Can we just lower the damage of warrior?

Eugchriss.2046 · January 2, 2020

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@"Eugchriss.2046" said:Disengage and loose the node. Great idea yeah. How do you counter an unblocable attack as a melee class???

https://gyazo.com/c2e6b3f4d4e596b773788d4ffe44ccdd

https://gyazo.com/a36419c913fa8dbafe905274c9091997

\shrug

Maybe you should try to make sentences if you want to communicate with someone else than yourself.

Azure The Heartless.3261 · January 2, 2020

@Eugchriss.2046 said:
@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@Eugchriss.2046 said:Disengage and loose the node. Great idea yeah. How do you counter an unblocable attack as a melee class???

https://gyazo.com/c2e6b3f4d4e596b773788d4ffe44ccdd

https://gyazo.com/a36419c913fa8dbafe905274c9091997

\shrug

Maybe you should try to make sentences if you want to communicate with someone else than yourself.

Sorry, I thought you'd be able to make the connection between what I said before and two skill icons that you have on your bar in that screenshot that I referred to in that previous post, that would answer your question about what you can do vs unblockable attacks as melee rev without losing the node. I will not make that assumption again.

Unrelenting Assault and Darkrazor's Daring both give you options to deal with Reckless impact, apart from the obvious of not being where the warrior is going when he dodges . swiftness alone will get you out of that 180 range.

I hope that cleared things up.

Also rampage is gone now so this should be even easier because wars cant force you to burn evades on it.

KryTiKaL.3125 · January 2, 2020

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@OddFinrir.6801 said:The issue with warrior damage is
the might stacking
..
...it only takes a handful of attacks to kill any player and they do this while
regening massive amounts of health
that nearly negates bleed and poison damage.

This in particular is what I see as a problem. F1 shouldnt gen might on you AND heal you at the same time, especially when you can run healing signet. That's not fair to any class that needs to play ranged or depends on slow burn dots or lots of low damage hits racking up.

Definitely should still hit you like a truck if rush connects though. I earned that/you deserve that.

Might generation in general is just a scuffed nightmare in the game in general right now. Its too much. Herald has been the longest running poster child as to why its an issue and idk why they've just been adding more and more Might gen and uptime to other classes. Just...baffles me. I guess thats what we get when PvE devs balance PvP for 7 years, though.

OddFinrir.6801 · January 2, 2020

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@OddFinrir.6801 said:The issue with warrior damage is
the might stacking
..
...it only takes a handful of attacks to kill any player and they do this while
regening massive amounts of health
that nearly negates bleed and poison damage.

This in particular is what I see as a problem. F1 shouldnt gen might on you AND heal you at the same time, especially when you can run healing signet. That's not fair to any class that needs to play ranged or depends on slow burn dots or lots of low damage hits racking up.

Definitely should still hit you like a truck if rush connects though. I earned that/you deserve that.

This is actually the entire problem. There is no internal cooldown on the might gain from crits and the health regen from that might gain. For fun, I have a soulbeast setup that uses the trapper rune and Dagger/Dagger + Shortbow. They completely ignore the condition damage this class specializes in by spamming attacks on multiple players that also hit like a truck.

KryTiKaL.3125 · January 2, 2020

@OddFinrir.6801 said:
@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@OddFinrir.6801 said:The issue with warrior damage is
the might stacking
..
...it only takes a handful of attacks to kill any player and they do this while
regening massive amounts of health
that nearly negates bleed and poison damage.

This in particular is what I see as a problem. F1 shouldnt gen might on you AND heal you at the same time, especially when you can run healing signet. That's not fair to any class that needs to play ranged or depends on slow burn dots or lots of low damage hits racking up.

Definitely should still hit you like a truck if rush connects though. I earned that/you deserve that.

