a regular basis on this forum and the subreddit, with some players and myself included having logged thousands of hours with nothing to show for it, but that is the undeniable nature of randomness.
Your best bet was to throw things into the forge and hope for the best but even then many came out with nothing to show for it. Many burned themselves trying to throw everything into the forge and many quit after that, why though? Because it didn't matter if you threw in 4 or 4,000 weapons into the forge, you had nothing to show for it and no sign of progress. So the community demanded a way to take away the randomness but still require the gold sink and time to get the rare items people wanted.
From what I have seen the legendary crafting system is an overall success and the complaints that do exist with it lie with some points of it being a grind exclusively. The game and community are better with a system like this in place as oppose to one that favors randomness.
My main point is that it's not so much the gold price that is the big issue here. It's more of how it feels to acquire the items. Do that many of us want to leave such a huge quest and journey to chance? I don't.

I don’t see what the issue is if the majority of an item’s cost is from one component type. It’s like this for a ton other items whether craftable, forgeable, etc.

If the the 300+ gold needed for sigils was instead needed for mithril, players wouldn’t be complaining that one component makes up like 85% of an item’s cost. The issue is solely on the cost of a single sigil.

Now I am really beginning to become suspicious as to why your trying your hardest to defend this and smokescreen the issues.. this is utter rubbish.The whole crux around this lunacy is the ability to keep the supply balanced nearer to demand, if it was then price flipping and grossly inflated spiking would not be a thing her. Yes when a new shiny enters the game and utilises a resource, any resource the demand will increase we all know that.. but if there are ways to fuel the market to allow it to rebalance itself even it that means a price rise of sorts, that is just normal practice.This is not normal practice.. how can it be when there is no supply line of any consequence to keep the market anywhere close to balanced.To use Mithril as a argument for your case is beyond laughable and has absolutely no consequential correlation to the issues that this collection is causing.

Why does supply have to equal total demand?

If you had read my mithril argument, you would have seen what I was getting at.

And I still laugh at your mithril argument.. the cost of mithril by virtue of its ease of supply will always that the demand for it via the TP would not be there in the same capacity the sigil has yes mithril might see a minor temporary spike, that would be normal for any demand coming from the introduction of something new, but not in the grossly inflated amounts we have seen with the sigil.. there is simply no correlation you can put to compare the two and the effect they have on the market.If the need for mithril was a million ingots there would still be less demand because there is enough ways to fuel not just the individual need but the market as well for those lazy enough to not care.. That said, its not just about a price its about how the price is arrived at and the time and effort and likely real money costs now required by players not lucky enough to of purchased 25 sigils from the tp at the same price as others did before it got grossly flipped.. and please don't try convincing me or others that didn't happen its there for all to see by the immediate drop in supplies and the reintroduction of 3k ish at a the grossly inflated prices. If they weren't flipped by flippers they were cancelled off and relisted by others due to the same cause and effect borne by this collection, but they would of had to off been quicker than any TP bot could trigger the flipper to purchase.

If mithril is the thing you can come up as a way to try and smokescreen this issue, then you may want to take a few to rethink it.

Again. You’re completely missing why I was using the mithril argument. It was specifically for the argument about the % of an item’s cost (in this case the skin set) by a single component. It had absolutely nothing to do with anything outside of that.

No I did not miss your point, your either purposely trying to deflect or your not seeing how bad an example you are using.

It does not matter if mithril was 100% of the collection requirement.. the supply capacity of mithril is already in place so there would be far less need to use the TP to buy 300gold worth of mithril.. that is the major glaringly obvious flaw in your whole argument.The sigil cannot be supplied in anywhere near the capacity of mithril and is reliant on spending large sums of real money to buy tokens or rely heavily on luck or more to the point other players luck as well... do some basic maths.. take a very conservative stab at how many players are active in game and interested in this new, shiny collection... I used 83k ( I seriously hope that number is low), heck even use 50k, take how many sigils are needed each and look at how many we had available at release, look at the history since and what's left now.. I dare you to take a stab at what the daily supply is and worse what it will be like once players have used their tomes and tokens and now rely soley on the toilet to feed the TP - - IT doesn't bode well... cost is one thing, but actually being able to purchase sufficient sigils at all will be more of an issue if there is no real injection of supply, otherwise there are going to be a hell of a lot of players stuck waiting to buy for some time.Now compare that to your mithril argument... 85% of the collection is mithril and its going to cost 300gold to buy it all.. don't know about you but I can collect at least 2 stashes of mithil without doing anything other than playing the game for a few hours each day, without farming istan or sw or anywhewre.. just running content like any other day.. so why would I buy 300gold of mithril when I can easily get most of it myself in a timescale largely controlled by me not the market.Your whole argument falls flat right there.. because most other materials in game, mithril especially has its own supply routes to market and does not rely on luck or rerolling to lvl 64

