Which class needs a nerf asap?

[MithranArkanere.8957]

All of them. All at the same time.

There's way too much damage across the board. The pace of fights needs o be slowed down enough for spectators to be able to see what's going on and newbies to have time to realize what happened to them before they got bursted to death.

All these 1v1 <3s bursts with no warnings obvious enough for newbies and spectators have to go, specially from teleports or stealth.

It has to be done for the sake of the future of the game.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

condi weaver is pretty ridiculous in the right hands.

[ZhouX.8742]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:Holo and CI Mirage.

Everything else has already been nerfed this last patch.The point of the overheat was to punish horrible players who don't know how to stop from overheating (spammers). It now actually takes brain function to acknowledge that you're going to overheat and if you do, you lose a majority of your utility and might end up forced to waste an S to stay alive on top of eating overheat dmg.

This is good balance.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion I suppose. I for one think it's terrible balancing to change a class in a way that does objectively nothing, unless you don't know how to play Holo.

Anet be like: "Watch out guys! Overheating is much worse now!"

And pretty much everyone who's been playing Holo be like: "Kay, thanks. I mean, I overheat like once every 4 matches to begin with, but i'll be even less careless now."...Or at least they would say that, in a perfect world where people don't feign agony; calling this a huge nerf when it isn't anything, but this is not a perfect world.

Holo is fine for the most part.

Why?

Because Spellbreaker exists along with other duelist classes. It's a better dueler role than Holo in itself anyway. If Holo literally outperformed every other dueler role class to the point that it is needed to be taken without question then I could see your point. But other options exist, so it's not. For a class to be OP , it would need to be the ONLY option for it's role to be taken. It's not, there's multiple options to take that are optimal. Is it strong? Yes, but if you tone down just Holo you would need to tone down every other dueler (including Weaver) for it to be fair otherwise Holo just wouldn't be played.

First off, the class bias is real. I understand it's hard not to talk about a class and not appear to have some sort of bias, but it doesn't make for the most effective reasoning. As such, i'll try to be as unbiased as possible in my response.

Secondly, to better describe what I was saying; Holo wasn't nerfed at all this patch. Buffed actually. The overheat changes are only a "nerf" in the sense that it punishes people who aren't familiar with the class and just spam skills, like you said.

If nerfing one side-noder is justification to go ahead and nerf every side-noder in the game, then Holo is long overdue. Every other side-noder has seen one or more major nerfs either in the most recent balance patch, or at the very least since 2018.

Not Holo though. The only minor nerf they had from now until last year was to the stab uptime from forge3. If you don't believe me, go back and read the patch notes for engineer dating now all the way back to 12/11/18, because that's the last time Holo was nerfed properly. Last year.

I don't main holo and actually have more games on Spellbreaker than any other PoF spec. Because of it's dueling prowess, that's what I like to do. So no, there is no class bias except MAYBE outside of Ranger but that is more around the fact that people complain about the class even if it sees virtually no PvP presence, and yes I agree with removing Unblockable from UN on ranger.

But no, I don't main holo but play it occasionally

I don't have a class I main, I pretty much multi-class probably from needing to learn all of them I found something I like in most of them from dueling, and they each have roles that I like to fill based on enemy comps.

I like thief the most, but I hardly complain in favor of or against thief. Why? Because I understand roles and thief has a role it plays perfectly and is actually balanced in that it can offer a counter to mirage (mesmer in general).

Also,

Why would you punish players for playing the class correctly? Nerfing players who spam into overheat and then you complaining and wanting to punish players also for avoiding overheat defeats the purpose of good balance.

It was similar to how they nerfed Full Counter, when it was introduced you just spammed it because the skill alone would change the tide of a 1v1 (and in most cases, a group fight) on top of the secondary effects it gave.

They nerfed it (and it was bugged too) to avoid spamming it to win over matches and now offers a realistic expectation of a skill to bait opponents into a Full Counter that isn't completely brain dead. That's good balance.

These are very few instances where they actually balanced correctly , but these 2 instances are actually good balance decisions because they don't destroy classes into oblivion and erase spammy play.... I wish I could see this same thing across the board, but it's not common.

Chrono? Bad balance, you rework an entire system of an expansion to make it useless in PvP class that nobody even wanted to begin with, I don't think there was a thread that existed around that idea (maybe though)... That's bad balance.

