The First Sin of WvW Balance - Lack of "An Equal Playing Field" (Important)

[Optimator.3589]

@Loosmaster.8263 said:Maybe we should have a gear rental NPC...

And the fees for rented gear get distributed amongst those who actually work for their gear.

[Queen Anastasia.7103]

lol I looked at the size of the scroll bar and just knew.... these amulet threads are getting more and more intensely sneaky. That amount of commitment is truly bizarre.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

best way to balance this mode would be to redistribute the aoe cap so smaller groups can take out bigger ones. population would cease to matter.

oh and a pvp amulet system would not fix anything since the problem is ez 25 might and +damage modifiers.

[Voltekka.2375]

This again, huh. Bud, if the game seems too grindy for ya, try another game. If you want to "stay meta" make leggy wvw armor. But no. This - and the plethora of similar posts- want free shinies.

[Skotlex.7580]

Well, to be frank, OP isn't directly endorsing the amulet system, even if that would be the quickest way to get their equal opportunity balance they so much want.

The complain has to do with how gear stat acquisition in WvW is tied to PvE, and some combinations take extremely longer than others to acquire.

For instance, I can't just "dabble in WvW"and decide to roll a minstrel firebrand, as acquiring said gear combination takes time and money. And if I end up not liking it?

Not having the freedom to gear up and try different builds without said barriers to change makes it more difficult for players to try new things, or to adapt to game changes. How many players didn't felt forced to grind the latest map to "upgrade" their builds to diviner?

If we are talking about WvW mains, it must be really annoying being forced to PvE (extensively at times) to acquire the build one desires. And I am guessing that's the crux of OP's complain.

[Voltekka.2375]

@"Skotlex.7580" said:Well, to be frank, OP isn't directly endorsing the amulet system, even if that would be the quickest way to get their equal opportunity balance they so much want.

The complain has to do with how gear stat acquisition in WvW is tied to PvE, and some combinations take extremely longer than others to acquire.

For instance, I can't just "dabble in WvW"and decide to roll a minstrel firebrand, as acquiring said gear combination takes time and money. And if I end up not liking it?

Not having the freedom to gear up and try different builds without said barriers to change makes it more difficult for players to try new things, or to adapt to game changes. How many players didn't felt forced to grind the latest map to "upgrade" their builds to diviner?

If we are talking about WvW mains, it must be really annoying being forced to PvE (extensively at times) to acquire the build one desires. And I am guessing that's the crux of OP's complain.

You "dabble" in wvw, but want meta build? Be prepared to do wvw for it, then. 6 exotic armor boxes plus ascended trinkets from living story reward tracks plus runes from dungeon reward track, means you WONT HAVE to set foot in pve. Anything else?

[alain.1659]

Can this topic also include the discussion of mounts being locked behind PoF? If you are going to talk about an even playing field and even opportunities, then you should also discuss the latest mount release and how they are only given to players who have PoF. As it is a huge advantage (in every post people talk about how it balances the zergers vs roamers) it should not be locked behind the expansion. Lets discuss this before the amulet-stat system which can actually be compensated by doing pve or doing wvw and getting enough money. But mount problem cannot. No PoF, no mount. Here is the biggest lack of equal playing field.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@"alain.1659" said:Can this topic also include the discussion of mounts being locked behind PoF? If you are going to talk about an even playing field and even opportunities, then you should also discuss the latest mount release and how they are only given to players who have PoF. As it is a huge advantage (in every post people talk about how it balances the zergers vs roamers) it should not be locked behind the expansion. Lets discuss this before the amulet-stat system which can actually be compensated by doing pve or doing wvw and getting enough money. But mount problem cannot. No PoF, no mount. Here is the biggest lack of equal playing field.

Answered.

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:The point of the WvW mount was to sell skins and get F2P/HoT only WvW players to finally pony up the cash for Path of Fire.

That's it.

Not to save WvW. Not even alliances will do that. Too little, and far too late.

[schloumou.3982]

Not taking sides or anything, but no one actually mentions an advantage of having a gear based system besides flexibility. But in reality this is not a feature of gear but rather the opposite.So what if you would implement a mechanic that allows players to just freely select the stats of every slot from all available combinations?You would be way more flexible in build crafting and the playing field would be even. Any downsides I am missing?

