Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:

Well than instead of singling out warrior maybe mention all the classes that do. Like guard that has 2 invulnerability skills one on a heal and another as a elite,periodic aegis that blocks,multiple blocks skill sand even a tele etc etc or classes that have blocks,teleports invulnerability skills ontop lol list goes on but the community pin points warrior who is the most staid forward and basic class who has just blocks and invulnerability but non of the other magic tricks other classes have for sustain? Seriously it's a warrior class it should be tough and hit with decent dps especially being so strait forward. Wareior would be glassier than half the classes and hit like garbage if the devs listened to the bias garbage in most these post. I'm all for depowercreeping the classes but they ALL gotta be done at once not just a select few at a time or uve got these nerfed classes among ones still powercrept, not rocket science.

Play with a full zerk guard (roam or blob), and with a full zerk warr. Post your vids and results, please.

Yeah, my guard if on full zerk has14hp so its one shot or 2 shots away from downed by most classes if i played it like that. would not survive a zerg at all since blocks mean nothing with to much corrupts and unblocables unlike invul stances and a heall that heals for damage taken ( lol if it was not enough already ) or the resistance from signet on warr also to ignore all condis.

Guards have 11k base health..

To balance the fact they have high sustainability built into their kits. If their kit stayed as it is but had warriors hp and toughness gw2 would be nothing more than holo vs guards lol

I mean yeah they have and i ain't arguing its bad, i mostly never do

Okay i lied, let me rephrase;Untill im oneshotted with killshot/arcing slice or malicious backstage with half valk/met Gear while i have eagis up. Or pre nerves on maul or DJ

Point; the defense are still penetrable

Other than guards invulnerability skills yes they are same for warrior.Both guard and warrior have invulnerability skills as warrior if treated for has 3 and guard 2, now remove them. Between guard and warrior on standard builds who has more access to blocks,protection, retaliation and other defensive skills? Both can have high bursts but who has the most variations of bursts?

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:

Well than instead of singling out warrior maybe mention all the classes that do. Like guard that has 2 invulnerability skills one on a heal and another as a elite,periodic aegis that blocks,multiple blocks skill sand even a tele etc etc or classes that have blocks,teleports invulnerability skills ontop lol list goes on but the community pin points warrior who is the most staid forward and basic class who has just blocks and invulnerability but non of the other magic tricks other classes have for sustain? Seriously it's a warrior class it should be tough and hit with decent dps especially being so strait forward. Wareior would be glassier than half the classes and hit like garbage if the devs listened to the bias garbage in most these post. I'm all for depowercreeping the classes but they ALL gotta be done at once not just a select few at a time or uve got these nerfed classes among ones still powercrept, not rocket science.

Play with a full zerk guard (roam or blob), and with a full zerk warr. Post your vids and results, please.

Yeah, my guard if on full zerk has14hp so its one shot or 2 shots away from downed by most classes if i played it like that. would not survive a zerg at all since blocks mean nothing with to much corrupts and unblocables unlike invul stances and a heall that heals for damage taken ( lol if it was not enough already ) or the resistance from signet on warr also to ignore all condis.

Guard has a invulnerability that heals for damage taken to aswell as a invulnerability elite that recharges ur virtues that Grant's u another instant block, I guess only warriors heal matters in this scenario tho lol

Are you mistaking a Guardian with a Revenant?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:

Well than instead of singling out warrior maybe mention all the classes that do. Like guard that has 2 invulnerability skills one on a heal and another as a elite,periodic aegis that blocks,multiple blocks skill sand even a tele etc etc or classes that have blocks,teleports invulnerability skills ontop lol list goes on but the community pin points warrior who is the most staid forward and basic class who has just blocks and invulnerability but non of the other magic tricks other classes have for sustain? Seriously it's a warrior class it should be tough and hit with decent dps especially being so strait forward. Wareior would be glassier than half the classes and hit like garbage if the devs listened to the bias garbage in most these post. I'm all for depowercreeping the classes but they ALL gotta be done at once not just a select few at a time or uve got these nerfed classes among ones still powercrept, not rocket science.

