Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds

Mikhael.2391 · October 12, 2019

@Aspen Tie.5084 said:
@Mikhael.2391 said:
I give the necro and guardian example (not fb elite) same skill lvl players will need that one build to demy these 2 anything you bring against them.

I see some previous posts how you think necros get the short end of the stick and I really can't comment in regards to that. Guardian, however, regardless of elite, is not a victim to this. Unless I am misunderstanding you, and your saying guardian/ necro burst is undeniable?

edit: grammar

I meant to say that necro / guardian run out of options rotations / survival faster than any other class if survive long enough through a fight.

Necro being way worst than guardian, damage wise core guardian has one shot build and necro power also has very good damage but is useless with not passive defensives, usefull access to stability and HORRIBLE cast times. That makes the class unconfortable

Dawdler.8521 · October 12, 2019

@Mikhael.2391 said:
@Dawdler.8521 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Dawdler.8521 said:Here is the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but no one will admit:
Any class can bring any other class down at least 50% hp
which means that
2 vs 1 is always a winnable scenario and the core of what drives WvW as a game mode - if you cant beat them, bring a friend.
If you fail at any part of this scenario, you got outplayed.

This isn't true.

proceeds to describe exactly how its true

Despite builds having more success against other certain builds none of them despite having the upper hand should be completely OPClasses are not builds. I did not say a word about builds. If you brought a certain build that fails against another certain build, let me refer you to the last part of the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but

definetly

no one will admit:

You got outplayed.

Mikhael.2391 · October 12, 2019

@Dawdler.8521 said:
@Mikhael.2391 said:
@Dawdler.8521 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Dawdler.8521 said:Here is the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but no one will admit:
Any class can bring any other class down at least 50% hp
which means that
2 vs 1 is always a winnable scenario and the core of what drives WvW as a game mode - if you cant beat them, bring a friend.
If you fail at any part of this scenario, you got outplayed.

This isn't true.

proceeds to describe exactly how its true

Despite builds having more success against other certain builds none of them despite having the upper hand should be completely OPClasses are not builds. I did not say a word about builds. If you brought a certain build that fails against another certain build, let me refer you to the last part of the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but

definetly

no one will admit:

You got outplayed.

You are right, I meant to write classes ofc.

MithranArkanere.8957 · October 12, 2019

@Strider Pj.2193 said:
@Mikhael.2391 said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?

Many of those ‘one shot builds’ are developed that way because of their damage traits and buffs to allow them to provide DPS in raids. Many of us have asked for skill splits on a higher magnitude than what is currently in play, and the general sense from the Devs has been that the skills can only be split so much.[..]

That could require reworking critical hits altogether to avoid effect over-stacking.For example, critical damage could be a separate damage bonus instead replacing the base damage, so they can't also stack with other damage bonuses, except bonuses that specifically increase critical damage.

Of course that would probably mean a great DPS loss in PvE, and having to adjust the health values in raids if people are no longer able to complete them or they become too hard in average, but it's just numeric values. It should not be exceedingly hard or time consuming.

Once a critical rework is out of the way, further balance for competitive modes should become at least a bit easier thanks to the reduction of the effects of possible combinations of stacked damage bonus effects.

Aspen Tie.5084 · October 12, 2019

I play hammer core guard in WvW and I don't feel handicapped. Some fights might be a little more tedious than others but, I don't ever walk into a fight expecting to lose - if I do, I commend that player. I rotate my cd's fairly well and fights are usually fairly competitive. As far as being one-shotted, I don't think I've ever been 100-0 without being able to defend myself. If I have, it is so incredibly rare - I probably laughed and shrugged it off while making a snide remark.

Perhaps, a few profession/builds/classes/who gives fuck require more user input and awareness than others and this is where the balance issue originates from. Some games have a skill level rating when choosing profession, class, etc... What if anet implemented a system like this? I'm not trying to discredit anyone, but what would happen if: classes that seem to get bullied, considered under-powered, or have deficiencies were labeled/ranked as 'skill level: high' or 'play-style: hard' ? This would nip balance right in the butt if the player was made aware beforehand 'your going to have to really try hard and work your ass off.'

edit: I like to proofread after I submit :)

Gop.8713 · October 12, 2019

@Dawdler.8521 said:
@Gop.8713 said:
@Dawdler.8521 said:Here is the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but no one will admit:
Any class can bring any other class down at least 50% hp
which means that
2 vs 1 is always a winnable scenario and the core of what drives WvW as a game mode - if you cant beat them, bring a friend.
If you fail at any part of this scenario, you got outplayed.

This isn't true.

proceeds to describe exactly how its true

Ikr? Couldn't have been better if Alanis Morisette had written a song about it . . .

