Semi and Perma-Stealth are junk mechanics

Hesacon.8735 · December 3, 2018

@Strider Pj.2193 said:E> @Hesacon.8735 said:
I wouldn't say stealth is too strong, it's a perfectly fine mechanic; but it's way too easy at the moment to
always
have it.
I was on my stealthless daredevil yesterday and got into a battle with a roaming Deadeye. Every time I go to fight he or she stealths several times, hits for 80-90% damage, and goes back into stealth. I'm a daredevil so I can outrun it out of combat to reset the fight and do.
Rinse and repeat this exchange a half dozen times across half the map and I'm not having any fun as I cannot win the fight, I have to play it to a draw.

Stealth access is part of the problem in that encounter. The other problem is you being able to run away and reset each and every time.

There are larger global issues here. Stealth and mobility are one part.

Oh for sure, my build is pretty cheese, but I still will avoid mirages, soulbeasts, and Deadeyes on it.

TinkTinkPOOF.9201 · December 3, 2018

But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?

The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.

Lonecap.4105 · December 3, 2018

I remember in City of Heroes, there was a thief class called Stalker which could one-shot you.

But there were a few ways it was manageable... first, the Stalker would have access to ONE skill it could use from stealth to instakill - Assassin's Strike. You would need to get into melee range, and then begin the length cast time (say 2 and half seconds). As soon as you cast the skill, the Stalker would be revealed, giving you a brief window to use control effects to stop it. If you moved away, and the Stalker finished the cast, you would still take the damage. But in Guild Wars, you could dodge or use a CD, improving that issue which was in CoH.

Burnfall.9573 · December 3, 2018

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:stealth is broken, thief is broken, mirage is broken.
If anet had a true balance team they would remove stealth and/or remove these two classes for a complete overhaul (including a big fat nerf). Only anet's balance team and thief players can think that hitting someone for 14+k damage, out of stealth and then disappearing into stealth is 'balanced'. Newsflash: it is not.

Well said

"It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP"(not excluding wvww)

http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

" HISTORY REPEATSITSELF, HAS TONOBODY LISTENS "

Strider Pj.2193 · December 3, 2018

@Hesacon.8735 said:
@Strider Pj.2193 said:E> @Hesacon.8735 said:
I wouldn't say stealth is too strong, it's a perfectly fine mechanic; but it's way too easy at the moment to
always
have it.
I was on my stealthless daredevil yesterday and got into a battle with a roaming Deadeye. Every time I go to fight he or she stealths several times, hits for 80-90% damage, and goes back into stealth. I'm a daredevil so I can outrun it out of combat to reset the fight and do.
Rinse and repeat this exchange a half dozen times across half the map and I'm not having any fun as I cannot win the fight, I have to play it to a draw.

Stealth access is part of the problem in that encounter. The other problem is you being able to run away and reset each and every time.

There are larger global issues here. Stealth and mobility are one part.

Oh for sure, my build is pretty cheese, but I still will avoid mirages, soulbeasts, and Deadeyes on it.

Sorry... wasn’t implying your build was cheese. And I can’t blame you for building the Mobility in to get away from those.

I run a sword/dagger weaver for the mobility. Focus would be more survivable, but I lose some of the ability to run.

Thief and Mesmer will both be very hard to ‘get it right’ when it comes to small scale, both with stealth and the mobility access. And I certainly don’t pretend to have the answers.

XenoSpyro.1780 · December 3, 2018

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.Even with a victory, that was the stupidest thing I've ever watched. To think it's worse with braindeadeye.

kash.9213 · December 3, 2018

@Burnfall.9573 said:
@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:stealth is broken, thief is broken, mirage is broken.
If anet had a true balance team they would remove stealth and/or remove these two classes for a complete overhaul (including a big fat nerf). Only anet's balance team and thief players can think that hitting someone for 14+k damage, out of stealth and then disappearing into stealth is 'balanced'. Newsflash: it is not.

Well said

"It isn’t often that I’ll feel inclined to point the finger at a class or two in a massively multiplayer game and blame it for the woes of an entire game mode. While I certainly wouldn’t go that far here, I do believe the Thief and Mesmer and some of their mechanics are the cause of many problems in Guild Wars 2’s PvP"(not excluding wvww)

http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

"

HISTORY REPEATSITSELF, HAS TONOBODY LISTENS

"

Do you two text each other any time thief is mentioned in a thread to remind each other to copy/paste your usual rants?

VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. · December 3, 2018

I dont copy and paste.

But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

Burnfall.9573 · December 3, 2018

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I dont copy and paste.
But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

" Searching for the truth is easy. Accepting the truth is hard "

Kash knows the truth but isn't willing to accept it

Kylden Ar.3724 · December 3, 2018

Semi-and Perma-Invulnerable are junk mechanics.