Play with a full zerk guard (roam or blob), and with a full zerk warr. Post your vids and results, please.

Yeah, my guard if on full zerk has14hp so its one shot or 2 shots away from downed by most classes if i played it like that. would not survive a zerg at all since blocks mean nothing with to much corrupts and unblocables unlike invul stances and a heall that heals for damage taken ( lol if it was not enough already ) or the resistance from signet on warr also to ignore all condis.

Guard has a invulnerability that heals for damage taken to aswell as a invulnerability elite that recharges ur virtues that Grant's u another instant block, I guess only warriors heal matters in this scenario tho lol

Are you mistaking a Guardian with a Revenant?

I'm no guard > @subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:

Well than instead of singling out warrior maybe mention all the classes that do. Like guard that has 2 invulnerability skills one on a heal and another as a elite,periodic aegis that blocks,multiple blocks skill sand even a tele etc etc or classes that have blocks,teleports invulnerability skills ontop lol list goes on but the community pin points warrior who is the most staid forward and basic class who has just blocks and invulnerability but non of the other magic tricks other classes have for sustain? Seriously it's a warrior class it should be tough and hit with decent dps especially being so strait forward. Wareior would be glassier than half the classes and hit like garbage if the devs listened to the bias garbage in most these post. I'm all for depowercreeping the classes but they ALL gotta be done at once not just a select few at a time or uve got these nerfed classes among ones still powercrept, not rocket science.

Play with a full zerk guard (roam or blob), and with a full zerk warr. Post your vids and results, please.

Yeah, my guard if on full zerk has14hp so its one shot or 2 shots away from downed by most classes if i played it like that. would not survive a zerg at all since blocks mean nothing with to much corrupts and unblocables unlike invul stances and a heall that heals for damage taken ( lol if it was not enough already ) or the resistance from signet on warr also to ignore all condis.

Guard has a invulnerability that heals for damage taken to aswell as a invulnerability elite that recharges ur virtues that Grant's u another instant block, I guess only warriors heal matters in this scenario tho lol

Are you mistaking a Guardian with a Revenant?

Yeah I confused litany of wrath damage- heal. My bad i apologize. it's been over a yr since I've touched the skill

[Straegen.2938]

@Swagger.1459 said:The problem is that you’re not really being objective here. And warriors can’t be built to have a lot of sustain and damage? They can’t be built to be monsters in melee? Warriors aren’t lacking much except needing more access to better mid to long range weapons.

Not sure how I am not being objective. I play WvW almost exclusively. I duel almost everyday on a variety of builds/classes against a variety. I roam pretty much every day. I am around 9k WvW levels with over 6k hours in WvW most of it from roaming so I have pretty much seen it all.

Boon Beast has a stacking damage reduction dropping their incoming damage by 66% and making them immune to control condi. They block, invuln, stealth, multiple leaps, knockdowns and effectively have permanent regen, protection, fury, vigor, etc. Those are just the defensive highlights. Add on the absurd Rapid Fire which has a ridiculous range and an equally ridiculous cool down. The attack even lasts longer than a dodge so it takes two dodges to avoid it. Up close they have Maul. Slap on pets that do unattended knockdowns, Wordly Impact and more stealth access. The only serious nerf they have seen is stopping the unblockable on Rapid Fire which went on WAY too long. Even the learning curve on the class is one of the lowest in the game.

Warriors are easy to kite and prone to interrupts so they have natural built in counters. Warriors are manageable both in duels and roaming. Rampage is a bit much but it doesn't have the impact in WvW as it does in sPvP. Boon Beast compared to Knockdown Warrior or Rifle Zerk... not even in the same league. Boon Beast will wreck a warrior in 1v1 and most other builds 99/100 given equal skill.

