It's Time To Let Go of This Most Useless Character

[Linken.6345]

@Brother.1504 said:Simple mentally here guys. Braham is in our party. He’s a guardian. He’s a support guardian. He stays.

Rox is a ranger with a devourer pet and melee ranges with a short bow. So party kicked.

Kasmeer is a mesmer so shes been nerfed like 5 times since last time she was in the story. She can stay we may need a portal to end of a JP.

Marjory is still spec’d reaper instead of scourge for boon strips and barriers. She can stay as generic dps. Watch the ARCdps. Maybe kick later.

Canach is a warrior. He stays.

Rytlock is a herald. Sword dps and boon support. He stays.

The answer is obvious.

I thought canach was a engineer.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

I think Braham would be more interesting if he had a journey (thru a rift) not unlike what Rytlock had in the mists except have everyone looking for him, especially Rox who gets wind of it. But a twist would be that he comes back old. His journey was back in time to ancient days of the Norn where he spent decades. His entire personality could shift to that of a wizened old Norn who knows ancient secrets about the dragons. There is a whole lot they could do with that.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

How can anyone not like Braham? He HAS HAIR AGAIN!!!

But seriously, I think most players were turned off by his behaviour in S3, understandable thought it might have been, but why all the hate on him now? I thought drunken Braham was hysterical, and maybe it was because my commander is a human male, but the voice acting was dripping with resignation tinged with amusement - I found it very sweet, almost as if the commander was expressing gratitude that, while drunken Braham is a bit cringy, at least he is back (with hair!) from the darkness we saw him in S3.

All of that aside, if you've finished the story in the Prologue, it makes perfect sense WHY Braham needed to be there.

I hated Hayden Christensen's portrayal of Anakin in Episode 2 - talk about cringy stalker'ish behaviour. And while I would have been happy if that would have been the last we saw of 'Anni', he kind of needed to be in Episode 3, right?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:The character provokes emotions in people. That alone is enough of a reason to keep him.People were saying the same about Scarlet. That still didn't make her a good character or good antagonist.

I was no fan of Braham, even less after his tantrum in LWS3. In hindsight I have to say, I get where the authors were coming from, and any one who has lost someone close they loved might too. Was it narratively given enough room? Maybe not.

As far as Brahams bumbling and drunkeness this epilogue, all I have to ask people who gelt embarassed: have you been sober around drunk people?

Ask yourself, were you embarassed due to the acting and writing, or because Braham in character and context of the world was embarassing your squad? The second case would mean the authors got it right.My problem with Braham is that he's the current iconic Norn. And his entire behaviour makes the whole race nothing more than a joke. Let's be honest - Braham's now the Jarjar of this story. A comedic interlude. And one that actually isn't even needed, and doesn't add anything positive.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I hated Hayden Christensen's portrayal of Anakin in Episode 2 - talk about cringy stalker'ish behaviour. And while I would have been happy if that would have been the last we saw of 'Anni', he kind of needed to be in Episode 3, right?You're saying it as if SW episode 3 was any better.

[Anodic.6712]

I wonder how many people here actually have experience in writing novels.

[Astralporing.1957]

@AnodicShadow.3647 said:I wonder how many people here actually have experience in writing novels.I don't need an experience in writing novels to not like some parts of the story or consider it bad writing. Just as i don't need to have experience in cooking to realize something tastes awful. Or experience in architecture to notice the roof is leaking.

[Anodic.6712]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@AnodicShadow.3647 said:I wonder how many people here actually have experience in writing novels.I don't need an experience in writing novels to not like some parts of the story or consider it bad writing. Just as i don't need to have experience in cooking to realize something tastes awful. Or experience in architecture to notice the roof is leaking.

I think you're looking a bit too deeply at my post. It's as surface level as it looks. There are no deeper implications there. Literally just wondering how many people here have ever tried to write a novel before.

[yann.1946]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The character provokes emotions in people. That alone is enough of a reason to keep him.People were saying the same about Scarlet. That still didn't make her a good character or good antagonist.

