Scrapper

LazySummer.2568 · March 8, 2019

@apharma.3741 said:I'm waiting for the scrapper rant video, I mean a lot of the skills are massively overloaded if you pick all the traits like in the mirage rant video....

I doubt that'll happen because a certain popular streamer that rant about mirages is an engi main....

Fortus.6175 · March 8, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@"whoknocks.4935" said:
You see that in bronze league and the first week after balance is always a mess.

I'm seeing that in platinum.

It's also real cute how you keep saying "yeah, I'm sure you do in bronze." multiple times now.

I love how people dismiss many arguments by saying "you must be in bronze/silver" or by saying "good players XYZ....." , yet these people are the first ones to never post their ranks or anything like that. Personally I figured I might as well share my rank to stop this stuff from happening. People dont realize that there is barely any difference between silver/gold/plat in terms of builds, i see all kind of random builds all over the place, heck, I play staff ele and made it to rank 88 last season and have made it legendary twice before, and right now Im in plat 1 playing almost exclusively glass cannon/support staff ele.

(last season): https://imgur.com/YMl0cXZ(this season so far after a loooong break): https://imgur.com/fBhyMyb

I believe the real difference between different ranks isnt on builds, it is on minimap awareness, map rotations and teamplay . Every season I make it to P1-P2 playing the weirdest of builds, however, when I play meta I can get there in a single day, builds should only make it so that it takes longer in general to reach a rank.

However, in my personal opinion, right now we still have some over-performing (key is overtuned, not out-right "OP do-it-all", just exponentially better than others in 1 or more aspects) , classes and classes combo

-Soulbeast, scrapper, holo, spellbreaker, staff mirage, sw/d thieves, and FB + scourage combo.

These need to be looked at, because they completely change the game beyond just knowing map rotations. Their builds can carry players with low knowledge of map rotations and playing as a team, their builds are inherently strong, allowing players to reach ranks which otherwise they would not reach. I have tested it myself even with barely any knowledge on the builds, and it defeats the purpose of mastering a class and honing your map mov rotations.

Master Ketsu.4569 · March 8, 2019

The #1 culprit that I see from playing it myself is bulwark gyro in a 1vX scenario.

Anet seemed to want this skill to give tons of barrier in exchange for taking damage for your team. Problem is, if you are just side noding 1 vs whatever the "downside" doesn't exist and this skill effectively becomes 8-10k of barrier on a 20s cd which is completely insane.

It should only grant additional barrier if you actually have teammates nearby, and still less barrier overall. Making this skill give the best of both worlds means scrapper gets to function as both support and a 1vX noder, which is a bit much.

Another problem is that the redesign to make them wells has resulted in making Scrapper require absolutely zero skill to play. Any scrub can sit on the point with bulwark, spam rotations like a monkey, and sustain themselves against top 100 ranked players. IMO it deserves a nerf on this principle alone.

Captain Swag.5893 · March 9, 2019

It's funny to me how this conversation has steered so far away from constructive criticism or ideas to changes and has devolved to an epeen measuring contest. :s

titibalbon.7495 · March 9, 2019

Just nerf this dumpster spec back into the ground. The game was so much better when mesmers were meta.

mortrialus.3062 · March 9, 2019

@Fortus.6175 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@"whoknocks.4935" said:
You see that in bronze league and the first week after balance is always a mess.

I'm seeing that in platinum.

It's also real cute how you keep saying "yeah, I'm sure you do in bronze." multiple times now.

I love how people dismiss many arguments by saying "you must be in bronze/silver" or by saying "good players XYZ....." , yet these people are the first ones to never post their ranks or anything like that. Personally I figured I might as well share my rank to stop this stuff from happening. People dont realize that there is barely any difference between silver/gold/plat in terms of builds, i see all kind of random builds all over the place, heck, I play staff ele and made it to rank 88 last season and have made it legendary twice before, and right now Im in plat 1 playing almost exclusively glass cannon/support staff ele.

(last season):

https://imgur.com/YMl0cXZ

(this season so far after a loooong break):

https://imgur.com/fBhyMyb

I believe the real difference between different ranks isnt on builds, it is on minimap awareness, map rotations and teamplay

. Every season I make it to P1-P2 playing the weirdest of builds, however, when I play meta I can get there in a single day, builds should only make it so that it takes longer in general to reach a rank.

However, in my personal opinion, right now we still have some over-performing (key is overtuned, not out-right "OP do-it-all", just

exponentially

better than others in 1 or more aspects) , classes and classes combo

-Soulbeast, scrapper, holo, spellbreaker, staff mirage, sw/d thieves, and FB + scourage combo.