NOTE - I don't think many flippers would identify mithril as a good source of income, even if demand was to suddenly spike 10 fold., I could be wrong but when there is a viable source of personal supply I think even a flipper would tend to look elsewhere for a better cashgrab

Cyninja.2954 · September 27, 2018

@Urud.4925 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:Arenanet profits from people who buy gems. Notice how the gem -> gold exchange rate dropped from 29 to 25 gold on patch day? That's people converting gems to gold. Since gems can only be introduced to the game via real money purchases (the tiny amount granted from achievements not counting) that was a big payday for Arenanet since either people bought gems and converted them or they used up stored supply purchased/converted from the past.Maybe you didn't consider one thing: if I have to buy gems to pay another player, the latter won't need to buy gems to buy a mining tool or whatever he wants. You
transfer
the need of gold from a player to another one. If ALL the players had to pay an NPC ( = ANet), ALL of us would lose exactly the same buying-power (= gems)

Incorrect, you are omitting taxes in this situation. Let me do the math for you:

You buy gems with real money. 100% gems owned. Let's call you player A.
You convert gems into gold. That's a 15% tax, so you are left with 85% of your original gems in gold now.
You now buy an item from the TP. That is another 15% gold tax removed from the game, payed by the seller. The seller thus receives 85% on his items value, while you payed 100%. Aka, 85x.85=72.25. Player selling the item (let's call him player B ) is now left with 72.25% of the original gems (still as gold value).
Player B now decides to convert his gold into gems. He uses his 72.25% of the original gems (which are still in form of gold) and converts to gems. That is another 15% tax. 72.25x 0.85 = 61.4125. Player B is now left with around 60% of the gems you bought.

This is even simpler if you omit the trading post and the reason why flipping gems is near impossible at stable prices. Back to back conversion of gems to gold to gems ends up with draining close to 28% of the original value in total. (100x0.85 = 85x0.85 = 72.25%)

There is nothing better for Arenanet then people buying gems to convert to gold so that they can buy things off the trading post.

So in theory you are correct, but the devil is as they say in the details. Transferring gems to another player comes at a cost, a significant one if I might add and Arenanet benefits directly from this transaction.

Aren't taxes amazing?

Ayrilana.1396 · September 27, 2018

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@rrusse.7058 said:What if we think about it like this? On the subreddit user acorico discusses the nature of how the sigil itself and the gold associated with this armor set is an issue because it makes up 82% of the gold cost to make the thing. So we are looking at approx. 335 to 350 gold depending on the market. Even if we say it is 400 gold that is not even close to being the most expensive item in the game.
After the sigil the most expensive items come down to the materials and amalgamated gemstones, but even those have a stable price range. Here we are talking about an item that is in low supply to begin with, acquired through chance or the TP, requires a large amount of and has now jumped 400x the previous value.
Where else have we seen randomness being the driving force for valuable items in this game? Legendary weapons before crafting precursors became an option. Getting a precursor as a drop is still joked about on a regular basis on this forum and the subreddit, with some players and myself included having logged thousands of hours with nothing to show for it, but that is the undeniable nature of randomness.
Your best bet was to throw things into the forge and hope for the best but even then many came out with nothing to show for it. Many burned themselves trying to throw everything into the forge and many quit after that, why though? Because it didn't matter if you threw in 4 or 4,000 weapons into the forge, you had nothing to show for it and no sign of progress. So the community demanded a way to take away the randomness but still require the gold sink and time to get the rare items people wanted.
From what I have seen the legendary crafting system is an overall success and the complaints that do exist with it lie with some points of it being a grind exclusively. The game and community are better with a system like this in place as oppose to one that favors randomness.
My main point is that it's not so much the gold price that is the big issue here. It's more of how it feels to acquire the items. Do that many of us want to leave such a huge quest and journey to chance? I don't.

I don’t see what the issue is if the majority of an item’s cost is from one component type. It’s like this for a ton other items whether craftable, forgeable, etc.

If the the 300+ gold needed for sigils was instead needed for mithril, players wouldn’t be complaining that one component makes up like 85% of an item’s cost. The issue is solely on the cost of a single sigil.

Now I am really beginning to become suspicious as to why your trying your hardest to defend this and smokescreen the issues.. this is utter rubbish.The whole crux around this lunacy is the ability to keep the supply balanced nearer to demand, if it was then price flipping and grossly inflated spiking would not be a thing her. Yes when a new shiny enters the game and utilises a resource, any resource the demand will increase we all know that.. but if there are ways to fuel the market to allow it to rebalance itself even it that means a price rise of sorts, that is just normal practice.This is not normal practice.. how can it be when there is no supply line of any consequence to keep the market anywhere close to balanced.To use Mithril as a argument for your case is beyond laughable and has absolutely no consequential correlation to the issues that this collection is causing.

