Exalted Shoulders gated behind random BLC drop?

[Danikat.8537]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:Belgium has done it, UK looking at gambling laws.. other countries will undoubtedly follow.That's not clear. There's some momentum based on the Belgian example, but it's apparently lost steam, compared to last year. A 'declaration' was made by a group of regulators in September 2018; it's not clear if it's had any specific impact other than generate publicity.

(Side note: I don't mean to suggest that's nothing. Clearly, publicity is going to be a necessary component of any evolution of views on the topic. I meant that no one has chosen to act with the same speed as Brussels did.)

I also recall some movement in the states regarding these issues.. was it Hawaii or something that kicked it all off?A single state legislator from Hawaii (Chris Lee) promised to introduce legislation. I thought that was going nowhere (politicians say a lot of things). The bill was presented, along with three other pieces of legislation that included loot box regulation components; none of these proposals made it "out of committee." Only one US regulator signed the 2018/September declaration, from Washington state (although small, it's notable because of the presence of Amazon & Microsoft). Notably, no one at the US Federal level signed on, and likely they would have to, since this would fall under "online gaming," not "gaming taking place within a state's borders."

A bill was introduced in Washington state (SB 6266) & one in Minnesota (HF 4460) in April. Neither seems to have gone anywhere.

tl;dr I don't think it's fair to say that "other countries will undoubtedly follow." I think it's more accurate to say that in a year's time, the landscape for loot boxes will look different; it's far too soon to predict in what ways.

Various Articles Regarding Lootboxes

• Legal Status of Lootboxes Around the World (PC World)
  (tl;dr jury still out)
• Federal Trade Commission (US) (Polygon): What's Next?
  (tl;dr FTC said it will investigate, but they haven't taken even the first step. More importantly: the current administration is reluctant to add any regulations at all)
• 15 Countries & One US State Team Up (Ars Technica)
  (tl;dr this was the September 2018 'declaration' -- spot checking, I personally didn't find any follow ups, but I confess to stopping after 3 searches; I didn't check all 18 names)

If you're looking at the UK specifically I think you have to bear in mind that our government is currently incapable of achieving...well, anything, and won't be for 2 months at least (likely much longer). It doesn't mean there's no support for new gambling legislation or that it won't happen, just that it can't happen yet because of other issues.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

Although BLC keys can be bought with real money, they can also be bought with in-game gold (e.g., from farming) converted to gems. So there is no requirement to spend real-world money on keys and chests. (Moreover, there's no requirement to ever open a BLC chest to progress in the game.) It's not clear to me where the line is drawn as to when it is gambling vs. simply exercising a personal preference to spend real-world money over farming/grinding.

[Nury.3062]

I agree with removing the black lion chests and have the skins in the gem shop but i want in change for every living world to be a paid dlc and the game to have a sub. It's a give and take situation.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Danikat.8537" said:If you're looking at the UK specifically I think you have to bear in mind that our government is currently incapable of achieving...well, anything, and won't be for 2 months at least (likely much longer). It doesn't mean there's no support for new gambling legislation or that it won't happen, just that it can't happen yet because of other issues.

The only thing I'm trying to do is present as objective as possible view of what has happened so far; that's difficult enough. When it comes to predicting the future, that's even tougher. That's why I stuck with the following:

• Who has made claims about plans to address the issue.
• Where those claims have gone to date, as best as I could find out without making it my life's work.

A year ago, lots of officials made claims; as of this month, only Brussels has acted in a substantive way. One country has implemented actual regulations. The rest are, at most, talking about regulations, although none have (ahem) ruled them out entirely. That suggests that, at best, we simply don't know enough to predict what we will see in a year. Which is why my tl;dr kept to the minimum:

I don't think it's fair to say that "other countries will undoubtedly follow." I think it's more accurate to say that in a year's time, the landscape for loot boxes will look different; it's far too soon to predict in what ways.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

To get things back on track, here's the originating post from the thread (truncated to focus on the core point):

@Rewan.8490 said:i find it quite sad that the cool new Exalted shoulder skin is gated behind a random BLC drop AND is account bound. I don't mind spending a couple of gems for a cool skin, but this? Just to get people to buy black lion keys a bunch and not even getting the shoulders?

