Please add limitions or selfprotection for "Ekto gambling"

[Skotlex.7580]

Psychological pathologies do remove part (if not all) of a person's free will.

But as others have said, how can one actually remove all ways of gambling from GW2? Due to law, some countries already got excluded from buying BL keys. If ecto gambling is removed, then there are alternatives, like mystic toilet exotics for the hope of a precursor. Or they could buy rare unidentified loot for the chance of valuable exotics. There might be more ways of gambling away gold in the game, and as long as one can buy gold with gems, it can feed into a gambling addict's impulses.

Could support block an account from gem buying? Seems like the most reasonable way to help an addict. D:

[Haishao.6851]

Why are you not helping your friend instead?The problem is not ecto gambling; it's your friend being addicted to it.All you're trying to do now is remove the issue from your sight. It makes it looks like you don't really care about your friend's addiction, but that she does it in front of you. And that look extremely selfish. You'll feel good about yourself while your friend keep suffering.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Madjoh.6054 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

@Madjoh.6054 said:

What about personal accountability

I'm wondering how many players will be lost if Ecto gambling is removed. Or, how about the slippery slope that removing such content leads to? I mean, there's always something in-game that 1 or a few players object to.I'm also wondering about all the other gambling games/apps/etc. available on the internet/through games/etc. Does the friend abstain from them? If so, there must be some kind of self-control in play; perhaps said self-control could be applied to Guild Wars 2, as well. And, if the friend gambles elsewhere online, it won't make any difference if it is removed from Guild Wars 2; the friend should seek some professional help.

Thanks for the advice, but she is old enough and she knows about her addiction.

To the rest, prove me wrong or answer my question: What do you gain from ekto gambling at all as an user?

Simple answer, it's a drain on the in-game gold and ectos. Not unlike the trading post fees.

It is in no way required (unless you are achievement hunting, and even then it is limited in cost). It is in no way "in your face" obvious implemented (I actually had to read about it to find the merchant). I could live without it, I don't really care either way if it stays in-game beside the ecto gambling's effect on the game economy.

Obviously your friend is not old enough and/or has not sought out counseling. Gambling addiction is a very serious problem for many people, especially adults. Could GW2 do without ecto gambling, sure. If you were sincerely concerned about your friend though, you would make sure she seeks counseling to be able to eventually cope with the addiction. While removing ecto gambling might be a temporary band-aid limited to 1 game and activity, the real answer would be:

• have her stop playing GW2
• get her help to cope with the addiction
• stay away from any form of gambling or gambling promoting games
• if the issue is handled, then maybe return

There are way more important steps to be taken beside having 1 insignificant feature get removed from an online game, if your friends health is your main concern.

[Linken.6345]

@Madjoh.6054 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

@Madjoh.6054 said:

What about personal accountability

I'm wondering how many players will be lost if Ecto gambling is removed. Or, how about the slippery slope that removing such content leads to? I mean, there's always something in-game that 1 or a few players object to.I'm also wondering about all the other gambling games/apps/etc. available on the internet/through games/etc. Does the friend abstain from them? If so, there must be some kind of self-control in play; perhaps said self-control could be applied to Guild Wars 2, as well. And, if the friend gambles elsewhere online, it won't make any difference if it is removed from Guild Wars 2; the friend should seek some professional help.

Thanks for the advice, but she is old enough and she knows about her addiction.

To the rest, prove me wrong or answer my question: What do you gain from ekto gambling at all as an user?

Its the only way to get supreme runes of holding in the pof ecto gamble aint it?

[zealex.9410]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Madjoh.6054 said:Then explain me, what do you gain from gambling at all as an user?

The reason non-addicts gamble is that there's a thrill of anticipation right before rolling the dice, spinning the wheel, or double-clicking an item. That is worth paying for, in the same way amateurs will go bungee jumping or jump out of an airplane (with a parachute).

As with anything that offers an endorphin rush, people get addicted to that feeling and want it all the time. After a while, addicts stop noticing the thrill; they just feel empty when it's not present. Otherwise unaffected folks (the vast majority) can take it or leave it.