Strider Pj.2193 · October 12, 2019

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:
@Strider Pj.2193 said:
@Mikhael.2391 said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?

Many of those ‘one shot builds’ are developed that way because of their damage traits and buffs to allow them to provide DPS in raids. Many of us have asked for skill splits on a higher magnitude than what is currently in play, and the general sense from the Devs has been that the skills can only be split so much.[..]

That could require reworking critical hits altogether to avoid effect over-stacking.For example, critical damage could be a separate damage bonus instead replacing the base damage, so they can't also stack with other damage bonuses, except bonuses that specifically increase critical damage.

Of course that would probably mean a great DPS loss in PvE, and having to adjust the health values in raids if people are no longer able to complete them or they become too hard in average, but it's just numeric values. It should not be exceedingly hard or time consuming.

Once a critical rework is out of the way, further balance for competitive modes should become at least a bit easier thanks to the reduction of the effects of possible combinations of stacked damage bonus effects.

It may not take much. Or with spaghetti code (so we’ve been told) it may not be that easy lol,

But there has been an unwillingness to do this for some reason.

Mikhael.2391 · October 12, 2019

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:
@Strider Pj.2193 said:
@Mikhael.2391 said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?

Many of those ‘one shot builds’ are developed that way because of their damage traits and buffs to allow them to provide DPS in raids. Many of us have asked for skill splits on a higher magnitude than what is currently in play, and the general sense from the Devs has been that the skills can only be split so much.[..]

That could require reworking critical hits altogether to avoid effect over-stacking.For example, critical damage could be a separate damage bonus instead replacing the base damage, so they can't also stack with other damage bonuses, except bonuses that specifically increase critical damage.

Of course that would probably mean a great DPS loss in PvE, and having to adjust the health values in raids if people are no longer able to complete them or they become too hard in average, but it's just numeric values. It should not be exceedingly hard or time consuming.

Once a critical rework is out of the way, further balance for competitive modes should become at least a bit easier thanks to the reduction of the effects of possible combinations of stacked damage bonus effects.

As i also use core guard hammer and one shot i have one shoted other guardians and dh aswell after the first block. Doing between 20k to 33k insta damage is un avoidable if caught of guard ;)

Caedmon.6798 · October 13, 2019

@Mikhael.2391 said:
@"subversiontwo.7501" said:All I hear are your tears dripping to the ground. I think there is a general consensus over that damage (and healing) is overtuned relative damage mitigation, however, you are providing nothing that could create a sensible discussion of that. You are just complaining about people who kill you because you are unable to counterplay them. There's a huge difference between whining about getting killed and making sensible and factual arguments that could further the balance of the mode. So I agree that there is an underlying discussion to be had about balance but you are just going
boohoo classes
, that's not helpful.

I am one of those peoples that use one shot builds, but i did not start playing the game as one of those classes, I was forced by the lack of balance in wvw.

If you jump to conclusions that a person is crying at least make sure that they do not speak the truth.

I have tried and asked many other better players than me for ex to use a necro against a thief/mesmer,warrior,ranger, using the most broken builds and not the best necro player i could find would win at all unless one of the others made a huge mistake.

Kindly reply with useful feedback now if you please and maybe point out what could be done to fix the matter and i will continue to discuss it further with you or just ignore me and write another joyful comment and I will ignore it.

Thank you

Because a Ranger/Thief on DE and Mesmer are all a hardcounter to Nec, Warri can be an issue for Necs aswell due to the amounts of resist but i dont think they are a hard counter. Thats just how it is,Nec has massive issues vs range no matter what spec they're on, and a Warri "can" rotate his resists + shake it off well enough to get you down before you become a problem. And unless youre in a closed off environment,aka guildhall your chances to win vs a ranged spec on your nec are next to none. Nec is incredible in the blob meta but it's not exactly an 1on1 spec.

Virdo.1540 · October 13, 2019

It shouldnt even be different between PvE and WvW/PvP because if someone is an Overpowered class in PvE, its in other gamemodes op too
The same if something is too weak

All the differences make some classes to almost complete new classes! With different cooldowns and even skills that do 100% more damage in pve, but in WvW almost nothing

kraai.7265 · October 13, 2019

at the start of this year, sick of beating my head against the wall with my custom roaming builds, i made the broken build of the moment with each of my classes, i play everything except ele and necro

and let me tell, i've been playing for 4 years straight, mostly focused on wvw and i agree 100% with this guy, i really hate the state of the game, it's been so dumbed down it feels as a completely different game from core gw2, or even hot, beeing forced to play this lame cheesy builds like condi thief, malicious backstab, condi mirage, unkillable spellbreaker when it was a thing, kait master SB, holo god mode, just so you can compete against the same spammy, cheesy, annoying unkillable builds made this game a shit show, every fight is eternal, either you get kaited down and killed, or you see them run away, no one wants to die, and their builds allow them not to, that and that stupid warclaw in wvw which almost killed any interaction between players

