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Soulbeast is not an issue. "Sic 'Em!" is.


Shroud.2307

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if you make sic em avoidable, most rangers will waste it.currently you only have to be in range and targetable, no matter what you do it will apply: no evade, block, blind, line of sight or invuln helps to avoid the damage boost + reveal.i think if it is avoidable, even with instant cast, it wont need a nerf in the modifier and it would reduce complains as many rather noobish rangers will miss it and therefor wont happen as much. but it would still keep the option for good snipes when timed correctly, the build is fragile enough to allow such singletarget burst.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:its more like rangers trying their hardest to convince ppl that their obviously op builds aren't bad for the game, and that we should look the other way since this class is a special victim with special privileges.

That's exactly right - rangers are special victims and need special privileges. What other class had a huge amount of its dps locked into a pet with horrendous AI? Prior to soulbeasts and pet merging, performing well with a ranger meant basically accepting a big dps loss thanks to pet AI and working around it. Rangers can finally do decent weapon damage now, and people are losing their minds over it.

This is not to say that the current state of affairs is balanced - I'm all for reducing the Sic 'Em multiplier for merged rangers in just sPvP and WvW.

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:If you don't want to read my explanations you can skip to the part below the line. I think if you're asking for Soulbeast to be nerfed however, reading it all may help to inspire some thoughts.

I think everyone can agree that Soulbeast is capable of doing a colossal amount of damage in a very short frame of time, often while having a significant range advantage. But what no one seems to agree on is what needs to be nerfed. It's always just a demand for Soulbeast in general to be nerfed.

So for the sake of discussion and education, I'd like to explain why I think ANet has allowed it to exist as it has for so long.

Support builds in WvW are equally as broken as many of the roaming and burst builds. Just because they don't do damage doesn't mean they aren't OP. Many times I've personally witnessed Firebrands literally taking up to a minute to die while 10+ players are attacking them (and for clarity, I don't mean just standing there and dancing in circles, but rather trying to escape from a group). Unless you're fully spec'd in to damage, many of the support/bunker builds like Firebrand, Scrapper, Chronomancer, etc. will be impossible to kill in a 1v1 or even Xv1.

With that said however, WvW is a team game. Although roaming is an aspect of WvW (and an important one), balance in that area is incredibly difficult to achieve. No matter what you do to roaming builds, it is likely to effect zergs as well. And historically, ANet has shown that they will allow roaming builds to exist as they are until they're strong enough to effect a larger scale. As a roamer, longbow Soulbeast is a +1 like a Thief that's most effective at adding to a fight when a player(s) has used multiple cooldowns. In zergs, it can fulfill a role as a sniper, but it is pretty clear how ineffective that is the majority of the time. It can work, but it requires a great deal of co-ordination and often multiple longbow Soulbeasts working together to bring their targets down. Therefore it does not effect the large scale.


"Sic 'Em!" increases pet damage by 40% and when merged, has the same effect on the Soulbeast. 40% is an absolutely enormous damage increase for a single button push. It is a build defining skill for longbow Soulbeasts and contributes significantly to it's burst potential. However, it does not effect core Ranger or Druid, only Soulbeast. Therefore, I believe the most appropriate way to reduce the lethality of Soulbeast without effecting Ranger or Druid, and without making Soulbeast ineffective as a specialization, is to do the following;Reduce the percentage increase to either 10 or 15%, or do not allow "Sic 'Em!" to effect the Soulbeast while merged at all. Soulbeast, and Ranger in general, still have many damage modifiers and will still be capable snipers without this skill. It will also promote some diversity in that it will allow players who want to snipe to choose Soulbeast and players who want to play Longbow but want to 1v1 to choose core Ranger.

You’re a platinum rank wvw player, so don’t come off as this high damage stuff being a ranger problem, or a particular skill problem... Or do we need to start posting 1 shot vids from other professions so you understand that damage all around is too high when compared to player health?