Removing Ecto gambling from the game means that everyone who enjoys the occasion roll suffers so that those who are incapable of stopping themselves are shielded from their inability to choose differently. My friend has a subscription to GW2 in that he buys US$50 of BL keys whenever he's in the mood. He really enjoys it and it allows him to support the game in his own way, at his own pace.

I'm sorry that the OP's friend has a problem; I'm sorry that they have to see them suffer. I'm not convinced by the arguments made here that the OP's friend is best served by removing all forms of in-game gambling; I'm definitely not convinced that it's best for the entire community.

And ppl were mad a year ago about lootboxes. Oh how the times have changed.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@zealex.9410 said:

And ppl were mad a year ago about lootboxes. Oh how the times have changed.

Eh, it's the same times really. Belgium's gambling commission going full paternalism has meant that the same outrage can find a new target. Having been given an inch (cm), opponents of RNG in all its forms are now trying to take their mile (km). It's unfortunate, because there are legitimate concerns about actual predatory practices and addiction and protection of those who need it, and such issues are getting lost in the noise of so much shouting.

For otherwise healthy individuals, gambling is fun. Just as wine (and getting drunk) can be fun. Just as running or cycling can be fun. And for otherwise at-risk individuals, any of those can be dangerous, if not deadly.

[DaFishBob.6518]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Madjoh.6054 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

@Madjoh.6054 said:

What about personal accountability

I'm wondering how many players will be lost if Ecto gambling is removed. Or, how about the slippery slope that removing such content leads to? I mean, there's always something in-game that 1 or a few players object to.I'm also wondering about all the other gambling games/apps/etc. available on the internet/through games/etc. Does the friend abstain from them? If so, there must be some kind of self-control in play; perhaps said self-control could be applied to Guild Wars 2, as well. And, if the friend gambles elsewhere online, it won't make any difference if it is removed from Guild Wars 2; the friend should seek some professional help.

Thanks for the advice, but she is old enough and she knows about her addiction.

To the rest, prove me wrong or answer my question: What do you gain from ekto gambling at all as an user?

Its the only way to get supreme runes of holding in the pof ecto gamble aint it?

Also an achievement, and a portable vendor item guaranteed if you gamble enough.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

To the rest, prove me wrongAs the one making a suggestion, the burden is on you to offer evidence that the game is the root of an issue, in such a way as that changing the game is a good (if not the best) way to address that issue. That is, prove your claim that removing ecto gambling is important to helping your friend.

What do you gain from ekto gambling at all as an user?As has been stated by several people: it's fun. People like rolling the dice, especially when the jackpots are huge.

Interestingly, in the long run, the house's edge for ecto gambling is very, very small. The costs are always the same value, but the possible results have a huge spread in yield. Consequently, watching any particular person, we'll typically see long streaks of being mostly down, with huge spikes of being up by a lot ... or down by a lot. Play for long enough, and you'll always lose (as it is with all organized gambling). But with this system, play for long enough and you won't be down by much.

(The problem is that "long enough" is so long as to be outside the reasonable investment of most players in the game, i.e. tens or hundreds of thousands of gold, not hundreds.)

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Madjoh.6054" said:Dear folks,I need to talk about gambling in this game. My friend is addicted to gambling and lost regulary all her gold and items. To prevent being bankrupt she buys from her real money gold. How can a game with a rating for children (12+) enter this kind of gambling, which nearly no rewards in the end. The producers must rethink the strategy to gain money from the ppl, otherwise some region (Florida,Begium) disband Guild Wars 2 in total and EU in total can follow soon. I get really upset, that ppl, like my friend, dont get protected this kind of gambling. Remove the possibility to ekto gambling at all!

GreetingsMadjoh

PS:I hate lootboxes with random items , but this shouldnt be the topic in this thread. So pls, dont combine these topics. Thx

Ever noticed how many posts like these give anecdotal evidence and pretend to speak for other people?It's always "my friend"..."my guildie"..."a bunch of people I know".Your "friend" obviously has no problem funding her GW2 ecto gambling habit with RL money because:1.She continues to do it.2.She is not making the post for herself.Worry less about the concerns of other people.No one takes sock puppet posts like yours seriously anymore.