[alain.1659]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"alain.1659" said:Can this topic also include the discussion of mounts being locked behind PoF? If you are going to talk about an even playing field and even opportunities, then you should also discuss the latest mount release and how they are only given to players who have PoF. As it is a huge advantage (in every post people talk about how it balances the zergers vs roamers) it should not be locked behind the expansion. Lets discuss this before the amulet-stat system which can actually be compensated by doing pve or doing wvw and getting enough money. But mount problem cannot. No PoF, no mount. Here is the biggest lack of equal playing field.

Answered.

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:The point of the WvW mount was to sell skins and

get F2P/HoT only WvW players to finally pony up the cash for Path of Fire.

That's it.

Not to save WvW. Not even alliances will do that. Too little, and far too late.

So what they do is to let non-PoF players leave the wvw mode. Well you are not wrong, this is typical Anet. I hope they can see their errors and do something about it after all these discussions. Instead of giving a good balance they are unbalancing the game against HoT and F2P players.

[alain.1659]

@schloumou.3982 said:Not taking sides or anything, but no one actually mentions an advantage of having a gear based system besides flexibility. But in reality this is not a feature of gear but rather the opposite.So what if you would implement a mechanic that allows players to just freely select the the stats of every slot from all available combinations?You would be way more flexible in build crafting and the playing field would be even. Any downsides I am missing?

If they would give us the ability to select from all possible stat-rune-sigil etc combinations that would be ok for me. But I do not think that would happen in any time soon.

[shiri.4257]

Opinions aside for the moment... Let me ask you simply:

Do you want to be on "an equal playing field" for balance. Yes or No? And why?

Yes i want to be on an equal playing field for balance. And yes it is currently and equal playing field and balance. Do you have access to the same gear that I have? yes. so how is that not balanced?

[Whiteout.1975]

@"Skotlex.7580" said:Well, to be frank, OP isn't directly endorsing the amulet system, even if that would be the quickest way to get their equal opportunity balance they so much want.

The complain has to do with how gear stat acquisition in WvW is tied to PvE, and some combinations take extremely longer than others to acquire.

For instance, I can't just "dabble in WvW"and decide to roll a minstrel firebrand, as acquiring said gear combination takes time and money. And if I end up not liking it?

Not having the freedom to gear up and try different builds without said barriers to change makes it more difficult for players to try new things, or to adapt to game changes. How many players didn't felt forced to grind the latest map to "upgrade" their builds to diviner?

If we are talking about WvW mains, it must be really annoying being forced to PvE (extensively at times) to acquire the build one desires. And I am guessing that's the crux of OP's complain.

This Person Actually Understands

If this was a game of reading comprehension skills. Then you would have just beat that game B)

[Whiteout.1975]

@alain.1659 said:Can this topic also include the discussion of mounts being locked behind PoF? If you are going to talk about an even playing field and even opportunities, then you should also discuss the latest mount release and how they are only given to players who have PoF. As it is a huge advantage (in every post people talk about how it balances the zergers vs roamers) it should not be locked behind the expansion. Lets discuss this before the amulet-stat system which can actually be compensated by doing pve or doing wvw and getting enough money. But mount problem cannot. No PoF, no mount. Here is the biggest lack of equal playing field.

Thought about it before. And Yes it could. Though, I started typing this is my spare time before mounts and I figured mounts were too new. So I wanted to see what would happen with them after a decent period of time in fairness.

Also, I figured it would be hard to talk about Gear and Mounts at the same time. Mounts will probably need their own post/space to get clearer responses regarding just them :)

[Whiteout.1975]

@schloumou.3982 said:Not taking sides or anything, but no one actually mentions an advantage of having a gear based system besides flexibility. But in reality this is not a feature of gear but rather the opposite.So what if you would implement a mechanic that allows players to just freely select the stats of every slot from all available combinations?You would be way more flexible in build crafting and the playing field would be even. Any downsides I am missing?

Exactly. 100% You get it.

[DemonSeed.3528]

If I can pick any stat for any piece with no limitation, sure why not. No need for a legendary from there on out (or asc). I wouldn't even need to get warbringer.

[Whiteout.1975]

@"DemonSeed.3528" said:If I can pick any stat for any piece with no limitation, sure why not. No need for a legendary from there on out (or asc). I wouldn't even need to get warbringer.

Yea right? You could just play the game and have fun. No Worries about what build(s) you want or having to make it/them for "x" professions. Some professions with probably more that at least 1 viable build, as usual.

