Semi and Perma-Stealth are junk mechanics

[TwiceDead.1963]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@"TwiceDead.1963" said:Yes, you are completely right. Complete Stealth is a garbage mechanic that's boring to fight with and against.

However, Thief exists. One of Thiefs class-mechanics is based and balanced around Stealth in it's current iteration. If you remove stealth, you have to completely revise how stealth-attacks work for Thieves, and consequently rework/buff the hell out of them since you leave a huge vacuum in their defensive arsenal if you remove it.

So yeah. Stealth sucks. Even some thieves decide to run S/D Core, which has limited stealth application, in exchange for a more visible but evasive playstyle.

Stealth doesn't need to be removed, I know some people would like that, but it's not needed. What is needed are some BUILDS, need to be adjusted to stop it's abuse, it doesn't need to be a blanket change to stealth either, as that will hurt other classes and builds. While core would need some changes over all, it would not hurt builds that don't fully depend on stealth for cheese one hit builds and constant resetting.

A good example of someone playing a build with minimal stealth use, while still having access to it, however stealth is still available to remove some pressure.

I'm not a big fan of stealth-mechanics in general, which is ironic since Thief is one of the classes I play the most. I prefer reactionary pvp duels where both opponents can read one-another. Stealth just takes that away completely leaving the opponent to count seconds, and try to make an accurate guess. At this point it's something I consider a necessary evil for thieves though, as they are ill-suited for straight up brawls.

This stackable perma-stealth business though, it is absolutely bonkers how easy it is to achieve. I don't have any solutions on offer though, nor should you take what I say too seriously as I am obviously biased against it. Just here, voicing my frustrations.

[NuhDah.9812]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@"TwiceDead.1963" said:Yes, you are completely right. Complete Stealth is a garbage mechanic that's boring to fight with and against.

However, Thief exists. One of Thiefs class-mechanics is based and balanced around Stealth in it's current iteration. If you remove stealth, you have to completely revise how stealth-attacks work for Thieves, and consequently rework/buff the hell out of them since you leave a huge vacuum in their defensive arsenal if you remove it.

So yeah. Stealth sucks. Even some thieves decide to run S/D Core, which has limited stealth application, in exchange for a more visible but evasive playstyle.

Stealth doesn't need to be removed, I know some people would like that, but it's not needed. What is needed are some BUILDS, need to be adjusted to stop it's abuse, it doesn't need to be a blanket change to stealth either, as that will hurt other classes and builds. While core would need some changes over all, it would not hurt builds that don't fully depend on stealth for cheese one hit builds and constant resetting.

A good example of someone playing a build with minimal stealth use, while still having access to it, however stealth is still available to remove some pressure.

Woh, the times when DrD was like that are long gone. In the meanwhile they nerfed the endurance generation a lot, nerfed staff an dp, nerfed PI, nerfed leaps, nerfed dash... so yeah, the next logical step is to kill stealth too...

[Susy.7529]

@XenesisII.1540 said:Stealth mechanics in this game are one of the worse in pvp settings.It will always be terrible because they will never change it since they've built a class entirely around it, the same class they also have hitting single targets the hardest.They've put in more reveals, then stealth trap, then a remove reveal, and now added mark, since the beginning for the game to deal with it is enough proof that it was never developed properly for the pvp environment in the first place.

Anet only puts bandaids over bandaids over bandaids on problems, they will never overhaul this mechanic, they will never balance this mechanic or the classes that overuses it, people will have to accept that.

Sad but true.

[Despond.2174]

I disagree. They did stealth really well in GW2. You have to work for it usually and there's a massive downside. Thieves are not prime teamfighters, they are horrible at contesting nodes against so many other builds, and even the most cheesy DE perma stealth build against a properly geared/good player is not going to get the dmg they need in their opener. You have to look @ the broader picture, and there are plenty of roaming OP builds that couldn't careless about stealthing or vs a sb/thief/mesmar

Any stealth/thief/rogue class gets a lot of hate in MMOs because usually there's some skill ceiling to play it well - look @ odl school sub rogues or Ninja in BDO. They can dish out great damage when combo'd but are countered very easily if they even slip up once.