Semi-and Perma-Might are junk mechanics.

Semi-and Perma-Resistance are junk mechanics.

Semi- and Perma-AoE are junk mechanics.

WvW is junk mechanics.

If all you guys do is hate the game, leave.

NuhDah.9812 · December 3, 2018

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I dont copy and paste.
But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

What really is broken is the people lack of willingness to learn to play while having instead lots of time to and being overzelous in crying on the forums and asking for nerfs to cover for their lack of gameplay knowledge. Everyone knows that thief, with all it's stealth, has no chance to beat a high level player who built for 1v1. They can run away it's true, but wont be able to beat a professon meant for 1v1ing. You can better check this in the 2v2 arenas where you can see top players which are monsters with thief, like Sindrener and Toker, who have no chence against no-stealth pairs. You can see it's just a learning issue, and if you get beaten by a thief next time, you should at least consider the fact that they probably put way more effort in learning to fight and staying alive than you ever did and that it's time to look in what you are doing wrong instead of crying for nerfs and about stealth. Otherwise, be my guest and play thief and and be this broken monster you claim it to be. After youve beaten decent players on your faceroll class with thieaf come back and cry again on the forum.

TinkTinkPOOF.9201 · December 3, 2018

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Semi-and Perma-Invulnerable are junk mechanics.
Semi-and Perma-Might are junk mechanics.
Semi-and Perma-Resistance are junk mechanics.
Semi- and Perma-AoE are junk mechanics.
WvW is junk mechanics.
If all you guys do is hate the game, leave.

So never try and improve or fix anything, you either take broken stuff, or leave. That's your helpful input? Ok....

@NuhDah.9812 said:
@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I dont copy and paste.
But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

What really is broken is the people lack of willingness to learn to play while having instead lots of time to and being overzelous in crying on the forums and asking for nerfs to cover for their lack of gameplay knowledge. Everyone knows that thief, with all it's stealth, has no chance to beat a high level player who built for 1v1. They can run away it's true, but wont be able to beat a professon meant for 1v1ing. You can better check this in the 2v2 arenas where you can see top players which are monsters with thief, like Sindrener and Toker, who have no chence against no-stealth pairs. You can see it's just a learning issue, and if you get beaten by a thief next time, you should at least consider the fact that they probably put way more effort in learning to fight and staying alive than you ever did and that it's time to look in what you are doing wrong instead of crying for nerfs and about stealth. Otherwise, be my guest and play thief and and be this broken monster you claim it to be. After youve beaten decent players on your faceroll class with thieaf come back and cry again on the forum.

PvP is not WvW, dmg and stealth are not the same in both. And the fact a very good player, can beat a given build, does not mean that build or mechanics are not broken.

NuhDah.9812 · December 3, 2018

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Semi-and Perma-Invulnerable are junk mechanics.
Semi-and Perma-Might are junk mechanics.
Semi-and Perma-Resistance are junk mechanics.
Semi- and Perma-AoE are junk mechanics.
WvW is junk mechanics.
If all you guys do is hate the game, leave.

So never try and improve or fix anything, you either take broken stuff, or leave. That's your helpful input? Ok....

@NuhDah.9812 said:
@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I dont copy and paste.
But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

What really is broken is the people lack of willingness to learn to play while having instead lots of time to and being overzelous in crying on the forums and asking for nerfs to cover for their lack of gameplay knowledge. Everyone knows that thief, with all it's stealth, has no chance to beat a high level player who built for 1v1. They can run away it's true, but wont be able to beat a professon meant for 1v1ing. You can better check this in the 2v2 arenas where you can see top players which are monsters with thief, like Sindrener and Toker, who have no chence against no-stealth pairs. You can see it's just a learning issue, and if you get beaten by a thief next time, you should at least consider the fact that they probably put way more effort in learning to fight and staying alive than you ever did and that it's time to look in what you are doing wrong instead of crying for nerfs and about stealth. Otherwise, be my guest and play thief and and be this broken monster you claim it to be. After youve beaten decent players on your faceroll class with thieaf come back and cry again on the forum.

PvP is not WvW, dmg and stealth are not the same in both. And the fact a very good player, can beat a given build, does not mean that build or mechanics are not broken.

Well if you label broken something you dislike, than your statement is true, but very irrelevant. Otherwise, I dont see how broken is the right word in your statement. Stealth is just another mechanic of the game, like block invulnerability, dodge, barrier etc. It is usually used deffesively, but like the others it might be used with some some offensive advantage. It has it's counter in revealed and it can also be rendered useless by your own defensive mechanics, terrain and map awareness, fight intuiton and aoes.

