Will Black Lion Chests be forbidden in the USA?

Ayrilana.1396 · May 9, 2019

@trixantea.1230 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@trixantea.1230 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@trixantea.1230 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@trixantea.1230 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@trixantea.1230 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@trixantea.1230 said:The world needs to forbid gambling alltogether. Nothing good comes from it.

Wow that's a huge judgement. Life is a gamble I dont understand your logic.

Either your logic is biased against my claim or perhaps we are not talking about the same definition of gambling.By gambling I mean betting money on a game of random chance. A game where the house wins money without producing anything and where the gambler may or may not get his money's worth.I can only see greedy companies, lazy people and gambling addicts defending this act.

Oh so you mean like all of capitalism

Try to take a deep breath and think about what you just said. Capitalism has nothing to do with the topic :/

yes it does money goes in. There's no guarantee of any return or what you expect. This is true of all of life. You're deluding yourself if you think there is no risk in any of these processes or that they are not all gambles. Nothing in life is guaranteed and life isn't fair or the same.

As a healthy natural state for human beings, people need to work in order to provide a specific service/product and recieve the equivalent value of money. It's true that sometimes commerce involves taking risks but if you lose your money you can either blame "fate" or blame yourself for your poor management. No one else is to blame here.

This case is different, gaming companies offer players a gamble by selling them loot boxes which contains random items with let's say 1% to 100% of its money's value and a chance of 1% to get 500% of your money's worth and a 0.001% chance to get the ingame marchendise you'd like to buy. If a player wants to get an item worth 10$, he will have to buy 100 5$ lootboxes in order to get it.

This dishonest behavior from these companies aims to milk players by selling them Items they don't need and in many cases players will recive worthless items compared to what they payed for. Gambling companies work almost the same way but with different currencies, rewards and chances.

And I'll say it again: Capitalism has nothing to do with the subject.

It’s a bit disingenuous to call it ‘dishonest’ because you dislike it.

Can you elaborate on that? Because I made a very clear and logical argument here.

The part about you labeling any company selling items that have an RNG nature as being dishonest.

As I said , it is dishonest because it makes players buy dupes and items they don't need and sometimes this RNG gives them worthless items. You still didn't provide any logical argument here.

That’s not dishonesty. You’re misusing the word.

By your usage of the word, State-run lotteries are dishonest. Raffles are dishonest. The McDonald’s monopoly game is dishonest. Those card packs that may contain a rare card are dishonest.

You’re labeling it as dishonest because there’s RNG involved and one side stands to benefit from it.

Ensign.2189 · May 9, 2019

The alternative to putting exclusive items in BLCs is not selling them on the store for $5. The alternative is not making those items in the first place.

trixantea.1230 · May 9, 2019

@Ayrilana.1396 said:That’s not dishonesty. You’re misusing the word.
By your usage of the word, State-run lotteries are dishonest. Raffles are dishonest. The McDonald’s monopoly game is dishonest. Those card packs that may contain a rare card are dishonest.
You’re labeling it as dishonest because there’s RNG involved and one side stands to benefit from it.
@TheGrimm.5624 said:
@trixantea.1230 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@trixantea.1230 said:
As a healthy natural state for human beings, people need to work in order to provide a specific service/product and recieve the equivalent value of money. It's true that sometimes commerce involves taking risks but if you lose your money you can either blame "fate" or blame yourself for your poor management. No one else is to blame here.
This case is different, gaming companies offer players a gamble by selling them loot boxes which contains random items with let's say 1% to 100% of its money's value and a chance of 1% to get 500% of your money's worth and a 0.001% chance to get the ingame marchendise you'd like to buy. If a player wants to get an item worth 10$, he will have to buy 100 5$ lootboxes in order to get it.
This dishonest behavior from these companies aims to milk players by selling them Items they don't need and in many cases players will recive worthless items compared to what they payed for. Gambling companies work almost the same way but with different currencies, rewards and chances.
And I'll say it again: Capitalism has nothing to do with the subject.

It’s a bit disingenuous to call it ‘dishonest’ because you dislike it.

Can you elaborate on that? Because I made a very clear and logical argument here.

Sorry but cutting out some of previous quote to narrow it down some. I also have to agree I don't think dishonest is valid. When I buy keys, and it's normally for cash not conversion, I know what I bought. I just bought keys that equal however much I spent. No randomness there. I understand that key will then combine with another item I did not buy with cash that will grant me a random experience. So again I am fully aware of what I bought. I have never felt that was dishonest, I know all the way thru what I am buying. If I choose to pay for that random experience that was my choice, I wasn't conned into it. In some cases I have sat on keys for a while so in reality if you break it down that way there is no randomness in the original purchase at all. I bought a key that is worth $1.56. Whether or not I do something with it from there is on me. But we all know the purpose of the key it to open the BLTC so we will leave that there.