Why does supply have to equal total demand?

If you had read my mithril argument, you would have seen what I was getting at.

And I still laugh at your mithril argument.. the cost of mithril by virtue of its ease of supply will always that the demand for it via the TP would not be there in the same capacity the sigil has yes mithril might see a minor temporary spike, that would be normal for any demand coming from the introduction of something new, but not in the grossly inflated amounts we have seen with the sigil.. there is simply no correlation you can put to compare the two and the effect they have on the market.If the need for mithril was a million ingots there would still be less demand because there is enough ways to fuel not just the individual need but the market as well for those lazy enough to not care.. That said, its not just about a price its about how the price is arrived at and the time and effort and likely real money costs now required by players not lucky enough to of purchased 25 sigils from the tp at the same price as others did before it got grossly flipped.. and please don't try convincing me or others that didn't happen its there for all to see by the immediate drop in supplies and the reintroduction of 3k ish at a the grossly inflated prices. If they weren't flipped by flippers they were cancelled off and relisted by others due to the same cause and effect borne by this collection, but they would of had to off been quicker than any TP bot could trigger the flipper to purchase.

If mithril is the thing you can come up as a way to try and smokescreen this issue, then you may want to take a few to rethink it.

Again. You’re completely missing why I was using the mithril argument. It was specifically for the argument about the % of an item’s cost (in this case the skin set) by a single component. It had absolutely nothing to do with anything outside of that.

No I did not miss your point, your either purposely trying to deflect or your not seeing how bad an example you are using.

It does not matter if mithril was 100% of the collection requirement.. the supply capacity of mithril is already in place so there would be far less need to use the TP to buy 300gold worth of mithril.. that is the major glaringly obvious flaw in your whole argument.The sigil cannot be supplied in anywhere near the capacity of mithril and is reliant on spending large sums of real money to buy tokens or rely heavily on luck or more to the point other players luck as well... do some basic maths.. take a very conservative stab at how many players are active in game and interested in this new, shiny collection... I used 83k ( I seriously hope that number is low), heck even use 50k, take how many sigils are needed each and look at how many we had available at release, look at the history since and what's left now.. I dare you to take a stab at what the daily supply is and worse what it will be like once players have used their tomes and tokens and now rely soley on the toilet to feed the TP - - IT doesn't bode well... cost is one thing, but actually being able to purchase sufficient sigils at all will be more of an issue if there is no real injection of supply, otherwise there are going to be a hell of a lot of players stuck waiting to buy for some time.Now compare that to your mithril argument... 85% of the collection is mithril and its going to cost 300gold to buy it all.. don't know about you but I can collect at least 2 stashes of mithil without doing anything other than playing the game for a few hours each day, without farming istan or sw or anywhewre.. just running content like any other day.. so why would I buy 300gold of mithril when I can easily get most of it myself in a timescale largely controlled by me not the market.Your whole argument falls flat right there.. because most other materials in game, mithril especially has its own supply routes to market and does not rely on luck or rerolling to lvl 64

NOTE - I don't think many flippers would identify mithril as a good source of income, even if demand was to suddenly spike 10 fold., I could be wrong but when there is a viable source of personal supply I think even a flipper would tend to look elsewhere for a better cashgrab

You’re still twisting my argument into something it was not. it was solely about the percentage. It had nothing to do with the supply of mithril.

Anyway, I’m not going to address you further on this particular thing if you continue to not understand what I was arguing and continue to twist what I said.

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 27, 2018

@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@rrusse.7058 said:What if we think about it like this? On the subreddit user acorico discusses the nature of how the sigil itself and the gold associated with this armor set is an issue because it makes up 82% of the gold cost to make the thing. So we are looking at approx. 335 to 350 gold depending on the market. Even if we say it is 400 gold that is not even close to being the most expensive item in the game.
After the sigil the most expensive items come down to the materials and amalgamated gemstones, but even those have a stable price range. Here we are talking about an item that is in low supply to begin with, acquired through chance or the TP, requires a large amount of and has now jumped 400x the previous value.
Where else have we seen randomness being the driving force for valuable items in this game? Legendary weapons before crafting precursors became an option. Getting a precursor as a drop is still joked about on a regular basis on this forum and the subreddit, with some players and myself included having logged thousands of hours with nothing to show for it, but that is the undeniable nature of randomness.
Your best bet was to throw things into the forge and hope for the best but even then many came out with nothing to show for it. Many burned themselves trying to throw everything into the forge and many quit after that, why though? Because it didn't matter if you threw in 4 or 4,000 weapons into the forge, you had nothing to show for it and no sign of progress. So the community demanded a way to take away the randomness but still require the gold sink and time to get the rare items people wanted.
From what I have seen the legendary crafting system is an overall success and the complaints that do exist with it lie with some points of it being a grind exclusively. The game and community are better with a system like this in place as oppose to one that favors randomness.
My main point is that it's not so much the gold price that is the big issue here. It's more of how it feels to acquire the items. Do that many of us want to leave such a huge quest and journey to chance? I don't.