[MrForz.1953]

It's kind of hard to spam into overheat. I've only ever done it because I sometimes thought I had Photonic Blasting Module.

[Iozeph.5617]

I'd vote here but what's the use? Past and present experience have shown the community never gets what it wants in the way it was asked for. And when change does come it's often everything that wasn't asked for. Asking for balance from Anet is the equivalent of phoning in a complaint about the noise from your next door neighbours only to have the police show up and shoot your dog.

[Serenity.6304]

I think CI mirage, spellbreaker (rampage) and holo are overtuned, but since it‘s gonna take a few months til the next nerf, we have to adapt and get used to it...

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@ZhouX.8742 said:I don't main holo and actually have more games on Spellbreaker than any other PoF spec. Because of it's dueling prowess, that's what I like to do. So no, there is no class bias except MAYBE outside of Ranger but that is more around the fact that people complain about the class even if it sees virtually no PvP presence, and yes I agree with removing Unblockable from UN on ranger.

You don't have to play a class to have a bias for or against it.

Like, i'll gladly admit I have a negative bias towards condi builds. I think they're easier and more boring to play as or against than most power builds, and I hardly play them.

On the other end, I don't play Weaver or Thief, but I can easily sympathize with what they've gone through because of the series of negligible buffs and hard nerfs.

Like I said, it's okay to have a bias. Balance wish-lists are like 90% subjective anyway. When it comes to reasoning and rationalizing changes, it's more effective to be more objective and factual though, and the hard truth is that the only nerf Holo had was 2s shave in stability on Forge3 since last year and this latest balance patch didn't change that.

Also,

Why would you punish players for playing the class correctly? Nerfing players who spam into overheat and then you complaining and wanting to punish players also for avoiding overheat defeats the purpose of good balance.

It was similar to how they nerfed Full Counter, when it was introduced you just spammed it because the skill alone would change the tide of a 1v1 (and in most cases, a group fight) on top of the secondary effects it gave.

They nerfed it (and it was bugged too) to avoid spamming it to win over matches and now offers a realistic expectation of a skill to bait opponents into a Full Counter that isn't completely brain dead. That's good balance.

These are very few instances where they actually balanced correctly , but these 2 instances are actually good balance decisions because they don't destroy classes into oblivion and erase spammy play.... I wish I could see this same thing across the board, but it's not common.

Nerf is the principal word there. The FC nerf was an actual % damage nerf, and increase to its CD. The changes to overheat are a fake nerf. It doesn't change anything about the class; it doesn't make it weaker, it only punishes people playing it incompetently.

Overheat should be harder to avoid in general.. That was one of my proposed suggestions. Yes, that punishes everyone playing the class, not just bad players. That's what a nerf is. That's what the changes to FC were, and that's what the overheat changes weren't.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

I voted mesmer, but in truth it doesn't really need a "nerf". It needs a rework to make it more interactive. Currently CI mesmer is, once again, a braindead build that relies on the tried and true scrub strategy of -rotate defenses while spamming skills-. Combining passive unavoidable damage with the ability to attack and defend at the same time is just not a fun build to play against, and requires absolutely no skill to play as. It should be reworked to have roughly the same damage potential, but less reliant on passives and clones and less reliant on invuln/aegis spam.

[Artits.2795]

Salty guardian/ warrior mains demanding that engis/ thiefs and mesmers can never be viable in any way whatsoever. The audacity of those classes to survive their encounters with guardians/ warriors for more than 2-3 seconds.

[Exedore.6320]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:

Necro

: Remove boon strip on scepter #1. Auto-attacks shouldn't be that powerful.

that hasn't been around for a while lol.

Thanks for pointing it out. Removed from my post.

[Emberheart.8426]

@"Dahkeus.8243" said:Eh, I don't think Holo is as bad as a lot of people say it is. Mirage still needs some of the stuns brought under control, but beyond that, I don't think that there's any major outliers in terms of build performance as bad as we've usually seen in the past.

Honestly, what I'd like to see most in the next balance patch is for the devs to finish the goal of adjusting elite specs to have some disadvantage to core specs and balance around this. Ele still doesn't seem to have any disadvantage with their elite specs and Druid has had so many nerfs recently that the pet damage reduction just pushed it completely out of viability. Thief swipe also needs something to make it more unique, such as an evading leap mechanic instead of just being a shorter ranged unblockable steal.