Now back in the day when we couldn't preview I think I would agree a bit more, but even then, I still knew I was spending $20-100 on a random experience, but I still choose to do it. When I don't want that randomness, I just don't buy keys. For it to be dishonest they would need to say you have to buy this thing but we aren't telling you what it is and you really don't have to.

Now let's go the other way for a second and look at something not guild wars. Lets say it was a new game and the only way you could level up and grow stronger was by buying random loot chests. You still don't have to play, walk away from the game. You spending money is what empowers yourself, choose not to transact with them. They go out of business.

This would be a whole different discussion if this was something like you need to buy loot boxes to get your medicine for an illness you have.

Keys by themselves are not the item you really bought. People do not buy keys because they want to see a key icon in their inventory. If you don't use them correctly they will stay as an item with 0 value in your inventory and you will be spending 1.56$ for 0 until you open a BLC and get the item you bought the key for. Still, I respect your choice for buying the key knowing what it may or may not contain as much loot as its worth. I also respect your choice for throwing your money into the sea or burning it willingly but my points here are:

1- There are some inexperienced players who will buy the keys and get completely worthless items. These players won't get their money's worth and will feel betrayed/robbed.

2- If Anet puts an item for sale. There has to be a way to buy this item with a known X price. Loot boxes does not allow this kind of transaction and instead it gives the item a random chance to appear within the the box. This will make players who want this item buy multiple boxes to get it and buy doing that they will end up recieving many items they don't need and spend more money than the value the item they wanted.

I myself am against gambling altogether for many reasons but I will try to make suggestion in order to reduce the negative effect of lootboxes:

1- A BLC must contain at least an item which have equal (or more) value than 1.56$ or its equivalent of gold/gems. Selling players a box which has sometimes almost 0 value is nothing but robbery. The example of random mount packs is a bit better than the BLC. At least you will always get your money's worth when you buy one.

2- Make all BLC items tradable so players won't have to buy multiple keys in order to get what they want. I am not against making rare drops but if a player wants that rare item the cost to get it from a lootbox will be far too high and he will end up getting (buying) many items he did not want to recieve.

Bloodstealer.5978 · May 9, 2019

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@otto.5684 said:
@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
@otto.5684 said:I think sooner or later, they will tag a 21 years old on loot boxes. Games should stay away from gambling and just sell the cosmetics directly with no RNG.

Sadly If they approve what you're saying, it could lead to the elimination of all rng in all games, thus eliminating rng drops from mobs and thus ruining the enjoyment of finding treasure and the enjoyment of the game itself. Technically everything in the game is chance, and time spent rolling on those chances of getting good treasure or loot. Since Time is money, elimination of all rng is essentially the argument you're making.

Let’s not get bananas shall we? No reason for this kitten “oh no they well destroy the game.” Clearly this is about micro transactions, specifically randomized loot boxes purchasable with either real money or in game currency directly purchasable with money.

The game shop will be much better if loot boxes were removed.

this will destroy a ton of games, not just GW2, I don't understand why anyone wants this. Why don't parents just watch their children and the problem is solved?

Why will it destroy them.. surely it means they have to think up better ways to make money rather than RNG boxes.Personally I don't feel ANET will need to do much more than they already do - ie every BLC offers something plus guaranteed statuettes in order to use against content purchases, mount select boxes added.. I think your taking things too extreme by saying it will destroy the game though tbh.

There is no denying that gambling is an issue, there is no denying that underage gambling is a problem and there is also no getting away from the fact that gambling sells and it is often found to utilise predatory practices in order to sell, which is why countries are starting to act on these things.That said I agree, no one (at least no one I know) wants to live in a nanny state, but some level of control is required and to do that the gaming orgs, gambling institutions, parents and government must all take a slice of the responsibility cake otherwise if left unchecked the problems will persist and grow until government does have to step in enforce unpopular law.

Take gatcha games for example. How do those games function with this law? You say they will come up with new ways of making money. But gw2 didnt. They just removed the black lion chests and were done with it.

No they haven't removed the BLC's.. for Belgium they restricted access to it for players from that country .. if this escalates to other countries then ANET will either have to take the hit on BL Keys and other gemstore items that become unavailable to players from those countries.. or they will be forced to change approach in order to safeguard revenue - hardly rocket science to see that.At the moment its an isolated restriction which is why they removed access tot he chest.. not removed them all together..If Gacha games can't find other ways to monetise themselves then that fault lays squarely on them.. tbh gacha games are one of those predatory forms of moba gaming that fall into the "easy prey, easy money" category imo because with mobiles being so prevalent and often used unrestricted kids of very young ages can easily get hooked on them even with parents trying to be vigilant and responsible.

