Condition damage in pvp

[Ziggityzog.7389]

What is your view on conditions in pvp?Do we have builds that have no skill req deadly condiion spam or are things just fine and there is no need for fixing?

[Alatar.7364]

Condition damage is not overpowered, it just has two sides of an "extreme". Either there is a Condi Build that is OP (usually more so than OP Power build) or there are condi builds that are almost utter garbage. Maybe Sage S/D Weaver (Water line, not Fire weaver) is somewhere in the middle of it.They don't need buff or nerf, they just need tweaks here and there, regarding their application. Sadly this issue stretches across practically all professions so I myself don't actually know what could be done about it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Alatar.7364" said:Condition damage is not overpowered, it just has two sides of an "extreme". Either there is a Condi Build that is OP (usually more so than OP Power build) or there are condi builds that are almost utter garbage. Maybe Sage S/D Weaver (Water line, not Fire weaver) is somewhere in the middle of it.They don't need buff or nerf, they just need tweaks here and there, regarding their application. Sadly this issue stretches across practically all professions so I myself don't actually know what could be done about it.

nerfing cleanse, and nerfing condi. simple solution. when you land 8-10 abilities on a dude and 50 conditions gets not only cleansed but also converted thats a big yikers.

[Alatar.7364]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:Condition damage is not overpowered, it just has two sides of an "extreme". Either there is a Condi Build that is OP

(usually more so than OP Power build)

or there are condi builds that are almost utter garbage. Maybe Sage S/D Weaver

(Water line, not Fire weaver)

is somewhere in the middle of it.They don't need buff or nerf, they just need tweaks here and there, regarding their application. Sadly this issue stretches across practically all professions so I myself don't actually know what could be done about it.

nerfing cleanse, and nerfing condi. simple solution. when you land 8-10 abilities on a dude and 50 conditions gets not only cleansed but also converted thats a big yikers.

That is oversimplified, like a lot, if you just nerfed condi and just nerfed cleanse, then you end up with the exact same scenario.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

I wouldnt say condi damage is overpowered. When fighting a condi peraon is a fight of attrition condi clears vs condi application. For me amyway.I do find that condi application out ways condi clears on almost every fun bursty build i come up with...you should be able to dodge a tick of the condi damage away. Just like u can dodge power hits all day, once condi is on u that it end game. Got 11k life got only 1-2 condi clears...well ur screwed.My honest opinion is that condi damage should NOT be in pvp at all. Its a handicap damage application that benifits the build and not the players skills in the game.

[Tycura.1982]

I won't say all condi is op. Reapplication outweighs cleanse as it should for the most part. Some condition combinations are toxic like confusion and torment together. Burning deals too much damage with no investment into condition damage other than might stacks.BUTI think most people's problem with condi stems from its mixture of mitigation skills and persistent damage. For instance look at scourge. They're full condi and take a lot of effort to survive without a pocket firebrand. On the other hand there are classes like the newly buffed condition thief that have a lot of passive damage by spamming mitigation and mobility. Same goes for specifically mirage not the rest of mesmer. Rip Chrono.Thing is that having outgoing damage while mitigating incoming damage isn't only locked into Condi. See staff thief with it's dodge abuses lately and one shot mirage. I think a part of the complaint stems from condi not being as avoidable as power damage. Take CI mirage as an example for this and ask yourself how many multi hit attacks it has, how many can be avoided with a single dodge, and of those how many apply conditions? Once you take that into account I'd rather fight a one shot mirage because I stand a chance of dodging its burst.

Just my 2 cents.

[praqtos.9035]

Condi weavers complaint? Ye, this degenerate fire weaver need an emergency nerf asap

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:My point is people keep conflating issues with very particular builds with issues with the entire system and damage type.

Again, for some reason when a power build is OP fault lies entirely with that build. When a condi build is strong the entire damage type is broken ? :/ There is some sort of bias / double standard.

Also:

you should be able to dodge a tick of the condi damage away. Just like u can dodge power hits all dayBut then how are the conditions getting on you? From nowhere?

and:

I think a part of the complaint stems from condi not being as avoidable as power damage.It is?