Did I read correctly? Are you claiming that ele doesn't have any trade-offs in its elite specs? I swear there are so many blatantly wrong statements in the forums by people who do not understand the professions that they are talking about. If you understood anything about how core ele is played and the differences with the elite specs you would not be making such a claim. Let's see if I can make you understand.

Weaver might have the biggest trade-offs out of any spec in the game. Maybe the new chrono trade-off is comparable, but I do not play that spec enough to say for certain. First of all, you have the 4 second global cooldown on attunements, that you get instead of the 10 second cooldown on the attunement you swapped from. The benefit of this global cooldown is that you can swap back to the same attunement much quicker than before if you want to. However, if you want to cycle through all of your attunements and then go back to your original attunement, then you take way longer to do this as a weaver. A weaver needs a full 16 seconds to cycle between all attunements (4x4=16). A core ele only needs 10 seconds, which is the cooldown of the first attunement you swapped from. Weaver also has the dual attunement mechanic that gives the spec access to dual skills, but those also come at a cost. Your #4 and #5 weapon skills are always those of your last attunement, which means that there is a 4 second delay if you want to use your #4 and #5 skills to react to something. A core ele has no such delay and can just reach the skills instantly by swapping attunements with no global cooldown. There is also the matter of your single attunement #3 skills being inaccessible unless you attune to the same element twice.

Tempest trade-offs also exist, but they might be a bit less obvious. First of all, I feel like I should mention that you need to wait for 5 seconds after swapping to an attunement if you want to use your overload. This in itself is not a drawback, but it does ensure that by the time you start casting your overload you will likely have already used all the weapon skills of that attunement. Upon use, overloads put their attunement on a 20 second cd, which is twice the normal cd of 10 seconds, instead of having their own cd unlike something such as beastmode of soulbeast. What's worse is that the full 20 second cd applies even if you are interrupted, which is not difficult on a 4 second cast. This is a huge trade-off, especially when you consider that you have likely already used all your attunement skills. If you do not swap to another attunement and stay in the same attunement instead to "cheese" this cd you are left with the terrible ele auto-attacks. Even after this, you could always argue that you are not forced to use an overload as a tempest, which means that is better than core because it has the option to use or not use overloads. However, this is not entirely true. If you do not use overloads, your tempest minors basically do not exist, except half of your grandmaster minor. You are giving up all your minor traits if you choose to never overload. Also, consider that if you have a DPS tempest that never overloads and a DPS core ele, the core ele will easily outDPS the tempest. If you do not use overloads, tempest is simply not that good of a trait line. It would be outclassed by core ele in so many ways. Which means that you need to overload and you need to take the trade-offs. The exception is with some variants of support tempest, but even then you want to use your overloads fairly frequently.

[crepuscular.9047]

need a nerf hammer across the board to tone down the damage

[Loboling.5293]

@BadMed.3846 said:One word - Mirage!

But I see more than one word...

[ZhouX.8742]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"ZhouX.8742" said:I don't main holo and actually have more games on Spellbreaker than any other PoF spec. Because of it's dueling prowess, that's what I like to do. So no, there is no class bias except MAYBE outside of Ranger but that is more around the fact that people complain about the class even if it sees virtually no PvP presence, and yes I agree with removing Unblockable from UN on ranger.

You don't have to play a class to have a bias for or against it.

Like, i'll gladly admit I have a negative bias towards condi builds. I think they're easier and more boring to play as or against than most power builds, and I hardly play them.

On the other end, I don't play Weaver or Thief, but I can easily sympathize with what they've gone through because of the series of negligible buffs and hard nerfs.

Like I said, it's okay to have a bias. Balance wish-lists are like 90% subjective anyway. When it comes to reasoning and rationalizing changes, it's more effective to be more objective and factual though, and the hard truth is that the only nerf Holo had was 2s shave in stability on Forge3 since

last year

and this latest balance patch didn't change that.

Also,

Why would you punish players for playing the class correctly?

Nerfing players who spam into overheat and then you complaining and wanting to punish players also for avoiding overheat defeats the purpose of good balance.

It was similar to how they

nerfed

Full Counter, when it was introduced you just spammed it because the skill alone would change the tide of a 1v1 (and in most cases, a group fight) on top of the secondary effects it gave.