This is actually the entire problem. There is no internal cooldown on the might gain from crits and the health regen from that might gain. For fun, I have a soulbeast setup that uses the trapper rune and Dagger/Dagger + Shortbow. They completely ignore the condition damage this class specializes in by spamming attacks on multiple players that also hit like a truck.

The heals on Might gain wouldn't be such a problem for people if not for how Tactics works now and if not for Magebane Tether either. The trait itself is generally fine, its just what ANet has done to other traits that makes it somewhat of an issue. Same situation with Herald and how hard it hits with near every attack. It wouldn't be so problematic if not for the fact that Heralds can maintain 20+ Might essentially the entire time they are in combat.

The Ace.9105 · January 2, 2020

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:
@OddFinrir.6801 said:
@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@OddFinrir.6801 said:The issue with warrior damage is
the might stacking
..
...it only takes a handful of attacks to kill any player and they do this while
regening massive amounts of health
that nearly negates bleed and poison damage.

This in particular is what I see as a problem. F1 shouldnt gen might on you AND heal you at the same time, especially when you can run healing signet. That's not fair to any class that needs to play ranged or depends on slow burn dots or lots of low damage hits racking up.

Definitely should still hit you like a truck if rush connects though. I earned that/you deserve that.

This is actually the entire problem. There is no internal cooldown on the might gain from crits and the health regen from that might gain. For fun, I have a soulbeast setup that uses the trapper rune and Dagger/Dagger + Shortbow. They completely ignore the condition damage this class specializes in by spamming attacks on multiple players that also hit like a truck.

The heals on Might gain wouldn't be such a problem for people if not for how Tactics works now and if not for Magebane Tether either. The trait itself is generally fine, its just what ANet has done to other traits that makes it somewhat of an issue. Same situation with Herald and how

hard

it hits with near every attack. It wouldn't be so problematic if not for the fact that Heralds can maintain 20+ Might essentially the entire time they are in combat.

after the nerf herald maintains about 10-15 stacks of might

Vicariuz.1605 · January 3, 2020

@Eugchriss.2046 said:
@KryTiKaL.3125 said:
@Eugchriss.2046 said:
@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@"SeikeNz.3526" said:on this topic warrior players think they are more skilled than anyone, "just dodge lol", while every skill of warrior will hit for 5k minimum so can you dodge every hit? it's impossible, you have 2 dodges while they have 10 skills+ to dmg, so you dodge 2 of them and get stomped

You don't need to -just- dodge everything. You can block, invuln, use a skill with an evade, blind, immob, interrupt with daze or cc, move out of the way with a port or attack from range on almost every class to date.If a warrior is close enough to you to land anything on you that isnt a gap closer, and are currently attacking you, you're disadvantaged. If you don't dodge a gap closer that hits you for a lot, you're disadvantaged.Play the game and evade the telegraphed things. Wars can't burst you from stealth or instantly port to you, so you have just as much information of that whole battle situation as that warrior, if not more than them. Let them have the big damage for getting near you and getting hits in. Otherwise they're just going to be objectively worse than the classes who have just as much damage output but can do it from 1200 range or stealth.

That's what I did, but I died still lmao...

I was so stupid to think that it wasn t worth it to dodge some one else's dodge.

Also what killed you was the Arcing Slice into two GS auto attacks for a total of 8,000~ or so damage. The dodges weren't what killed you.I was already in downed state when those 8k happened.@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:
@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@"SeikeNz.3526" said:on this topic warrior players think they are more skilled than anyone, "just dodge lol", while every skill of warrior will hit for 5k minimum so can you dodge every hit? it's impossible, you have 2 dodges while they have 10 skills+ to dmg, so you dodge 2 of them and get stomped

You don't need to -just- dodge everything. You can block, invuln, use a skill with an evade, blind, immob, interrupt with daze or cc, move out of the way with a port or attack from range on almost every class to date.If a warrior is close enough to you to land anything on you that isnt a gap closer, and are currently attacking you, you're disadvantaged. If you don't dodge a gap closer that hits you for a lot, you're disadvantaged.Play the game and evade the telegraphed things. Wars can't burst you from stealth or instantly port to you, so you have just as much information of that whole battle situation as that warrior, if not more than them. Let them have the big damage for getting near you and getting hits in. Otherwise they're just going to be objectively worse than the classes who have just as much damage output but can do it from 1200 range or stealth.