[TheMaverick.6104]

Condis are OK unless you get full stack of it from second 1. Then you’re doen in seconds. On the good side you dont go closer than you have to anymore that fight

[Math.5123]

My issue is how wide the condis are. With the introduction with Firebrand, conversion Holo and to a lesser extent, bear stance. They need to go wide.

Burn guard for example would never be able to kill anything meta related because they are stuck with burning, vuln and a Doom sigil.I would start by removing a lot of different condis from classes like mirage. Remove the cripple, vuln and a damaging Condi for example. No reason they should stack 20 bleed, 15 confusion and 10 torment.

This should happen with a toning down of Firebrand and conversion Holo though.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:Condition damage is not overpowered, it just has two sides of an "extreme". Either there is a Condi Build that is OP

(usually more so than OP Power build)

or there are condi builds that are almost utter garbage. Maybe Sage S/D Weaver

(Water line, not Fire weaver)

is somewhere in the middle of it.They don't need buff or nerf, they just need tweaks here and there, regarding their application. Sadly this issue stretches across practically all professions so I myself don't actually know what could be done about it.

nerfing cleanse, and nerfing condi. simple solution. when you land 8-10 abilities on a dude and 50 conditions gets not only cleansed but also converted thats a big yikers.

That is oversimplified, like a lot, if you

just

nerfed condi and

just

nerfed cleanse, then you end up with the exact same scenario.

that is true, i should specify that edge case spectrum should be toned down

[Yannir.4132]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:My issue is how wide the condis are. With the introduction with Firebrand, conversion Holo and to a lesser extent, bear stance. They need to go wide.

Burn guard for example would never be able to kill anything meta related because they are stuck with burning, vuln and a Doom sigil.I would start by removing a lot of different condis from classes like mirage. Remove the cripple, vuln and a damaging Condi for example. No reason they should stack 20 bleed, 15 confusion and 10 torment.

This should happen with a toning down of Firebrand and conversion Holo though.

There really shouldn't be a class in the game that can push out large numbers of both Torment and Confusion. The combination of the 2 is just way too punishing. While this is not a current issue, I think the devs should be aware that having both Torment and Confusion in a build breeds toxic gameplay.

Revenant is a good example of exactly the opposite of that. While it has plenty of access to Torment, it only has 2 ways of inflicting Confusion which are Banish Enchantment and it's traited version. This is a good design. I'm not sure where along the way they lost that good design intent when thay were making the concept of Mirage. Torment doesn't even make sense if you consider Mirage from a thematical PoV. Sand and glass equals to Bleeding IMO.

So while I'm not advocating for any particular nerfs to any of the condi builds currently present in PvP, I don't think the idea of Mirage using Torment makes sense. So this is coming more from a thematic standpoint, rather than from a balance opinion.

[sephiroth.4217]

Condi is gross but it adds elements to the combat system.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

condi has always been felt lame by the GW2 community even in the vanilla game.

But the game evolves , more condi cleans, more sustain but also more dmg and more condies. IN the current state , only few builds runs condi compared to the old days. So it's more a build/ class balancing issue than really a condi issue Imo.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

You people are doing that thing where you confuse a condition build you hate (probably mirage) with all condition builds again.

[Axl.8924]

Necros have already been nerfed enough. People always complain about condi, but what about insta burst and classes with infinite sustain? Also when is the counter to condis going to be nerfed? im talking about cleanses. You can-t have over nerfed condi classes and no nerfs to cleanses, because that just makes condi completely useless like the way wow warlock afflock is in pvp. Remember agony stack? yeah its not a pvp spec and is terrible because it depends on stack and anyone with cleanse can defeat the dot class without any repercussions, so no no nerfs.

[Falan.1839]

Conditions themselves aren't a problem, bullshit builds like Condi Dardevil that can apply them instantly and passively via tons of traits that proc on dodge and port are.

[saerni.2584]

“Passively” is a bit of straw man.

If the trait pulses without me needing to do anything that is passive.