[Agrippa.1693]

@"SloRules.3560" said:Man, i just hope cmc doesn't take this thread too seriously. Some people really don't have any idea about this game, at all.

If anything has to be removed first to tone down the whole thing, it has to be the gameplay deniers (corrupts, rips, cc), why? Because if you can't move, everyone is just going to leave the game... (or you know pirateship, that everyone claims to hate, but are somehow sticking up for)

Overload of boons (HoT) was much better than overload of corrupts/rips (PoF, early PoF tbh).

Also taking more necros to resolve this is going to make you vulnerable in sustain and that is not going to happen.If anything, if sustain becomes obscenely too powerful, which it really won't (you still have spellbreaker that counters itself kinda) it can only develop into single target meta on the high end and for average EBG pugs, it will not make a difference, why? Because they take a year to change gameplay.

I agree that "gameplay deniers" as you put it, could indeed have a negative influence on this game's fun factor, which if there's too much of it, could make people leave or play less. But the examples that you give are very narrow. Let me give you some more: Protection, Aegis, Retaliation, Stability, Resistance .... And this is just a small part, cause you could also mention: blocks, invulns, evades, etc., etc. And those first few happens to be all boons!And also, if you want to nerf the deniers, you should also carefully balance the enablers as well. Imo, it's then not ok to only have a few classes have superior access to hugely important enabler boons like Quickness and Alacrity!!

[Naxos.2503]

I really think Scourge might not be nearly as bad, if it couldn't reach so far in term of distance. Have scourges hunt for their meal, keep their corruption as is, but expose them to the risk of having to close the gap between them and the enemy before being able to corrupt. As far as it is currently, scourges have the same range as any ranged class, the difference is that they wield the equivalent of a nuke, to everyone else's rifle.

Additionally, and I think it's important to mention Group content means boons can actually be applied without you requesting them, and is a cause of many woes. Some players rightly feel that they're killed through no fault of their own, because buffs coming from others are applied to them, and then corrupted into a pit of doom within seconds.

[Kovu.7560]

@Naxos.2503 said:scourges have the same range as any ranged class, the difference is that they wield the equivalent of a nuke, to everyone else's rifle.

And yet even a fridge could stop that nuke, in a 1v1 scenario. The issue lies with how the damage and corruptions add up with multiple scourges.

~ Kovu

[Naxos.2503]

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:scourges have the same range as any ranged class, the difference is that they wield the equivalent of a nuke, to everyone else's rifle.

And yet even a fridge could stop that nuke, in a 1v1 scenario. The issue lies with how the damage and corruptions add up with multiple scourges.

~ Kovu

Also quite true

[SloRules.3560]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@"SloRules.3560" said:Man, i just hope cmc doesn't take this thread too seriously. Some people really don't have any idea about this game, at all.

If anything has to be removed first to tone down the whole thing, it has to be the gameplay deniers (corrupts, rips, cc), why? Because if you can't move, everyone is just going to leave the game... (or you know pirateship, that everyone claims to hate, but are somehow sticking up for)

Overload of boons (HoT) was much better than overload of corrupts/rips (PoF, early PoF tbh).

Also taking more necros to resolve this is going to make you vulnerable in sustain and that is not going to happen.If anything, if sustain becomes obscenely too powerful, which it really won't (you still have spellbreaker that counters itself kinda) it can only develop into single target meta on the high end and for average EBG pugs, it will not make a difference, why? Because they take a year to change gameplay.

I agree that "gameplay deniers" as you put it, could indeed have a negative influence on this game's fun factor, which if there's too much of it, could make people leave or play less. But the examples that you give are very narrow. Let me give you some more: Protection, Aegis, Retaliation, Stability, Resistance .... And this is just a small part, cause you could also mention: blocks, invulns, evades, etc., etc. And those first few happens to be all boons!And also, if you want to nerf the deniers, you should also carefully balance the enablers as well. Imo, it's then

not

ok to only have a few classes have superior access to hugely important enabler boons like Quickness and Alacrity!!

