Will Black Lion Chests be forbidden in the USA?

[castlemanic.3198]

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:Real money randomized reward systems (including ecto gambling because of the gems to gold exchange) should be removed on the basis that children can see it and can be affected by it, whether under parental supervision or not. they are manipulative practices on the whole. GW2 has a ton of things on the gem store and shouldn't be affected majorly by their removal (or adjustment on the mount skin licenses). Alcohol and gambling is already legally legislated to prevent children having access to them, and any game marketed as being playable by anyone under the age of 18 should not have loot boxes or pay to win mechanics. If you want pay to win mechanics or loot boxes you should make your game 18+. Kind of as simple as that. Keep it entirely out of the games that are marketed towards anyone below the age of 18.

Ectogambling doesn't need to be removed. Currency Exchange is the thing that needs to be removed. The Ectogambling itself is relative to the game, the currency exchange is not since it causes a form of pay to win scenario.

I don't know if I necessarily agree but I definitely see the point you're making. I'll have to have a think on it.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:Real money randomized reward systems (including ecto gambling because of the gems to gold exchange) should be removed on the basis that children can see it and can be affected by it, whether under parental supervision or not. they are manipulative practices on the whole. GW2 has a ton of things on the gem store and shouldn't be affected majorly by their removal (or adjustment on the mount skin licenses). Alcohol and gambling is already legally legislated to prevent children having access to them, and any game marketed as being playable by anyone under the age of 18 should not have loot boxes or pay to win mechanics. If you want pay to win mechanics or loot boxes you should make your game 18+. Kind of as simple as that. Keep it entirely out of the games that are marketed towards anyone below the age of 18.

Ectogambling doesn't need to be removed. Currency Exchange is the thing that needs to be removed. The Ectogambling itself is relative to the game, the currency exchange is not since it causes a form of pay to win scenario.

I don't know if I necessarily agree but I definitely see the point you're making. I'll have to have a think on it.

Honestly, even I don't agree with my statement. And the only other plausible solution with currency exchange to prevent something like what I stated is if you can convert gold to gems, but not gems to gold.

I'm just throwing potential work around right now, I have little knowledge on the current economy on the game to warrant a full statement on this.

[kharmin.7683]

@Trise.2865 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:why? I enjoy paid RNG. If you don't like it, why don't you just not buy it?

I'm not talking about me but on behalf of the many teens, adolescents and even adults who lose hundreds or thousands of dollars getting addicted to gambling in games (and on related websites). Gambling can be highly addictive and therefore should not be encouraged, but that's just my opinion.

So, let's ban drugs while we're at it. World-wide. Because there are people in many countries who become addicted to them. Oh, and let's ban TV, too, because people become addicted to that as well. I'm sure we could go on and on with this......

Ah, good old "slippery slope"...

Here's the thing: drugs, alcohol, and even television programming are

already

highly

regulated in the US and other countries. Video games and digital media, by comparison, are not. If a minor even touches a casino's gaming floor, they and anyone with them could be arrested, and heavy fines may be levied against the business. If any adult buys alcohol and gives it to a minor? they can be sent to jail, and the bar or store can be fined or even closed. If a TV broadcast doesn't take responsibility for its content? with Children's programming in particular required to carry messages against vegetative watching? That entire channel can be taken down, with heavy fines against the channel's network, if any. Heck, you need a special permit and an ID just to buy cold medicine anymore. But nobody bats an eye if kids get M-rated games, or games labeled with gambling, lootboxes, alcohol use, etc., etc..

So, you would be ok with a label slapped on GW2 instead of outlawing what appears to be lootbox gambling?

[Zaklex.6308]

One other point everyone is missing, we would have to change the legal definition of gambling as it is written in the Federal Register to even have his law take affect, the way he currently is talking about is the complete opposite of what the U.S. has defined to be gambling.

[Zaklex.6308]

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Really hope this bill doesnt pass. I dont agree with it at all, parents need to watch their kids.

Ok!

Lets make alcohol legal for every age.

„Parents need to watch thier kids“

Realy dude?

Yea, because loot boxes kill tens of thousands of people a year, and injure many more through impairment.

Are you guys really arguing that Loot Boxes aka Gambling for kids should stay allowed?

If yes, im out.

Loot boxes are purchased with RL money. How does said kid get the money to purchase them?

How do kids get the money for alcohol?> @ArchonWing.9480 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Really hope this bill doesnt pass. I dont agree with it at all, parents need to watch their kids.