It would be boring to just have everyone the same, stealth can be balanced. I think D/P thief in SPVP a few seasons ago is the perfect example of balancing a stealth class with enough drawbacks and rewards for excellent play. I mean I agree stuff like Ghost Thief was taking it too far, but they did address that. I think the current DE roam build is cheesy but it IS a gimmick build and has a low rate against any decent player.

Sometimes you have to put your random experience aside and look at it more objectively. I mean I can just hop on my spellbreaker and just /lol at thieves everywhere I go. Stealth is fine as long as there is some downside with utility, up time on dmg, survival etc. Thieves are hated no matter what happens, even when D/P was perfectly balanced and it took skill people still complained. It would be a boring game if everyone was just a dmg dummy charging in.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

What I have trouble understanding is, how reveal-skills can be evaded.For example detection pulse of sneak-gyro.

Immersion: you're in stealth and some guy 20m away activates some echolocation device. What do you do to stay in stealth? Barrel Dodge-roll!Most AoE reveal skills don't look like you could evade them via a dodge roll and stay in stealth...Gamewise: AoE-Reveals are either short duration, on a long CD, highly conditional or only affecting a small area. And most have a pretty easy to tell animation. So, unless the thief missed you or tries to save dodges, it's easy for him to evade the reveal.Otherwise the reveal-skills are not really worth taking...

For conter-play you can't really do more than setting traps and keeping your fingers above the keys you'll need next... or you throw a tantrum, pelt everything around you with AoE and dodge a few times in between for good measures. Must be entertaining for the thief at least.

Though, against stealthed thiefs, engis "throw mine" is one of the most satisfying skills. Especially with gadgeteer you lay 2 mines below you that will knockback people when they come near. also unblockable and remove a boon. However, since the 12s CD is starting once they are laid out, you can immediatelly throw another two. They are pretty weak and not really useful against anything else, but in those cases it's funny. ^^

[albotelho.2931]

It was broken in the beginning, it is still broken, and will always be... live with it or change game... I dont like the stealth system but like the game, I just started playing Mesmer and Thief to learn how it works and now I know a regular player will never die playing these classes, just need to be a little smart, so I just ignore both and move away let then get bored,

[Turk.5460]

@XenoSpyro.1780 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.Even with a victory, that was the stupidest thing I've ever watched. To think it's worse with braindeadeye.

How would you fix it? All power Thief iterations are among the squishiest of enemies. I feel that Stealth access should be reduced, but I can't think of a way to compensate Thieves for it, as compensation would absolutely be necessary. More hp perhaps? Maybe adding stability and blocks to certain abilities? More evades?

[MesmerizedNYC.2479]

As a primary wvw player, with mesmer (non stealther btw) - I can agree overall the stealth mechanic on thief can be a real pain but ultimately, I like the wvw game mode and won't let the frustration stop me from playing it though there were days post POF when I considered it. I'm not going to delve into what anet should or should not do since we know what that conversation entails. Here are some lessons learned that have helped me mitigate the perma stealthers and in fact, have made wvw more fun at times because it infuriates them to the point of getting insane trolly pms (my response, "sry i didnt just lie there and let you spike me down!") and them even camping spawn to look for rematches or ask for 1v1's:

1. Never fight Deadeyes in the open. Kite your way to trees, buildings, hills, walls etc while defending only - this allows you to force them into certain lines of sight that you can better predict for your own counters. (the tree branches can also block their camera line of sight for poor UI quality of life too) It's better than giving them a 360 degree field to choose to zero in on you. The central ruins and orchards are great for this if you are near.

2. If you can, fight them in camps or near keep doorways, preferably yours with ally vet guards. The vets can get in that one hit that gives you the advantage. I've seen it many times where a DE over invests in the zeal for the kill and gets walloped or immobilized by a vet giving me that a crucial 1-2 seconds to burst them down.