That's what I did, but I died still lmao...

I was so stupid to think that it wasn t worth it to dodge some one else's dodge.

If a Warrior is dumping their dodges for the purpose of doing damage...you're the one playing bad for not taking advantage of that and either disengaging or using another tool to counter that Warrior being a kitten.Disengage and loose the node. Great idea yeah. How do you counter an unblocable attack as a melee class???

imagine having to get off the node and utilize the map terrain to ur advantage, imagine it being a problem that u cant stand stationary and just face tank everything.

Curennos.9307 · January 3, 2020

I just want Magebane Tether to lose its 10% extra damage and only proc if you hit someone with Full Counter (which tbh, could also use a bit of a use-speed buff...it's so damn slow), instead of any burst skill whatsoever. And maybe give the might gen a bit more of a ramp up. Give the other GM traits (and all the other unused traits further down) some love.

And ofc nerf power creep across the board so warr doesn't suffer alone, obv.

Also - IIRC Anet is planning on removing Sigil of Agility? Imo that's a source of no small amount of issues. Warrior is scary when every single one of their many CCs can result in a swap to GS with Quickness into Arc, 100blades, etc. Warrior depends on that sigil far more than most other classes to land its kill skills - I think they'd be hit the hardest by the sigil's removal.

Tycura.1982 · January 3, 2020

A lot of people tend to forget that warrior trades off range, teleports, utility boons and conditions for survivability, horizontal mobility, and damage to compensate the telegraphed attacks and short damage windows.

But what do I know

TorQ.7041 · January 3, 2020

No git gud

Daishi.6027 · January 3, 2020

Like everything else in the game, there is inflated survivability and damage. As warrior is right now it's mostly fine but warrior is not below everything else to be considered "fine" after changes. Even if it were a difficult playstyle, that isn't justification for a class being overtuned.

Best way to preserve the class but tone it down (only in the context of EVERYTHING in the game being toned down)Either A:

Reduce might generation overall.
Remove evade from Whirlwind attack

or B:

Nerf Reckless dodge or make it blockable.
Make Magebane Tether blockable
Remove evade from Whirlwind attack

The point of 1 and 2 in B is to make block heavy builds able to deal with it better and respond to it after a burst skill, while only minorly affecting the other matchups. And removes "dodge to counter a block" as an option, since I don't think that is a particularly healthy gameplay considering how hard it hits after might, and how easily the build generates might. While 3 makes greatsword more vulnerable again. It was never supposed to be as safe as it is now, and granted it needed it for the inflated power creep; but if we're going back it should be reverted.

Also PvP wide Sigil of Agility shouldn't exist.

KryTiKaL.3125 · January 3, 2020

@"Daishi.6027" said:Like everything else in the game, there is inflated survivability and damage. As warrior is right now it's mostly fine but warrior is not below everything else to be considered "fine" after changes. Even if it were a difficult playstyle, that isn't justification for a class being overtuned.
Best way to preserve the class but tone it down (only in the context of EVERYTHING in the game being toned down)Either A:
Reduce might generation overall.
Remove evade from Whirlwind attack
or B:
Nerf Reckless dodge or make it blockable.
Make Magebane Tether blockable
Remove evade from Whirlwind attack
The point of 1 and 2 in B is to make block heavy builds able to deal with it better and respond to it after a burst skill, while only minorly affecting the other matchups. And removes "dodge to counter a block" as an option, since I don't think that is a particularly healthy gameplay considering how hard it hits after might, and how easily the build generates might. While 3 makes greatsword more vulnerable again. It was never supposed to be as safe as it is now, and granted it needed it for the inflated power creep; but if we're going back it should be reverted.
Also PvP wide Sigil of Agility shouldn't exist.