IndigoSundown.5419 · May 9, 2019

@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:So, the question really is, "Can developers make good games that will support themselves while avoiding tactics designed to milk the maximum money out of players?" A decade ago, the answer was a resounding, "Yes." Lately, it seems like the answer is increasingly becoming, "No."

A decade ago, games required a subscription or at least those with new content actively being added which weren’t expansions.

If by games, you only mean "MMO's" then yes, the percentage of sub models was higher. Then there was GW, which sold 6 million units and spawned a fan base big enough to make this game successful. There were also plenty of SP games that sold a lot of boxes and generated fan bases for those companies. Some of those sold sequels. There's also a big gap between sub MMO's which gave you everything they made for the game until the next XPac, and some modern "game-as-a-service" models which are made as a bare minimum product whose sole reason for existence is to be the vehicle for scads of DLC and MT's.

Disclaimer: for what it's worth, and despite BLC's, GW2 is pretty tame as far as money-milking goes.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108 · May 10, 2019

A lot of the enjoyment of playing gw2 is the rng surrounding the loot. I guess now people consider the fact that every mob doesnt drop a precursor as being dishonest?

One guy makes an account and gets a precursor on first kill, meanwhile some guy farming for days gets nothing, is this dishonest? I mean it is a gamble we spent time farming mobs that contain rng bases loot and time is money, so how is this any different?

Dreams.3128 · May 10, 2019

Oh look, our country is gonna become a nanny state if this passes.

What's next? You people are gonna need the government to tell you how to raise your families? Balance your checkbook? When to have kids? Good grief.

Eekasqueak.7850 · May 10, 2019

I really don't understand why some people go so far to defend loot boxes sometimes. Honestly I think there's nothing wrong with being more upfront about stuff being sold. Plenty of games do fine without the need to include loot boxes, I think GW2 would be improved without them.

Erasculio.2914 · May 10, 2019

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I can understand the want for regulations, though. Make no mistake: these dime-a-dozen, skinner box, grind fests buried under paywalls... they're meant to take advantage of people. They are designed maliciously. Even here in Vegas the casinos are kind enough to make penny slots for people who want to play on a budget. The casinos don't make you shell out $50 for in-game progress or useless kitten. There's no moral folly in wanting to stop this. Likewise, the rampant lootbox model is also terrible game design, and it has been ruining games for awhile now.This is the crux of the argument to me. We know those loot box are predatory in design; we know everything about them - from how flashy they are when opened, to the "limited sale" aspects made to encourage impulsive buying, and so on - has been made to exploit people who have any weakness to this kind of thing. We have been told how microtransactions usually work - how the average player spends next to nothing, while a few "whales" spend small fortunes. Those "whales" are where those who are addicted or simply don't know better usually go.

In the end, the regulation of loot boxes is not a matter of freedom vs censorship. It's a matter of how much gaming companies should be allowed to exploit their customers without being punished for it. If anything, it's closer to being a matter of individualism vs collectivism; the notion that "I don't have a problem with it, so it's fine" is not as as strong a point as "some people have problems with this, and we should help them".

yann.1946 · May 10, 2019

@Lilyanna.9361 said:Oh look, our country is gonna become a nanny state if this passes.
What's next? You people are gonna need the government to tell you how to raise your families? Balance your checkbook? When to have kids? Good grief.

Let's be honest it probably would be better for a lot of people if the state could balance your checkbook and whether you are allowed to have kids

Dreams.3128 · May 10, 2019

@yann.1946 said:
@Lilyanna.9361 said:Oh look, our country is gonna become a nanny state if this passes.
What's next? You people are gonna need the government to tell you how to raise your families? Balance your checkbook? When to have kids? Good grief.

Let's be honest it probably would be better for a lot of people if the state could balance your checkbook and whether you are allowed to have kids

Yes, so then we can hear people complain about how said kids can do NOTHING for themselves and people have little to no experience compared to our grandparents/great grandparents etc.

That's an embarrassment. We are essentially saying, we the people, can't do anything for ourselves. Period.

yann.1946 · May 10, 2019

@Lilyanna.9361 said:
@yann.1946 said:
@Lilyanna.9361 said:Oh look, our country is gonna become a nanny state if this passes.
What's next? You people are gonna need the government to tell you how to raise your families? Balance your checkbook? When to have kids? Good grief.

Let's be honest it probably would be better for a lot of people if the state could balance your checkbook and whether you are allowed to have kids

Yes, so then we can hear people complain about how said kids can do NOTHING for themselves and people have little to no experience compared to our grandparents/great grandparents etc.

That's an embarrassment. We are essentially saying, we the people, can't do anything for ourselves. Period.

I think you're conflating two ideas here. No not everyone should be held in check and should be nannied.But their are people for who this would help.Their are already people who can't really do things by themselves so why not help them.

mauried.5608 · May 10, 2019

If a game company charges a monthly sub to play their game , are they exploiting their players?