Dude alacrity is not used at all and quickness is really rarely consistent. Only real source for those 2 is scrapper convert and even that is not "real".

I was just saying, that if you can move and do stuff, it's not neceserly bad, but if you can't move, because every time you get CCed (or soft cced), well than you aren't playing at all.

[Burnfall.9573]

[Thornwolf.9721]

These changes are things that I kind of want to see broadly a crossed the game modes.

1. Necro minion rework/staff/dagger MH/OH rework.
2. Revenant ranged condi-weapon for core and a legend for Invocation
3. A rework to Ranger core pets to make them more competitive, fix the Auto attacks and skills for bears for example and make them more about CC. Make all the pets strong like smokescale and so on so we have more options and give them a hard look to be a bit more unique.
4. The removal of perma-invisible builds and one shot builds
5. Boon up-keep being toned down and making Corrupt have more of a impact, as well make the rest of the core aspects of the class more up to snuff with current day kits and E-specs.

[Kitta.3657]

@SloRules.3560 @God.2708 @subversiontwo.7501 thanks for fighting the good fight against the sea of ignorance that plagues this space.

[The Samsquanch.4836]

I mainly play scourge in all game modes. I was mixed feelings on how they got nerfed in PvP and changed in PvE (less damage more targets) but I took this in stride knowing that their WvW game got buffed (I even crafted an ascended set for a power build.) I had previously played herald in WvW before they got nerfed also (I also crafted a full ascended set for it.) I am tired of having every decent class I play nerfed in the interest of "balance". Especially Scourges as you just nerfed them in most game modes and now you're talking about nerfing them in the one game mode they shined. I thought the previous nerfs to Scourge were just a temporary set backs for future reworks as you stated when you made the changes. Scourges have always been the big AoE class and that's why I like playing them, but in WvW you need all different classes to work and they all have defined roles. If you nerf the one aspect that separates them from other classes then there's no reason to keep playing them.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@"The Samsquanch.4836" said:I mainly play scourge in all game modes. I was mixed feelings on how they got nerfed in PvP and changed in PvE (less damage more targets) but I took this in stride knowing that their WvW game got buffed (I even crafted an ascended set for a power build.) I had previously played herald in WvW before they got nerfed also (I also crafted a full ascended set for it.) I am tired of having every decent class I play nerfed in the interest of "balance".

So in a meta where ranged damage and control is problematic you went from one ranged class with notable balance issues to another class with well-noted balance issues (which someone would have told you was the "best"). Do you not see a pattern in your own behaviour here? If you don't like to see nerfs for whatever reason, don't set yourself up to receive them.

Nothing is stopping you from playing that Herald, it is still a very good class that is appreciated in most environments in WvW. The only limitation here seems to be your pursuit of only playing what is best and best by a margin. Balance will never be your friend if you leap around looking for imbalance.

[Jojo.6590]

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

• Why not do the proposed PvP splits in WvW as well, for the sake of roamers?

The PvP changes are targeted specifically at builds that are overperforming in PvP. Looking specifically at roaming, we don’t see anything as too egregious. Certainly everything is extremely powerful, but that is the longer-term thing we’re trying to address. For now we’re trying to balance things around the existing power level while we look ahead to addressing the issue that is the existing power level. If we brought the PvP changes to WvW right now, we would probably need to do additional changes to a bunch of roaming builds. Similar to the Scourge changes this is something that we thought about, but we want to put more time into the future update instead. These changes make sense for both competitive modes in the long-term, but now may not be the right time to make them in WvW. We’ll talk about this a bit more internally, but the main concern right now would be pushing these things out of viability instead of bringing them back in line.

The only bit I want to add to this is that to keep in mind that WvW has access to a greater variety of stats (gear) then does spvp. Because of this builds that are over performing in spvp can/ may be over performing 10x more so in WvW.As always thank you for the continuous communication, this is a great step forwards :)

[Tao.5096]

So you nerfed boon removal but left boon application?