[Ashen.2907]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:Belgium has done it, UK looking at gambling laws.. other countries will undoubtedly follow.That's not clear. There's some momentum based on the Belgian example, but it's apparently lost steam, compared to last year. A 'declaration' was made by a group of regulators in September 2018; it's not clear if it's had any specific impact other than generate publicity.

I also recall some movement in the states regarding these issues.. was it Hawaii or something that kicked it all off?A single state legislator from Hawaii (Chris Lee) promised to introduce legislation. I thought that was going nowhere (politicians say a lot of things). The bill was presented, along with three other pieces of legislation that included loot box regulation components; none of these proposals made it "out of committee." He did not, however, originally sign up with the so-called declaration (although a regulator from a different state, Washington, did so).

A bill was introduced in Washington state (SB 6266) & one in Minnesota (HF 4460) in April. Neither seems to have gone anywhere.

I don't think it's fair to say that "other countries will undoubtedly follow." I think it's more accurate to say that in a year's time, the landscape for loot boxes will look different; it's far too soon to predict in what ways.

Various Articles Regarding Lootboxes

• Legal Status of Lootboxes Around the World (PC World)
  (tl;dr jury still out)
• Federal Trade Commission (US) (Polygon): What's Next?
  (tl;dr FTC said it will investigate, but they haven't taken even the first step. More importantly: the current administration is reluctant to add any regulations at all)
• 15 Countries & One US State Team Up (Ars Technica)
  (tl;dr this was the September 2018 'declaration' -- spot checking, I personally didn't find any follow ups, but I confess to stopping after 3 searches; I didn't check all 18 names)

UK is already talking with Gambling / addiction institutions. Last month in event gambling advertising was taken offscreen.. a small gesture from those businesses as they are all to aware the government is now looking seriously into the issues. There have been some pretty distasteful stats released concerning underage gambling in the UK.. and something does need to change imo. Laws are one thing, getting business to step up and take greater responsibility is another, especially in this day an age when there are so many youngsters with a mobile, tablet etc at their every minute disposal - and yes parents need to shoulder some of that responsibility to help safeguard their kids, I know I do.That said, I never said change would happen overnight but no smoke without fire and other EU countries are equally as concerned. Hats off to Belgium for stepping up I say.Don't get me wrong I believe ANET are much better than most when it comes to loot boxes and they have already shown us they are prepared to listen and offer specific purchase options for those not liken to things like the mount box gambles.If I am honest I have never been totally convinced GW2 loot boxes are a gamble.. I always get something back and sometimes more than I expected... but yeah I guess if you go full throttle into loot boxes expecting to get the one thing, then your setting yourself up for disappointment, at least now we have vendors that offer many of those items for a price.

I would be all for, "businesses taking greater responsibility," if consumers would do so.

A citizen asking that goverment use threat of lethal force to force another citizen to not enjoy a game how he sees fit is obscene IMO. (not directed at you personally, just tagged on to the end of my post as an afterthought)

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:Belgium has done it, UK looking at gambling laws.. other countries will undoubtedly follow.That's not clear. There's some momentum based on the Belgian example, but it's apparently lost steam, compared to last year. A 'declaration' was made by a group of regulators in September 2018; it's not clear if it's had any specific impact other than generate publicity.

I also recall some movement in the states regarding these issues.. was it Hawaii or something that kicked it all off?A single state legislator from Hawaii (Chris Lee) promised to introduce legislation. I thought that was going nowhere (politicians say a lot of things). The bill was presented, along with three other pieces of legislation that included loot box regulation components; none of these proposals made it "out of committee." He did not, however, originally sign up with the so-called declaration (although a regulator from a different state, Washington, did so).

A bill was introduced in Washington state (SB 6266) & one in Minnesota (HF 4460) in April. Neither seems to have gone anywhere.

I don't think it's fair to say that "other countries will undoubtedly follow." I think it's more accurate to say that in a year's time, the landscape for loot boxes will look different; it's far too soon to predict in what ways.