What are you talking about GS3 should be "reverted"? Its literally always had an evade, ever since the beginning of the game. I'm not sure where this idea came from that the evade on GS3 is new.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack/history

Warrior's sustainability gets inflated with the immensely increased access to Might that it has gotten, especially with Tactics. Otherwise the sustain is generally fine, at least respectively compared to the sustain of other classes its on par with them.

Like with literally everything else in the game they are looking to trim down the damage and healing across classes. I know people are eager to call for the removal of skills for whatever multitude of inane reasons they have (seriously people really like to fixate on weird stuff as 'problems' of a class), but just as an example as much of a problem as people have with Silent Scope on Deadeye and Infinite Horizon on Mirage I don't think either of those traits need "removal" so much as they would likely be balanced out by having an ICD.

The biggest contributor to the power creep in the game has been boons and their availability in combat for most if not all classes. Doesn't matter if its just Might, its Fury or Vigor or Stability. The game has been hard power crept by boon duration and the addition of boon proc effects across trait lines and newly added/reworked sigils and runes. Hopefully the upcoming balance patch will address some of this, but ultimately I'm thinking we'll only see a significant trim down on damage and healing and they will see where those two facets stand for future changes to come.

Just seriously...stop targeting things that aren't problems as problems. That isn't to say Magebane isn't a problem, in fact like I said boons are the contributor to power creep so that is very much one of the problems.

Multicolorhipster.9751 · January 3, 2020

Why Rush? Where did 900 toughness even come from? The typical textbook demolisher ammy Strength Spellbreaker build only gets 560 extra like anyone else using Demolisher ammy without any baseline toughness traits/skills.

storm.3120 · January 3, 2020

Strength traitline gives exra 10 power for each might stack - 250 extra power on top of might."Recently" powercrept greatsword mastery 120 perma/240 power with GS PLUS might on crits and 20% skills recharge - dont seems to be overloaded AF?(the same goes for thief sword trait.Attacker's Insight (15s): 45 Ferocity, 45 Power - 225 power AND ferocity on 5 stacks that super easy to get. Dont think there is any trait in the game gives that much + in this same trait spellbreaker gets recharge of burst skills if FC lands - hands dont, busted as hell.Add to this 25 might(+750 power/condi damage) and here we go. Dodgerolls for 5-6k etcThere are simiar traits like guardian r-hand training (80 precision and 80 power if u have 1h weapon on, not 120+120) and FF on mesmer which overall ferocity gain is 150 for 6 seconds IF you hit TEN times with a sword, LOL,

Math.5123 · January 3, 2020

https://www.twitch.tv/infinitemath/clip/SleepyAttractiveButterflyDancingBaby?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time Just going to leave this here.

Shao.7236 · January 3, 2020

Glad someone else posted something and actually got attention. Warrior Strength line is just too good right now, like we talking low risk high reward because of how strong Reckless Dodge is with the rest, I'm not against the fact MMR exists because with either FGJ or Tether it's a fair amount of endurance comparable to Revenant or other professions for that matter.

However being able to deal up to 4k-5k unblockable damage by "dodging" really often with all of the other things that are more or less vague like Dagger 2 vs Dagger burst really gets unfair. Aside thinking that FC cooldown is still a bit too low and should be 15 seconds base. There's not a lot to complain about, Warrior is definitely one of the easiest profession to play right now.

People that say "Dodge right! Learn warrior! Get better!" Have those facts going above their head completely. Warrior is not the holy grail of skill or competence whatsoever, it doesn't take incredible precision or reflex to play something that has so much damage, avoidance and utility altogether. I've heard so much whining in the past years about Warrior being unplayable until PoF which was complete bogus as well, people love to swim in power creep that's all.

