Why did Rangers get nerfed when Guardians are hitting 10k trueshots on 3000 armor?

[ArchonWing.9480]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"God.2708" said:Is this y'alls first day calculating damage or some Kitten?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWgAMZlFwmgViD9VdbH-zVJYiRFfh0UEUbCURBY7so/oF-w

1.91 Power Modifier

3868 Power

1050 Weapon Strength (Average) = 7,757,274Divided by 3000 for Armor = 2,585.758

Now. He throws Spear of justice and it connects whilst he has aegis up at 1k range, then uses true shot immediately after and critsUnscathed Contender 20%Inspiring Virtue 10%Power of Virtuous 5% (average, might fury retal swiftness and regen)Fiery Wrath 7%Symbolic Exposure 5%Zealots Aggression 10%Pure of Sight 15%Big Game Hunter 15%Sigil of Force 5%Sigil of Impact 3%Rune of Scholar 5%Critical Hit 111%

We'll leave out impacts 7% against CCed foes, Symbolic Avengers potential 10% increase, and Vulnerability (though he will have 1% for symbolic exposure from Big Game Hunter traited)

14,034 Damage

The biggest stretch is this DH having 25 might stacks as an opener, but an empower right after dragon's maw pops is 22 by itself, if he has a couple of allies to throw some his way even easier.

Edit: This isn't even maxed, I used marauders cuz I figured a DH running around in full zerk would be insanity, 4091 Power with 133% crit in full zerk.

Wouldn't that require a complete potato of a target to land all that?

That's a very mean thing to call gw2 players

I apologize to the veteran sentry guard. Although I think he moves more than your average player though.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"God.2708" said:Is this y'alls first day calculating damage or some Kitten?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWgAMZlFwmgViD9VdbH-zVJYiRFfh0UEUbCURBY7so/oF-w

1.91 Power Modifier

3868 Power

1050 Weapon Strength (Average) = 7,757,274Divided by 3000 for Armor = 2,585.758

Now. He throws Spear of justice and it connects whilst he has aegis up at 1k range, then uses true shot immediately after and critsUnscathed Contender 20%Inspiring Virtue 10%Power of Virtuous 5% (average, might fury retal swiftness and regen)Fiery Wrath 7%Symbolic Exposure 5%Zealots Aggression 10%Pure of Sight 15%Big Game Hunter 15%Sigil of Force 5%Sigil of Impact 3%Rune of Scholar 5%Critical Hit 111%

We'll leave out impacts 7% against CCed foes, Symbolic Avengers potential 10% increase, and Vulnerability (though he will have 1% for symbolic exposure from Big Game Hunter traited)

14,034 Damage

The biggest stretch is this DH having 25 might stacks as an opener, but an empower right after dragon's maw pops is 22 by itself, if he has a couple of allies to throw some his way even easier.

Edit: This isn't even maxed, I used marauders cuz I figured a DH running around in full zerk would be insanity, 4091 Power with 133% crit in full zerk.

Wouldn't that require a complete potato of a target to land all that?

Yes, it would also require the DH to play perfect and land everything, as you have to setup most of those modifiers, from F1 to landing a symbol etc etc and most are short lived modifiers, so you will need to be very quick with the rotation, and then ignore the long cast time and rooted animation.

The builds people are posting are HORRIBLE, I will gladly fight them any day. Myself, I don't care if they do something with TS, as LB is in such a bad clunky state that I have moved away from LB.

Matter of fact, since DH LB seems to be the problem for Rangers, how about we get anet to swap them? DH gets Ranger LB and Ranger gets DH LB with TS, since it seems Ranger needs a dmg boost from people posting here, it's a good trade no?

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAMx3jJYTGm9hj9yfbH-zRIYTUzXINFCBmAVUB6fACZP8WC71C-e

~1100 weapon damage3718 Power1.91 multiplier2.54% crit damage~68% Increased trait damage (very optimistic there btw)/3000 armor= 10,936 damage without 25 stacks of vulnerability ( I assume at least one stack for the trait damage but do not factor the vulnerability in).If you factor in 25 stacks of vulnerability it becomes 13,670.