These need to be looked at, because they completely change the game beyond just knowing map rotations. Their builds can carry players with low knowledge of map rotations and playing as a team, their builds are inherently strong, allowing players to reach ranks which otherwise they would not reach. I have tested it myself even with barely any knowledge on the builds, and it defeats the purpose of mastering a class and honing your map mov rotations.

Oh hey I'm in the match you posted from last season lol.

BlackTruth.6813 · March 9, 2019

@Chaith.8256 said:
@"BlackTruth.6813" said:WOW holy so this build has the potential to give your team a pseudo-endure pain (10k effective hp from barrier and transfer damage to gyro, literally revenant dwarf but better), ridiculous team cleanse that converts conditions into boons, could probably even use Elixir X and has a "decent" amount of stability. With the right build you could probably delay a 1v3 and beat most "glass cannon builds"
For a "bunker" this baits dodges and stun breaks VERY EASILY. Chain CC doesn't counter it, condi bomb doesn't really counter it, burst damage? HELL NO. WTH ANET?
This looks broken this looks like d/d ele 3.0 but a lot worse. Tried it out once and It actually already feels aids

Uh.. pardon me? The barrier only goes on the Engineer. You don't give your teammates barrier in any fashion at all. Maybe wait a little bit before further commentary

My apologies, I just dove straight into pvp with a couple of matches and didn't bother to read the skill description.

Tho I still think scrapper will need a shave. Superspeed, healing, synergy with sanctuary runes, barrier, one of those will need to get touched. At least scrapper isn't as bad a Mirage, so a shave should be fine.

Dr Meta.3158 · March 9, 2019

@"Etaoin.4362" said:I'm going to regret jumping into this, but what the hell?
1) You can't "fix" Bulwark Gyro through scaling based on teammates. The bulk of the barrier is given at onset, so if you're alone at this point and get a reduced barrier, then have your teammates sharing with you while getting spiked, you can actually end up taking more damage than mitigating it since the scrapper (not the gyro) absorbs damage on behalf of teammates now. No, this would not make it more interesting as a "risk-reward" skill, it would just be a coding nightmare that could actually break the skill (which, for the record, is apparently already bugged to treat some elements like siege equipment and fortifications as allies). A better solution might be to alter how the skill scales with something like healing power, but then my guess is most scrappers would shift to a mid-support role and people would just complain about that instead. A third alternative would just be to make the gyro a flat damage reduction across the board (akin to something like Dwarf Stance), but I fail to see how that substantially differs from the current barrier.
2) Decrying this particular scrapper build as unfair while you have other professions capable of running similar setups (e.g., weaver, scourge, etc.) is strangely inconsistent. Note, I am not saying that they are the same, but they are relevantly similar with regard to what I assume is the core of the complaint, namely sustainability. For example, yes, scrapper has more mitigation options than, say, scourge, but scourge has much more offensive utility and should be able to do things like force a player (even a scrapper) off point if played decently. Weaver, on the other hand, has a lower health pool, but access to a greater variety of skills to alter the nature of a given engagement. There are also other sorts of bunker/bruiser builds that don't rely on tools like barrier (FB immediately comes to mind), but hopefully the point has been made.
3) Despite what some folks seem to believe, scrapper actually has fairly limited mobility options. Unless the scrapper is willing to waste a Rocket Leap, it isn't going to be traveling between nodes particularly quickly. Super speed is still slower than teleport skills. This means their primary utility will either be sitting on a side node or supporting at mid; seldom (if ever) will they be able to easily transition between roles (contrast with the old chrono bunker or druids). As noted, there are already plenty of other builds that can stall on side nodes; if on mid, bait the Bulwark Gyro (it only lasts five seconds) and then either try to spike the team down with coordinated AoE (they have to be near the scrapper to get the barrier and damage reduction) or pick off weaker opponents out of support range.
4) While the scrapper is hard to kill, (a) this has always been the case, and (b) there are solid checks to it. Stalemating with something like a warrior or revenant ensures that the scrapper will have skills on cool-down regularly. At that point, you should be able to +1 the fight and de- or full-cap the node as the scrapper retreats/recovers (power mirage and several thief builds get particular shout-outs here due to their utility and mobility). Scourges are also helpful here, as their area-denial limits the scrapper's options in avoiding condition damage and boon corruption, but they are a slower option in terms of movement speed.
5) This doesn't apply to everyone in this thread, but my guess is that it applies to many: your problem isn't actually with scrapper, it's with the way you can stack a team to have multiple bunkers/supports.