Ok!

Lets make alcohol legal for every age.

„Parents need to watch thier kids“

Realy dude?

Yea, because loot boxes kill tens of thousands of people a year, and injure many more through impairment.

Are you guys really arguing that Loot Boxes aka Gambling for kids should stay allowed?

No, I'm saying your analogy is terrible.

EDIT: But not just you.

Alcohol destroys lifes.Gambling destroys lifes.

I see 0 difference.

There are reason for laws that protect children.

Saying „ Its 100% in the parents hands“ is plain stupid.

Do you know the legal definition of gambling in the U.S.? If not, I suggest you look it up in the Federal Register, it might surprise you to find out that RNG is not considered gambling as it's defined. Your comments are still ignorant, how do children get alcohol? Because some parent let them...and remember PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, let's not make anyone responsible for themselves anymore, let the government tell me what I can and can not use or put into my body, because obviously I'm incapable of making that decision myself.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Personally I always found parental oversight to be a cop-out. Did you guys not go to public school? By first grade, every single child has learned to sneak around, hide things, and lie to their parents. Hell, my cousins went to juvie (and eventually jail) because they were kleptomaniacs. They would rob their parents wholesale and blow it on drugs. Personally I found there was no restriction my parents could make that I couldn't seamlessly bypass. My brothers and sisters all had forbidden paraphernalia of all different sorts.

Kids have agency, and they're far smarter than what society gives them credit for. The most you can hope for is that all the sage advice you give to them takes root. Sure, you can punish them when they get caught, and you can be "involved" in their life by doing things together with them. But, there is no limit to how stubborn and malicious a kid can be. Trust me, I've seen kids turn on their parents like a cur dog.

---

I've always had mixed feelings on loot boxes. The issue with impulsive, addictive, obsessive, un-tempered personalities is that they're going to get hooked somewhere. It could be the drugs, it could be the alcohol, it could be gambling, it could be sex, it could risk taking behaviors, it could be grinding endlessly in a skinner-box game. We get so focused on the vices they choose, but we forget that they would've just chosen another vice if that one wasn't readily available. I know this because, unfortunately, these traits run in the family.

I can understand the want for regulations, though. Make no mistake: these dime-a-dozen, skinner box, grind fests buried under paywalls... they're meant to take advantage of people. They are designed maliciously. Even here in Vegas the casinos are kind enough to make penny slots for people who want to play on a budget. The casinos don't make you shell out $50 for in-game progress or useless crap. There's no moral folly in wanting to stop this. Likewise, the rampant lootbox model is also terrible game design, and it has been ruining games for awhile now.

[Sarge shot Grif.6450]

Good god we can only hope.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Really hope this bill doesnt pass. I dont agree with it at all, parents need to watch their kids.

Ok!

Lets make alcohol legal for every age.

„Parents need to watch thier kids“

Realy dude?

Yea, because loot boxes kill tens of thousands of people a year, and injure many more through impairment.

Are you guys really arguing that Loot Boxes aka Gambling for kids should stay allowed?

If yes, im out.

Loot boxes are purchased with RL money. How does said kid get the money to purchase them?

How do kids get the money for alcohol?> @ArchonWing.9480 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Really hope this bill doesnt pass. I dont agree with it at all, parents need to watch their kids.

Ok!

Lets make alcohol legal for every age.

„Parents need to watch thier kids“

Realy dude?

Yea, because loot boxes kill tens of thousands of people a year, and injure many more through impairment.

Are you guys really arguing that Loot Boxes aka Gambling for kids should stay allowed?

No, I'm saying your analogy is terrible.

EDIT: But not just you.

Alcohol destroys lifes.Gambling destroys lifes.

I see 0 difference.

There are reason for laws that protect children.

Saying „ Its 100% in the parents hands“ is plain stupid.

Do you know the legal definition of gambling in the U.S.? If not, I suggest you look it up in the Federal Register, it might surprise you to find out that RNG is not considered gambling as it's defined. Your comments are still ignorant, how do children get alcohol? Because some parent let them...and remember PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, let's not make anyone responsible for themselves anymore, let the government tell me what I can and can not use or put into my body, because obviously I'm incapable of making that decision myself.

If Loot Boxes are not consindered Gambling then you know whats wrong with the US.