I don’t see what the issue is if the majority of an item’s cost is from one component type. It’s like this for a ton other items whether craftable, forgeable, etc.

If the the 300+ gold needed for sigils was instead needed for mithril, players wouldn’t be complaining that one component makes up like 85% of an item’s cost. The issue is solely on the cost of a single sigil.

Now I am really beginning to become suspicious as to why your trying your hardest to defend this and smokescreen the issues.. this is utter rubbish.The whole crux around this lunacy is the ability to keep the supply balanced nearer to demand, if it was then price flipping and grossly inflated spiking would not be a thing her. Yes when a new shiny enters the game and utilises a resource, any resource the demand will increase we all know that.. but if there are ways to fuel the market to allow it to rebalance itself even it that means a price rise of sorts, that is just normal practice.This is not normal practice.. how can it be when there is no supply line of any consequence to keep the market anywhere close to balanced.To use Mithril as a argument for your case is beyond laughable and has absolutely no consequential correlation to the issues that this collection is causing.

Why does supply have to equal total demand?

If you had read my mithril argument, you would have seen what I was getting at.

And I still laugh at your mithril argument.. the cost of mithril by virtue of its ease of supply will always that the demand for it via the TP would not be there in the same capacity the sigil has yes mithril might see a minor temporary spike, that would be normal for any demand coming from the introduction of something new, but not in the grossly inflated amounts we have seen with the sigil.. there is simply no correlation you can put to compare the two and the effect they have on the market.If the need for mithril was a million ingots there would still be less demand because there is enough ways to fuel not just the individual need but the market as well for those lazy enough to not care.. That said, its not just about a price its about how the price is arrived at and the time and effort and likely real money costs now required by players not lucky enough to of purchased 25 sigils from the tp at the same price as others did before it got grossly flipped.. and please don't try convincing me or others that didn't happen its there for all to see by the immediate drop in supplies and the reintroduction of 3k ish at a the grossly inflated prices. If they weren't flipped by flippers they were cancelled off and relisted by others due to the same cause and effect borne by this collection, but they would of had to off been quicker than any TP bot could trigger the flipper to purchase.

If mithril is the thing you can come up as a way to try and smokescreen this issue, then you may want to take a few to rethink it.

Again. You’re completely missing why I was using the mithril argument. It was specifically for the argument about the % of an item’s cost (in this case the skin set) by a single component. It had absolutely nothing to do with anything outside of that.

No I did not miss your point, your either purposely trying to deflect or your not seeing how bad an example you are using.

It does not matter if mithril was 100% of the collection requirement.. the supply capacity of mithril is already in place so there would be far less need to use the TP to buy 300gold worth of mithril.. that is the major glaringly obvious flaw in your whole argument.The sigil cannot be supplied in anywhere near the capacity of mithril and is reliant on spending large sums of real money to buy tokens or rely heavily on luck or more to the point other players luck as well... do some basic maths.. take a very conservative stab at how many players are active in game and interested in this new, shiny collection... I used 83k ( I seriously hope that number is low), heck even use 50k, take how many sigils are needed each and look at how many we had available at release, look at the history since and what's left now.. I dare you to take a stab at what the daily supply is and worse what it will be like once players have used their tomes and tokens and now rely soley on the toilet to feed the TP - - IT doesn't bode well... cost is one thing, but actually being able to purchase sufficient sigils at all will be more of an issue if there is no real injection of supply, otherwise there are going to be a hell of a lot of players stuck waiting to buy for some time.Now compare that to your mithril argument... 85% of the collection is mithril and its going to cost 300gold to buy it all.. don't know about you but I can collect at least 2 stashes of mithil without doing anything other than playing the game for a few hours each day, without farming istan or sw or anywhewre.. just running content like any other day.. so why would I buy 300gold of mithril when I can easily get most of it myself in a timescale largely controlled by me not the market.Your whole argument falls flat right there.. because most other materials in game, mithril especially has its own supply routes to market and does not rely on luck or rerolling to lvl 64

NOTE - I don't think many flippers would identify mithril as a good source of income, even if demand was to suddenly spike 10 fold., I could be wrong but when there is a viable source of personal supply I think even a flipper would tend to look elsewhere for a better cashgrab

You’re

still

twisting my argument into something it was not.

it was solely about the percentage

. It had nothing to do with the supply of mithril.