@"God.2708" said:Is this y'alls first day calculating damage or some Kitten?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWgAMZlFwmgViD9VdbH-zVJYiRFfh0UEUbCURBY7so/oF-w

1.91 Power Modifier

3868 Power

1050 Weapon Strength (Average) = 7,757,274Divided by 3000 for Armor = 2,585.758

Now. He throws Spear of justice and it connects whilst he has aegis up at 1k range, then uses true shot immediately after and critsUnscathed Contender 20%Inspiring Virtue 10%Power of Virtuous 5% (average, might fury retal swiftness and regen)Fiery Wrath 7%Symbolic Exposure 5%Zealots Aggression 10%Pure of Sight 15%Big Game Hunter 15%Sigil of Force 5%Sigil of Impact 3%Rune of Scholar 5%Critical Hit 111%

We'll leave out impacts 7% against CCed foes, Symbolic Avengers potential 10% increase, and Vulnerability (though he will have 1% for symbolic exposure from Big Game Hunter traited)

14,034 Damage

The biggest stretch is this DH having 25 might stacks as an opener, but an empower right after dragon's maw pops is 22 by itself, if he has a couple of allies to throw some his way even easier.

Edit: This isn't even maxed, I used marauders cuz I figured a DH running around in full zerk would be insanity, 4091 Power with 133% crit in full zerk.

What server are yall on?

Yall can bring these builds and I will bring my DH, lets see how useful those builds are.

Oh, I don't run that. Running Burn DH at the moment. I honestly don't like DH longbow, I just posted that because I knew the 7k number was too low. Why not hop into Armistice Bastion though? There is a dueling ground there.

It's not about what you (or anyone) runs, it's that to get those numbers, not only do you need to run a build that is only good at dealing dmg to golems, but it has a whole multi part setup to boost a very telegraphed skill, which is the only thing that really needs to be dodged, blocked, blinded or reflected. After which the DH should be a pretty easy kill, assuming equal skill levels.

Much like your burn DH, people cry all the time about it, and I can see that in a zerg setting it might be meme, however I have yet to find anyone who can beat my normal power build with a burn DH. While less telegraphed than LB builds, burn DH is pretty easy to see coming and pretty easy to avoid the burst. Only one I ever had trouble with was actually a burn/condi FB, not a DH, as it just had to much sustain, however this was before the patch in the FB case.

I think you're missing the point on why those builds and numbers were posted. Nominally, yeah you can get a +13k True Shot. No one who posted such numbers claimed that they were realistic or even playable builds. DH LB is pretty bad, but hey if you use bane signet after someone blows their stunbreak you'll get a good TS in, maybe...

Getting hit by True Shot takes try skill on the part of the one getting hit /s.

[Clownmug.8357]

Hmm, seems we're at the stage where people switch gears into calling other players bad and downplaying things as "meme" builds.

[God.2708]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"God.2708" said:Is this y'alls first day calculating damage or some Kitten?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWgAMZlFwmgViD9VdbH-zVJYiRFfh0UEUbCURBY7so/oF-w

1.91 Power Modifier

3868 Power

1050 Weapon Strength (Average) = 7,757,274Divided by 3000 for Armor = 2,585.758

Now. He throws Spear of justice and it connects whilst he has aegis up at 1k range, then uses true shot immediately after and critsUnscathed Contender 20%Inspiring Virtue 10%Power of Virtuous 5% (average, might fury retal swiftness and regen)Fiery Wrath 7%Symbolic Exposure 5%Zealots Aggression 10%Pure of Sight 15%Big Game Hunter 15%Sigil of Force 5%Sigil of Impact 3%Rune of Scholar 5%Critical Hit 111%

We'll leave out impacts 7% against CCed foes, Symbolic Avengers potential 10% increase, and Vulnerability (though he will have 1% for symbolic exposure from Big Game Hunter traited)

14,034 Damage

The biggest stretch is this DH having 25 might stacks as an opener, but an empower right after dragon's maw pops is 22 by itself, if he has a couple of allies to throw some his way even easier.