If people wanna grind for looks, that, I can totally understand because looks aren't necessary. How we experience playing the game is.

[Justine.6351]

Just run exotic gear and swap it out for ascended gear as you acquire it.

[Whiteout.1975]

@Justine.6351 said:Just run exotic gear and swap it out for ascended gear as you acquire it.

Thanks for the tip. I do this. I would like to play 7 professions of the 9... this includes everything, but Ranger and Warrior. Though, this means 7 builds initially and if I want 2 per profession. Now We are looking at 14 builds. I've done this grind as far as I could before and it's insane to get the gold for. Most of the popular builds tend to be the most expensive. About 2 months ago or so I spent. Between 125-150 gold on a Power Shatter Mesmer build (my main). Consisting of Berserker, Valk's and Maruader's. And that was to convert from previously stated ascended. To do something very similar for 6 more professions is extremely time gated and stressful.

Also had this Celestial guard build I wanted to try, without going into to too much detail. The Fact that it was Celestial, means that it was pretty much straight up time gated.

It's hard to just have fun when you gotta do that nonsense just to have a chance at fun sadly.

[joneirikb.7506]

In short, I would like stats/gear to be standardized somehow between all players, and it doesn't even have to be the PVP amulet system.

But on the other hand, I also think that the actual gear is the least of balancing problems right now. And that there are plenty of other things that would need to be corrected first, before gear-balance would become very notable.

(AoE's, mass player combat in general, the spam meta, damage stacks/modifiers, way too many invulnerable and other defenses, etc)

[Justine.6351]

@Whiteout.1975 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Just run exotic gear and swap it out for ascended gear as you acquire it.

Thanks for the tip. I do this. I would like to play 7 professions of the 9... this includes everything, but Ranger and Warrior. Though, this means 7 builds initially and if I want 2 per profession. Now We are looking at 14 builds. I've done this grind as far as I could before and it's insane to get the gold for. Most of the popular builds tend to be the most expensive. About 2 months ago or so I spent. Between 125-150 gold on a Power Shatter Mesmer build (my main). Consisting of Berserker, Valk's and Maruader's. And that was to convert from previously stated ascended. To do something very similar for 6 more professions is extremely time gated and stressful.

Also had this Celestial guard build I wanted to try, without going into to too much detail. The Fact that it was Celestial, means that it was pretty much straight up time gated.

It's hard to just have fun when you gotta do that nonsense just to have a chance at fun sadly.

Welcome to mmo gaming. Be thankful we don't have gear treadmills like other such games.

! Spvp exists. And btw it only takes 1-2 months to make celestial gear if you craft it rather than do the smart thing and buy selector gear.

[lodjur.1284]

@"Whiteout.1975" said:(The following is my 2nd Problem with WvW out of my Top 5) (Also, sorry for the length, but felt each part is necessary)

Gear Influences Experience

You know, one thing I really tend to love about games in general... Are the piece's it takes to play them. Now, these of coarse are important, because they Strongly influence mine, yours or anyone's Experience playing the game; outside of just pure skill. Which can ether elicit a Positive or Negative (somewhere in that spectrum) feeling/understanding regarding games. This outcome can easily occur when those pieces are coupled with those various skill sets that us Players, more uniquely possess. As well as our (as Players) processes in the experience's around those pieces (like how to get those pieces). Not just skill alone.However, I want to talk about the in game pieces. More specifically... Gear.Now, how much influence can these various pieces of "Gear" offer? Depends. It really depends on how well the Gear is balanced. Alongside how well the things (like Professions) are being influenced, by Gear, are balanced. Feeding ultimately into each of our own individual experiences.This is important because our "experiences" are how we directly value our time playing the game. Is the experience Good, Bad or somewhere in between?

However, that's Not actually the kinds of balance I wish to talk about here. No... Instead, what I wish to talk about is another balance. Related to Gear and overall balance. I would like to call this..."The Balance of Reasonable Opportunity". Otherwise known as "An Equal Playing Field" (you'll see). That is also in Strong relation to Gear, but involving a focus on "Gear Stats". Including the opportunities it provides towards better ("Good") experiences. Basically, how we go about obtaining our desired Gear Stats. Across our "x" amount of characters. And the Impact that process has, without a shadow of a doubt, onto overall WvW Balance. Thus, again, ultimately "into each of our own individual experiences". Again asking the question we always ask ourselves... "Is the experience Good, Bad or somewhere in between?"