I wasnt talking specifically about pvp, i just used 2v2s as an example, but be sure the 1v1 potential of a thief is proportionally the same as in pvp even in wvw. Thief might be fairing better in wvw than pvp, but so do the other professions if you know what you are doing. The only real advantage for some yhief builds in wvw is if need be they can run away easyer than in pvp.

The fact that a very good player can beat another very good player only prooves that you, the one who cries about it, need to learn to be better at your game so you wont feel so desperate when a better player beats you, also to understand that mecanics you want to believe are broken for your own commodity aren't actually that scary if you know what you are doing. Or if you prefere this phrasing: if you are weak you get beaten by things you shouldn't.

Rayya.2591 · December 3, 2018

stealth shoudn't make you invisibleAn example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

NuhDah.9812 · December 3, 2018

@"Rayya.2591" said:stealth shoudn't make you invisibleAn example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

The people who implemented stealth in that game probably did it the wrong way. They should learn from Anet how to do it.

kash.9213 · December 3, 2018

@"Straegen.2938" said:Since launch, stealthing into and out of fights has been broken. Every attempt to "fix" it with counters has proven almost pointless. The mechanic needs to get removed. It irritates pretty much everyone but the trolls that run it. Either stealth before or after an attack not both. Reveals need to be long and they should have no counter. I am fine reworking the handful of traits that revolve around this mechanic. Thieves already have strong evade and movement... I even play a variety of no-stealth builds with success.
This last mark counter was only needed because Deadeye had the ability to remove reveal. The mark mechanic is overly complicated manure for a junk stealth mechanic. Many of the serious thief nerfs over the years track back to balancing stealth. Instead of several weapon sets that work well with dynamic play, most are pigeoned into D/P, Rifle or both.
Tweaking stealth so it is an opener or escape rather than both will go a long ways towards removing one of the most crappy WvW mechanics this game has. Oh and yes, I mainly play a thief.

Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

TinkTinkPOOF.9201 · December 3, 2018

@NuhDah.9812 said:
@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Semi-and Perma-Invulnerable are junk mechanics.
Semi-and Perma-Might are junk mechanics.
Semi-and Perma-Resistance are junk mechanics.
Semi- and Perma-AoE are junk mechanics.
WvW is junk mechanics.
If all you guys do is hate the game, leave.

So never try and improve or fix anything, you either take broken stuff, or leave. That's your helpful input? Ok....

@NuhDah.9812 said:
@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I dont copy and paste.
But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

What really is broken is the people lack of willingness to learn to play while having instead lots of time to and being overzelous in crying on the forums and asking for nerfs to cover for their lack of gameplay knowledge. Everyone knows that thief, with all it's stealth, has no chance to beat a high level player who built for 1v1. They can run away it's true, but wont be able to beat a professon meant for 1v1ing. You can better check this in the 2v2 arenas where you can see top players which are monsters with thief, like Sindrener and Toker, who have no chence against no-stealth pairs. You can see it's just a learning issue, and if you get beaten by a thief next time, you should at least consider the fact that they probably put way more effort in learning to fight and staying alive than you ever did and that it's time to look in what you are doing wrong instead of crying for nerfs and about stealth. Otherwise, be my guest and play thief and and be this broken monster you claim it to be. After youve beaten decent players on your faceroll class with thieaf come back and cry again on the forum.

PvP is not WvW, dmg and stealth are not the same in both. And the fact a very good player, can beat a given build, does not mean that build or mechanics are not broken.

Well if you label broken something you dislike, than your statement is true, but very irrelevant. Otherwise, I dont see how broken is the right word in your statement. Stealth is just another mechanic of the game, like block invulnerability, dodge, barrier etc. It is usually used deffesively, but like the others it might be used with some some offensive advantage. It has it's counter in revealed and it can also be rendered useless by your own defensive mechanics, terrain and map awareness, fight intuiton and aoes.

I wasnt talking specifically about pvp, i just used 2v2s as an example, but be sure the 1v1 potential of a thief is proportionally the same as in pvp even in wvw. Thief might be fairing better in wvw than pvp, but so do the other professions if you know what you are doing. The only real advantage for some yhief builds in wvw is if need be they can run away easyer than in pvp.

The fact that a very good player can beat another very good player only prooves that you, the one who cries about it, need to learn to be better at your game so you wont feel so desperate when a better player beats you, also to understand that mecanics you want to believe are broken for your own commodity aren't actually that scary if you know what you are doing. Or if you prefere this phrasing: if you are weak you get beaten by things you shouldn't.