Various Articles Regarding Lootboxes

• Legal Status of Lootboxes Around the World (PC World)
  (tl;dr jury still out)
• Federal Trade Commission (US) (Polygon): What's Next?
  (tl;dr FTC said it will investigate, but they haven't taken even the first step. More importantly: the current administration is reluctant to add any regulations at all)
• 15 Countries & One US State Team Up (Ars Technica)
  (tl;dr this was the September 2018 'declaration' -- spot checking, I personally didn't find any follow ups, but I confess to stopping after 3 searches; I didn't check all 18 names)

UK is already talking with Gambling / addiction institutions. Last month in event gambling advertising was taken offscreen.. a small gesture from those businesses as they are all to aware the government is now looking seriously into the issues. There have been some pretty distasteful stats released concerning underage gambling in the UK.. and something does need to change imo. Laws are one thing, getting business to step up and take greater responsibility is another, especially in this day an age when there are so many youngsters with a mobile, tablet etc at their every minute disposal - and yes parents need to shoulder some of that responsibility to help safeguard their kids, I know I do.That said, I never said change would happen overnight but no smoke without fire and other EU countries are equally as concerned. Hats off to Belgium for stepping up I say.Don't get me wrong I believe ANET are much better than most when it comes to loot boxes and they have already shown us they are prepared to listen and offer specific purchase options for those not liken to things like the mount box gambles.If I am honest I have never been totally convinced GW2 loot boxes are a gamble.. I always get something back and sometimes more than I expected... but yeah I guess if you go full throttle into loot boxes expecting to get the one thing, then your setting yourself up for disappointment, at least now we have vendors that offer many of those items for a price.

I would be all for, "businesses taking greater responsibility," if consumers would do so.

A citizen asking that goverment use threat of lethal force to force another citizen to not enjoy a game how he sees fit is obscene IMO. (not directed at you personally, just tagged on to the end of my post as an afterthought)

Nothing to take personally :)

I agree.. consumers could and should take far greater responsibility.. but some of those consumers are just not that well equipped to deal with life's little challenges whether due to age, experience, intelligence, disability, or just plain carelessness.As I said, parents need to shoulder responsibility for their younglings, but business's that sell and promote gambling tools and mechanics should be brought to task, especially when it can be seen to be preying on those not so well equipped.Its not a one size fits all solution that's for sure and it's going to take time and effort by all parties.. but it is a growing issue that government's around the world have began to take interest in shall we say.Granted the UK and the US appear to have other more pressing issues, both of which make them look like clowns at the circus politically, but at some point in the future I believe the stats that have been coming out around these issue will gather credence and push for action.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:parents need to shoulder responsibilityThe problem is those are gated behind gemshop RNG.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@"TheAgedGnome.7520" said:Although BLC keys can be bought with real money, they can also be bought with in-game gold (e.g., from farming) converted to gems. So there is no requirement to spend real-world money on keys and chests. (Moreover, there's no requirement to ever open a BLC chest to progress in the game.) It's not clear to me where the line is drawn as to when it is gambling vs. simply exercising a personal preference to spend real-world money over farming/grinding.

It is not clear where the line is drawn because there is no consensus on where the line should be.

• One side (developers and supporters) say that LB's are not gambling because there is always something in each box. Thus, they say, LB's should not be regulated as gambling.
• Another side (legislative opponents, etc.) are drawing their line based on the idea that the psychological ramifications of gambling are every bit as present in LB use as they are in nearly-universally recognized gambling games. The psychological issues are rooted in physiology, with the dopamine response which often accompanies "gambles." Other psychological factors such as the sunk-cost fallacy and the gambler's fallacy are also referenced by this "side."

There are other takes, as well. Draw the line where you want. Your line may be as good as anyone else's.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:parents need to

shoulder

responsibilityThe problem is those are gated behind gemshop RNG.

Ilc.. attempting humour... this is a great day :)

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:parents need to

shoulder

responsibilityThe problem is those are gated behind gemshop RNG.