Well, the answer to that question is more or less unique. Firstly, are all of our experiences in obtaining our desired gear stats the same? No, obviously not. If I want to play 7 of the 9 professions (with desired builds) vs. someone who only wants to 2 of the 9. Guess what? I am going to have the experience of having to grind (aka Work...) harder. Than that other player. Simply because I want to try to have fun playing more builds on professions. And that's 1 example. Before we could go into the next extreme. That is, having at least a couple or more viable builds per profession. However you get the point. So the fact of the matter is... The Players that wish to experience/enjoy the game further, on builds. Quite literally, have to pay an absurd amount (aside from time spent), just to be able to experience it.Now initially, this sounds a bit weird and really just counterproductive by limiting that experience. Though, the grind has an end at least... Right? Yes, of course... Legendary's. However, is it Reasonable? That's a BIG "NO". Not for this reason. Why? Simply because it turns Legendary's into a Complete (VERY EXPENSIVE/Time Gated) "MUST HAVE" to play WvW "Stat Worry Free". And to have to do that across "x" professions/builds just to be able to experience WvW "Stat Worry Free" (At least as close we can currently get to it)... is pure insanity & Imbalanced. This is in part, what can make it harder for players to become accustomed to WvW. They have to "Worry" about their experience. The more they wish to explore it. Leading to other experience's (like fights involving overall balance) that they don't even know if they'll even enjoy. And this is primarily, if not Exactly, why People who go for legendary gear... Go for legendary gear. So that they don't have to really "Worry" about being able to play in a manner that they may enjoy. However, still only for the characters that own it/can use it. With far less Stress and Worry. (@Anet, please try to take that near continuous toxic "Worry" away)That said, I'm going to prove all this further with a quote from a link. That will recognize all this and more...

"An Equal Playing Field"

The Link https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP. The Quote is from the "Gear and builds" section reads as follows:

"The attributes, runes, and sigils from a character's PvE equipment are not used in structured PvP maps. Instead, equipment attributes are normalized, and players select a rune set, a sigil set, a PvP-specific amulet, and a set of specializations in the PvP Build panel. This build is maintained separately from the player's normal PvE or WvW build, and is automatically applied whenever a character enters the structured PvP lobby map. This mechanic allows players to be on an equal playing field with the same attributes, skills, and equipment options as other players. Players need to equip chest, legs and foot armor to achieve the base armor value, but hands, shoulders and head may be ignored."

I went ahead and put the main take away there in bold. Which again states:

• "This mechanic allows players to be on an equal playing field with the same attributes, skills, and equipment options as other players".

So the Fact is... WvW does NOT have such a considerate "mechanic". Therefore, we are by no means considered on an "equal playing field", from the moment you or we step into WvW. And every time after. So the next time you or anyone else has any feelings towards the "overall balance" ... Remember, you/I/they weren't even on "an equal playing field" to begin with.And that goes beyond being outnumbered or vice versa.

More Justification as to why this is important... Another Link and another Quote...

"WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode"

This time, taking a quote from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World from under the "Combat" sub-section within the "Mechanics" section reads as follows:

• "WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode. You are rewarded with both loot and Points-Per-Kill (PPK) for killing enemy players."

"First and foremost"... WvW is about the Combat. That Player vs. Player interaction. @Anet, you trivialize that Greatly, by disregarding "an equal playing field" mechanic. As previously discussed. WvW isn't about the Gear Stat Grind... Never was. Again, it's about that Player vs. Player interaction... "First and foremost".

Lastly, for clarity...

• This is post is NOT advocating for specifically an Amulet System. Only a "Mechanic" that would achieve "an equal playing field" in regards to WvW's environment and respect to its Playerbase. Ideas are of coarse welcome.
• Legendary's: This post is NOT meant to undermine efforts towards Legendary's. I believe that there are other mean's (ideas) in which Legendary's could still be very beneficial to players in WvW. Reminder: PvP Players got Legendary's well and long before WvW Players ever did... Yet they cannot make good use of it in PvP because of that environment. Though, I'm willing and would like to hear discussions/idea's around this.
• Economical Impact: Is Not limited to Gear and operates (considering supply/demand) primarily on a "potential to buy/sell" Not a "guaranteed to buy/sell". So it would seem appropriate to discuss where gold could go still... As it could go places now. Also, the Impact (if any) PvP has on the Economy already... Since that is a mode that already bypasses the need for most gear and higher tier gear as is. And to what degree @Anet considers the economy to be bad. Compared to whatever degree (good or bad) it is now. So, by all means... Discuss.
• This post is NOT to undermine any work @Anet has done. Once upon a time there were crafting stations, certain land masses, place-able cannons, no reward tracks etc. that shaped WvW... Now, things are different in (what should be) an effort to strive for better. The "strive" and effort in this post is no different.
• This post IS about the Importance of the Player vs. Player aspect of WvW "First and foremost". And the Lack of "An Equal Playing Field" that trivializes the Balance around it.

