Soulbeast is not an issue. "Sic 'Em!" is.

[Sandzibar.5134]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

its more like rangers trying their hardest to convince ppl that their obviously op builds aren't bad for the game, and that we should look the other way since this class is a special victim with special privileges.

Yet no serious WvW groups want rangers.. sic em or not... The same as its been for the last 7 years.

Really makes you think.

[derd.6413]

@Sandzibar.5134 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

its more like rangers trying their hardest to convince ppl that their obviously op builds aren't bad for the game, and that we should look the other way since this class is a special victim with special privileges.

Yet no serious WvW groups want rangers.. sic em or not though... The same as its been for the last 7 years.

since it's more of a solo build then a group build

[Sandzibar.5134]

@derd.6413 said:

@Sandzibar.5134 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

its more like rangers trying their hardest to convince ppl that their obviously op builds aren't bad for the game, and that we should look the other way since this class is a special victim with special privileges.

Yet no serious WvW groups want rangers.. sic em

or not

though... The same as its been for the last 7 years.

since it's more of a solo build then a group build

The "or not" indicates that non sic em ranger builds are also unwanted by WvW groups.

Not core builds. Not Druid builds. Not SBeast.

[derd.6413]

@Sandzibar.5134 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Sandzibar.5134 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

its more like rangers trying their hardest to convince ppl that their obviously op builds aren't bad for the game, and that we should look the other way since this class is a special victim with special privileges.

Yet no serious WvW groups want rangers.. sic em

or not

though... The same as its been for the last 7 years.

since it's more of a solo build then a group build

The "or not" indicates that non sic em ranger builds are also unwanted by WvW groups.

Not core builds. Not Druid builds. Not SBeast.

ranger has no good group builds for WvW, yes. you're point? just because ranger doesn't have many viable builds in WvW doesn't mean that the few builds he has can't be "OP"

[coro.3176]

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:While I agree with you OP; at the same time, this is WvW, and while roaming does play a part, the primary focus is on large group play and to a lesser extent small group play. Aside from harassing necros, Ranger is the 1 class that has least useful place in WvW. They don't need nerfs; nothing about them needs nerfs, not without drastically expanding their group play potential.

If they were that big of a problem and had "that much" burst potential as people claim; we'd see a lot more commanders being pinned sniped into dirt. We'd see a lot more small group battles being overturned or 1 sided with the presence of a soulbeast; but the thing is, we don't. We don't see it because they are not a big as issue as people claim. They only seem to be a problem for people when they encounter them 1 on 1 and seem to be in a build built for similar burst potential. I had a Soulbeast dump their entire burst into me on my tanky class, and they didn't crack 8k. I had another soulbeast unload on my on my somewhat glassy rev and I died instantly. Are Soulbeasts the problem? No, it's the player's gear and expecting to survive every single onslaught of attack regardless of what class or build they face.

It's not the gear. I'm running full CVT gear and I still take 2.8k per hit of rapid fire (with quickness, unblockable). I can upload a clip of it happening just last night. They followed that up with a 7k autoattack.

It really is sic 'em. Yes. really. If you're "only" taking 8k from their entire burst, they probably didn't have sic em on. You probably had protection, and you probably blocked some of it.

[bigo.9037]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:Let's just be honest here. Like Thief, everybody just wants Rangers to be deleted from the game. Ranger has never really had a solid place in WvW. Whenever it starts to get some kind of toe-hold, everybody cries for nerfs. People just plain hate Rangers. At this point we should just all call for Guardians, Warriors, and Elementalists to be the only classes that should play WvW. Warriors for their meat-shield, Elementalists for their DPS, and Guardians for their Heals. That's what everybody really wants. That "Holy Trinity" that makes all MMOs so wonderful to play. Anything else is just too....................weird.

its more like rangers trying their hardest to convince ppl that their obviously op builds aren't bad for the game, and that we should look the other way since this class is a special victim with special privileges.

Don't nerf any burst dmg unless bunker builds like chrono, scrapper, FB, selfsustain god boonbeast, and others get nerfed too. Yes, getting 1 hit sux. But so does traiting full dmg, zerker, having 40% dmg modifier and still not being able to kill a FB that knows what he's doing.

Mained ranger since 2013, I play the build OP is talking about (but also many others without sicem) and I have to say FBs and are just so utterly broken I can't believe it. I can crit 7k with AA without MM traitline on squishes, I know my ranger and my build really, really well but I still can't kill a FB that knows how to kite. They just won't die. Sure he won't die but neither will I, right? Well that WOULD be true if it wasn't for the fact that he can also support other players at the same time cus all his healing and buffs are aoe based.