They nerfed it

(and it was bugged too) to avoid spamming it to win over matches and now offers a realistic expectation of a skill to bait opponents into a Full Counter that isn't completely brain dead. That's good balance.

These are very few instances where they actually balanced correctly , but these 2 instances are actually good balance decisions because they don't destroy classes into oblivion and erase spammy play.... I wish I could see this same thing across the board, but it's not common.

Nerf is the principal word there. The FC nerf was an actual % damage nerf, and increase to its CD. The changes to overheat are a fake nerf. It doesn't change anything about the class; it doesn't make it weaker, it only punishes people playing it incompetently.

Overheat should be harder to avoid in general.. That was one of my proposed suggestions. Yes, that punishes everyone playing the class, not just bad players. That's what a nerf is. That's what the changes to FC were, and that's what the overheat changes weren't.

But I just don't have biases towards classes, it really doesn't register for me. It's a mentality that doesn't make sense to me as a player. If I die I analyze why I died and investigate solutions for it , not come to the forums and complain about it.

"It doesn't change anything about the class; it doesn't make it weaker, it only punishes people playing it incompetently." - Surely you can see the error in your thought process on balancing in general. It changes the class, because lower division players will die easier on it, while competent players will be able to play it at it's efficient level. This is good balance without destroying overheat in general they added a gate between spamming and not spamming skills half-hazardly.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@"ZhouX.8742" said:"It doesn't change anything about the class; it doesn't make it weaker, it only punishes people playing it incompetently." - Surely you can see the error in your thought process on balancing in general. It changes the class, because lower division players will die easier on it, while competent players will be able to play it at it's efficient level. This is good balance without destroying overheat in general they added a gate between spamming and not spamming skills half-hazardly.

I'm not an expert on balancing, by any stretch, nor did I ever claim to be, but if what I said is wrong; then hypocrisy is righteous.

Apparently it's okay to nerf everything but Holo over the course of ~8 months.Direct damage reductions and cooldown increases are good balancing so long as it's on other classes, but not on Holo.When it comes to Holo, good balancing is adding stipulations that we agree, are hardly ever met; save for players unfamiliar with the class that spam skills.

And no, I can't say i'm any more convinced that's going to change anything about the class at all. Ime, even gold, silvers, and unranked PvE players coming in to get their dailies have the sense to not overheat. You could play Holo exclusively in PvE and still learn rather quickly how not to do that.

In order for it to change the class at all, the means of overheating would have to be easier like I said before, and like i'll say again now. But then again, what do I know? I gave my two cents already. It's in the poll's hands now.... kind of.

[ZhouX.8742]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"ZhouX.8742" said:"It doesn't change anything about the class; it doesn't make it weaker, it only punishes people playing it incompetently." - Surely you can see the error in your thought process on balancing in general. It changes the class, because lower division players will die easier on it, while competent players will be able to play it at it's efficient level. This is good balance without destroying overheat in general they added a gate between spamming and not spamming skills half-hazardly.

I'm not an expert on balancing, by any stretch, nor did I ever claim to be, but if what I said is wrong; then hypocrisy is righteous.

Apparently it's okay to nerf everything but Holo over the course of ~8 months.Direct damage reductions and cooldown increases are good balancing so long as it's on other classes, but not on Holo.When it comes to Holo, good balancing is adding stipulations that we agree, are hardly ever met; save for players unfamiliar with the class that spam skills.

And no, I can't say i'm any more convinced that's going to change anything about the class at all. Ime, even gold, silvers, and unranked PvE players coming in to get their dailies have the sense to not overheat. You could play Holo exclusively in PvE and still learn rather quickly how not to do that.

In order for it to change the class at all, the means of overheating would have to be easier like I said before, and like i'll say again now. But then again, what do I know? I gave my two cents already. It's in the poll's hands now.... kind of.

It's in nobody's hands really, the balance team doesn't look at these threads and go "hey , they're right!" .. They just get ignored. We're basically just wasting our time arguing.

[Dahkeus.8243]

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@"Dahkeus.8243" said:Eh, I don't think Holo is as bad as a lot of people say it is. Mirage still needs some of the stuns brought under control, but beyond that, I don't think that there's any major outliers in terms of build performance as bad as we've usually seen in the past.