Congrats, that was very smart.Necro had two viable builds in wvw for small scale, now it has only one - power reaper.

Now you have nerfed the scepter even more and make Necromancer in condition spec useless.Comparing this to other classes, I'd like to ask why?

Necromancer was so far the most balanced class due to it's strong points, but also exposed weak points.

So, instead of taking care of the core problem i.e. boon application, you are focusing on slapping workarounds that actually work fine.

Another update, another missed shot.

It is kind of tiring when the developer is forcing the player to play the way that developer wants, you know...

[mad.8374]

nerf scourge is a good idea. But you have to nerf fb, spellbreaker and rev too

[Redponey.8352]

First Thanks @Cal Cohen.3527 for trying to understand our voice about what is broken in WvW.

For years , i've played WvW (playing as pug/comm/guildraid) but now i felt like the gamemode lost something, i dont get the fun that i got before.

Actually there is many issues in WvW (population imbalance, meta, powercreeps, OP spec...) but to have an healthly gamemode, we need to have a FUN meta in which we can enjoy having fight and playing the gamemode. Some points has been alread highlighted by our mates but i'll bring some suggestions to try to bring back FUN.

I think a general nerf on damage output is needed (from power to condi damage) with this a nerf on healing passives (FB , scrapper, ) is also needed to circumvent the issues of overhealing the damage.

Then a buff on combo field might be interesting because it bring interaction between player.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

@"Burnfall.9573" said:

This video makes no sense cos this person hasn't played Necro specs in WvW.L2P issue there.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:

This video makes no sense cos this person hasn't played Necro specs in WvW.L2P issue there.

IT also sounds like,

'i want 10 dollar for candy, ill also give you some because its only fair'

[Burnfall.9573]

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:

This video makes no sense cos this person hasn't played Necro specs in WvW.L2P issue there.

You're wrong. Kroof is very experienced and knowledgeable of the Necromancer Profession with including all the other Professions.

Kroof has been was part of guild wars 2 beta including myself and many others.

In all conclusion, 'let haters hate, truth is infasable, immovable, unstoppable.....carry on"

[Xion.5694]

Hi Cal,

When the perma stealth roamers issue will be adressed?It seems that it is somehow overlooked in the proposed changes.Please take a closer look on small scale, not only zerging meta.

Love to hear!

[Nimon.7840]

If you want to nerf scourge... Just look at mighty teapots proposed changes.I had something similar in mind but didn't think about anything specific.

Sand savant:Keep 10 targets, remove all offensive capabilities for shade skills. And add boons to f abilities.

Make scourge a 10 target support. That would still leave scourge a place as dmg dealer, but you'd only have 5 target cap

[Voltekka.2375]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

This video makes no sense cos this person hasn't played Necro specs in WvW.L2P issue there.

You're wrong. Kroof is very experienced and knowledgeable of the Necromancer Profession with including all the other Professions.

Kroof has been was part of guild wars 2 beta including myself and many others.

In all conclusion, 'let haters hate, truth is infasable, immovable, unstoppable.....carry on"

Still, the point stands. 'Playing sice beta" is hardly an argument, if someone hasnt even touched or even remotely explained why, how and when various specs/utilities work in wvw and which mode (roaming, small scale, havoc, blob). This video is a beginner's guide for pve, I'd say.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

This video makes no sense cos this person hasn't played Necro specs in WvW.L2P issue there.

You're wrong. Kroof is very experienced and knowledgeable of the Necromancer Profession with including all the other Professions.

Kroof has been was part of guild wars 2 beta including myself and many others.

In all conclusion, 'let haters hate, truth is infasable, immovable, unstoppable.....carry on"

She goes "Staff..throwing down 4 marks is pretty boring."One needs to know how useful staff is in wvw and countless times its saved me with skill 4.The clip is pve oriented, no need to post that in a wvw forum.