Don't get me wrong, I've killed many Fbs before. But in the right hands, is completely unkillable 1v1, surviving most 2v2s while focus is directly on me meanwhile my teammate can have crazy amounts of support and can basically kill them for me if he has enough dmg.

So TLDR: You wanna nerf dmg specs? Nerf support specs. The last thing we want for wvw is a bunker meta like we had in 2015 spvp.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@bigo.9037 said:So TLDR: You wanna nerf dmg specs? Nerf support specs. The last thing we want for wvw is a bunker meta like we had in 2015 spvp.

this fallacy is old. it assumes that cuz soulbeast gets nerfed, bunker builds will dominate (nope). it also assumes that soulbeast cannot be balanced (not surprising considering anets record, but still, nope). im not against bunkers being nerfed, but they're not the subject here. yes the two topics are related, and yes it is possible to balance the two separately (just wondering, how much do your lb autos hit against squishies?).

there is no legitimate reason why longbow autos should be doing more then 10k+ and wordly impact/ maul/ winters bite one shotting people.

[anduriell.6280]

@derd.6413 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@derd.6413 said:have sic' em only affects the pet skills when merged but not the weapon/utility skills

You know. That's actually a really good idea.

i have my moments

Actually is not a good idea, you are removing all the utility of one skill.Let's say malice does not increase the damage now for DE... Same case.

[Svarty.8019]

Be careful what you wish for. When you're not being killed by "no skill" rangers, you'll be killed by permanently invisible doods, guys who you can't target or guys who can out-sustain everything you do.

[bigo.9037]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:While I agree with you OP; at the same time, this is WvW, and while roaming does play a part, the primary focus is on large group play and to a lesser extent small group play. Aside from harassing necros, Ranger is the 1 class that has least useful place in WvW. They don't need nerfs; nothing about them needs nerfs, not without drastically expanding their group play potential.

If they were that big of a problem and had "that much" burst potential as people claim; we'd see a lot more commanders being pinned sniped into dirt. We'd see a lot more small group battles being overturned or 1 sided with the presence of a soulbeast; but the thing is, we don't. We don't see it because they are not a big as issue as people claim. They only seem to be a problem for people when they encounter them 1 on 1 and seem to be in a build built for similar burst potential. I had a Soulbeast dump their entire burst into me on my tanky class, and they didn't crack 8k. I had another soulbeast unload on my on my somewhat glassy rev and I died instantly. Are Soulbeasts the problem? No, it's the player's gear and expecting to survive every single onslaught of attack regardless of what class or build they face.

Never have a I heard a commander or group later ask for someone to get on their Soulbeast (or summon a Soulbeast on the map), to join the squad to quickly take out the opposing commander, their healers, or troublesome necros. Why? Because they can't; they don't do enough damage; not compared to other classes in a group setting. A player will have far better lucky taking down "said" targets on a rev or ele. Even a condition burst will have much better luck.

Then for those asking, thinking, or assuming the Rangers range should be reduced; how effective are they really in close? Compare them to other classes that have 1200 range attacks and their capability in close... Ranger doesn't need their range reduced; if any thing it should be a trait or something available that it increases even further.

Basically what it comes down to; these roamers want to encounter someone like me on a glassy build and destroy me without much resistance; that's essentially what this is about. But because rangers have the capability to do that very thing to others wandering around in offensive builds, people cry nerfs.. go figure..

Ranger is my second most played profession

so for the record, the purpose of the OP wasn't to get something nerfed that I don't play/don't understand. I only made this thread because it seems like every other day there's a thread about SB being problematic and everyone jumping on the bandwagon about how it needs to be nerfed. And as someone who dislikes

anything

being kneecapped just because a loud minority cry until they get their way, I thought I should state a less one sided opinion on how to fix it.

Though people have made some good points, I still believe longbow Soulbeast is overtuned as long as it is allowed to interact with "Sic 'Em!" as it currently does. And it does deserve the negative attention it has been getting because of this. Still, that doesn't mean a proper discussion on how to resolve it can't be had, unlike every other thread that has been here that has been nothing but one side of the party demanding blanket nerfs and the other half saying git gud.

In fact I wouldn't have felt the need to make a thread about this at all if it weren't for how many complaints about it there have been. I'm just tired of repeating myself so I thought I'd make a thread for it so I can fully explain myself and stop being a broken record. I don't think my solution is

the only

or

the best

solution, but I do think it's a lot more fair and logical than much of what other people have been asking to be nerfed.