You only can dodge two times in a short time, there's at least 6 attacks that hits for minimum 4k from the start of the fight or after FC Tether, most of them are unblockable which cuts blocking and force into i-frames or evades, core axe cleave with 25 Might alone is 15k critical on base heavy armor, that should say much about damage.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · January 3, 2020

@The Ace.9105 said:
@"Zexanima.7851" said:As Poelala said, once you play against better players warriors becomes harder and harder to play. The attacks are telegraphed, the combos predictable. Warrior is one of the professions I like to say "you get out what you put in". If you get rocked by a warrior it's for one of two reasons
You need to learn warrior better and how to play against it
The warrior has put in more practice than you and better understands their profession and how to play against yours.
(Bonus) You got +1, but you should die no matter the profession.
Warrior is strong no doubt but in the current meta it's about middle of the pack and fairly well balanced because it is a, believe it or not, player skilled based profession.

I have over 10k matches played tyvm. Don't go off-topic.

He's being serious though. If you lose to a Warrior it's because the Warrior earned it.

When you're against good Warriors, you need to play counter offensively. Don't go ham on something that is designed to counter offense YOU. The Warrior is designed in such a way that it is more rewarding for the Warrior/Spellbreaker to wait for you to take actions, and then he responds to it. With their sheer amount of CCs and ability to burst remove 4+ boons rather frequently, what they are mostly doing is waiting for you to burn CDs during your offense. During this time they respond with things like GS #3, Full Counter, CCs to interrupt you, blocking or invulning to eat burst. Warrior/Spellbreaker is designed almost completely around counter offense.

In other words, the Warrior/Spellbreaker is punishing you for ill timed, lofty, and wasted skill use. If you slow down vs. good Warriors/Spellbreakers and force them to take the offensive approach, while you take the counter offensive stance, you'll notice that everything they do is quite telegraphed. Even if you can't kill the good Warrior/Spellbreaker, using this method should allow you to kite it and survive at the least.

Oh and make sure to utilize elevation increases & drops, such as jumping up boxes or jumping down a step or two. These kinds of elevation changes stop the pathing of their gap closers and this often renders the Warrior/Spellbreaker into a "slow class", which makes him easy to disengage.

ZDragon.3046 · January 3, 2020

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@"SeikeNz.3526" said:on this topic warrior players think they are more skilled than anyone, "just dodge lol", while every skill of warrior will hit for 5k minimum so can you dodge every hit? it's impossible, you have 2 dodges while they have 10 skills+ to dmg, so you dodge 2 of them and get stomped

You don't need to -just- dodge everything. You can block, invuln, use a skill with an evade, blind, immob, interrupt with daze or cc, move out of the way with a port or attack from range on almost every class to date.If a warrior is close enough to you to land anything on you that isnt a gap closer, and are currently attacking you, you're disadvantaged. If you don't dodge a gap closer that hits you for a lot, you're disadvantaged.Play the game and evade the telegraphed things. Wars can't burst you from stealth or instantly port to you, so you have just as much information of that whole battle situation as that warrior, if not more than them. Let them have the big damage for getting near you and getting hits in. Otherwise they're just going to be objectively worse than the classes who have just as much damage output but can do it from 1200 range or stealth.

To be a bit blunt on this topic from someone who plays a profession that mostly needs to kite even more so against warriors they have a point and i can see why they would say that. Warriors have a lot of skills which will force you to dodge or they promptly erase your hp. Gs3 & Axe2 are good examples of that. ITs one thing to be at a disadvantage and another with just having to dodge things or die. Even dagger skills like the f1 burst should be dogged if possible and it can be hard to clearly see the f1 and the standard dagger 2 in the time frame they happen which many people will just see as "Avoid both!" If they run tactics with leg spec. then you need to also dodge anything that causes cripple or risk giving them a free stun should you get immob'ed. This makes the Gs 4 and axe 3 things you need/should try to avoid. Generally speaking there are builds that exists right now where you do need to literally dodge almost everything the warrior throws at you.Gap closers have increased in number while conditions that are use to shutdown gap closing have been weakened. Depending on your profession you wont have some of the things you listed in nearly enough to compensate the aggressiveness of warriors especially while things like shake it off / for great justices are so power crept. Big damage might be ok.... omega might boosted big damage at the press of a single button is not ok. The fact that they can press a single button and get lethal levels of damage on every skill is a boon issue that needs to be looked into.