So you are making the claim that the ability to maintain a 90%+ stealth uptime, with the other 10% being when you are attacking, is totally normal and not broken? There is a large difference that you are purposefully ignoring of stealth and perma-stealth. And are trying to frame this as any stealth as broken, which is not, nor is it what I said, I even posted a video as an example so it would be very clear. Maybe we should bring back Ghost trap thief, since none of this is broken so they don't even have to come out of stealth to do DPS.

Reveal is short lived, and most only have access to a single skill that applies it on a rather long CD, DE now can also remove revealed. Many, like F1 on DH is also targeted, can be dodged etc etc. Block, invulnerability, dodge, barrier do not have a 90%+ uptime, and have more counters than specing into trying to reveal. The fact you mention aoes makes me think you are just a troll, as that is not effective, and the thief would have to willingly stand in stealth in the aoe, having awareness also does little for a stealth fight, as you can't see anything until it lands, and the nature of the game is that it takes a second for the thief to render once out of stealth. The ability to choose when and how a fight plays out, with little to no ability to apply counter pressure outside of when being attacked with Basilisk Venom. I love how defenders of ghost builds always toss down revealed, as one short lived reveal with a cast time and visual sign, is instant death to the thief, but BS or DJ etc from stealth those same people say "just dodge". They never factor or consider the same defenses other classes have, the thief has as well, they have invulnerability, they have dodge, they have evade on skills, and they have block, along with pretty good access to CC and unblockables.

I am not crying about it but suggesting changes be made for the game mode, I would also not call the player in my video very good, skill level was actually very low, I have fought much better thief/DE stealth builds before that also dealt far more dmg. I posted the video because of how face roll the playing was, same rotation, over and over again waiting to get lucky, or waiting to catch me with the right CD on to win the fight. No class should be able to engage and disengage with such impunity, until they make a mistake or get greedy. As it stands now, the combat terms are 100% on the thief's side. They can at will choose when, where and how it will go, and if they wish to end the fight, they have probably some of the best escape/reset ability in the game.

I could also beat hybrid mirage before the nerfs as well, that doesn't mean the builds were not absolutely broken.

Brujeria.7536 · December 3, 2018

Yes, stealth needs to be fully reworked, its a living meme . Especially in combination with mobility and other defense mechanics the problems get worse.

For a bandaid fix there should be 5 seconds of "revealed" after leaving stealth, regardless if it expires or it gets removed by attacking. Furthermore inflicting conditions should also count as an attack.

DemonSeed.3528 · December 3, 2018

@kash.9213 said:
@"Straegen.2938" said:Since launch, stealthing into and out of fights has been broken. Every attempt to "fix" it with counters has proven almost pointless. The mechanic needs to get removed. It irritates pretty much everyone but the trolls that run it. Either stealth before or after an attack not both. Reveals need to be long and they should have no counter. I am fine reworking the handful of traits that revolve around this mechanic. Thieves already have strong evade and movement... I even play a variety of no-stealth builds with success.
This last mark counter was only needed because Deadeye had the ability to remove reveal. The mark mechanic is overly complicated manure for a junk stealth mechanic. Many of the serious thief nerfs over the years track back to balancing stealth. Instead of several weapon sets that work well with dynamic play, most are pigeoned into D/P, Rifle or both.
Tweaking stealth so it is an opener or escape rather than both will go a long ways towards removing one of the most crappy WvW mechanics this game has. Oh and yes, I mainly play a thief.

Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

I...kinda want that XD Not gonna lie, the buffs it would get from a stealth nerf would be even better I think but more horrific for people to deal with than before.

Safandula.8723 · December 4, 2018

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?
The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.

U killed thief as dh, and started to jump on him, gz xD

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I dont copy and paste.
But someone has to tell the truth: thief and mesmer are utterly broken and should have never been put into this game in this way.

first time i see someone states, thief is broken lol. not sure if u meant DE or thief overall

Kylden Ar.3724 · December 4, 2018

@"Rayya.2591" said:stealth shoudn't make you invisibleAn example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

I almost agree with that.

@kash.9213 said:
Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

Yeah, Stealth is a primary defense tool for 2 classes. Both of which are high burst (Theif, Mesmer). I am not sure people know what they are asking for if they take away stealth from those classes, cause it would need to be replaced with a different defense option (read: more sustain).

Stealth is defense without damage reduction (by making you harder to notice or hit). If they gave us more defense WITH damage reduction, well, Mesmer is already insane there, and I can't imagine Daredevils with even more dodge/defense.

NuhDah.9812 · December 4, 2018

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
@NuhDah.9812 said:
@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Semi-and Perma-Invulnerable are junk mechanics.
Semi-and Perma-Might are junk mechanics.
Semi-and Perma-Resistance are junk mechanics.
Semi- and Perma-AoE are junk mechanics.
WvW is junk mechanics.
If all you guys do is hate the game, leave.