3. Pack stealth disruptors for back stabbers and try to force them into an attack lane that makes them hit you from your front or side. Put the disruptor behind you with access only from the front or side and stand a little in front of it with your back turned but with camera looking behind. Yes, they'll have seen you put it there but it changes the whole fight as they lose their high crit burst from behind and they have to reconsider their tactics. I've had many just waypoint when they see I've set them up to fail.

4. If they are really troublesome and won't give up pursuit, if you can, go underwater. 9/10 times from my experience, they won't follow.

Happy hunting!

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@"MesmerizedNYC.2479" said:As a primary wvw player, with mesmer (non stealther btw) - I can agree overall the stealth mechanic on thief can be a real pain but ultimately, I like the wvw game mode and won't let the frustration stop me from playing it though there were days post POF when I considered it. I'm not going to delve into what anet should or should not do since we know what that conversation entails. Here are some lessons learned that have helped me mitigate the perma stealthers and in fact, have made wvw more fun at times because it infuriates them to the point of getting insane trolly pms (my response, "sry i didnt just lie there and let you spike me down!") and them even camping spawn to look for rematches or ask for 1v1's:

1. Never fight Deadeyes in the open. Kite your way to trees, buildings, hills, walls etc while defending only - this allows you to force them into certain lines of sight that you can better predict for your own counters. (the tree branches can also block their camera line of sight for poor UI quality of life too) It's better than giving them a 360 degree field to choose to zero in on you. The central ruins and orchards are great for this if you are near.

2. If you can, fight them in camps or near keep doorways, preferably yours with ally vet guards. The vets can get in that one hit that gives you the advantage. I've seen it many times where a DE over invests in the zeal for the kill and gets walloped or immobilized by a vet giving me that a crucial 1-2 seconds to burst them down.

3. Pack stealth disruptors for back stabbers and try to force them into an attack lane that makes them hit you from your front or side. Put the disruptor behind you with access only from the front or side and stand a little in front of it with your back turned but with camera looking behind. Yes, they'll have seen you put it there but it changes the whole fight as they lose their high crit burst from behind and they have to reconsider their tactics. I've had many just waypoint when they see I've set them up to fail.

4. If they are really troublesome and won't give up pursuit, if you can, go underwater. 9/10 times from my experience, they won't follow.

Happy hunting!

Under water thief does actually hurt now with the changes to scyhe.

[Burnfall.9573]

" Time discovers truth "

Here is a thief player video guild on thief traits, mechanic. He states that every skill based around stealth as being "Ridiculous"(sure the video shouldn't being taken too seriously but the truth stands, Thief is a bad design fail that no other competitive game company would dare implement nor tolerate in their game(Even former Anet would dare not dream in implementing it in Guild Wars 1. Such shame really as a game "everything you like about Guild Wars you will like in Guild Wars 2"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

Godspeed Guild Wars; the memories, putting the players best interests in mind first, implementing a healthy competitive environment for each and all players alike, lastly having a clear vision with regular updates to keep a watchful eyes on Op builds, bugs and exploits........you will never be replaced.

[TwiceDead.1963]

@NuhDah.9812 said:Woh, the times when DrD was like that are long gone. In the meanwhile they nerfed the endurance generation a lot, nerfed staff an dp, nerfed PI, nerfed leaps, nerfed dash... so yeah, the next logical step is to kill stealth too...

Honestly if they did, I wouldn't mind, but they would have to rework a lot of thief. There's another problem with removing stealth though and that's class identity.If you remove stealth and buff thief in other ways to compensate such as Health and stability access, you'll just end up with a more agile Warrior, at which point it's become more of a subclass.

[NuhDah.9812]

@TwiceDead.1963 said:

@NuhDah.9812 said:Woh, the times when DrD was like that are long gone. In the meanwhile they nerfed the endurance generation a lot, nerfed staff an dp, nerfed PI, nerfed leaps, nerfed dash... so yeah, the next logical step is to kill stealth too...

Honestly if they did, I wouldn't mind, but they would have to rework a lot of thief. There's another problem with removing stealth though and that's class identity.If you remove stealth and buff thief in other ways to compensate such as Health and stability access, you'll just end up with a more agile Warrior, at which point it's become more of a subclass.