Honestly, this guy is the one who made a post with any sense to it in this entire thread. +1 to you.

ChillyKoti.1928 · March 9, 2019

@titibalbon.7495 said:Just nerf this dumpster spec back into the ground. The game was so much better when mesmers were meta.

Oh no, no no no no no no no nononononono

zinkz.7045 · March 9, 2019

Hi, I is GW2 player in 2019, I is herp derper, I blow shit up, if I can't blow shit up, me get upset.

bbop.9706 · March 9, 2019

leave scrapper alone. The buzz will die off and people will continue moaning about the true OP proffs.

The change has actually given warriors and necros a chance and pushed mesmers out a bit.

That said, nerf EVERYTHING.

The only way to achieve balance is to stop trying to balance by buffing whack-a-mole style and start again from scratch.

trixantea.1230 · March 9, 2019

There must alwasy be an overpowered class.

Stand The Wall.6987 · March 9, 2019

bah let scrappers be op for a lil bit ya crybabies.

Ario.8964 · March 9, 2019

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:bah let scrappers be op for a lil bit ya crybabies.

Works out well for me, I just rev into that shit and ez game.

Fortus.6175 · March 9, 2019

@"trixantea.1230" said:There must alwasy be an overpowered class.

There will always be a top and a bottom in any spectrum, nobody denies that, however, what matter is how much they deviate from the closest cluster of builds or single build, example, this hypothetical spectrum: (each build/class = |)

X= outlier on the lowest end of spectrum, UP, weakest but too many std deviations aways from medianY= Median, where most builds fall, in theory all builds should fall here, there are differences in power, but all are viable and can run together agaisnt each other.Z=Outlier on the other end of the spectrum, these builds are significantly stronger than the median by more than a few std deviations, overshadowing other builds or outright replacing them if the median builds cant compete agaisnt them, creating meta defining checkpoints. Ideally you want none in X or Z, most people disagree on their personal rating, however, when there is large consensus agaisnt a build where mostly people who play said build defend it (there will still be people who dont play it who defend it, but usually it's due to playing unorthodox/non popular builds who either can "manage" or do "fine" agaisnt said builds) then perhaps it is time to look into it. Even if said build is not OP on win rate or other numbers, certain frustrating aspects from poorly designed mechanics can create situations that are not conductive to enjoyment of the mode. A yes, nobody likes dying, nobody likes losing, but sometimes its more about how those happen, than it happening at all, otherwise nobody would ever play a game where you can lose. Competitive nature of people is about winning, no matter what, even if it means playing things they might not enjoy, or hate playing agaisnt, and the recent surge of scrappers is one of those indications, same for soulbeasts, mirages, spellbreakers and holos respectively. Or the lack of elementalist from playing agaisnt them, with them and as them.

Hope that helps!

whoknocks.4935 · March 9, 2019

Nerf scrapper so boonbeasts, holosmiths and mirages can go back to dominate pvp again for another 3 months.

Iozeph.5617 · March 9, 2019

@rng.1024 said:
@NaiveBayes.2587 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@"Bort.8647" said:How to fix scrapper
make bulwark gyro give barrier depending on how many allies are present. So when scrappers are by themselves, they get around 1/5 the barrier.
make sneak gyro smoke field visible to enemies, and if allies leave the combo field they are revealed. Also increase the cooldown to at least 60 seconds (which is the cooldown of shadow refuge)

Purge Gyro needs a better tell. The actual gyro sprite is impossible to see in the heat of battle with tons of effects everywhere. It needs a display on the scrappers status bar like Soulbeast and warrior stances so you can see "Oh I shouldn't attack right now."

I like these sets of suggested changes, I'd also reduce the duration of superspeed from shocking speed

OR

shave a bit off the base heal on rapid regeneration.

I was excited to play scrapper again because I don't really like prot Holo but I do want a bunker option as an engineer but atm scrapper feels a bit dirty to play and when I queue as an engineer I always face at least 1 scrapper but mostly 2 + another bunker build (not rare to see a whole team of bunkers) on enemy team so they can pretty much lock down all 3 caps since no one has a solution to them yet or our team rarely has a comp that can deal with so many bunkers.

It feels like I'm gimping my team by queueing as an engineer but not playing a bunker scrapper so I'll probably give the rest of the season a miss.

Yeah making the traited superspeed 3 seconds and the rapid regen value for superspeed to be 2× that of swiftness would go a long way (even let them stack as 1 of the effects can be ripped/corrupted).