To conclude. Firstly, sorry about the length. Tried to make it as short as possible. Secondly, @Anet... Please, in the name of all that is good. Implement "an equal playing field" mechanic in WvW... So that people can more significantly and meaningfully experience what is supposed to be WvW's main Element... The Player vs. Player Combat.

Thank You, for taking the time to read.

P.S. Just like "Alliances" are a "WvW" related attempt at "an equal playing field" regarding numbers. Same should go for the Gear involved in that PvP interaction.

So in short you want amulet system in WvW because people having to farm a couple hours is bad, just no, sorry if this seems reductive but the amulet system in wvw debate has been had about a million times, there's already threads about it.

The difference between exotics and ascended is small. (so you can try in exotics first)

Farming an ascended set is incredibly easy, it's a bit of an effort for completely new players but mainly because jewelry is gained in such a dumb way (locked behind living story)

Amulet system is less flexible

Leveling/hero points takes a total of 5 minutes (15 if you count level up rewards)

Not a single balance issue would be fixed, balance is already assuming full ascended (even tho the balance still sucks)

This would take time/effort away from meaningful changes (this actually would be done by the same team/teams as balance changes and/or fixes)

Even fewer ways to monetize WvW (the people I know who bought gold with gems mostly did it to get into wvw almost instantly after starting the game.

Lastly it's an mmorpg... Some level of gear grinding is kinda expected from the genre, the current level really isn't enough to whine about.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Whiteout.1975 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:Just run exotic gear and swap it out for ascended gear as you acquire it.

Thanks for the tip. I do this. I would like to play 7 professions of the 9... this includes everything, but Ranger and Warrior. Though, this means 7 builds initially and if I want 2 per profession. Now We are looking at 14 builds. I've done this grind as far as I could before and it's insane to get the gold for. Most of the popular builds tend to be the most expensive. About 2 months ago or so I spent. Between 125-150 gold on a Power Shatter Mesmer build (my main). Consisting of Berserker, Valk's and Maruader's. And that was to convert from previously stated ascended. To do something very similar for 6 more professions is extremely time gated and stressful.

Also had this Celestial guard build I wanted to try, without going into to too much detail. The Fact that it was Celestial, means that it was pretty much straight up time gated.

It's hard to just have fun when you gotta do that nonsense just to have a chance at fun sadly.Well, what's so strange about this?

WvW is quite literally a time and money sink. That's what it's supposed to be. It's taken WvW people years to fully equip characters - or at least I know it has for me. I still dont have all characters in ascended, not even close. They're still exotic, and some still on "easier" gear combos over 4 stat metas and some characters have 3+ sets. And it's much easier now than it was a couple of years ago. Much, much easier.

Eventually you'll start to stack up gear anyway. Even with the above situation that I leave as is because it's still effective, I have an entire bank tab full of account bound gear gotten in WvW (10+ ascended chests not opened, 20+ armor chests stacked for rainy days when I want to change builds, wide array of weaponry and armor for builds not used anymore). 2 months is nothing. Come back in a year. You'll have all your favorites on full ascended I'm sure.

[Voltekka.2375]

Why do people think ascended are necessary in wvw? Why do newcomers especially think ascended are essential in the game in general? Only high tier fractals NEED ascended. Rest of the game is easily doable on exotics. And that includes wvw.

[Skotlex.7580]

@Voltekka.2375 said:Why do people think ascended are necessary in wvw? Why do newcomers especially think ascended are essential in the game in general? Only high tier fractals NEED ascended. Rest of the game is easily doable on exotics. And that includes wvw.

Most likely true for armor. I would argue that the difference between exotic and ascended trinkets is enough to make a difference. And the extra strength of ascended weapons might be borderline important.