Blude.6812 · May 10, 2019

@mauried.5608 said:If a game company charges a monthly sub to play their game , are they exploiting their players?

Nope, just fishing in the gullible and the dummies.

mauried.5608 · May 10, 2019

How about people who are addicted to such games , eg WOW and cant give it up?

IndigoSundown.5419 · May 10, 2019

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:A lot of the enjoyment of playing gw2 is the rng surrounding the loot.
I guess now people consider the fact that every mob doesnt drop a precursor as being dishonest?
One guy makes an account and gets a precursor on first kill, meanwhile some guy farming for days gets nothing, is this dishonest? I mean it is a gamble we spent time farming mobs that contain rng bases loot and time is money, so how is this any different?

If you are a psychologist, as you've claimed in this thread, you should know that there are plenty of studies about the addictive nature of video games. However, the addictive nature of video games is not in any way due solely to RNG in such a game. GW2's incremental rewards are as likely to result in players playing in an addictive manner as RNG rewards. While incremental rewards have a defined end, put enough of them into a game and people can play as much as they might for an RNG reward. That is because MMO gameplay is designed to waste players' time.

One might make the case that there is some superficial similarity between wasting time and wasting money. However, there is little to no societal impetus (in any society I know of) to keep people from wasting their time. So, no, time is not money. Money is money and time is apparently ours to waste. Maybe this is because, with some exceptions, people are not playing MMO's at work or school, so the time being wasted is leisure time -- with which people can generally do as they please.

Bawi.9541 · May 10, 2019

Let all the gaming companies that solely rely on loot boxes go bankrupt and burn in hell.I'm sure GW2 will adapt, and be a more enjoyable game for it. I personally still think the GW2 ingame shop prices are way too high; to a point where they are hurting their possible revenue, but that's besides the point.

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:everything is gambling, even buying food. You might not like it, it might not be as you expected, you might be allergic to it. Therefore maybe we should just ban all the foods that don't sit well with you personally. Thats the same thing you're saying.

The obvious (I'm assuming you're just dishonest and not ACTUALLY stupid enough to not see it) difference is the degree of randomness. If you're buying food, you 99% know what you're buying. If you're opening a loot box, you could get any of a LOT of items. Add in obscure chances and that carrot on a stick ("theoretically you could be getting this super cool super rare item hurr durr") and you get the most hateable, predatory practice in gaming.

Neural.1824 · May 10, 2019

Oh noes.. game companies might be forced to focus on retaining customers and making money through the quality of their game, not gimmicks! The horror!

Palador.2170 · May 10, 2019

Personally, I hope that the law doesn't pass in its current form, but maybe as something that just requires them to be more open and honest about the loot boxes and the odds behind them. Maybe make games have a "No Lootbox" option you can check to not show any lootbox stuff for sale, possibly something that can be set by parents for when kids play a game?

Games need to move away from lootboxes, anyway. Most of the time, they're an improvement of the bottom line by means other than increasing the quality of the overall game.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108 · May 10, 2019

Why dont players simply learn to control their behaviors instead of passing laws that needlessly impact everyone's enjoyment. I guess the message is if you enjoy gambling or RNG then theres just no place for that... great. I dont agree i think if you dont like it just dont participate in it, watch children and learn to say no to them and learn to control impulses rather then project laws on everyone that arent needed and are unwanted.

Zaklex.6308 · May 10, 2019

@trixantea.1230 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:That’s not dishonesty. You’re misusing the word.
By your usage of the word, State-run lotteries are dishonest. Raffles are dishonest. The McDonald’s monopoly game is dishonest. Those card packs that may contain a rare card are dishonest.
You’re labeling it as dishonest because there’s RNG involved and one side stands to benefit from it.
@TheGrimm.5624 said:
@trixantea.1230 said:
@Ayrilana.1396 said:
@trixantea.1230 said:
As a healthy natural state for human beings, people need to work in order to provide a specific service/product and recieve the equivalent value of money. It's true that sometimes commerce involves taking risks but if you lose your money you can either blame "fate" or blame yourself for your poor management. No one else is to blame here.
This case is different, gaming companies offer players a gamble by selling them loot boxes which contains random items with let's say 1% to 100% of its money's value and a chance of 1% to get 500% of your money's worth and a 0.001% chance to get the ingame marchendise you'd like to buy. If a player wants to get an item worth 10$, he will have to buy 100 5$ lootboxes in order to get it.
This dishonest behavior from these companies aims to milk players by selling them Items they don't need and in many cases players will recive worthless items compared to what they payed for. Gambling companies work almost the same way but with different currencies, rewards and chances.
And I'll say it again: Capitalism has nothing to do with the subject.