Identity aside, I personally can't approve of removing/changing a game mechanic that works just fine for people who don't even try to understand it, but condemn it for being broken. It's true, I play thief, posibly my opinion is biased, but I also fight against players who use stealth, and have absolutely no issue in dealing with it and have fun while doing it. It's true, I sometimes get nuked, it's true that sometimes I get defeated, but I've killed enough players that were using stealth or were being in stealth, to know there is nothing broken about it. The only thing that can be considered broken is 100% stealth uptime, but stealth otherwise is just fine.

[Aza.2105]

@zerorogue.9410 said:The stealth mechanic at it's base is not that bad. The idea of having a class that can go invisible has been in rpgs for years, if not since the very beginning.

Yes but a it has no place in a competitive setting. At least not in this form. When you look at a successful competitive game like overwatch. Sombra has stealth but its balanced by the fact that she isn't very strong. Her tool kit revolves around flanking and deception. She can not come out of stealth and one shot you. Like wise the Spy from TF2 has a similar playstyle. That it revolves around flanking and deception, except he could one shot you with his knife. But to do that you had to meet requirements (i.e stand behind the target and melee range) and even then it was risky because you are unstealthed after wards and the will likely be killed.

Now look at GW2 stealth. Both classes have high access to evade, extremely high damage from range, can weave in and out of stealth, has the ability to disengage at will, is relatively tanky due to lots of evade frames.

Stealth is unbalanced in GW2 because of the tool kit that surrounds it. Its like giving bastion mobility and the ability to stealth. It just doesn't make sense. At this point in time I'd say the damage is done. I do not think Anet will ever address the problem. Its been over 6 years and they still have not.

[Turk.5460]

@Aza.2105 said:

@"zerorogue.9410" said:The stealth mechanic at it's base is not that bad. The idea of having a class that can go invisible has been in rpgs for years, if not since the very beginning.

Yes but a it has no place in a competitive setting. At least not in this form. When you look at a successful competitive game like overwatch. Sombra has stealth but its balanced by the fact that she isn't very strong. Her tool kit revolves around flanking and deception. She can not come out of stealth and one shot you. Like wise the Spy from TF2 has a similar playstyle. That it revolves around flanking and deception, except he could one shot you with his knife. But to do that you had to meet requirements (i.e stand behind the target and melee range) and even then it was risky because you are unstealthed after wards and the will likely be killed.

Now look at GW2 stealth. Both classes have high access to evade, extremely high damage from range, can weave in and out of stealth, has the ability to disengage at will, is relatively tanky due to lots of evade frames.

Stealth is unbalanced in GW2 because of the tool kit that surrounds it. Its like giving bastion mobility and the ability to stealth. It just doesn't make sense. At this point in time I'd say the damage is done. I do not think Anet will ever address the problem. Its been over 6 years and they still have not.

GW2 is not a FPS. You cannot compare a FPS with "Move, Shoot, Alternate Shoot, Alternate Alternate Shoot" with a MMO that has traits, gear stats, at least 11 different abilities the player can activate, and vastly more complex combat mechanics.

If you want to make a comparison that even remotely holds water, try making a comparison from WoW or another MMO.

[Solori.6025]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:I remember in City of Heroes, there was a thief class called Stalker which could one-shot you.

But there were a few ways it was manageable... first, the Stalker would have access to ONE skill it could use from stealth to instakill - Assassin's Strike. You would need to get into melee range, and then begin the length cast time (say 2 and half seconds). As soon as you cast the skill, the Stalker would be revealed, giving you a brief window to use control effects to stop it. If you moved away, and the Stalker finished the cast, you would still take the damage. But in Guild Wars, you could dodge or use a CD, improving that issue which was in CoH.

Oooff unless you played CoH/V after the mass pvp exodus of i13That was not how energy stalkers worked in competitive pvp environments.