Here, think about it before you bring up rangers again... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28024/increasing-ttk-undoing-old-split-changes-and-eliminating-skill-splitting

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@hOpe.6180 said:The modifications should be focused around Rapide Fire, if you nerf traits/spells you nerf the others builds aswell wich is not justified at least in WvW.

And there is more to longbow than Sic 'Em memes. RF certainly does NOT need a nerf. A core Ranger's RF can only really hurt if you truly invest and build around it, and even then it pales in comparison to Soulbeast. The problems clearly arise when Soulbeast comes into the picture. Longbow is actually a really balanced weapon with plenty of counterplay. The only thing that is arguably broken about it is how much it exceeds its listed range. I don't really see your point, because if you nerf Rapid Fire you are nerf literally every Ranger build that uses longbow.

I think balancing the Sic 'Em is tricky because in PvE, its DPS is heavily reliant on the skill. A skill split of course could work in this sense, but I guess I don't really see the skill being used much in PvP/WvW if the modifier was nerfed so heavily. If this were to happen, I think it would need a utility buff, perhaps enhancing its reveal capabilities, or even receiving charges. The skill in its current form is very poorly executed; it is a skill that was implemented specifically and exclusively for pet interaction and never for the actual Ranger. Then Soulbeast was introduced many years later.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:

You’re a platinum rank wvw player, so don’t come off as this high damage stuff being a ranger problem, or a particular skill problem... Or do we need to start posting 1 shot vids from other professions so you understand that damage all around is too high when compared to player health?

Here, think about it before you bring up rangers again... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28024/increasing-ttk-undoing-old-split-changes-and-eliminating-skill-splitting

As I've said in another comment in this thread, I wouldn't have felt the need to write the OP at all if it weren't for how frequent Soulbeast complaints are in the WvW sub. I've probably made like... Two threads in my entire GW2 life time that requested nerfs of any sort, not including this one. Because any other time I really don't care if something is broken or not. I still enjoy myself so I find ways to deal with it.

I knew I'd get some backlash for this and that's understandable. But regardless of how people perceive it, my intent was to defend Ranger, not to complain. I wanted to put forth a suggestion in it's own thread that wasn't attacking Soulbeast outright or making demands for blanket nerfs, I don't want to see one of my favorite professions gutted. It's better to make a realistic suggestion that considers the consequences than to allow the vocal minority to have free reign. ANet may not always listen to those that speak the loudest (or most often) but changes they've made in the past certainly seem inspired by them. So I thought it would be better to say something than nothing, even if makes no difference.

I felt strongly about this because I wanted Soulbeast (Ranger and Druid included) to continue to have relevance in small scale and roaming. I didn't want to see it nerfed in to uselessness and feel like I could have said something. If people want to rant and whine about it without actually saying anything constructive, fine. I've said what I wanted to say.

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No reason a whole Elite Spec or profession should suffer nerfs because of a single skill.

Imo Sic Em should always have been a reveal AoE skill, NOT! a only usable on target skill.Rather than give your pet a power buff it should ping a long range AoE reveal that will unstealth a single player and cause the pet to teleport to them and pin them down for a couple seconds.Could also act as an opening strike for the pet but if the skill fails to detect a player it does nothing and goes on CD.

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:

You’re a platinum rank wvw player, so don’t come off as this high damage stuff being a ranger problem, or a particular skill problem... Or do we need to start posting 1 shot vids from other professions so you understand that damage all around is too high when compared to player health?

Here, think about it before you bring up rangers again...

As I've said in another comment in this thread, I wouldn't have felt the need to write the OP at all if it weren't for how frequent Soulbeast complaints are in the WvW sub. I've probably made like...
Two
threads in my entire GW2 life time that requested nerfs of any sort, not including this one. Because any other time I really don't care if something is broken or not. I still enjoy myself so I find ways to deal with it.