Edit: This isn't even maxed, I used marauders cuz I figured a DH running around in full zerk would be insanity, 4091 Power with 133% crit in full zerk.

Wouldn't that require a complete potato of a target to land all that?

I explained precisely what the DH would have to do to land all that. Land F1, immediately cast and land True Shot, Have true shot crit, still have Aegis at the time. That's all. The one thing to call into question (which I also pointed out) was the having 25 stacks of might at start while doing it.

Would I try and duel with this? Hell no. Would I sit in a tower and pop unsuspecting small groups trying to take the tower and then f2 back inside the portal? All day easily.

Edit: Or where it would shine dramatically, being part of an SMC cloud picking at a larger zerg trying to take it. Watch for a squishy to dodge twice, f1 true shot done. Is this better than half a dozen other builds that do it better? Not really, but maybe people like playing DH over Deadeye.

[LetoII.3782]

@"Clownmug.8357" said:Hmm, seems we're at the stage where people switch gears into calling other players bad and downplaying things as "meme" builds.

Well, to be fair zeal/radiance/dragonhunter is such an awful idea that it does merit a bit of fun-poking

[Clownmug.8357]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@"Clownmug.8357" said:Hmm, seems we're at the stage where people switch gears into calling other players bad and downplaying things as "meme" builds.

Well, to be fair zeal/radiance/dragonhunter is such an awful idea that it does merit a bit of fun-poking

Radiance/Virtues/Dragonhunter is more likely, but people can come up with whatever strawman they want really.

[Infusion.7149]

I think the real reason is so rangers will switch classes in WvW. Of course we all know ranger-only players are adamant they are useful in squads and can't be flexible despite every other class having some legitimate role.

Dragonhunters on the other hand don't have protection on dodge (wilderness survival) and other sustain/disengage tools such as stealth on longbow so while true shot probably deserves to be cut down, it probably isn't a priority.

[LetoII.3782]

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:Hmm, seems we're at the stage where people switch gears into calling other players bad and downplaying things as "meme" builds.

Well, to be fair zeal/radiance/dragonhunter is such an awful idea that it does merit a bit of fun-poking

Radiance/Virtues/Dragonhunter is more likely, but people can come up with whatever strawman they want really.

...Yes thank you<,<

[KrHome.1920]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAMx3jJYTGm9hj9yfbH-zRIYTUzXINFCBmAVUB6fACZP8WC71C-e

~1100 weapon damage3718 Power1.91 multiplier2.54% crit damage~68% Increased trait damage (very optimistic there btw)/3000 armor= 10,936 damage without 25 stacks of vulnerability ( I assume at least one stack for the trait damage but do not factor the vulnerability in).If you factor in 25 stacks of vulnerability it becomes 13,670.Where does that 3718 power come from? Your build has 2718 power which leads to about 30% less damage (a 7k hit if the target has no vulnerability) than you calculated. Might generation on this build is also nothing special. Not to mention the poor 40% (15% + 25%) crit chance.

@God.2708 said:3868 PowerTo you too: where do you get that additional 1000 power from? Your linked build has 2868 power.

Do you both calculate with bloodlust and 25 might stacks? That does never happen in an opening (oneshot) scenario or a 1v1 or in smallscale. That's why I calculated with 3000 power (full zerk + bloodlust + a handfull of might).

In a zergfight where 25 might is a thing you can also assume that your target has perma protection and other damage mitigation from allies, which completely nullifies your additional power.

As the damage is scaling in the blob, so is also the defense. That's how it should be.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAMx3jJYTGm9hj9yfbH-zRIYTUzXINFCBmAVUB6fACZP8WC71C-e

~1100 weapon damage3718 Power1.91 multiplier2.54% crit damage~68% Increased trait damage (very optimistic there btw)/3000 armor= 10,936 damage without 25 stacks of vulnerability ( I assume at least one stack for the trait damage but do not factor the vulnerability in).If you factor in 25 stacks of vulnerability it becomes 13,670.Where does that 3718 power come from? Your build has 2718 power which leads to about 30% less damage (a 7k hit if the target has no vulnerability) than you calculated. Might generation on this build is also nothing special. Not to mention the poor 40% (15% + 25%) crit chance.