Honestly, what I'd like to see most in the next balance patch is for the devs to finish the goal of adjusting elite specs to have some disadvantage to core specs and balance around this. Ele still doesn't seem to have any disadvantage with their elite specs and Druid has had so many nerfs recently that the pet damage reduction just pushed it completely out of viability. Thief swipe also needs something to make it more unique, such as an evading leap mechanic instead of just being a shorter ranged unblockable steal.

Did I read correctly? Are you claiming that ele doesn't have any trade-offs in its elite specs? I swear there are so many blatantly wrong statements in the forums by people who do not understand the professions that they are talking about. If you understood anything about how core ele is played and the differences with the elite specs you would not be making such a claim. Let's see if I can make you understand.

Weaver might have the biggest trade-offs out of any spec in the game. Maybe the new chrono trade-off is comparable, but I do not play that spec enough to say for certain. First of all, you have the 4 second global cooldown on attunements, that you get instead of the 10 second cooldown on the attunement you swapped from. The benefit of this global cooldown is that you can swap back to the same attunement much quicker than before if you want to. However, if you want to cycle through all of your attunements and then go back to your original attunement, then you take way longer to do this as a weaver. A weaver needs a full 16 seconds to cycle between all attunements (4x4=16). A core ele only needs 10 seconds, which is the cooldown of the first attunement you swapped from. Weaver also has the dual attunement mechanic that gives the spec access to dual skills, but those also come at a cost. Your #4 and #5 weapon skills are always those of your last attunement, which means that there is a 4 second delay if you want to use your #4 and #5 skills to react to something. A core ele has no such delay and can just reach the skills instantly by swapping attunements with no global cooldown. There is also the matter of your single attunement #3 skills being inaccessible unless you attune to the same element twice.

Tempest trade-offs also exist, but they might be a bit less obvious. First of all, I feel like I should mention that you need to wait for 5 seconds after swapping to an attunement if you want to use your overload. This in itself is not a drawback, but it does ensure that by the time you start casting your overload you will likely have already used all the weapon skills of that attunement. Upon use, overloads put their attunement on a 20 second cd, which is twice the normal cd of 10 seconds, instead of having their own cd unlike something such as beastmode of soulbeast. What's worse is that the full 20 second cd applies even if you are interrupted, which is not difficult on a 4 second cast. This is a huge trade-off, especially when you consider that you have likely already used all your attunement skills. If you do not swap to another attunement and stay in the same attunement instead to "cheese" this cd you are left with the terrible ele auto-attacks. Even after this, you could always argue that you are not forced to use an overload as a tempest, which means that is better than core because it has the option to use or not use overloads. However, this is not entirely true. If you do not use overloads, your tempest minors basically do not exist, except half of your grandmaster minor. You are giving up all your minor traits if you choose to never overload. Also, consider that if you have a DPS tempest that never overloads and a DPS core ele, the core ele will easily outDPS the tempest. If you do not use overloads, tempest is simply not that good of a trait line. It would be outclassed by core ele in so many ways. Which means that you need to overload and you need to take the trade-offs. The exception is with some variants of support tempest, but even then you want to use your overloads fairly frequently.

You can argue Weaver to some extent, but the argument is only against being able to swap to the other half of an attunement and even then, the cooldown for swaps is reduced by the elite.

Tempest is the biggest example of not having a penalty for swapping from core. All functionality of core ele is the same, except you get a bonus mechanic when you sit in an attunement for long enough. Your argument about there being an indirect penalty for not using the mechanic doesn't hold any water. By that logic, Druid should have never been nerfed since a druid that doesn't use celestial form is also wasting their traits. Same goes for a berserker that never uses berserk mode.

But the actual point of my post is that the balancing in the direction of the philosophical goal is incomplete. You can nit pick about what parts of that are or are not complete, but that arguing with a tree because you can't see the forest.

[Emberheart.8426]

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Dahkeus.8243 said:Eh, I don't think Holo is as bad as a lot of people say it is. Mirage still needs some of the stuns brought under control, but beyond that, I don't think that there's any major outliers in terms of build performance as bad as we've usually seen in the past.

Honestly, what I'd like to see most in the next balance patch is for the devs to finish the goal of adjusting elite specs to have some disadvantage to core specs and balance around this. Ele still doesn't seem to have any disadvantage with their elite specs and Druid has had so many nerfs recently that the pet damage reduction just pushed it completely out of viability. Thief swipe also needs something to make it more unique, such as an evading leap mechanic instead of just being a shorter ranged unblockable steal.