idk if you guys remember but back then in order to provide boons, we had to lay aoe and use combos on them, there were no 1 button infinite boons builds, no boon spam either, everything you wanted demanded some preparation, damage wasn't so high, so there were no one shot builds, you had to do perfect combos involving stuns, movement and positioning to 100-0 someone, and it never took 3 to 5 seconds, every fight on every class felt interesting, now it's all so automatic, combos are so easy to land, and counters are so clear the skill factor was deleted from the game, it really feels like an android mmo this days

and for those saying "it's a l2p issue" it's not, because actually learning to play with this stupid builds pof brought it's actually easier than it ever was, i as a "veteran" player can take my prot holo out, i've only read like half of my skills and still excel, kill tons of players and survive 1v2 or even 1v3 long enough so i can get back up or run away, it's not about learning to play, it's about what we are learning, and how braindead, spammy and boring it has become.

kraai.7265 · October 13, 2019

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:
@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:posts like this just show how much raids have actually hurt the game.

I don't think many people realize this, but this is exactly why balance has gone the way of the dodo bird. Raids and dps meters; they're the issue. Then the honorable mention goes to the fact MMORPG's can't focus their end game on PvE content.

Balance needs to be addressed in competitive mode's only, PvE should be an afterthought. Any class can take any build and pretty much run through 99.9% of the PvE content in this game, so why decisions made to address "balance" around a fractionally small raid community is beyond me.

because devs we loved (the ones behind pvp, wvw, core and hot classes) already left the company, now we are stuck with a dev team which not only dosen't understand how wvw, pvp or class balance works, they don't even care, why do you think pvp and wvw communities are on free fall and we are still getting the silent treatment and the infamous "coming soon" responses from devs in pvp and wvw section? yet all the content they dish out is either a cash grab, rebooted old content, or stupid pve content which can be finished in half an hour, either that or more treadmills so players can keep their endless grind and farm for fashion

Doug.4930 · October 15, 2019

@Mikhael.2391 said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?
Looking for honest answer since in my opinion making these builds disappear or nerfed severely would have no affect on the zerg brainlesss fights anyway and would make the small ( because people still think its small when its not) groups / players more interested in playing in less numbers having a more satisfied experience.
Ofc the classes mentioned above will be the first ones disagreeing with this but it is to be expected on these posts.

Thats the game at the moment. Had some fights yesterday against some guilded players who were pretty good. But their entire 3 man comp was carried by their holo godmode build. But that's not their fault, they're just playing the game. Just as our 3 man comp composed of a rile DE a soul beast and condi mirage is playing the game.

Unfortunately the god holomode is undisputed king of roaming at the moment. If you lose to someone when you're running prot/rifle holo then I don't know what to tell you hahahaha. Likewise If they run a FB in a team fight. Sure it would be nice if the game got frequent balance updates. But that will never happen. Your best bet is to either accept that the game is now far more about builds than it is about skill, or to find a new game.

It does suck though.

Dawdler.8521 · October 15, 2019

@Doug.4930 said:
@Mikhael.2391 said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?
Looking for honest answer since in my opinion making these builds disappear or nerfed severely would have no affect on the zerg brainlesss fights anyway and would make the small ( because people still think its small when its not) groups / players more interested in playing in less numbers having a more satisfied experience.
Ofc the classes mentioned above will be the first ones disagreeing with this but it is to be expected on these posts.

Thats the game at the moment. Had some fights yesterday against some guilded players who were pretty good. But their entire 3 man comp was carried by their holo godmode build. But that's not their fault, they're just playing the game. Just as our 3 man comp composed of a rile DE a soul beast and condi mirage is playing the game.

Unfortunately the god holomode is undisputed king of roaming at the moment. If you lose to someone when you're running prot/rifle holo then I don't know what to tell you hahahaha. Likewise If they run a FB in a team fight. Sure it would be nice if the game got frequent balance updates. But that will never happen. Your best bet is to either accept that the game is now far more about builds than it is about skill, or to find a new game.

It does suck though.

... and of course, the way to counter that is with skill and tactics. I roam with 1-3 other people and yes, it can be very hard to crack those groups. But if you can get the right skills in at the proper time and have the right player in the right place, its perfectly doable. Identify the main threats, what classes they run and what builds, identify their purpose in the group and then push them in the right spot. Just a single pull or a knockback can ruin their day.

The most obvious example is the meta minizergs (scourge+pocket healer+random sustain). Focus the scourge before they start cycling stability. One pull and you can win the fight before it even starts. Once the scourge dies, the group is crippled. Focus him even if he's getting healed by his pocket healer constantly.