But if it is tied to an actual ability (an active strike) that isn’t passive, at least any differently than other traits which boost power damage. For example, there are tons of traits with +% damage modifications or that add boons to certain skills. It’s no less passive to get might on critical hit than to add a condition on critical.

And, as has been pointed out, condi as a system of damage is not less avoidable than power damage. Complaints should be specific to certain skills/builds/professions and not to some loose idea of “condi is the problem.”

Which brings me to cleanse. Cleanse is more built into the game than toughness. You can’t build for zero toughness (there is a base value for armor after all). You can build for absolutely zero cleanse and you can’t do that and expect to beat a condition build without avoiding a significant number of attacks or healing a significant amount of HP. Not because condi is somehow too easy to apply. Rather, because it is balanced around some trait or skill or gear being used to cleanse some of the hits you take.

In that sense condi is harder to fight if you either don’t take cleanse or have lots of active cleanse which require more personal effort to activate. Anti-condi passive builds (lots of condi defense in the background) probably won’t find condi categorically difficult because their defense doesn’t require them to think about it as much.

That makes the game more interesting and dynamic because I might as well complain that, without taking mobility skills, I get chased down. Or that I don’t take projectile denial and got shot up at range.

It’s part of the game and the only way to make my above point about passive versus active cleanse moot is to reduce cleanse to zero and rebalance condition application based on that. Oh, how all the condi-critics would complain then...

[Falan.1839]

It's not a straw man. If you proc bullshit amounts of poison on a 900 range port+immob with no cooldown and several more on each AA or you apply 3 different conditions just by dodging it's as good as passive, even though it might not techanically pulse without doing anything.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Falan.1839 said:It's not a straw man. If you proc kitten amounts of poison on a 900 range port+immob with no cooldown and several more on each AA or you apply 3 different conditions just by dodging it's as good as passive, even though it might not techanically pulse without doing anything.

how is it any different from warrior hitting on dodge or rev dealing dmg by teleporting ?

[LegendaVagyok.9132]

Are we still complaining about condis these times when probably 4 builds are capable to deal something when literally every spec has now tons of active def / condi removal and every other post is about power creep?! Lol just lol, the problem is around application which is a different thing, of course there are unfair matchups and some classes are having edge against others but what a kitten now... why pushing 3 skills in a burst combo which costs you 80% of life is any better than damage over time whilst you can cleanse... please move on.

[LegendaVagyok.9132]

@sephiroth.4217 said:Condi is gross but it adds elements to the combat system.

People fail to realize how important the question of build diversity, wish there would be more viable out of meta options for us.

Having issues against condi builds, how about multi class and switch as necessary to counter the other comp? Waaaait that’s unimaginable.

[Falan.1839]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Falan.1839 said:It's not a straw man. If you proc kitten amounts of poison on a 900 range port+immob with no cooldown and several more on each AA or you apply 3 different conditions just by dodging it's as good as passive, even though it might not techanically pulse without doing anything.

how is it any different from warrior hitting on dodge or rev dealing dmg by teleporting ?

Warri Dodge is equally dumb (and so was minesweeper holo, but at least that got nerfed), rev portengages have cds at least and can be dodged.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Falan.1839 said:It's not a straw man. If you proc kitten amounts of poison on a 900 range port+immob with no cooldown and several more on each AA or you apply 3 different conditions just by dodging it's as good as passive, even though it might not techanically pulse without doing anything.

Its a strawman. Power player spams power attacks at 20k @ 900 yards mitigated by toughness, cony player spams 20k over 5 seconds mitigated with removal. No difference.

[UNOwen.7132]

I dont think Condi damage is broken, but I think its design is suboptimal. Either you have enough condi removal and they dont do a whole lot, or you dont and they kill you. The problem is that because of condi removal the damage is overtuned compared to power builds, while also often being a lot harder to actually avoid. With power builds, you know what their big hits are that you need to stop (stuff like Arc Divider on Warrior or Deaths Judgement on Deadeye). With Condi, often all of their hits are big hits, and if you dodge it the next one just applies the condis instead.