Did I read correctly? Are you claiming that ele doesn't have any trade-offs in its elite specs? I swear there are so many blatantly wrong statements in the forums by people who do not understand the professions that they are talking about. If you understood anything about how core ele is played and the differences with the elite specs you would not be making such a claim. Let's see if I can make you understand.

Weaver might have the biggest trade-offs out of any spec in the game. Maybe the new chrono trade-off is comparable, but I do not play that spec enough to say for certain. First of all, you have the 4 second global cooldown on attunements, that you get instead of the 10 second cooldown on the attunement you swapped from. The benefit of this global cooldown is that you can swap back to the same attunement much quicker than before if you want to. However, if you want to cycle through all of your attunements and then go back to your original attunement, then you take way longer to do this as a weaver. A weaver needs a full 16 seconds to cycle between all attunements (4x4=16). A core ele only needs 10 seconds, which is the cooldown of the first attunement you swapped from. Weaver also has the dual attunement mechanic that gives the spec access to dual skills, but those also come at a cost. Your #4 and #5 weapon skills are always those of your last attunement, which means that there is a 4 second delay if you want to use your #4 and #5 skills to react to something. A core ele has no such delay and can just reach the skills instantly by swapping attunements with no global cooldown. There is also the matter of your single attunement #3 skills being inaccessible unless you attune to the same element twice.

Tempest trade-offs also exist, but they might be a bit less obvious. First of all, I feel like I should mention that you need to wait for 5 seconds after swapping to an attunement if you want to use your overload. This in itself is not a drawback, but it does ensure that by the time you start casting your overload you will likely have already used all the weapon skills of that attunement. Upon use, overloads put their attunement on a 20 second cd, which is twice the normal cd of 10 seconds, instead of having their own cd unlike something such as beastmode of soulbeast. What's worse is that the full 20 second cd applies even if you are interrupted, which is not difficult on a 4 second cast. This is a huge trade-off, especially when you consider that you have likely already used all your attunement skills. If you do not swap to another attunement and stay in the same attunement instead to "cheese" this cd you are left with the terrible ele auto-attacks. Even after this, you could always argue that you are not forced to use an overload as a tempest, which means that is better than core because it has the option to use or not use overloads. However, this is not entirely true. If you do not use overloads, your tempest minors basically do not exist, except half of your grandmaster minor. You are giving up all your minor traits if you choose to never overload. Also, consider that if you have a DPS tempest that never overloads and a DPS core ele, the core ele will easily outDPS the tempest. If you do not use overloads, tempest is simply not that good of a trait line. It would be outclassed by core ele in so many ways. Which means that you need to overload and you need to take the trade-offs. The exception is with some variants of support tempest, but even then you want to use your overloads fairly frequently.

You can argue Weaver to some extent, but the argument is only against being able to swap to the other half of an attunement and even then, the cooldown for swaps is reduced by the elite.

Tempest is the biggest example of not having a penalty for swapping from core. All functionality of core ele is the same, except you get a bonus mechanic when you sit in an attunement for long enough. Your argument about there being an indirect penalty for not using the mechanic doesn't hold any water. By that logic, Druid should have never been nerfed since a druid that doesn't use celestial form is also wasting their traits. Same goes for a berserker that never uses berserk mode.

But the actual point of my post is that the balancing in the direction of the philosophical goal is incomplete. You can nit pick about what parts of that are or are not complete, but that arguing with a tree because you can't see the forest.

For weaver, you can reduce the attunement cd with the elite but you are replacing another elite to do so and you can only use weave self every 90 seconds.

Tempest is not the same because you ignored that overloads put attunements on a 20 second cd. Celestial form has its own cd that does not affect pets, which makes it irrelevant to my example if you read what I said properly. This is why it received a drawback, though it was a poorly implemented one. Overloads would be equivalent if they were an f5 that does not affect attunement cooldowns and has its own. Because celestial form has its own cd, there is no reason to not use it when you need it. With overloads you have to think about that 20 sec attunement cd and about not being interrupted.

I do understand that their goal of making elite specs all have trade-offs is not complete yet, but I felt that I had to correct the ele portion. I also doubt that they will come anywhere close to achieving this goal even in the next balance patch. They only address a couple of specs every patch.