Other times its as simple as just having the nerve to hold your skills for a stomp (stab, invouln) instead of wasting them, or heavily disrupt ressers (AoE stun).

Sometimes you just need to ignore the useless player so you can focus the right ones. This is usually the case for roaming parties, such as those having a condi mirage. Slow ramp up time and nearly useless vs cleanse, just get him to focus on someone that can counter him long enough.

If people think WvW is just about builds... well thats when they loose. Builds are strong true but good players are stronger.

Doug.4930 · October 15, 2019

@Dawdler.8521 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@Mikhael.2391 said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?
Looking for honest answer since in my opinion making these builds disappear or nerfed severely would have no affect on the zerg brainlesss fights anyway and would make the small ( because people still think its small when its not) groups / players more interested in playing in less numbers having a more satisfied experience.
Ofc the classes mentioned above will be the first ones disagreeing with this but it is to be expected on these posts.

Thats the game at the moment. Had some fights yesterday against some guilded players who were pretty good. But their entire 3 man comp was carried by their holo godmode build. But that's not their fault, they're just playing the game. Just as our 3 man comp composed of a rile DE a soul beast and condi mirage is playing the game.

Unfortunately the god holomode is undisputed king of roaming at the moment. If you lose to someone when you're running prot/rifle holo then I don't know what to tell you hahahaha. Likewise If they run a FB in a team fight. Sure it would be nice if the game got frequent balance updates. But that will never happen. Your best bet is to either accept that the game is now far more about builds than it is about skill, or to find a new game.

It does suck though.

... and of course, the way to counter that is with skill and tactics. I roam with 1-3 other people and yes, it can be very hard to crack those groups. But if you can get the right skills in at the proper time and have the right player in the right place, its perfectly doable. Identify the main threats, what classes they run and what builds, identify their purpose in the group and then push them in the right spot. Just a single pull or a knockback can ruin their day.

The most obvious example is the meta minizergs (scourge+pocket healer+random sustain). Focus the scourge before they start cycling stability. One pull and you can win the fight before it even starts. Once the scourge dies, the group is crippled. Focus him even if he's getting healed by his pocket healer constantly.

Other times its as simple as just having the nerve to hold your skills for a stomp (stab, invouln) instead of wasting them, or heavily disrupt ressers (AoE stun).

Sometimes you just need to ignore the useless player so you can focus the right ones. This is usually the case for roaming parties, such as those having a condi mirage. Slow ramp up time and nearly useless vs cleanse, just get him to focus on someone that can counter him long enough.

If people think WvW is just about builds... well thats when they loose. Builds are strong true but good players are stronger.

I've been playing for 7 years, I've got more hours in this game than I care to admit. Once you get to my level of experience, builds decide fights. The only time you are able to beat meta builds/comps when you're not running meta yourself is if your opponents are new/inexperienced. You're strategy is ineffective. Good players dodge any pulls skills in their sleep, and If they are unable to, they are prepared with stabs or something else.

So I respectively disagree. Every single challenging fight I come across in WvW is when somebody is running a meta build:

SB sustain or LB burstweaver sustainHolo sustainDE oneshot or condi(any condi thief really) and S/D thiefDragon hunter trapsFirebrand minstral monk runesScourge cele or condiPerma stance warriors/Spell breakersShiro heraldCondi mirage

Some of these builds are better than others, but I guarantee you what is listed above is 95% of roamers at the moment. If you're not running something akin to this, you're a walking bag to experienced roamers.

Arheundel.6451 · October 15, 2019

@"Mikhael.2391" said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?
Looking for honest answer since in my opinion making these builds disappear or nerfed severely would have no affect on the zerg brainlesss fights anyway and would make the small ( because people still think its small when its not) groups / players more interested in playing in less numbers having a more satisfied experience.
Ofc the classes mentioned above will be the first ones disagreeing with this but it is to be expected on these posts.

Why would you ever think that nerfing certain classes will leave others untouched? If you reduce (or delete as you suggest) dmg then other build sustain will become too much for the health of the game.

Nerfs come for everybody in the end...without exceptions

...do you really think that necros would keep their dmg if everything is nerfed?

Dawdler.8521 · October 15, 2019

@Doug.4930 said:
@Dawdler.8521 said:
@Doug.4930 said:
@Mikhael.2391 said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?
Looking for honest answer since in my opinion making these builds disappear or nerfed severely would have no affect on the zerg brainlesss fights anyway and would make the small ( because people still think its small when its not) groups / players more interested in playing in less numbers having a more satisfied experience.
Ofc the classes mentioned above will be the first ones disagreeing with this but it is to be expected on these posts.