Just how good are you at soulbeast? Specifically, the dps variant?

Soulbeast is a class that has virtually no use in wvw outside of solo/duo roaming. Even in 3v3s it starts to become worse than other similar roaming specs. So this spec, which has nothing to offer outside of a niche playstyle needs to get nerfed.. why exactly? Because it's annoying? Yea, TTK needs to increase. But that means we have to remove some sustain from healers too. Only THEN can we talk about nerfing dps.

Again, soulbeast is bad at anything that has 4+players in a team. 4v4, it's bad. 3v3, it's ok, 2v2 it's good, 1v1 it's good.

"Ganking" 1 person who is unaware and not ready for pewpew burst? Soulbeast is great at it. But really. Mesmers can do that too, just not from 1500 range, but they have much better stealth stacking than soulbeast.

[bigo.9037]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@bigo.9037 said:So TLDR: You wanna nerf dmg specs? Nerf support specs. The last thing we want for wvw is a bunker meta like we had in 2015 spvp.

this fallacy is old. it assumes that cuz soulbeast gets nerfed, bunker builds will dominate (nope). it also assumes that soulbeast cannot be balanced (not surprising considering anets record, but still, nope). im not against bunkers being nerfed, but they're not the subject here. yes the two topics are related, and yes it is possible to balance the two separately (just wondering, how much do your lb autos hit against squishies?).

there is no legitimate reason why longbow autos should be doing more then 10k+ and wordly impact/ maul/ winters bite one shotting people.

My AAs have hit 7k on an ele. That's with full zerk gearing on my side. I have not been in a fight where I was able to 1 hit an enemy with any one skill, except for the occasionally RF burst on someone who isn't ready for it.Yes, i too want 1shot or TTK in general to be changed, but I don't think soulbeast in particular is the only one at fault here. I still occasionally get 1shot by a mesmer who was in stealth... I don't want any nerfs to this build unless bunker specs get nerfed just as significantly, too.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@bigo.9037 said:My AAs have hit 7k on an ele. That's with full zerk gearing on my side. I have not been in a fight where I was able to 1 hit an enemy with any one skill, except for the occasionally RF burst on someone who isn't ready for it.Yes, i too want 1shot or TTK in general to be changed, but I don't think soulbeast in particular is the only one at fault here. I still occasionally get 1shot by a mesmer who was in stealth... I don't want any nerfs to this build unless bunker specs get nerfed just as significantly, too.I don't disagree, but, yeah.

[Shroud.2307]

@"bigo.9037" said:

Lol, everyone knows powercreep is a thing. You and all the others pointing fingers at balance and other professions to defend this is about the equivalent to saying "drunk driving isn't the problem, cars are!"

Let me put it simply for everyone who's having trouble understanding here:A gimmick or "one trick pony" is something that is simple and predictable. There are various builds that fall in to this category, many of which see little to no use due to their irrelevance against a meta, or even off meta build. Gimmick builds often only work by surprise and will fail to do so a second time on the same opponent if they're prepared. "Sic 'Em!" longbow Soulbeast falls in to the category of gimmick because it is predictable and not competitive. Despite this however, it's massive damage, ease of use, ranged advantage and mobility allow it to have relevance against players and builds beyond their realm of expertise. This puts it in to the same category as perma-stealth trapper Thief back in the day, pre-nerf Deadeye, point bunker turret Engineer back in the day, etc. Though the counters are obvious, the build performs it's gimmick so well that the risk of playing it is effectively non-existent. If the burst potential of longbow Soulbeast were to be reduced, it would still be capable within it's role but would then need to gauge it's risks. More conditions would have to be met such as timings, number of skills used, etc. As of right now, there are no conditions that need to be met other than having the target in range. And if they happen to close the gap, Soulbeast possesses enough mobility and melee range defense (even when fully spec'd in to damage) to kite away or fully escape.

Powercreep across the board is an issue but not everything is the same level of low risk/high reward as longbow Soulbeast. A properly played one is incredibly difficult to pin down on top of having the burst potential to drill through the defenses of even more durable builds. We can sit here all day and list other things that are broken but "Sic 'Em!" will still be one of them. The only reason people are so defensive about this is because they know it's the source of longbow Soulbeasts power. Changing it will not suddenly make it incapable of killing anything and yet people seem to think by doing so you may as well remove the profession.

[bigo.9037]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"bigo.9037" said:

Lol, everyone knows powercreep is a thing. You and all the others pointing fingers at balance and other professions to defend this is about the equivalent to saying "drunk driving isn't the problem, cars are!"