[MyPuppy.8970]

Ele is a walking tradeoff by nature...

More weapon skills?OK:->you'll get lowest hp pool->and also lowest armor naturally->no weapon swap neither, so less gameplay flexibility->higher CDs->lower skill efficiency->unimpactful elite skills->Get vit or get rekt.

I probably forgot other stuffs. Not complaining though, I think ele is a balanced class as a whole. Sturdy eles can't kill you, DPS eles are the first to go down.

[DonArkanio.6419]

Well, I think it's the E-Specs that need nerfs, not classes.E-Specs add on top of Core, while they should be changing the way class works, rather than adding to it.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:condi weaver is pretty ridiculous in the right hands.

Uh yeah it is.

For some reason no one seems to be talking about this. But I've ran into quite a few Weavers lately that were just strong man. Not only is the sustain good, but if you mess up and get caught with a CC once and have no condi clears left, they can burst you down to 0 health in about 1.5s.

Unless I'm repeatedly running into Grimjack on a dozen alts, I'd dare say that Weaver is actually good now, and possibly a top 3 side node presence.

[Eurantien.4632]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:condi weaver is pretty ridiculous in the right hands.

Uh yeah it is.

For some reason no one seems to be talking about this. But I've ran into quite a few Weavers lately that were just strong man. Not only is the sustain good, but if you mess up and get caught with a CC once and have no condi clears left, they can burst you down to 0 health in about 1.5s.

Unless I'm repeatedly running into Grimjack on a dozen alts, I'd dare say that Weaver is actually good now, and possibly a top 3 side node presence.

It is REALLY hard to tell, isn't it?

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

I take my vote back, Holo is honestly the biggest outlier. 1.5k -2k autos from 1200 range w/ blocks, invulns, invis, stability, imob, great melee damage w/ burst and stupid cc combos because of 25 might constantly. Decent mobility because of the low cd holo leap. Holos downside is " oh overheat." Yeah any player whos played 2 games with holo knows not to overheat.

[Vagrant.7206]

@"MrAmputatoes.6031" said:I take my vote back, Holo is honestly the biggest outlier. 1.5k -2k autos from 1200 range w/ blocks, invulns, invis, stability, imob, great melee damage w/ burst and stupid cc combos because of 25 might constantly. Decent mobility because of the low cd holo leap. Holos downside is " oh overheat." Yeah any player whos played 2 games with holo knows not to overheat.

I love my builds that contain 5 traitlines and 6 utility skills, tbh. Don't nerf it.

[Mbelch.9028]

@Serenity.6304 said:I think CI mirage, spellbreaker (rampage) and holo are overtuned, but since it‘s gonna take a few months til the next nerf, we have to adapt and get used to it...

Spellbreaker rampage was JUST nerfed. It's a strong elite, and I don't think it needs more nerfs right now, otherwise you boot warriors from the meta all together. I'd rather have more diversity and less CI mirage than less diversity and more CI mirage.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:All of them. All at the same time.

There's way too much damage across the board. The pace of fights needs o be slowed down enough for spectators to be able to see what's going on and newbies to have time to realize what happened to them before they got bursted to death.

All these 1v1 <3s bursts with no warnings obvious enough for newbies and spectators have to go, specially from teleports or stealth.

It has to be done for the sake of the future of the game.

I think I speak for most veterans when I say, the game has had the capacity to be fast paced since it was released. D/D ele, S/D (or S/P was more common at the time) thief, warrior hasn't changed much, ect. The playerbase has learned how to min-max for speed and efficiency, and if you take away our ability to play fast and make this a game for toddlers, it's when it's really going to collapse. You'll lose all your veterans and you won't have any guidance for new players. Granted what I'm saying is an extreme. I know you're looking for toning down of instant cast skills, but they've always been there.

@"MrAmputatoes.6031" said:I take my vote back, Holo is honestly the biggest outlier. 1.5k -2k autos from 1200 range w/ blocks, invulns, invis, stability, imob, great melee damage w/ burst and stupid cc combos because of 25 might constantly. Decent mobility because of the low cd holo leap. Holos downside is " oh overheat." Yeah any player whos played 2 games with holo knows not to overheat.

Here's the thing... Holo melts like butter on a stove if you deny them stability. Watch their corona burst, watch their one block, they melt.