Let hope it will change.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

Typical early over-reaction and some wishful thinking. Gaming revenue is at all time high, in big part due to MtX, surpassing even Hollywood in growth. Gaming is the most profitable entertainment industry right now and as such, its suits have immense lobbying power, especially in the US. If I was a gambling man I'd put my money on the bill not passing. Pun intended.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:If Loot Boxes are not consindered Gambling then you know whats wrong with the US.

Let hope it will change.

I went digging through some of my older posts on the subject, and I found one that pertains to just this. First... wow my brain is fried lately. I can't fathom making a post like this one now. For simplicity's sake, I'll re-post all of the pertinent parts:

I remember when City of Heroes introduced Superpacks. You could buy them for real money or get them regularly if you had a subscription. These packs had costume parts, unique inspirations (potions, basically) and unique equipment that was really strong but unobtainable anywhere else. Before launch people were skeptical of these things because they were indirectly a pay-to-win system, but afterward it was mostly praise. First, the whales who liked supporting the game were finally glad they could dump as much money as they wanted into it. Second, the packs were generally rewarding and had plenty of useful and fun stuff. Since everything was tradeable, all of the goods hit the market and launched everyone into a massive trading frenzy to try and grab whatever enhancements they needed. And to think, I have seen this before...

The Superpacks, and by extension the BLCs, are a callback to the OG loot box: Magic: the Gathering booster packs. Go to a local game store on new set day for any popular CCG or TCG, and you'll see happening what happened with the release of the Superpacks. The loot boxes (and card boxes) may appear to be pure gambling on the outset, but there are things that differentiate it.

Here in Vegas, when you put money into a slot machine or down on a table, your options are "win and get more money" and "lose and get nothing". But when you use a black lion key or buy a pack of cards, you aren't giving your money away for potentially nothing. You are making a trade for the contents within that box, and though random there is never nothing in the box. If you buy an M:tG booster pack, you're getting 15 cards. Whether these 15 cards have a market value greater than what you paid for them is going to be random, but you'll always get 15 cards. The BLCs always give at least 3 items, with 1 loot package and 2 additional service items. They can give a lot more, but they can't give you less.

Second, there is no direct exchange market. In Vegas, you play money for money. They use chips as a medium for table games, but those chips are directly exchanged for cash by the casino. If you buy a pack of M:tG cards, there is no method to directly exchange them for cash. Yes, you can liquidate your cards on the secondary market, but that is entirely peer driven and unofficial. BLCs are similar to this, in that there is no way for Arenanet to give you money in exchange for the stuff contained within the BLC. You are buying random goods, not gambling. The fact that it is random is not too dissimilar from other markets. I.E. if you buy a new comic book, there's no guarantee that it'll be good or that it'll have a resale value equal to its printed price.

Third, the ability to buy things with in-game currency means that ultimately the gemstore is considered a game of skill. This is how carnival games skirt the legal lines of gambling: they are contests, not gambles. A "game of skill" is significantly different from a slot machine, since the direct inputs from the player have an effect on the outcome of the game. M:tG and other TCGs are similar to this, in that while you are in a tournament, the skill factor cannot be dismissed. Luck plays a part, but that can be said of nearly any sport or contest. In GW2, the ability to obtain black lion keys is directly proportional to your ability to gather gold in the game, and as that option exists it isn't truly a "gamble" if you don't have to lay money down. You just have to be good enough at the game.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Aaralyna.3104 said:What will happen is that you cannot purchase keys for them in gem store nor can buy packages containing these or rng packages inside these. Basically what they did in game to Belgium last year. Which has a ban on lootboxes law. And yes it was for children but they took it out for the whole country.

Parents are responsible for their children, not government. Even the worst, laziest and incompetent parents can do a better job protecting their child than a government official.

[sephiroth.4217]

If they guarantee a black lion statuette on every BLC then they should be able to work around it by using the RNG stuff as just "extra items"... That way they are actually selling the statuettes in a fancy box with extra RNG presents.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

If anything worthwhile passes, it won't kill off loot boxes but make them regulated. As in they reveal all the drop numbers down to the formula (like in casino gambling revealing all odds) or make it so that you get tangible value comparable to the money the company values the purchase price as.

[yann.1946]

@otto.5684 said:

@"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:Either way. Government intervention (instead of better parental over site...) will get messy.

D:

I do not understand why people keep bringing parental oversight. I could use this fail kitten logic in anything. Drinking, smoking, gambling, etc... all have age restrictions in the US. Should we instead use parental control?!!

@yann.1946 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@otto.5684 said:I think sooner or later, they will tag a 21 years old on loot boxes. Games should stay away from gambling and just sell the cosmetics directly with no RNG.