Let me put it simply for everyone who's having trouble understanding here:

A gimmick or "one trick pony" is something that is simple and predictable. There are various builds that fall in to this category, many of which see little to no use due to their irrelevance against a meta, or even off meta build. Gimmick builds often only work by surprise and will fail to do so a second time on the same opponent if they're prepared. "Sic 'Em!" longbow Soulbeast falls in to the category of gimmick because it is predictable and not competitive. Despite this however, it's massive damage, ease of use, ranged advantage and mobility allow it to have relevance against players and builds beyond their realm of expertise. This puts it in to the same category as perma-stealth trapper Thief back in the day, pre-nerf Deadeye, point bunker turret Engineer back in the day, etc. Though the counters are obvious, the build performs it's gimmick so well that the risk of playing it is effectively non-existent. If the burst potential of longbow Soulbeast were to be reduced, it would still be capable within it's role but would then need to gauge it's risks. More conditions would have to be met such as timings, number of skills used, etc. As of right now, there are no conditions that need to be met other than having the target in range. And if they happen to close the gap, Soulbeast possesses enough mobility and melee range defense (even when fully spec'd in to damage) to kite away or fully escape.

Powercreep across the board is an issue but not everything is the same level of low risk/high reward as longbow Soulbeast. A properly played one is incredibly difficult to pin down on top of having the burst potential to drill through the defenses of even more durable builds. We can sit here all day and list other things that are broken but "Sic 'Em!" will still be one of them. The only reason people are so defensive about this is because they know it's the source of longbow Soulbeasts power. Changing it will not suddenly make it incapable of killing anything and yet people seem to think by doing so you may as well remove the profession.

I literally said I'm all for a nerf as long as we get nerfs to bunkers too. How about this:

Give everyone a base of 40k hp, remove healing entirely from healing skills, or make aoe heals heal everyone except yourself etc. Decrease OOC health regeneration by 500%. (Include elite spec specific nerfs to sustain)Now you can nerf sicem to the ground for all I care.

[Shroud.2307]

@bigo.9037 said:

I literally said I'm all for a nerf as long as we get nerfs to bunkers too. How about this:

Give everyone a base of 40k hp, remove healing entirely from healing skills, or make aoe heals heal everyone except yourself etc. Decrease OOC health regeneration by 500%. (Include elite spec specific nerfs to sustain)Now you can nerf sicem to the ground for all I care.

Yes and I literally said in the OP that bunker builds are just as much of an issue as burst builds.

[bigo.9037]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@bigo.9037 said:

I literally said I'm all for a nerf as long as we get nerfs to bunkers too. How about this:

Give everyone a base of 40k hp, remove healing entirely from healing skills, or make aoe heals heal everyone except yourself etc. Decrease OOC health regeneration by 500%. (Include elite spec specific nerfs to sustain)Now you can nerf sicem to the ground for all I care.

Yes and I literally said in the OP that bunker builds are just as much of an issue as burst builds.

Good then we both agree

[Voltekka.2375]

Isnt it amazing, how much ranger mains will defend an absurdly broken skill, cause it carries them so much? Yeah...

[derd.6413]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@derd.6413 said:have sic' em only affects the pet skills when merged but not the weapon/utility skills

You know. That's actually a really good idea.

i have my moments

Actually is not a good idea, you are removing all the utility of one skill.Let's say malice does not increase the damage now for DE... Same case.

no, that'd be like if malice only affected stealth skills instead of all skills and also malice isn't an espec mechanic.

[Hitman.5829]

As long as there are traits such as over shield that grants -40% damage reduction. Sick em does not need a nerf.I am not sure if Anet developers calculate damage multiplicative or additive. For example:

• Multiplicative damage would be: 100* ((1 + 0.40)(1 - 0.40) - 1) = -16%
• Additive 40% - 40% = 0

If they have a multiplicative damage implemented, then over shield only reduces incoming damage by -16% instead of -40%. If the anet developers calculate damage like this, then this makes over shield and extremely overpowered defensive trait that not even sick em with a 40% damage modifier can cancel it. In fact, we can calculate the damage modifier needed to completely cancel over shield (once again assuming that anet developers use a multiplicative damage modifiers).The equation is:(1 + X)(1 - 0.40) - 1 = 0Solving for X we get 0.666 which is equal to a damage modifier of 66.66%.So, in other words, you need to have a 66.66% damage increase to cancel a -40% damage from over shield.