[Primal Duolog.9863]

I am speaking as someone who frequently ecto gambles and understands very well both the highs and pitfalls of ecto gambling.(Doubt anyone who has commented thus far has ecto gambled as much as myself, tens of thousands of rolls, over 100,000 gold in losses)

The lure of ecto gambling is that it offers profits in seconds that outstrips what you can earn by playing in game for a day at a supposedly better rate than black lion chests. To most GW2 players who play casually, this can be a moderately impressive sum. However, this will hardly devolve into an addiction unless you are already predisposed to it, which varies from person to person.

Your friend has already crossed the threshold if she is willing to use real money to fuel an in-game gambling habit. However, this is an individual problem, not a system problem. No offense, the solution should be one that caters to her personally and not something that is a community-wide fix because it is her personal self-control that is lacking. There are already several suggestions in the thread for her problem.

As for myself, I have never even briefly considered converting real money to in game currency for the sake of gambling. For black lion chest keys to get exclusive skins, maybe. But never for ecto-gambling.Do I consider myself addicted? yes.Do i know where I want to draw the line? yes.The system cannot always accommodate the lowest common denominator. If you cannot gamble within your means, then the problem is not the accessibility of gambles.

[Cyninja.2954]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Madjoh.6054 said:Then explain me, what do you gain from gambling at all as an user?

The reason non-addicts gamble is that there's a thrill of anticipation right before rolling the dice, spinning the wheel, or double-clicking an item. That is worth paying for, in the same way amateurs will go bungee jumping or jump out of an airplane (with a parachute).

As with anything that offers an endorphin rush, people get addicted to that feeling and want it all the time. After a while, addicts stop noticing the thrill; they just feel empty when it's not present. Otherwise unaffected folks (the vast majority) can take it or leave it.

Removing Ecto gambling from the game means that everyone who enjoys the occasion roll suffers so that those who are incapable of stopping themselves are shielded from their inability to choose differently. My friend has a subscription to GW2 in that he buys US$50 of BL keys whenever he's in the mood. He really enjoys it and it allows him to support the game in his own way, at his own pace.

I'm sorry that the OP's friend has a problem; I'm sorry that they have to see them suffer. I'm not convinced by the arguments made here that the OP's friend is best served by removing all forms of in-game gambling; I'm definitely not convinced that it's best for the entire community.

And ppl were mad a year ago about lootboxes. Oh how the times have changed.

Are you seriously comparing a mechanism around which an entire gaming industry is built around and designs their games (especially mobile games) which markets to children as young as 4 years, to an in-game feature as ecto gambling? Stop crying fire when there is not even smoke.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

I like lootboxes

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

@OP: As far as I know, no region/state/country/territory has banned Guild Wars 2 in toto. Only Belgium (not Florida) has restricted the purchase of Black Lion Chest Keys, and bundles containing said Keys.

It's always best to be accurate with your argument.Good luck (on your suggestion).

[Blocki.4931]

Such an incredibly minor part of the game that was designed to be a gold sink.

Idk, it's really easy to avoid the two spots where you can do it forever.

[Arioch.4810]

First impression: sandstorm lucky draw is not the usual random loot box obtained for money, and by my reasoning it is not the same as loot boxes.But:Container opened in game for exclusive item with chance affecting outcome of opening it/obtaining desired itemMeans of opening container are purchasable for real word money (although not directly - this is important distinction i think)

Question is, how exactly is Belgium law that caused suspension of Black lion key sales worded. If it is broad enough Anet will indeed have to tweak Sandstorm lucky draw - either by displaying chance for desired outcome in game, or by replacing part of opening mechanism for some account bound currency not obtainable via RMT(switch ecto for unbound magic - person can no longer purchase key by spending cash for gems and then buying ecto on TP )

[Ashen.2907]

Taking responsibility for one's own actions rather than asking others to protect you from yourself was the norm at one point. Now its, "how dare you let me do what I want!" Sigh.

[Madjoh.6054]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:Ever noticed how many posts like these give anecdotal evidence and pretend to speak for other people?It's always "my friend"..."my guildie"..."a bunch of people I know".Your "friend" obviously has no problem funding her GW2 ecto gambling habit with RL money because:1.She continues to do it.2.She is not making the post for herself.Worry less about the concerns of other people.No one takes sock puppet posts like yours seriously anymore.

I can write I got the gambling problem, but is not the truth. Blaming me to speak out, what I think or write, is far too easy to avoid the question.