I knew I'd get some backlash for this and that's understandable. But regardless of how people perceive it, my intent was to
defend
Ranger, not to complain. I wanted to put forth a suggestion in it's own thread that wasn't attacking Soulbeast outright or making demands for blanket nerfs, I don't want to see one of my favorite professions gutted. It's better to make a realistic suggestion that considers the consequences than to allow the vocal minority to have free reign. ANet may not always listen to those that speak the loudest (or most often) but changes they've made in the past certainly seem inspired by them. So I thought it would be better to say something than nothing, even if makes no difference.

I felt strongly about this because I wanted Soulbeast (Ranger and Druid included) to continue to have relevance in small scale and roaming. I didn't want to see it nerfed in to uselessness and feel like I could have said something. If people want to rant and whine about it without actually saying anything constructive, fine. I've said what I wanted to say.

You’re getting backlash because most players know that damage/power creep is a thing for all professions in the game, yet you felt really urgent about 1 skill on Ranger... Never mind all the 1shot and multi-burst builds that can kill you in seconds, but ya know, Ranger skill op.

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@MUDse.7623 said:if you make sic em avoidable, most rangers will waste it.Heavens, no, please don't do that. Thieves (and to a lesser degree mesmers) have crazy evasion uptime and missing that targeted reveal would hurt a heck of a lot more than the damage boost. Nerf the damage, not the ability to land the reveal. RNGBless RNGBless RNGBless

~ Kovu

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@Kovu.7560 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:if you make sic em avoidable, most rangers will waste it.Heavens, no, please don't do that. Thieves (and to a lesser degree mesmers) have crazy evasion uptime and missing that targeted reveal would hurt a heck of a lot more than the damage boost. Nerf the damage, not the ability to land the reveal. RNGBless RNGBless RNGBless

~ Kovu

Don't worry, rapid fire still tracks through stealth. That'll teach those pesky thieves!

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@Zephyra.4709 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:if you make sic em avoidable, most rangers will waste it.Heavens, no, please don't do that. Thieves (and to a lesser degree mesmers) have crazy evasion uptime and missing that targeted reveal would hurt a heck of a lot more than the damage boost. Nerf the damage, not the ability to land the reveal. RNGBless RNGBless RNGBless

~ Kovu

Don't worry, rapid fire still tracks through stealth. That'll teach those pesky thieves!

Oh that reminded me, they should further buff sic 'em to strike through evasion frames so that part of the channel might connect. =O

~ Kovu

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@Kovu.7560 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:if you make sic em avoidable, most rangers will waste it.Heavens, no, please don't do that. Thieves (and to a lesser degree mesmers) have crazy evasion uptime and missing that targeted reveal would hurt a heck of a lot more than the damage boost. Nerf the damage, not the ability to land the reveal. RNGBless RNGBless RNGBless

~ Kovu

Don't worry, rapid fire still tracks through stealth. That'll teach those pesky thieves!

Oh that reminded me, they should further buff sic 'em to strike through evasion frames so that part of the channel might connect. =O

~ Kovu

Patch notes confirmed:

  • Rapid fire now hits 20x instead of 10x if used with sic 'em
  • Sic 'em buffed to 9000% dmg and now strikes through evade frames
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@Kovu.7560 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:if you make sic em avoidable, most rangers will waste it.Heavens, no, please don't do that. Thieves (and to a lesser degree mesmers) have crazy evasion uptime and missing that targeted reveal would hurt a heck of a lot more than the damage boost. Nerf the damage, not the ability to land the reveal. RNGBless RNGBless RNGBless

~ Kovu

not much RNG needed for an instant skill.

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@Zephyra.4709 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:if you make sic em avoidable, most rangers will waste it.Heavens, no, please don't do that. Thieves (and to a lesser degree mesmers) have crazy evasion uptime and missing that targeted reveal would hurt a heck of a lot more than the damage boost. Nerf the damage, not the ability to land the reveal. RNGBless RNGBless RNGBless

~ Kovu

Don't worry, rapid fire still tracks through stealth. That'll teach those pesky thieves!