However, if they have an additive model, then sick em will be completely cancel by over shield.lets ask them, and if they have a multiplicative model to calculate damage, then what needs nerfing is over shield and not sick em.

If they use an additive modifier, then sick em is in par with damage reduction traits and boons.

[Anput.4620]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@bigo.9037 said:So TLDR: You wanna nerf dmg specs? Nerf support specs. The last thing we want for wvw is a bunker meta like we had in 2015 spvp.

this fallacy is old. it assumes that cuz soulbeast gets nerfed, bunker builds will dominate (nope). it also assumes that soulbeast cannot be balanced (not surprising considering anets record, but still, nope). im not against bunkers being nerfed, but they're not the subject here. yes the two topics are related, and yes it is possible to balance the two separately (just wondering, how much do your lb autos hit against squishies?).

there is no legitimate reason why longbow autos should be doing more then 10k+ and wordly impact/ maul/ winters bite one shotting people.

Except bunkers are still the best 1v1 specs right now and soulbeast can't do anything to stop them, the AA's don't hit 10k either, just 5.5 with a balanced build (if you run full glass then you are toast as soon as they evade your burst).

Like really bring the oh-so broken soulbeast against a protection holo or boonbeast, or a good hybrid guardian, no chance.

Many specs are way better than soulbeast, but to me it sounds like this may not be about balance in fights but the fact that soulbeast may have a chance of dismounting someone unlike those even more broken classes so poeple come complain here about soulbeast and not those others as they just walk past those to go and ktrain.

The only poeple that die to the full glass version of soulbeast, which isn't a good build even, are bad squishies that just try to run instead of fight.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Anput.4620 said:Except bunkers are still the best 1v1 specs right nowjust 5.5 with a balanced build(if you run full glass then you are toast as soon as they evade your burst).but to me it sounds like this may not be about balance in fightsthis isn't about bunkerswe're not talking about balanced buildstell me how to avoid auto attacks at 2000 rangeyou may not be reading things correctly

[Anput.4620]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Anput.4620 said:Except bunkers are still the best 1v1 specs right nowjust 5.5 with a balanced build(if you run full glass then you are toast as soon as they evade your burst).but to me it sounds like this may not be about balance in fightsthis isn't about bunkerswe're not talking about balanced buildstell me how to avoid auto attacks at 2000 rangeyou may not be reading things correctly

The full glass build is so bad where if you evade the initial burst they die like a wet noodle, especially to a condi bomb. Balanced build with marauder armor and durability runes and wilderness survival is a better duelist. I am just saying that it really isn't that good for a 1v1 and that it's just a pubstomp build to kill noobs with.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

There is a lot being said about Soulbeast. The solution lies in how Anet has tinkered with some of the ranger skills, they just need to finish.

For instance: Attack of Opportunity is not actually +50% for the merged SB, its 25%.

Proof:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack_of_Opportunity_(soulbeast_effect)

The same needs to happen to Sic'em and any other pet effect. The Soulbeast should get half of the effect, not the full effect.

There still needs to be a drawback built into the spec, which depending how Anet does it may curb some cheese. Honestly I think there will be one pet only and Beastmode will have a cast time.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Anput.4620 said:The full glass build is so bad where if you evade the initial burst they die like a wet noodle, especially to a condi bomb. Balanced build with marauder armor and durability runes and wilderness survival is a better duelist. I am just saying that it really isn't that good for a 1v1 and that it's just a pubstomp build to kill noobs with.

I don't know how to get through to you. you cant avoid the initial burst if it is auto attacks.it doesn't matter how good the build is or not, its garbage and horrible for the game.

[Anput.4620]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Anput.4620 said:The full glass build is so bad where if you evade the initial burst they die like a wet noodle, especially to a condi bomb. Balanced build with marauder armor and durability runes and wilderness survival is a better duelist. I am just saying that it really isn't that good for a 1v1 and that it's just a pubstomp build to kill noobs with.

I don't know how to get through to you. you cant avoid the initial burst if it is auto attacks.it doesn't matter how good the build is or not, its garbage and horrible for the game.

My weaver has 7 evades and never has a problem avoiding it. My thief can stealth the AA's, my scrapper throws up a barrier and my warrior/ranger just pop invul.

It matters how good it is or not, thats how balance works.

Just nerf marksmanship then if you want that so bad but don't hurt the balanced version of the build just to nerf a cheesbuild that is worse.

Again, DE can oneshot without you even seeing them, but no one cares because they can't do it while you are on your mount, this is just a dismounting complaint. These things happenes pre-mounts too.