Anyway, I’m not going to address you further on this particular thing if you continue to not understand what I was arguing and continue to twist what I said.

I am not arguing with you, I am debating with you and I am not in anyway twsting what your saying, that is not the purpose of this discussionI have view and you have a view.. we have differing views.. I am merlely trying to counter your use of mithril your trying to defend it.Persoanlly I think your missing the point, you think I am

But my final counter is to say - of course it has everything to do with supply of mithril.. seriously I dont see how you can ignore that fact.

Let me try it a simpler way for you..I will take a stab at how many mithril nodes and rich nodes there are (bare with me here, I don't know the numbers, its merely a guess)..Let me say 30 basic nodes and 10 rich nodes in the whole game.. yes its likely more I know.Basic nodes refresh over time throughout the day, rich nodes don't.So per toon without salvaging or rewards or buying from the TP, each toon can mine 190 pieces of mithril before the first refresh of nodes.. lets say we farm them 3 times a day, so 370 pieces of mithril before salvages etc.. per toonHow many sigils per day do you think that same single toon can generate without buying the 25 tokens needed for rerolling.. so mystic toilet is your saviour I guess…Now consider every player has at least 4 alts (so we don't leave FTP out of the equation).. that's over 1200 pieces of mithril + salvages etc each account can easily generate and use personally or throw to the market.. each day without even considering salvaging, rewards etc.Therefore the demand to spend the 300gold for your 85% of the armour set is irrelevant because the market would never likely have the demand for it unless ANET suddenly took all the nodes away and made mithril a commodity borne out of chance like the sigil is.

Bottom line .. no matter how you try to use mithril as your argument, you lose every time because the price is not the overriding factor here.. it is supply.. supply is what is controlling your price based off demand. If there were more lines of supply the sigil might still cost 300gold and make up 85% of the cost of the armour if players chose to buy it outright, but I would hazard a guess fewer would because it is not essentially being forced upon them to do so. if there were already alternative supply lines in game like there are mithril, but sure there will always be those whales seeking the path of least resistance I grant you that.

EDIT - BTW stock of Sigils is now under 600.. price has increased a little as well to 12gold now.. hopefully the next supply drop will land soon )I bet many players are wishing it was mithril that was actually needed, at least a decent resupply would only be 24hours away at worse :).

Ardid.7203 · September 27, 2018

So, when are you people saying this thing will even out?

Turkeyspit.3965 · September 27, 2018

@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:Now I am really beginning to become suspicious as to why your trying your hardest to defend this and smokescreen the issues.

I'm wondering why anyone is trying to defend this. The sigil will never drop back down to a price of 3s, which is fine, as I agree that if an item has such little value, something went wrong. But to allow crafting of "some" upgrade components while others are available for purchase from vendors, and then make this sigil only obtainable by leveling, RNG in the magic toilet or salvageable from exotics with random drop chances? What where they thinking with this sigil?

I'll be plain: either release a recipe to craft this sigil or add it to an NPC vendor, heart or otherwise, who will sell it for either coinage or map currency. And when that is done, do the exact same thing for every other upgrade component that isn't already available either through crafting or purchase from a vendor.

It doesn't matter what this sigil was worth before, or now. There are several arguably useless runes and sigils in this game, all either craftable or for sale by vendors. This should be the pattern for every sigil and rune in the game. Period. This is foolishness.

And someone above accused me of being upset, which I'm not, because I have zero interest in this collection or the armor skins - this is very much not a ME problem.

But I truly enjoy this game and when I see developers making poor design choices that are arbitrarily inconsistent with other choices made previously, I call it out in hopes of either getting them to change it, or avoiding similar poor design decisions in the future.

I'm not losing sleep over anyone having to spend 5g or 250g to acquire these skins - it is the design choice that I take issue with.

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 27, 2018

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:
@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:Now I am really beginning to become suspicious as to why your trying your hardest to defend this and smokescreen the issues.

I'm wondering why anyone is trying to defend this. The sigil will never drop back down to a price of 3s, which is fine, as I agree that if an item has such little value, something went wrong. But to allow crafting of "some" upgrade components while others are available for purchase from vendors, and then make this sigil only obtainable by leveling, RNG in the magic toilet or salvageable from exotics with random drop chances? What where they thinking with this sigil?

I'll be plain: either release a recipe to craft this sigil or add it to an NPC vendor, heart or otherwise, who will sell it for either coinage or map currency. And when that is done, do the exact same thing for every other upgrade component that isn't already available either through crafting or purchase from a vendor.