I was no fan of Braham, even less after his tantrum in LWS3. In hindsight I have to say, I get where the authors were coming from, and any one who has lost someone close they loved might too. Was it narratively given enough room? Maybe not.

As far as Brahams bumbling and drunkeness this epilogue, all I have to ask people who gelt embarassed: have you been sober around drunk people?

Ask yourself, were you embarassed due to the acting and writing, or because Braham in character and context of the world was embarassing your squad? The second case would mean the authors got it right.My problem with Braham is that he's the current iconic Norn. And his entire behaviour makes the whole race nothing more than a joke. Let's be honest - Braham's now the Jarjar of this story. A comedic interlude. And one that actually isn't even needed, and doesn't add anything positive.

Why do people keeping placing the fact that he is norn above his character?

I would argue that his actions in this patch made a lot of sense as a character and as a norn.

It would think that it would be a bad thing if a character to be just a stereotype.

Would you have less problems with Braham if they introduced a new norn into the party?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:You're saying it as if SW episode 3 was any better.

No, I'm saying that his character was pivotal to the plot, same as is the case with Braham's character with how ANET is developing the story going forward into S5.

The OP describes his character as "useless". The plot of Prologue says otherwise.

That said, it could be argued that Braham is now superfluous to the plot having done 'his part', so he should keep an eye out for any piano's suspended by cable overhead. Still I can see him trying to reconcile what happened to him in future episodes.

[whoeverxwins.1279]

@"Thalimae.3406" said:OP is ranting a lot but I have a hard time grasping any substantial criticism beyond "I don't like drunk people" which, okay, sure. You don't have to.

The point of Braham is that he's a young immature Norn. He had a bad reaction to his mother's death which led to a fall out with our character, he then went off to do his own thing for a while, then came back to help us again and eventually had a chance to deal with his grief which led to a reconciliation with our character. And now that this is dealt with he's letting his hair down for a party. That is all pretty straight forward character development.

Even more so in this prologue he's not just getting drunk for the sake of it. He's also the victim of Rangar's scheming. Towards the end it becomes clear that Ryland's mission was to get him drunk and get his bow so that Rangar can set his plan into motion. (To what exact end is not yet clear but the implication being that he wants to subdue or somehow ally with Jormag with the help of Braham's bow.)

So it all ties back into the main plot and the purpose is actually not to show what a fun dude Braham is. If that's all you got from the episode you weren't paying attention.

I do wish we had the option to slap him. Not always say, "Aw, it's ok." Remember being able to slap the obnoxious reporter in Mass Effect 2? Yeah, that felt good.

[Thalimae.3406]

@whoeverxwins.1279 said:

@"Thalimae.3406" said:OP is ranting a lot but I have a hard time grasping any substantial criticism beyond "I don't like drunk people" which, okay, sure. You don't have to.

The point of Braham is that he's a young immature Norn. He had a bad reaction to his mother's death which led to a fall out with our character, he then went off to do his own thing for a while, then came back to help us again and eventually had a chance to deal with his grief which led to a reconciliation with our character. And now that this is dealt with he's letting his hair down for a party. That is all pretty straight forward character development.

Even more so in this prologue he's not just getting drunk for the sake of it. He's also the victim of Rangar's scheming. Towards the end it becomes clear that Ryland's mission was to get him drunk and get his bow so that Rangar can set his plan into motion. (To what exact end is not yet clear but the implication being that he wants to subdue or somehow ally with Jormag with the help of Braham's bow.)

So it all ties back into the main plot and the purpose is actually not to show what a fun dude Braham is. If that's all you got from the episode you weren't paying attention.

I do wish we had the option to slap him. Not always say, "Aw, it's ok." Remember being able to slap the obnoxious reporter in Mass Effect 2? Yeah, that felt good.

Remember when our characters had different personalities? It's been so long... (I realise that it was probably removed for a reason, either due to noodle code or it becoming too complicated to cater to 10 distinct personalities. But I still like the general idea.)