Could support block an account from gem buying? Seems like the most reasonable way to help an addict. D:That would be great. With the problem in Belgium and following countries they should invest time to create a protections for the "holders" of ANet too. Because theses problems dont solve it by ignoring. There will be more restrictions to protect people and especially children soon. Some can flame about that and speak out self-determination. But this dont work for everybody. To protect the minority of some ppl, the rest of us will need to build some wall to claim. This now is far too easy and the most important thing FAR FAR too fast to gamble with all the money! Today gamblers can activate an agreement to stop online gambling at all. Why could be not integraded in the game? You can ectogambling and with the protection for those, who got the problem (or lawbinded).

@all Pls, this is should be civil. Some writers protect the actual status at all cost, without any empathy or any solutions to this problem. I read all your posts and remember the time, when the lootboxes shitshorm 1 year ago. But I try to avoid that discussion, because it has nothing to do with the problem I write.

[TexZero.7910]

@Madjoh.6054 said:Dear folks,How can a game with a rating for children (12+) enter this kind of gambling, which nearly no rewards in the end.

GreetingsMadjoh

God i hate this defense.

Let me fix it for you. The game is allowed to be played by minors with adult supervision.

If you don't want to do your parental obligations for your hypothetical minor then yes, what befalls them is fine as it was your neglect that caused it.

[Primal Duolog.9863]

@Madjoh.6054I am glad to see your stance has softened a little to be from 'removing ecto gambling from the game ' to 'block a specific account from real money conversion to in-game currency'. That is unless I misinterpreted what you were trying to convey.

Ideally, in a vacuum utopia, this will be one of those 'cherry-on-top' add-ons for a game like GW2, since their main business is probably not a gambling-centric activity like online gambling.However in reality, I do think having an opt-in or opt-out option of such an agreement if they implement it across every account would involve a lot of work for the game company, for a relatively low percentage of people in the game that will actually need it. And let's not mention people who buy the game and skip through the written agreements and then complain about stuff afterwards; that will just generate a whole lot of ' why can't I buy gems' threads if such an agreement was added.

The answer to your request will likely not be found here but, as others have said, can be settled in a more personal manner of a support ticket.A Dev will unlikely to be able to comment on a thread like this even if they read it, although they may reach out to you through a mail. But any pro-active action on your part will likely go towards solving the problem quicker than waiting for a helping hand.

[InvaGir.9158]

@Madjoh.6054 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

@Madjoh.6054 said:

What about personal accountability

I'm wondering how many players will be lost if Ecto gambling is removed. Or, how about the slippery slope that removing such content leads to? I mean, there's always something in-game that 1 or a few players object to.I'm also wondering about all the other gambling games/apps/etc. available on the internet/through games/etc. Does the friend abstain from them? If so, there must be some kind of self-control in play; perhaps said self-control could be applied to Guild Wars 2, as well. And, if the friend gambles elsewhere online, it won't make any difference if it is removed from Guild Wars 2; the friend should seek some professional help.

Thanks for the advice, but she is old enough and she knows about her addiction.

To the rest, prove me wrong or answer my question: What do you gain from ekto gambling at all as an user?

I sometimes win and get extra gold...Its a win for me when I hit the jackpot...Or maybe you expect to get a different answer.In that case I can't lie and say I will win free puppies :\

[Leo G.4501]

What lead your friend to be addicted to gambling?

Rather than ban something, I'd prefer to just educate people on probability. Some people know the odds and just enjoy playing them. Losing isn't technically harmful as it is part of the concept of gambling (it's what makes winning feel good). It's pointless banning everything people deem as bad as that just leads to more limitations and less freedom.

What's stopping the banning or limitation on MMORPGs? It can be seen as addicting and harmful to people's social life. Why not limit all players to only 3 hours a day? How about internet addiction? Should IPSs start throttling your bandwidth after a certain threshold of data so as to limit the harmful effects of over exposure to the internet?

[starhunter.6015]

No your friend is a adult ? Maybe you should go get her some medical help for her addiction instead of wanting a game to remove a feature that is purely by choice that others enjoy and do not have a problem with.To me when I have a few extra gold and Ecto's I may hit up the Skritt and give it a go and win or lose I am not out of any real cash. An I get to enjoy the game of chance at my own choosing.