Sadly If they approve what you're saying, it could lead to the elimination of all rng in all games, thus eliminating rng drops from mobs and thus ruining the enjoyment of finding treasure and the enjoyment of the game itself. Technically everything in the game is chance, and time spent rolling on those chances of getting good treasure or loot. Since Time is money, elimination of all rng is essentially the argument you're making.

Let’s not get bananas shall we? No reason for this kitten “oh no they well destroy the game.” Clearly this is about micro transactions, specifically randomized loot boxes purchasable with either real money or in game currency directly purchasable with money.

The game shop will be much better if loot boxes were removed.

this will destroy a ton of games, not just GW2, I don't understand why anyone wants this. Why don't parents just watch their children and the problem is solved?

If games are designed to be gambling outlets, to manipulate people to spend more money, then by all means, they can be destroyed.

If the game is to have gambling, gambling rules should apply.

It's not only about lootboxes tho. Take the two in game currency based gambling systems in the game.

• ectogambling
• lootbags.

I think people who are against gambling would agree that the first one is bad while the second is acceptable but how does one draw the line their?

It is not really. In GW2 it is black lion chests. Everything else is fair game. In most games as well it is not complicated science to know what is the equivalent of real life gambling and what is not. People claim it is difficult, then impossible to do. It is neither nor.

The gems to gold makes this difficult tho because technically every random thing in game could be considered gambling

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

Reading all those comments about "nanny states" and such is always amusing, considering the context. People say they want to be free to choose how they want to spend their own money. I would agree. But how would a 18/21+ age rating and a gambling disclaimer affect any of those people? If you are a responsible adult, with your own hard earned cash, you are free to spend your money however you want, no government can stop you. If you are an irresponsible underage brat, the age rating might make it slightly harder to exploit your mommy's gullibility and unfamiliarity with gaming MtX.

Realistically, the only adults who would be affected by something like that, would be the gaming industry's shareholders, who have been too dependent on their morally ambiguous cash cow. I doubt we have many of these browsing these forums, although I could be wrong...

[yann.1946]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Aaralyna.3104 said:What will happen is that you cannot purchase keys for them in gem store nor can buy packages containing these or rng packages inside these. Basically what they did in game to Belgium last year. Which has a ban on lootboxes law. And yes it was for children but they took it out for the whole country.

Parents are responsible for their children, not government. Even the worst, laziest and incompetent parents can do a better job protecting their child than a government official.

You haven't seen really bad parents then.

[Randulf.7614]

Made BBC news today which is a surprise

[sigur.9453]

@Fenom.9457 said:Ah, kitten, I hope not! Just leave us alone politicians! Let US choose as individuals to gamble or not to. I personally have no issue with it and would rather people stop panicking about it

Yep, I will choose not to be or get addicted to gambling. Easy.

[sigur.9453]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:why? I enjoy paid RNG. If you don't like it, why don't you just not buy it?

I'm not talking about me but on behalf of the many teens, adolescents and even adults who lose hundreds or thousands of dollars getting addicted to gambling in games (and on related websites). Gambling can be highly addictive and therefore should not be encouraged, but that's just my opinion.

You can get addicted to anything lol... Why don't people have self control? Should we outlaw most foods or drinks or activities because some people out there have horrible addictions to them? Or is the blame placed on the individual to exercise some self control? I'd say that people need to do things in moderation, and holding everyone hostage by banning activities outright that everyone enjoys, because a few people have problems with self moderation while engaging in those activities seems very unreasonable.

You clearly do not not how addiction works. Inform yourself and then come back and talk to this topic

[sigur.9453]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Its pretty simple. Every online purchase gambling or not is made with a credit card. You cannot apply for a credit card unless you are 18, because a credit card purchase is a contract. A minor cannot enter into a contract. Therefore anytime a kid uses their parents credit card to do any online microtransaction. It's either 100% with the parents consent or the transaction is void and using the card without permission is theft and fraud.

So parents watch your kids. Or put blocks on your kids cell phones and PC with a password that blocks all online purchases and keep your cards in a safe place.

Case closed.

Ever heard of prepaid cards available at nearly every shops counter? Bad argument, sry.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Really hope this bill doesnt pass. I dont agree with it at all, parents need to watch their kids.

Ok!

Lets make alcohol legal for every age.

„Parents need to watch thier kids“

Realy dude?