Ilc.. attempting humour... this is a great day :)

He meant the parents... :smile:

[Cobrakon.3108]

Anet cant appease everyone. There are three main ways to release items that will be unique and not everyone has: RNG, high price, and Difficult game play. People will complain about all 3. The best thing is to move on and accept the fact that we cant get everything we want.

I think there could be some tweaks, but i think its normal to have rare items that not everyone gets.

[Drecien.4508]

It took me 46 keys to get them.

[Davion Roth.6709]

75 keys so far and NOPE...what a crock of shit.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Davion Roth.6709" said:75 keys so far and NOPE...what a crock of kitten.

75 keys is probably an unrealistic amount to pin your hopes on. Roughly 10 out of 100 keys result in an uncommon or rare drop, the exalted shoulders are from the uncommon category, and there are 20 possible options within that category alone. If the odds are even for each uncommon, then the rate is probably something like 1:200 overall. If that's accurate, then there's roughly a 31% chance that you'd get the unlock from "just" 75 keys.

Another possibility is that of uncommon drops, the rate is 1-in-5 (five types of uncommon drops, each equal), which seems unrealistic. If it were so, then the overall rate is 1:50. With those odds, the chance that 75 keys grants the unlock is 78%. That's much higher, but not "guaranteed."

Or in other words, it's still a lottery: most people will get nothing of interest, someone you don't know will win the jackpot, and a tiny group will get some of the more compelling drops.

My advice remains: buy keys only if you actually enjoy the anticipation of opening. Do not buy them with any expectation of getting anything better than a transmute charge with a single-use vendor.

[Vrath.1754]

I'll be honest I had good luck 5 keys, 2 rares the last one was the shoulders. I didnt even really want them but thats probably the best approach so your not disappointed.I just save up my black lion statues till they come around.

[mauried.5608]

What makes a skin "cool", or indeed any other items "cool"?The main reason is usually that I have got it and you havnt.When everyone in the game has the same things they arnt cool any more.So cool things have to be restricted in some way so that the rate of introduction of them into the game is very slow.Legendary weapons are a good example as they take a long time to make, but this doesnt work for skins as they arnt craftable.So the only way to restrict the rate of introduction of "cool" items is to gate them behind the RNG, or somehow make them extremely hard to get.Im open to other methods of making cool items hard to get that doesnt involve the RNG.

[kharmin.7683]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Hydra staff was on blc.Exalted gloves were on blc.Svanir gloves were on blc.Dragon longbow was on dlcDesert throne was on blc.How is this any different, this time?

They keep doing it, and we’ll complain they keep doing it.

-anet makes a nice skin-playerbase wants to buy said skin-anet puts it in a loot-playerbase doesn’t want to roll lootboxes, they just want to pay anet the money and receive the item-anet ignores playerbase and makes more nice skins, and put nice skins into loot boxes-playerbase create another thread on the topic-the perpetual cycle continues

In the end, to me it feels like “anet doesn’t want my money. If anet wanted my money, they would’ve sold it to me.Instead, they put it somewhere no one wants to go.”

No offense, but I find this to be a narrow view. Of course ANet wants the customers' money. They have all of the metrics on their customers' spending habits and must realize that they will get more money by making the players purchase keys rather than a one-time purchase for a skin. Clearly, spending money for BLC keys is a place many players want to go or else ANet would find a different mechanism to earn cash.

[Ashen.2907]

@"mauried.5608" said:What makes a skin "cool", or indeed any other items "cool"?The main reason is usually that I have got it and you havnt.When everyone in the game has the same things they arnt cool any more.So cool things have to be restricted in some way so that the rate of introduction of them into the game is very slow.Legendary weapons are a good example as they take a long time to make, but this doesnt work for skins as they arnt craftable.So the only way to restrict the rate of introduction of "cool" items is to gate them behind the RNG, or somehow make them extremely hard to get.Im open to other methods of making cool items hard to get that doesnt involve the RNG.

I suppose that it varies. Usually what makes a skin cool to me is how it looks. The number of other people who have it does not change my desire for the skin. But, sometimes, rarity can increase the cool fac5or of something I already like.