[Madjoh.6054]

@InvaGir.9158 said:

I sometimes win and get extra gold...Its a win for me when I hit the jackpot...Or maybe you expect to get a different answer.In that case I can't lie and say I will win free puppies :\

Nop, i dont expect a different answer. But it is what I got in mind. Sometimes free cash or free mats, but longterm you will loose.

@"OpiumRagDoll.1086" said:@Madjoh.6054I am glad to see your stance has softened a little to be from 'removing ecto gambling from the game ' to 'block a specific account from real money conversion to in-game currency'. That is unless I misinterpreted what you were trying to convey.

Ideally, in a vacuum utopia, this will be one of those 'cherry-on-top' add-ons for a game like GW2, since their main business is probably not a gambling-centric activity like online gambling.However in reality, I do think having an opt-in or opt-out option of such an agreement if they implement it across every account would involve a lot of work for the game company, for a relatively low percentage of people in the game that will actually need it. And let's not mention people who buy the game and skip through the written agreements and then complain about stuff afterwards; that will just generate a whole lot of ' why can't I buy gems' threads if such an agreement was added.

The answer to your request will likely not be found here but, as others have said, can be settled in a more personal manner of a support ticket.A Dev will unlikely to be able to comment on a thread like this even if they read it, although they may reach out to you through a mail. But any pro-active action on your part will likely go towards solving the problem quicker than waiting for a helping hand.I thanks for your post, I agree. Maybe my intension is to create a discussion. Maybe someone from the devs/producers read it.

[Leo G.4501]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@"Shala.8352" said:and if she didnt bankrupt, the gamgling in this game would be okay? Doesnt matter if it's a 12+ game, a child is not gambling real money in this game, only gold. And how is a child able to buy gold for real money? Do his parents give him a real credit card? In italy you can have a credit card and do transaction with it only if you are 18+.If you consider ecto gamling as a real money gamble, then also any flipper in any video game room is a money gamble game.

Your friend has to learn that in the real world, and in videogames too, no one gives away anything for nothing. And this is coming from someone who lost 4k gold in ecto gamble.

Your missing the point.. the child might only be gambling in game gold but it implants the desire to gamble and that then bleeds outside of the game.. that is the issue surrounding gambling activities within games and why some countries are beginning to take it very seriously.Gambling addiction does not just happen all of a sudden it starts from the smallest seed and grows.If this child is left to undertake such activities then parents must shoulder the blame for sure, but implementing the ability to gamble lies firmly at the feet of ANET and other companies that are keen to profit from it. Business is business, but when such in game systems are expose those underage and at risk then there is a problem and it seems countries like Belgium have taken a stand to out such activities that promote the risk, it won't be too long before others take the same decisions imo. The UK is already looking at it, gambling companies are now being pushed to do away with all forms of in event advertising whilst events are active and rightly so.Loot boxes, especially in the way ANET implements them, does however offer some half way house solution, same as the random mount boxes by offering other ways to obtain some of shinnies without the need to gamble.. it's not perfect imo, but it's a step in the right direction.

I'd argue the opposite.

A child exposed to probability that is truly random is more likely experience the "losing" side of the gamble and understand that this is the most likely outcome. There's also the possibility they will ONLY experience the "winning" side of the gamble and get a skewed impression of gambling, but it's unlikely.

It's the same thing with certain religious sects that prohibit all forms of sexual contact until after marriage and you end up with repressed people that resort to deviant behavior that ends up causing more harm to others. These individuals are so unprepared to deal with these situations, unintended results happen and you end up with religious leaders taking advantage of kids or mature adults selling their entire properties trying to win back stuff they gambled away.

[Madjoh.6054]

@starhunter.6015 said:No your friend is a adult ? Maybe you should go get her some medical help for her addiction instead of wanting a game to remove a feature that is purely by choice that others enjoy and do not have a problem with.To me when I have a few extra gold and Ecto's I may hit up the Skritt and give it a go and win or lose I am not out of any real cash. An I get to enjoy the game of chance at my own choosing.

My friend age is 50+. Age doesnt matter, when you cannot control or willing to change her habbits. She tries to get joy from that, but failed miserable and fall more and more...