Even if it won't have too much influence on the story I would totally be fine if we had more options that would add some nuance and if you don't like a particular character you could react colder and harsher to their shenanigans. (Or, of course, more friendly if you really like them.) These kind of answers still pop up every now and then so I guess a little flavour could still work.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@ScyeRynn.4218 said:It's clear that Anet is unable to let go of their obsession with Braham. The most unlikable, useless character in their story and after years of players asking to get rid of him and stop wasting time and development on him what do they do? They devote and waste even more on him.

I rarely do this but, what are you talking about? The character is showing change and depth over time. Give a +1 to the writing that they were able to make some players upset with the character last season but they likewise showed growth. Fine with Braham.

[Mewcifer.5198]

Hear me out a second:I felt like the drunk-dialing was actually sort of good writing.

It let us know that Ryland was with Braham every step of the way. It let us know just how drunk he had gotten. It showed us Ryland encouraging him to drink. It showed us Ryland encouraging a fight. It told us the story of why Braham was in jail, rather than just having us be called to go get him. Which might not seem important to really know until later, when we realize that Ryland took his bow. The whole thing was a set up. But because people were so annoyed at the "omg Braham is drunk on the intercom" "omg Braham threw up and I am uncomfortable" they never stopped to think about how Ryland was behaving or what it might mean. It was information we needed later cleverly disguised as nothing more than a "lol this guy is drunk" gag.

[Ashen.2907]

@AnodicShadow.3647 said:I wonder how many people here actually have experience in writing novels.

I dont have any experience as an aeronautical engineer either, but I will not get into the aircraft with the wing falling off.

[Anodic.6712]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@AnodicShadow.3647 said:I wonder how many people here actually have experience in writing novels.

I dont have any experience as an aeronautical engineer either, but I will not get into the aircraft with the wing falling off.

I think you missed my followup post.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@AnodicShadow.3647 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@AnodicShadow.3647 said:I wonder how many people here actually have experience in writing novels.

I dont have any experience as an aeronautical engineer either, but I will not get into the aircraft with the wing falling off.

I think you missed my followup post.

Actually I think both @Ashen.2907 and @Astralporing.1957 understood your post pretty well.Any good writing needs to provoke a reaction and that reaction can be good or bad.. it need not be any deeper than that to be honest.I wonder how many players actually sit and read a good novel or a bad one for that matter and come away without reaction to it.

If a book is so poorly thought out, so lacking in content, direction and offers nothing to the reader to react to then I say that is a poor novel, but the fact we are all saying this and that, offering reaction to the character and ANETs narrative direction means we each got to portray some kind of emotion or reaction, but what some might well be missing is plot.. like @Mewcifer.5198 said above.Remember this is a prologue, it is laying the foundation for the coming narrative and Braham (as much as I would not miss the hissy Norn personally) is being placed front and centre into the plot in a way that not only offers some comedic personality punch that maybe isn't so alien to the race, but opens the doorway into a new deception and a new character that in turn relates to Rytlocks story and the unfolding of the IBS.. it is early days in this SAGA, maybe too early to judge any character or plot or narrative as a whole just yet imo.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Brother.1504 said:Simple mentally here guys. Braham is in our party. He’s a guardian. He’s a support guardian. He stays.

Rox is a ranger with a devourer pet and melee ranges with a short bow. So party kicked.

Kasmeer is a mesmer so shes been nerfed like 5 times since last time she was in the story. She can stay we may need a portal to end of a JP.

Marjory is still spec’d reaper instead of scourge for boon strips and barriers. She can stay as generic dps. Watch the ARCdps. Maybe kick later.

Canach is a warrior. He stays.

Rytlock is a herald. Sword dps and boon support. He stays.

The answer is obvious.

If Taimi doesnt ditch those Golemancer runes soon and spec to Scrapper, she is gone too.

[Agrotera.1254]

@"Mewcifer.5198" said:Hear me out a second:I felt like the drunk-dialing was actually sort of good writing.