Superjump and superspeed were the go to movement options of choice.A stalker would superspeed past you, start the animation of assassins strike and as long as the animation started ( and I believe it had to last either 1/4 of a second or 3/4 of a second) you would get hit with the Assassins strike. Meaning, you could be jumping in the air, and land for not even a second and as soon as you were a good 20-30 ft away you either died or got all your health taken away. God help you if you took any damage before then because then they could just run past you and use Total Focus ( the skill that had you use both hands in the air and slam down, was great made you look like the hulk beefin on ninjas) and kill you anyway.Then they had placate- a get out of free card that would let them redo this. I'll try and find a vid of it, CoH was love glad to see another player from their :D

[Lonecap.4105]

@Solori.6025 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:I remember in City of Heroes, there was a thief class called Stalker which could one-shot you.

But there were a few ways it was manageable... first, the Stalker would have access to ONE skill it could use from stealth to instakill - Assassin's Strike. You would need to get into melee range, and then begin the length cast time (say 2 and half seconds). As soon as you cast the skill, the Stalker would be revealed, giving you a brief window to use control effects to stop it. If you moved away, and the Stalker finished the cast, you would still take the damage. But in Guild Wars, you could dodge or use a CD, improving that issue which was in CoH.

Oooff unless you played CoH/V after the mass pvp exodus of i13That was not how energy stalkers worked in competitive pvp environments.

Superjump and superspeed were the go to movement options of choice.A stalker would superspeed past you, start the animation of assassins strike and as long as the animation started ( and I believe it had to last either 1/4 of a second or 3/4 of a second) you would get hit with the Assassins strike. Meaning, you could be jumping in the air, and land for not even a second and as soon as you were a good 20-30 ft away you either died or got all your health taken away. God help you if you took any damage before then because then they could just run past you and use Total Focus ( the skill that had you use both hands in the air and slam down, was great made you look like the hulk beefin on ninjas) and kill you anyway.Then they had placate- a get out of free card that would let them redo this. I'll try and find a vid of it, CoH was love glad to see another player from their :D

I did actually leave the game during i9 after playing since US beta launch, but yeah I did mention if you moved off and the stalker finished casting, you'd still take damage. But in GW2 it wouldn't be so bad, because you have invulnerabilities you could use etc. Also yes it's always great to see a fellow CoH player!

[Klypto.1703]

Bleh the people who complain about stealth also complain about anything else they don't know or don't care to learn how to fight against. So if this were to happen they would just find something else that I killed them with to QQ about. Especially rofl I go on rev and I was like you saw me coming right but then they go oh yer able to react too fast with rev and we go back to square one were they don't realize its not the class its not the stealth its you.

[snh.7091]

@XenesisII.1540 said:Stealth mechanics in this game are one of the worse in pvp settings.It will always be terrible because they will never change it since they've built a class entirely around it, the same class they also have hitting single targets the hardest.They've put in more reveals, then stealth trap, then a remove reveal, and now added mark, since the beginning for the game to deal with it is enough proof that it was never developed properly for the pvp environment in the first place.

Anet only puts bandaids over bandaids over bandaids on problems, they will never overhaul this mechanic, they will never balance this mechanic or the classes that overuses it, people will have to accept that.

Completely agree with this. If they'd remove stealth, Deadeye would either need to go, or they would have to give them very long range radius (2k+ perhaps) to make them a proper sniping class without stealth and in close combat, well, either improved mobility (not more dodges, but somehow tweaked base speed with movement-impairment negating effects), or semi-cloaking abilities, like when you equip Trapper runes and get a bit of Superspeed and a bit of Stealth as a form of cloaking to blend temporarily with the environment to allow them to retreat.

As a sniper spec the focus should be heavy damage on long range, but I think it's hard to implement. While a spec like this is good for the FPS genre, I can see how it would annoy many people. Many newbies wouldn't dare enter WvW with a sniper on every higher rock waiting for them since gliding was introduced. They would never make it past the sentries at spawn points.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Rayya.2591" said:stealth shoudn't make you invisibleAn example from other game :

https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

I almost

agree with that.

@kash.9213 said:

Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

Yeah, Stealth is a primary defense tool for 2 classes. Both of which are high burst (Theif, Mesmer). I am not sure people know what they are asking for if they take away stealth from those classes, cause it would need to be replaced with a different defense option (read:

more sustain

).