@God.2708 said:3868 PowerTo you too: where do you get that additional 1000 power from? Your linked build has 2868 power.

Do you both calculate with bloodlust and 25 might stacks? That does never happen in an opening (oneshot) scenario or a 1v1 or in smallscale. That's why I calculated with 3000 power (full zerk + bloodlust + a handfull of might).

In a zergfight where 25 might is a thing you can also assume that your target has perma protection and other damage mitigation from allies, which completely nullifies your additional power.

As the damage is scaling in the blob, so is also the defense. That's how it should be.

Toggle the might stacks and bloodlust... Change the choice in sigils and runes if you want, you can stack might quickly regardless of class if you want to with the right choices.

[God.2708]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAMx3jJYTGm9hj9yfbH-zRIYTUzXINFCBmAVUB6fACZP8WC71C-e

~1100 weapon damage3718 Power1.91 multiplier2.54% crit damage~68% Increased trait damage (very optimistic there btw)/3000 armor= 10,936 damage without 25 stacks of vulnerability ( I assume at least one stack for the trait damage but do not factor the vulnerability in).If you factor in 25 stacks of vulnerability it becomes 13,670.Where does that 3718 power come from? Your build has 2718 power which leads to about 30% less damage (a 7k hit if the target has no vulnerability) than you calculated. Might generation on this build is also nothing special. Not to mention the poor 40% (15% + 25%) crit chance.

@God.2708 said:3868 PowerTo you too: where do you get that additional 1000 power from? Your linked build has 2868 power.

Do you both calculate with bloodlust and 25 might stacks? That does never happen in an opening (oneshot) scenario or a 1v1 or in smallscale. That's why I calculated with 3000 power (full zerk + bloodlust + a handfull of might).

In a zergfight where 25 might is a thing you can also assume that your target has perma protection and other damage mitigation from allies, which completely nullifies your additional power.

As the damage is scaling in the blob, so is also the defense. That's how it should be.

Bloodlust stacks are a dime a dozen in WvW. It has staff as the secondary weapon so you can enter the fight with a minimum of 12 stacks of might. But yes I DID in fact point that out in my post.

[LetoII.3782]

I have actually seen a few dragonhunters run staff/longbow and empower themselves before a true shot.It's hilarious to stand there waiting to dodge for 6 seconds, and you can almost hear the scream of frustration reverberating through the fundament... But it does happen.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I love how all these calculations are like:"The Guardian is THIS overstacked! What a beast!" and all "The target just has 3k armor, and nothing else. They are a poor child.".

This game is full of defenses, you can even get 33%-40% damage resistance from a single boon.

[TPMN.1483]

Could we just give everyone a pitchfork and pitchfork skills for April 1st?

[ens.9854]

Can lag inflate numbers? Just got nailed by a spear -> 19.3k trueshot on (almost) full marauder thief lol. Start of combat walking up to a camp he cleared. Had 300 ping from downloads tho so i didnt even react lol.

[pukish.5784]

Radiance/Virtues/Dragonhunter is more likely, but people can come up with whatever strawman they want really.

man loves big gun

[Obtena.7952]

The answer: Because rangers getting nerfed has nothing to do with Guardians hitting 10K trueshots.

[Anput.4620]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Drennon.7190 said:How are Guardians hitting trueshot that high?They don't.

The multiplier of True Shot is 1.91. In a perfect scenario (25 Might + 25 Vulnerability + all possible damage modifiers) you can get a 10k crit with that skill on a 3k armor (!) target, but that's so rare that it's not worth talking about it.

I’m full zerk and get excited to see a 5k crit.The 5k you got is what you can expect in typical scenarios.

Yeah, let's just pretend the 9k crit screenshot posted hours before doesn't exist.Reading comprehension anywhere?

I did not say it's not possible. I did say it's a best case scenario no one (except a few people like you) cares about.

@"Anput.4620" said:Ive been meeting that guardian all evening that night and they consistently hit 8-10k trueshots on me with 3k armor.There are your subjective experiences on the one side.