The Ace.9105 · January 3, 2020

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@The Ace.9105 said:
@"Zexanima.7851" said:As Poelala said, once you play against better players warriors becomes harder and harder to play. The attacks are telegraphed, the combos predictable. Warrior is one of the professions I like to say "you get out what you put in". If you get rocked by a warrior it's for one of two reasons
You need to learn warrior better and how to play against it
The warrior has put in more practice than you and better understands their profession and how to play against yours.
(Bonus) You got +1, but you should die no matter the profession.
Warrior is strong no doubt but in the current meta it's about middle of the pack and fairly well balanced because it is a, believe it or not, player skilled based profession.

I have over 10k matches played tyvm. Don't go off-topic.

He's being serious though. If you lose to a Warrior it's because the Warrior earned it.

When you're against good Warriors, you need to play counter offensively. Don't go ham on something that is designed to counter offense YOU. The Warrior is designed in such a way that it is more rewarding for the Warrior/Spellbreaker to wait for you to take actions, and then he responds to it. With their sheer amount of CCs and ability to burst remove 4+ boons rather frequently, what they are mostly doing is waiting for you to burn CDs during your offense. During this time they respond with things like GS #3, Full Counter, CCs to interrupt you, blocking or invulning to eat burst. Warrior/Spellbreaker is designed almost completely around counter offense.

In other words, the Warrior/Spellbreaker is punishing you for ill timed, lofty, and wasted skill use. If you slow down vs. good Warriors/Spellbreakers and force them to take the offensive approach, while you take the counter offensive stance, you'll notice that everything they do is quite telegraphed. Even if you can't kill the good Warrior/Spellbreaker, using this method should allow you to kite it and survive at the least.

Oh and make sure to utilize elevation increases & drops, such as jumping up boxes or jumping down a step or two. These kinds of elevation changes stop the pathing of their gap closers and this often renders the Warrior/Spellbreaker into a "slow class", which makes him easy to disengage.

Why is the warrior the only class that you have to play perfect against and go all "intelligent" and different? Why is it warrior that requires you to plan your next 5 actions and if you get hit you are pretty much done for unless you have port that can port you out of the wars range?

Warrior just has a list of damage modifiers as traits and it's stupid.

+10% + 21% + 7% + 1% for every boon on you + 3% for every boon on the target + 25% + 25% or 50% WC + 7% + 7% + 15% + 120 power + Pinnacle of Strength making each might stack +40 power instead of 30 + 25 Might stacks + 350 feroc upon existing + amulet feroc.

That's way too much of damage modifiers and even if those all aren't in the meta traits the amount of that many modifiers shouldn't even be the case in any case.

Zexanima.7851 · January 3, 2020

@The Ace.9105 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@The Ace.9105 said:
@"Zexanima.7851" said:As Poelala said, once you play against better players warriors becomes harder and harder to play. The attacks are telegraphed, the combos predictable. Warrior is one of the professions I like to say "you get out what you put in". If you get rocked by a warrior it's for one of two reasons
You need to learn warrior better and how to play against it
The warrior has put in more practice than you and better understands their profession and how to play against yours.
(Bonus) You got +1, but you should die no matter the profession.
Warrior is strong no doubt but in the current meta it's about middle of the pack and fairly well balanced because it is a, believe it or not, player skilled based profession.