It doesn't matter what this sigil was worth before, or now. There are several arguably useless runes and sigils in this game, all either craftable or for sale by vendors. This should be the pattern for every sigil and rune in the game. Period. This is foolishness.

And someone above accused me of being upset, which I'm not, because I have zero interest in this collection or the armor skins - this is very much not a ME problem.

But I truly enjoy this game and when I see developers making poor design choices that are arbitrarily inconsistent with other choices made previously, I call it out in hopes of either getting them to change it, or avoiding similar poor design decisions in the future.

I'm not losing sleep over anyone having to spend 5g or 250g to acquire these skins - it is the design choice that I take issue with.

I don't think this would of solely been a developer decision, there was quite likely some bean counter interaction around the why's and wherefores of this collection.However to take your idea, that would be great and all, but ANET for all the arguments over the costs.. still need to create their revenue stream to pay for the work put into the content release... buy adding this arbitrary item to a vendor or heart quest would likely cull such lines of revenue, but there were certainly much fairer ways to implement this armour set and still allow ANET to reap some reward of their efforts in bringing what I consider some very decent content.. but they didn't and for me and likely others it has soured that good feeling surrounding this the content and does nothing to entice me to throw any coin into buying gems to spend in the gemstore or convert to gold.But who knows maybe there will be a sudden injection of a couple of hundred thousand sigils over the next week or so to at least keep some interest in this armour set :)

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 27, 2018

@Ardid.7203 said:So, when are you people saying this thing will even out?

By Christmas.. I'm just not sure which Christmas :)

Ol Nik.2518 · September 27, 2018

@Kiza.5630 said:
@"Ol Nik.2518" said:
Randomly, from throwing four major sigils in the Mystic Forge (there is a 20% chance of a superior sigil, of which this one is a potential drop) (_
according to Reddit, 8 stacks of major sigils [2 000] produced 4 Superior Sigils of Nullification
; of course, this is anecdotal data, your mileage may vary_).

This seems odd. I thought the lowest possible trade price of any major sigil was 2s 55c (can't check ingame right now, only via gw2tp

https://www.gw2tp.com/search?name=major+sigil&sort=sell_price&order=1

) which is 51g for 2000 sigils. And you have to be very lucky to get something worthwhile from it.

Major sigils are the rare ones. The vendor price is 1s 08 c for many of them (if not all). Therefore, the minimal TP price is 1s 08c + 15%, which is about 1s 25 c. One stack will be approximately 3g 13c. I do not see as a good way to obtain the Sigil of Nullification unless it will go to 20g/each. But even so, it is a nightmare for people with something like arthritis or carpal tunnel syndrome since mystic-forging cannot be done in batches. It can be automated using 3rd party software, but a) it may breach ToS, b) may not be available to everyone.

Kiza.5630 · September 27, 2018

Yeah seen the price can get lower on some of them, couldn't check outside the game really. But... 2000 sigils! You forge 4 and get one back so 2500 total. Double click to move to the forge (5000), and take 625 forged sigils out of it. That's 5625 clicks. And the sample size is kinda small given the number of potential sigils available to have a good statistic. I will never be that desperate to use the forge for this. :p(Yes you can use the forge again without one click to take result out of it. Still 5000)

Tetterwing.3981 · September 27, 2018

There are currently only 300 sigils and the cheapest one is 13 gold. Insert sigh here....

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 27, 2018

@Tetterwing.3981 said:There are currently only 300 sigils and the cheapest one is 13 gold. Insert sigh here....

You sure cos I haven't seen it drop below 400 yet, there has been a small injection recently of around 25 sigils + some other smaller amounts, the largest increase I have seen to day was around lunch time when around 80 extra supply landed... must be flipper releasing a bit more stock as the price had began to move north again.... its been sitting around 12.2 gold for whiles, with the exception of a view chancers seeking a quick win of their single sigil, bless them.Currently I am seeing around 435 left at 12g 35 sell.

I said earlier the market appears to be getting refilled in the hundreds by day... rather than the many thousands it needs to be at, but that isn't happening so its going to be a slow haul for those wanting the set, and a costly one.. unless some sudden market reversal happens.I would hazard a guess not even there isn't much above 1% of the player base that's got a completed set so far and most of those were done when there was still sufficient amounts of the initial supply still available.. now I think the true picture is starting to emerge...