Oh that reminded me, they should further buff sic 'em to strike through evasion frames so that part of the channel might connect. =O

~ Kovu

Patch notes confirmed:
  • Rapid fire now hits 20x instead of 10x if used with sic 'em
  • Sic 'em buffed to 9000% dmg and now strikes through evade frames

Meanwhile lower in the patch notes....

Thief

  • Evading an attack now applies 4s of reveal.

edit-Seriously though, faaar to much love for ranger hate lately. Swagger's got the right of it.

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@Kovu.7560 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:if you make sic em avoidable, most rangers will waste it.Heavens, no, please don't do that. Thieves (and to a lesser degree mesmers) have crazy evasion uptime and missing that targeted reveal would hurt a heck of a lot more than the damage boost. Nerf the damage, not the ability to land the reveal. RNGBless RNGBless RNGBless

~ Kovu

Don't worry, rapid fire still tracks through stealth. That'll teach those pesky thieves!

Oh that reminded me, they should further buff sic 'em to strike through evasion frames so that part of the channel might connect. =O

~ Kovu

Patch notes confirmed:
  • Rapid fire now hits 20x instead of 10x if used with sic 'em
  • Sic 'em buffed to 9000% dmg and now strikes through evade frames

Meanwhile lower in the patch notes....

Thief
  • Evading an attack now applies 4s of reveal.

whats wrong with you?

edit:you see for all i care they dont need to do anything as i dont think that its too strong.yet op suggested a reduction of the damage modifier. to my experience people rarely do slot a reveal skill only for the reveal, usually for the secondary effects. some do slot it when they run into someone using a lot of stealth frequently, but will swap back when they dont encounter that one for a while. warriors for example who have a much harder time against opponents using stealth to kite than rangers, usually dont slot their reveal utilities because their secondary effects are not good enough. i dont think that rangers that can deal better with mesmers and thieves, even without reveal will stick to the skill if the secondary effect gets reduced to 10-15% as the OP suggested.therefor i suggested instead of reducing its effects to make it avoidable. then it is still very reliable as it is instant but it has the chance to fail when spammed mindlessly. didnt know that would be a greater nerf for you than making its damage modifier redundant.

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@Kovu.7560 said:

@"MUDse.7623" said:if you make sic em avoidable, most rangers will waste it.Heavens, no, please don't do that. Thieves (and to a lesser degree mesmers) have crazy evasion uptime and missing that targeted reveal would hurt a heck of a lot more than the damage boost. Nerf the damage, not the ability to land the reveal. RNGBless RNGBless RNGBless

~ Kovu

Don't worry, rapid fire still tracks through stealth. That'll teach those pesky thieves!

Oh that reminded me, they should further buff sic 'em to strike through evasion frames so that part of the channel might connect. =O

~ Kovu

Which reminds me ranger should have more access to reveal while the pet is active (so no merged, no dead pet) . There is no point to have all the weapons with the requeriment of having a target if the target is invisible all the time.

I did like the suggestion of to make sicem an elite, and move to it's right place the skill "RoA" (because after the nerf God knows that skill is only used because there is nothing else worth using in that slot). Problem is we already have 2 "commands" with absurd CD, RoA and S&R.We should ask for this skill (S&R) to increase radius and reduce CD also, at least in WvW and PvE, This skill was a lot of fun before the hammer nerfs which destroyed another possible utility for the Druid at the time. To get gutted because Esports was another of the horrible mistakes the balance team has done for this game.

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@derd.6413 said:have sic' em only affects the pet skills when merged but not the weapon/utility skills

You know. That's actually a really good idea.

@MUD, because the two professions I use reveal against the most have the most evasion frames, oftentimes without much of a tell. I'd rather the reveal just work even if the damage wasn't a thing.

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