It let us know that Ryland was with Braham every step of the way. It let us know just how drunk he had gotten. It showed us Ryland encouraging him to drink. It showed us Ryland encouraging a fight. It told us the story of why Braham was in jail, rather than just having us be called to go get him. Which might not seem important to really know until later, when we realize that Ryland took his bow. The whole thing was a set up. But because people were so annoyed at the "omg Braham is drunk on the intercom" "omg Braham threw up and I am uncomfortable" they never stopped to think about how Ryland was behaving or what it might mean. It was information we needed later cleverly disguised as nothing more than a "lol this guy is drunk" gag.

This! It wasn't about Braham getting drunk. It was about him thinking he has found a new friend and how that new friend betrays him in the worst way. Having Braham drunk dialing us took us through it step by step so we know exactly what happened and at the end we know why.

And let's not forget, that isn't just Braham's bow, that was Eir's bow, his Mom's bow, so it means much more to him.

Someone in an earlier post mentioned something about Bangar thinking that all that he needs is Braham's bow to get Jormag. He doesn't realize that it wasn't the bow that cracked the tooth, it was Braham.

Also, does Bangar think he can tame, or take control of, Jormag? That is what it sounded like to me. The whole "the Commander has an Elder Dragon so we need one" thing?

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@ScyeRynn.4218 said:

@Palador.2170 said:Let's be clear, I don't like Braham. For a long time, I've wanted him dropped from the story. And him getting drunk in the current story? Yeah, he pretty much ignored the reminder that he was representing our group there.

But... he did have someone TRYING to get him drunk, so maybe that's not entirely his fault. And for the upcoming story, if we're going to learn something about the Spirits of the Wild, it may be best to have an immature norn with us. This way the player (and the commander, if need be) can learn about the spirits while Braham is getting lectured by wiser norn. It might give him a chance to grow up some, too.

It's completely irrelevant who or what caused him to be drunk. The point is that it's being used as a way to further their agenda with Braham as a caricature and not a character. This placeholder journey with Braham has been going on with his character for a long time now and it's unfortunate to see a character that started with so much potential reduced to an empty gimmick.

No they are furthering the agenda of the story.. or are you missing the fact he was being prompted to drink more, fight and.. loosing the heirloom of his family , to which end we do not yet know other than the leader of this Charr dragonhunt now holds it with the instigator apparent by his side.I think your trying to read far too much into the Braham character at this stage of what is just the prologue.I see this as a way for Braham to open up the Norn part of this story and for him to begin maturing into a more solid, focused member of the group, at least I hope for that.I think we get it, you don't like the character or the personality that has been written into him thus far, but your missing the point somewhat in that Braham at a young age has had to deal with some pretty tough stuff that even those of greater years and maturity would also find hard to deal with.. this may be his chance to grow as a player in this story, this game.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@ScyeRynn.4218 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:I have no issues with Braham.

The more reaction he provokes, the more the writers will feel justified in him.

I'm sure they would. That's part of the problem with them and the point of this thread. Gimmick is the intention over substance.

Also, i like parsleyIncluding the plastic version solely meant to decorate your plate?

Never been in any restaurant using fake parsley before. I'd still prob like it mind you, I just wouldn't like to eat it ;)

I don't necessarily agree with your other point. Generating a reaction, esp an intended one isn't an example of amateurish or gimmicky writing. I willing to concede most of the story has been of poor writing quality, but a lot of what I see from people's complaints about specific characters come from a dislike rather than an actual issue with the writing.

People toss around terms about bad writing a lot, when what they mean is they didn't like them. Not liking them is perfectly reasonable and acceptable.

For example

• Braham acting out after his mother was correct behaviour given his background and how he had finally started to feel a connection with a parent he'd rejected due to her Legend overshadowing him. That was twhen he's still young and immature enough to have raw emotion. It made him dislikable, but I wouldn't argue it was bad writing. In the end it allowed for some measure of redemption and characters development. The problem was, people kicked up because of his terrible attitude. And that was exactly what Anet had intended for that character at that time.

• Braham cracking Jormag's tooth in a throwaway cutscene rather than building towards it and relegating something which is entrenched in the culture and mythology of a race to an afterthought and barely referred to again for 2.5 story arcs is bad writing. Very bad writing.