[mauried.5608]

For a game that doesnt have a monthly sub, there has to be a mechanism for achieveing the same outcome, and its far better for Anet to implement a system that generates a continuous cashflow such as selling keys for loot boxes, than selling skins which players will only buy rarely.The best things to sell in the gem store are items that dont last, but are needed on a continuous basis.eg items like repair canisters, revive orbs , black lion merchants, BLC keys etc.All these types of items are use once and they are gone, and then you have to buy some more.Some players wont feel the need to buy any of them , and by the reasoning some players wont need to buy any skins either, as they are all discressionary purchases.None are needed to play the game.

[Celsith.2753]

@kharmin.7683 said:

No offense, but I find this to be a narrow view. Of course ANet wants the customers' money. They have all of the metrics on their customers' spending habits and must realize that they will get more money by making the players purchase keys rather than a one-time purchase for a skin. Clearly, spending money for BLC keys is a place many players want to go or else ANet would find a different mechanism to earn cash.

Whilst I agree to a large extent I have to wonder, how do you accurately gauge either way? There really isn't a way to determine if more of the player base would outright buy one particular item, without testing that individual item as both rng and an outright purchase. Which isnt possible because some would be trying the first method they offered but would also use the second. There's some things I will try keys for and others I wont, but would have bought outright. Generally the more expensive something is to purchase, the more likely I am to rng box it.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:

They keep doing it, and we’ll complain they keep doing it.

-anet makes a nice skin-playerbase wants to buy said skin-anet puts it in a loot-playerbase doesn’t want to roll lootboxes, they just want to pay anet the money and receive the item-anet ignores playerbase and makes more nice skins, and put nice skins into loot boxes-playerbase create another thread on the topic-the perpetual cycle continues

In the end, to me it feels like “anet doesn’t want my money. If anet wanted my money, they would’ve sold it to me.Instead, they put it somewhere no one wants to go.”

No offense, but I find this to be a narrow view. Of course ANet wants the customers' money. They have all of the metrics on their customers' spending habits and must realize that they will get more money by making the players purchase keys rather than a one-time purchase for a skin. Clearly, spending money for BLC keys is a place many players want to go or else ANet would find a different mechanism to earn cash.

Do players want to go there, or do they go there because that's where ANet puts the skin they want?

If it took 50 keys, that would be 4200 gems, over $50 US. If it took 100 keys to get a skin, that would be 8400 gems, more than $100 US. Are the Exalted Shoulders worth more than the game? Would players buy a skin they want if it were priced at, say, 4000 gems? Sure, some might. Others would not.

A random price for that skin gives the impression that players might spend as little as 125 gems. It may even work out that way once in a while. However -- and this is what ANet metrics will tell them -- the average is going to work out to a sum higher than that skin would support if sold straight up.

So, yeah, players go there because they've "got" to have that skin. Sell that skin for a fair price, and they'd want to go there, instead.

[Nefara.2186]

I absolutely hate account bound RNG stuff but if it ends up available from the vendor for statuettes then that's tolerable. I'm patient. If it doesn't end up there though, let's riot.

[Excursion.9752]

I think they should leave the BLC alone and also have the skins available for sale for gems outright a decent cost. That way its the best of both worlds. The people who use keys MAY get it for less and the people who don't want to deal with RNG can get it without the fuss. They did that with a few mount skins why not everything?

[titje.2745]

i saw the skin today and i thought omg a nice skin i want it, i spend 144 gold on 5 keys but not a single 5th slot, i got mad, every nice skin is behind rng. i have opened 20+ chests since beginning 2018 and all the chests not a single 5th slot. sure i want to support anet but then i want the skin for 10 euro max and i dont want to gamble with real money on keys, real money is for upgrades and not to waste. 144 gold is much for me, now i have to play the tp few weeks again for that gold.i dont do key run every week because i never get the extra slot its not motivating, and i know myself i dont want to get disappointed or angry so i avoid the keyrun because i know i dont get rewarded. i hope the skin comes fast to the stattues because its very nice skin. long ago that there is an item that i wanted so bad.

someone else metioned it but i dont quote the whole text, but if skins are 5 euro each (400 gems) i think i often buy gems with ingame shop for skins. because skins with keys i always avoid, till today but regret it.