Obtena.7952 · September 27, 2018

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:The problem of price is the intended side effect of this collection and players will be upset by the price, but also how long it is going to realistically take many to complete.. because there just isn't enough supply or enough supply potential to fix either of the issues.ANET risk players loosing interest in this faster than they hoped because aside from the steer to buy gems and convert to gold to pay the grossly inflated prices.. they wont be able to buy the sigils anyway when supplies hit rock bottom and rely on trickle feeding through in game.Less than 1k left in the system, small amounts coming in daily so far... even if we said there had been 10k sigils pass through the TP since the collection launched (which I am fairly sure there hasn't) that still only accounts for around 400 ish players completing sets plus some that had stashes already or bought stock in the first few hours the recipe became known .. now that initial stock that was in the system prior to the content release has been depleted we are left to hope more players have been sat on stashes or we all get really lucky in the toilet, otherwise it going to be a very slow, very expensive collection.

Can you even prove that it’s a small amount that’s being generated each day? No. You cannot.

Oh c'mon, really!You don't need to be a rocket scientist to determine that supply is extremely slow and what little there is coming in, is outstripped by the demand.. unless your seeing some upward trend in supply that no one else is.. of course players could be sat on them hoping for a further significant price hike.. but I think we both know that dog has now had its day , only small spikes up and downs will likely be seen now. The price we are seeing now is where it is pretty much going to be for some time to come unless there is a drastic drop off in demand through loss of interest.. very possible imo.If your still not convinced try using some maths to determine the mystic forge odds of minor sigil to major sigil conversion, then major sigil to superior sigil of nullification... good luck with those numbers. Then lets ask ANET how many players are buying up hundreds of 2k gem lvl up tokens to feed all our sigil habits... that could be an interesting number for sure. Then take a look at the TP history on the sigil 1 day prior to release and where we are now.. if the supply was anything more than lousy we would not be at 900 sigils now.. it has barely got over 3k sigils early on and its dropped ever since... so how can you determine anything other than supply in is in anyway greater than a hundreds per day, rather than the thousands per day required... please counter with something other than.."you don't know, I don't know"..

EDIT - Apologies 840 Sigils now not 900, whoops 801 now.....

That doesn't measure how many sigils are made or consumed daily ... The fact is that you can't measure the 'flow' of mats with the information we have. It appears to me that the only requirement to determine that supply is extremely slow and what little there is coming in, is outstripped by the demand is degree in garbage science. Anyone with a real background in science would know that simply measuring volumes doesn't indicate rates of change.

Here is a scenario ... I have 300 at the beginning of the day ... I end up with 400 at the end of the day ... what is the number coming in and out that day?

here is a hint ... how many combinations of (QTY IN, QTY OUT) numbers can result in that scenario?

The bottomline is that you or me or anyone else does NOT have the data to conclude there is something wrong here. Again, even if there is something wrong, we know Anet will do something about it, like they have done with MC's. This isn't a price OR a volume driven decision. It's based on supply and demand, i.e., how many flow in and how many flow out. WE can't measure that with the data we have unless someone with a non-garbage science degree starts thinking about how to do it (it can be done, but it's nothing like what most people are even capable of imagining)

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 27, 2018

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:The problem of price is the intended side effect of this collection and players will be upset by the price, but also how long it is going to realistically take many to complete.. because there just isn't enough supply or enough supply potential to fix either of the issues.ANET risk players loosing interest in this faster than they hoped because aside from the steer to buy gems and convert to gold to pay the grossly inflated prices.. they wont be able to buy the sigils anyway when supplies hit rock bottom and rely on trickle feeding through in game.Less than 1k left in the system, small amounts coming in daily so far... even if we said there had been 10k sigils pass through the TP since the collection launched (which I am fairly sure there hasn't) that still only accounts for around 400 ish players completing sets plus some that had stashes already or bought stock in the first few hours the recipe became known .. now that initial stock that was in the system prior to the content release has been depleted we are left to hope more players have been sat on stashes or we all get really lucky in the toilet, otherwise it going to be a very slow, very expensive collection.

Can you even prove that it’s a small amount that’s being generated each day? No. You cannot.

Oh c'mon, really!You don't need to be a rocket scientist to determine that supply is extremely slow and what little there is coming in, is outstripped by the demand.. unless your seeing some upward trend in supply that no one else is.. of course players could be sat on them hoping for a further significant price hike.. but I think we both know that dog has now had its day , only small spikes up and downs will likely be seen now. The price we are seeing now is where it is pretty much going to be for some time to come unless there is a drastic drop off in demand through loss of interest.. very possible imo.If your still not convinced try using some maths to determine the mystic forge odds of minor sigil to major sigil conversion, then major sigil to superior sigil of nullification... good luck with those numbers. Then lets ask ANET how many players are buying up hundreds of 2k gem lvl up tokens to feed all our sigil habits... that could be an interesting number for sure. Then take a look at the TP history on the sigil 1 day prior to release and where we are now.. if the supply was anything more than lousy we would not be at 900 sigils now.. it has barely got over 3k sigils early on and its dropped ever since... so how can you determine anything other than supply in is in anyway greater than a hundreds per day, rather than the thousands per day required... please counter with something other than.."you don't know, I don't know"..