We are never getting high quality writing in an MMO. No MMO has it (although I'd argue Secret World prob did it best for the style it was using and genre it was doing it in) and there are various reasons for it - you have a lot of writers coming and going over time, with a story that constantly changes as time goes on due to different writers and feedback from players. Expectations need to be tempered in this way and the diversity of the playerbase means understanding the difference between what is actually bad and what is just not individually liked

This is a perfectly reasonable explanation, though I would say the quality of any story is largely subjective to the individual and because of that diverse playerbase ANET have to incorporate a little bit of wiggle room within each of the characters own arcs and to date I think they haven't done such a bad job.. not perfect by any measure, but then again what is perfect.

[mercury ranique.2170]

@ScyeRynn.4218 said:

@"mercury ranique.2170" said:There are several things wrong with the OP's post. The first being that he claims to be talking bout everyone, while this is certainly not true. There are people who dislike Braham, but just as much as there are people disliking any other member of the living world story. (a good example would be Taime, whom is loved and hated at the same time.

There is a lot of disliking in the post, but not where he would be bad or wrong. It is all about personal taste and has nothing to do with actual feedback about the writing. So any good reason to let him go is missing. (and yes there can be made good points about any character as they misfit someones personality and reacts to ones irritation, but that doesnt validate as a reason, im talking about feedback about the writing.)

This is incorrect. The OP (also known as me) did not claim that "everybody" had the same opinion of Braham. Using words like "players" and "we" loosely and undefined is not claiming everyone. It could mean a majority of players, a large portion of players, or a small handful of players. And did you just assume my gender? :O There are far more than several things wrong with your post including incorrect claims, failed comprehension, assumptions, spelling and word usage, and an overall lack of anything relevant to the thread and its topic.

No I did not assume your gender, OP as a term is genderless and addressed as a male, it is a common term and nothing personal.And you actually did claim to speak on behalf of more people then yourself, which in itself is bad reasoning to start with.You fail to adress the real issue, namely that you posts lacks constructive feedback and is given as a very coloured personal opinion with claims of being generic and not personal.

[Handsel.2891]

I don't necessarily like him, either. I also don't think he is badly written just because I don't like him. He had a fit after his mother was brutally murdered in front of his own eyes. That alone explains to me why he behaves erratically and why the Commander supports him all the way, nonetheless. Everybody has a drunk uncle who is only invited to a family gathering because he is... well, family. I look at Braham a little bit like that.

[Astralporing.1957]

@yann.1946 said:Would you have less problems with Braham if they introduced a new norn into the party?New Norn? Nope. But if Braham was human, i'd think him far less pathetic (and a failure) than he is as a Norn.

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:Any good writing needs to provoke a reaction and that reaction can be good or bad.. it need not be any deeper than that to be honest.That's true, any good writing should provoke reactions in readers. That however doesn't mean that any writing that provokes a reaction is good.

I wonder how many players actually sit and read a good novel or a bad one for that matter and come away without reaction to it.As you have noticed, bad novels can provoke reactions as well. It doesn't make them any less bad though.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@"Mewcifer.5198" said:Hear me out a second:I felt like the drunk-dialing was actually sort of good writing.

It let us know that Ryland was with Braham every step of the way. It let us know just how drunk he had gotten. It showed us Ryland encouraging him to drink. It showed us Ryland encouraging a fight. It told us the story of why Braham was in jail, rather than just having us be called to go get him. Which might not seem important to really know until later, when we realize that Ryland took his bow. The whole thing was a set up. But because people were so annoyed at the "omg Braham is drunk on the intercom" "omg Braham threw up and I am uncomfortable" they never stopped to think about how Ryland was behaving or what it might mean. It was information we needed later cleverly disguised as nothing more than a "lol this guy is drunk" gag.

This. ^^^^ Got it in one.

[Ashantara.8731]

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:From that standpoint, his insecurity-fueled tantrum made sense.

It was just a bit too much.

As for him being a Norn, listening to someone vomitting is immature/lowbrow writing and does nothing for the story or for the character. It's plain disgusting.