Yah why dont parents watch their kids? You ever hear what happened with prohibition? It didn't work. Just like the war on drugs doesnt work.

You seem to love false analogies. Nobody is prohibiting anything, not even in Belgium. They simply asked the gaming industry to be upfront about what they are offering and put gambling disclaimers on their products. The gaming studios themselves decided to ban their own lootboxes there, in order to create artificial outrage from people like you, who like the practice. That "army" of lootbox lovers will then put pressure on their governments to overturn the law because they can't engage in their favorite hobby anymore, essentially becoming the industry's best defenders. The only party doing any "prohibition" in this case, is the gaming industry.

Why should everyones enjoyment be ruined because parents decided to have kids and then decided not to watch them and put the burden on everyone else.

Please explain to me how a gambling disclaimer and an age gate ruins your personal enjoyment of anything. Assuming you are an adult with your own money to spend, you can keep happily gambling them away in as many lootboxes as you want. Does anyone stop you from going into a casino to gamble your fortune away? The answer is no unless you are underage, and if that's the case you would be practically reinforcing the argument made in this thread with your stance.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:Ah, kitten, I hope not! Just leave us alone politicians! Let US choose as individuals to gamble or not to. I personally have no issue with it and would rather people stop panicking about it

Yep, I will choose not to be or get addicted to gambling. Easy.

No, you choose whether or not to gamble. Easy.

I have somehow managed to play Candy Crush to level 400 (or whatever) without buying a single thing from their store. Miraculously I found myself playing Fallout Shelter without spending a dime. And in some mysterious way, I have somehow managed to not spend a single penny or gem buying BL keys for BL chests.

[sigur.9453]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Fenom.9457" said:Ah, kitten, I hope not! Just leave us alone politicians! Let US choose as individuals to gamble or not to. I personally have no issue with it and would rather people stop panicking about it

Yep, I will choose not to be or get addicted to gambling. Easy.

No, you choose whether or not to gamble. Easy.

I have somehow managed to play Candy Crush to level 400 (or whatever) without buying a single thing from their store. Miraculously I found myself playing Fallout Shelter without spending a dime. And in some mysterious way, I have somehow managed to not spend a single penny or gem buying BL keys for BL chests.

Please read up on addiction. There is a ton of information out there. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it does not affect anyone else." I'm good, so everyone else is" is a very shortsighted view of things.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Fenom.9457" said:Ah, kitten, I hope not! Just leave us alone politicians! Let US choose as individuals to gamble or not to. I personally have no issue with it and would rather people stop panicking about it

Yep, I will choose not to be or get addicted to gambling. Easy.

No, you choose whether or not to gamble. Easy.

I have somehow managed to play Candy Crush to level 400 (or whatever) without buying a single thing from their store. Miraculously I found myself playing Fallout Shelter without spending a dime. And in some mysterious way, I have somehow managed to not spend a single penny or gem buying BL keys for BL chests.

Please read up on addiction. There is a ton of information out there. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it does not affect anyone else." I'm good, so everyone else is" is a very shortsighted view of things.

You should take your own advice and educate yourself. Addiction has a beginning, and that begins with a choice. That's a harsh reality, and it's easier for people to blame something/someone else for the path they are currently on, but like everything in life, it all begins with a choice.

[sigur.9453]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Fenom.9457" said:Ah, kitten, I hope not! Just leave us alone politicians! Let US choose as individuals to gamble or not to. I personally have no issue with it and would rather people stop panicking about it

Yep, I will choose not to be or get addicted to gambling. Easy.

No, you choose whether or not to gamble. Easy.

I have somehow managed to play Candy Crush to level 400 (or whatever) without buying a single thing from their store. Miraculously I found myself playing Fallout Shelter without spending a dime. And in some mysterious way, I have somehow managed to not spend a single penny or gem buying BL keys for BL chests.

Please read up on addiction. There is a ton of information out there. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it does not affect anyone else." I'm good, so everyone else is" is a very shortsighted view of things.

You should take your own advice and educate yourself. Addiction has a beginning, and that begins with a choice. That's a harsh reality, and it's easier for people to blame something/someone else for the path they are currently on, but like everything in life, it all begins with a choice.

I did.And where is it easier to get addicted, when you can dabble with it easily, or when there are some restrictions on the way?

"Everything begins with a choice" is easy to say but hard to understand. Literally not true for some addictions. Addiction is not a simple yes /no question, and hard to write about in an online forum. There are professions based on that topic. Watching a 3 minute yt video might not be enough.