EDIT - Apologies 840 Sigils now not 900, whoops 801 now.....

That doesn't measure how many sigils are made or consumed daily ... The fact is that you can't measure the 'flow' of mats with the information we have. It appears to me that the only requirement to determine that supply is extremely slow and what little there is coming in, is outstripped by the demand is degree in garbage science. Anyone with a real background in science would know that simply measuring volumes doesn't indicate rates of change.

Here is a scenario ... I have 300 at the beginning of the day ... I end up with 400 at the end of the day ... what is the number coming in and out that day?

here is a hint ... how many combinations of (QTY IN, QTY OUT) numbers can result in that scenario?

The bottomline is that you or me or anyone else does NOT have the data to conclude there is something wrong here. Again, even if there is something wrong, we know Anet will do something about it, like they have done with MC's. This isn't a price OR a volume driven decision. It's based on supply and demand, i.e., how many flow in and how many flow out. WE can't measure that with the data we have unless someone with a non-garbage science degree starts thinking about how to do it (it can be done, but it's nothing like what most people are even capable of imagining)

Of course it doesn't measure how many are exactly coming in.. only ANET have the figure but there is no logical way it can be anything substantial because supply is almost depleted already... you can argue that with science all you like but that fact is undeniable.There is no way to craft the sigil there is only luck and a single 1 sigil per lvl 64 reward to place into your scientific equations otherwise, if there were then maybe your opinion that there is potentially more supply coming into play than what we can see at any given point through the day would have some real mileage... yes there is some, but not enough.

Of course.. I forgot about the huge volume of players burning through all their tomes and buying up those 2k gem lvl up tokens 25+ times to ease their own pain and that of others ... yeah I think that's going to make a substantial dent in this issue, my bad..... in all seriousness there will be some that do that I know, but hardly enough to make even a small dent.

So, there in lies your problem, there is no viable, reliable supply route to market it is reliant on luck, so again try arguing that fact with science all you like, but luck is fickle and it only takes a few outliers on the wrong side to throw your science right out the window and in this case there will be many.If there was any substantial supply being generated, it is not being supplanted into the market, at least not in the numbers to make a difference to the gap in supply vs demand and that gap in unlikely to shorten anytime soon unless, like I have said players simply lose interest in it all together or a sudden pouring in of sigils from some flippers occurs (why would they do that.. they wouldn't) or everyone gets really lucky in the game of chance....At the rate that stock that was already accounted for in the system and all resupply that has occurred thus far, is being depleted, its more than possible that by tomorrow very few players will even be able to buy enough sigils to complete the armour set even if they were prepared to bite the bullet and pay the inflated prices.. unless your still confident there is some magic secret way of resupplying the market in the kind of numbers it needs and hope demand has fallen significantly for such a replenishment to have an effect.

Nah, sorry.. you can throw science at this as much as you like but the simple fact is there is no viable means to supply the market in the kinds of numbers needed, which is why I stand by the notion that the market is only being bolstered in the hundreds per day not the many thousands that it requires to ease the deficiency in costs and time for many players that were not able to take advantage of the price and/or the initial stocks already in the market at release... and that is why this is such a grossly unfair collection methodology ANET hase introduced.. its designed to utilise power trading and supply deprivation to induce a cashgrab via gem sales for as long as possible imo, but that comes with a risk if enough players loose interest fast in this, which would not surprise me in the slightest.

Tyson.5160 · September 27, 2018

Was is interesting is the price is steadily climbing and climbing. Yet no dev response. When does it become a problem? 20 gold, 30, 40?

Ayrilana.1396 · September 27, 2018

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:The problem of price is the intended side effect of this collection and players will be upset by the price, but also how long it is going to realistically take many to complete.. because there just isn't enough supply or enough supply potential to fix either of the issues.ANET risk players loosing interest in this faster than they hoped because aside from the steer to buy gems and convert to gold to pay the grossly inflated prices.. they wont be able to buy the sigils anyway when supplies hit rock bottom and rely on trickle feeding through in game.Less than 1k left in the system, small amounts coming in daily so far... even if we said there had been 10k sigils pass through the TP since the collection launched (which I am fairly sure there hasn't) that still only accounts for around 400 ish players completing sets plus some that had stashes already or bought stock in the first few hours the recipe became known .. now that initial stock that was in the system prior to the content release has been depleted we are left to hope more players have been sat on stashes or we all get really lucky in the toilet, otherwise it going to be a very slow, very expensive collection.