Stealth is defense without damage reduction (by making you harder to notice or hit). If they gave us more defense WITH damage reduction, well, Mesmer is already insane there, and I can't imagine Daredevils with even more dodge/defense.

so both actually need stealth because of all their sustain, dodges and defenses. Well, just another reason to remove this entirely broken mechanic - without replacement.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Rayya.2591" said:stealth shoudn't make you invisibleAn example from other game :

https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

I almost

agree with that.

@kash.9213 said:

Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

Yeah, Stealth is a primary defense tool for 2 classes. Both of which are high burst (Theif, Mesmer). I am not sure people know what they are asking for if they take away stealth from those classes, cause it would need to be replaced with a different defense option (read:

more sustain

).

Stealth is defense without damage reduction (by making you harder to notice or hit). If they gave us more defense WITH damage reduction, well, Mesmer is already insane there, and I can't imagine Daredevils with even more dodge/defense.

so both actually need stealth because of all their sustain, dodges and defenses. Well, just another reason to remove this entirely broken mechanic - without replacement.

You're clearly not understanding the impact, you're just mad about a mechanic you haven't learned to counter play.

The current stealth package is PART of their defense WITHOUT being Sustain (because it only prevents damage at range, and if you're not trying to cleave/anticipate their burst you are doing it wrong). If you remove it, you either

1) Replace with MORE SUSTAIN which makes them even more frustrating.

2) Replace with more BURST/DPS, cause clearly you want to be one shot more, right?

Also, let go dude. It was a 5 day old thread.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@"Spartacus.3192" said:tbh i dont mind stealth as a mechanic what i dont like is how ANET implemented it. It lasts too long and ANET gave traits that give too many buffs while in stealth. Also what the heck is it with moving "faster" in stealth? That just doesn't make sense. If you're trying to sneak around and not be seen you shouldn't be able to move faster than if you were just sprinting unstealthed. The last game i played did stealth right. They made it so you moved at 66% of normal speed while in stealth. You need to trait it just to be able to move at normal speed. You could NEVER move faster than normal speed while stealthed. That way if you tried to perma stealth you could never catch someone who was trying to run away from you. That in itself is a good counter.

The only thing I like other games and lore, Thieves Stealth isn’t them trying to be sneaky, they are using Shadow magic to make them invisible no need to try sneak around slowly when you are just using magic to make you invisible.

[Loke.1429]

perma stealth is garbage. Im enjoying the game in wvw, then i meet perma stealth>waste a lot of time>get bored>strong urge to not play this game

[Psycoprophet.8107]

It boggles my mind why not only did arenet make invisibility true invisibility with no tells, but also u cant damage someone that’s invisible? That’s ridiculous,ur invisible not like ur turning to mist or anything like that. Being able to damage opponents and revealing them when they take damage would help the cheese mechanic not seem so bad lol

[Dawdler.8521]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:It boggles my mind why not only did arenet make invisibility true invisibility with no tells, but also u cant damage someone that’s invisible? That’s ridiculous,ur invisible not like ur turning to mist or anything like that. Being able to damage opponents and revealing them when they take damage would help the cheese mechanic not seem so bad lolBut thief is the worst 1v1 so it balances out.

Also, what are you even talking about?

[apharma.3741]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:It boggles my mind why not only did arenet make invisibility true invisibility with no tells, but also u cant damage someone that’s invisible? That’s ridiculous,ur invisible not like ur turning to mist or anything like that. Being able to damage opponents and revealing them when they take damage would help the cheese mechanic not seem so bad lolBut thief is the worst 1v1 so it balances out.

Also, what are you even talking about?

It's not the worst 1v1, it does heavily depend on the build the thief uses and the other class though. For example DP daredevil will beat power mes, non super tanky eles, core necros and reapers, used to beat core warrior and could beat revs OK. Sure you insta die if you make more than 2 mistakes but the fight is in your hands. S/D can counter a lot of melee builds with poor mobility and is a tank buster.

In regards to WvW there's not a 1v1 the thief can't usually choose to stalemate or rather not lose except maybe holo and soulbeast.