Then if we remove half of the base barrier values (since scrapper has a minor trait that increases them)
Give funtion gyro a UI icon like Signet of Mercy when off cooldown, share that cooldown for both ressing and stomping meaning choices has to be made
Adjust Sneak Gyro to pulse 5 times instead of 6, for 2 seconds instead of 3 seconds each pulse, the stealth confined to the radius of the field (plus an added combo finisher radius if you blast near the edge) and add a priority blast at the end like Blast Gyro does now. That's 13 seconds of stealth without any additional blasts, on a 45 sec cooldown.
While we're at it make Blast Gyro not a prioritized blast, so it can be better utilized with the other gyro fields, and instead add 1 extra might to each pulse.
Change Adaptive Armor to lengthen barrier uptime by 2 seconds instead, and remove the passive barrier gain to make up for the loss of sustain these changes would make. Keep the -20% condition damage.
Remove the waterfield on heal gyro's tool belt skill and just let it pulse PbAoE protection with an interruptable channel We can already see when kits are being used, this way you only have to look at which combo field is present to see which gyro is up.
Make Hammer 4 instead give a single packet of ~3k barrier only if it blocks an attack, since barrier sources would be reduced

This would make scrapper a whole lot more enjoyable to fight, and it would still be in a good place when built for it.

Of course these changes would make Scrapper more enjoyable to fight, for everbody but the scrapper, because they still don't put out enough damage to threaten anybody as things currently stand. Only time they do is when adding on to a fight already in progress, but you could say that for anybody.

Function gyro is still a joke to use as it is now and you want to remove half of the viability of even that. Hard choices. Pfft.

Those suggestions for barrier make it useless because a thicker barrier is what's needed against burst. Having a thinner barrier there an extra couple seconds doesn't matter if it's just going to be chopped away in quick fashion. What we have right now actually saves us against people still holding on to headbutt burst and similar builds as crutches and it's upset them because they now(finally) have to come up with something else. Equip a hammer again. Use more interrupts beyond the headbutt to give you the time to cut them apart. But if you still don't want to do that why not push instead(still and again) for hundred blades to be made usable when mobile?

Adding more might to the gyro when there's plenty of boon stripping is another throw away. The might currently there is just seasoning. Adding more just gives another stack to whatever condition it's going to be corrupted into. Thanks for that.

If people feel they're gimping their team by playing engineer(not holo) it's because they probably are on average, barring a few exceptional players. You tone down the defence on Scrapper as it currently is then there's once again no point to playing it, because, again, if fully geared and traited for group support it has no way of pressuring other players beyond teaming up with another player who probably didn;t need that survivability boost before hand. So in the end the damage just isn't there. The hammer's still wonky to use, it's easily kiteable.

If players on both sides are willing to slow their matches down by being scrapper heavy on either side that's their lookout. It's a choice being made by them, either for the novelty, or perhaps with the specific intent of seeing this spec once more put down into gutter tier. Nobody's done that to mesmers. Why are we being singled out again?

There's still plenty of professions out there capable of going bunker right now, whether by gearing, slotted abilities, or both who are still quite capable of putting out enough damage to down enemy players. Why don't we take away some of their survivability too since it seems what's being called for here are easier takedowns and quicker matches overall? Why not? Because it would ruin them, obviously, and that's not an invalid concern.

But what I'm taking away from this is that the community isn't willing to leave Scrapper to this defencive niche, but they also aren't willing give it the necessary gap closers to keep them on target without the gyros and the necessary burst to bring down players when they manage that. Hammer is still just a defencive weapon. If the aim is that a majority of the scrapper's bar should be dedicated just to catching a player up only to be toothless and defenceless once they do then what's the point to having this discussion?

Don't fault the engineer community here either. It's not our fault that ANet, rather than keeping core competitive, rather than coming up with something unique for our second elite, instead decided to double down and make Holosmith the melee powerhouse that Scrapper should have been all along. I'd hardly call a bunker unable to down anybody save for a bad player on an even worse day a good place to be.

Instead of trying to take the easy way out and have us nerfed yet again spend some time coming up with some comps that'll destroy scrappers as they are right now- even multiples. You might not have a team equipped to handle any eventuality anymore but that might shake things up and be healthier for the mode in the long run.

rng.1024 · March 10, 2019

@Iozeph.5617 said:
@rng.1024 said:
@NaiveBayes.2587 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@"Bort.8647" said:How to fix scrapper
make bulwark gyro give barrier depending on how many allies are present. So when scrappers are by themselves, they get around 1/5 the barrier.
make sneak gyro smoke field visible to enemies, and if allies leave the combo field they are revealed. Also increase the cooldown to at least 60 seconds (which is the cooldown of shadow refuge)