There is the objective math the damage calculation is based on on the other side.

Sorry but I trust the latter more than I trust some forum poster. I don't need experiences. I can take the damage formula and insert numbers to get a better insight than asking random exaggerating people.

Btw.: 8k is not 10k!

Damage calculation:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

Damage increasing traits:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_Damage_Adjusting_Traits

These 3 seem to be the main contenders for big trueshot numbers:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unscathed_Contender

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Sight

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Game_Hunter

Lern their mechanic to be able to avoid them!

Ok so the damage log is faulty then.

[Anput.4620]

@Infusion.7149 said:I think the real reason is so rangers will switch classes in WvW. Of course we all know ranger-only players are adamant they are useful in squads and can't be flexible despite every other class having some legitimate role.

Dragonhunters on the other hand don't have protection on dodge (wilderness survival) and other sustain/disengage tools such as stealth on longbow so while true shot probably deserves to be cut down, it probably isn't a priority.

The DH was incredibly tanky with multiple heals, blocks and that long invuls that resets all of those, what are you talking about lol.

[Infusion.7149]

Multiple heals? Only wings of resolve outside of the main heal skill unless they slotted a merciful intervention or some other utility.Blocks? Longbow doesn't block so it's probably from the virtue or a scepter+focus (focus 5) or scepter+shield combination unless they run a melee swap such as sword+focus (sword 3 blocks ranged).

Renewed focus resets the virtues, which meaans wings of resolve, spear of justice, and aegis of courage become recharged. It's far weaker on DH overall if you think about it since a firebrand gets all tomes back.

I have no vested interest in defending DH (see my post on trueshot thread) because I generally don't play DH. However, if you look at ranger vs DH , the reason why rangers were hit is because of merged bonuses. Specifically soulbeasts with beast mastery were shaved down ; most are run with wilderness survival.

[Brujeria.7536]

I think both weapons should be nerfed even further - ranged weapons should always deal a lot less damage compared to meele weapons. This is just the natural tradeoff for being ranged.

[Revolution.5409]

Because there are those who can and who cannot, Guardian can Ranger no, simple

[Anput.4620]

@Infusion.7149 said:Multiple heals? Only wings of resolve outside of the main heal skill unless they slotted a merciful intervention or some other utility.Blocks? Longbow doesn't block so it's probably from the virtue or a scepter+focus (focus 5) or scepter+shield combination unless they run a melee swap such as sword+focus (sword 3 blocks ranged).

Renewed focus resets the virtues, which meaans wings of resolve, spear of justice, and aegis of courage become recharged. It's far weaker on DH overall if you think about it since a firebrand gets all tomes back.

I have no vested interest in defending DH (see my post on trueshot thread) because I generally don't play DH. However, if you look at ranger vs DH , the reason why rangers were hit is because of merged bonuses. Specifically soulbeasts with beast mastery were shaved down ; most are run with wilderness survival.

Every Medi heals.

With blocks i ment aegis, and focus 5.

I don't see why longbow soulbeasts are being nerfed when they are a pubstomp spec, not an actual good spec, SB longbow hasn't even been meta in PvP for a long time either in high ranks.

[Kovu.7560]

Guardians? Really?The only times I've lost to guardians in 1v1 are when I've missed my combos, wasted my cooldowns and/or been generally outplayed. On the flipside, there are hard carry builds for engis, condi mesmers, tanky elementalists, stealth ranged deadeyes, (and pre-patch warriors) that just shut any form of straight power ranger down. I found condition revenant to be annoying lately, too. Its sad that I'm killing a number of these folks on my tanky metabattle cookie-cutter trailblazer faceroll-keyboard scourge that I can barely touch on my ranger.Dragonhunters have some of the more telegraphed abilities in the game, (including true shot which roots them) and are among the most predictable rotation-wise. Heck, spinny-burning-sword-of-death is more of a threat because that burning could get buried behind other conditions and those folks are generally more tanky themselves. You could throw a dart at a board and likely find a build more threatening to ranger than anything most guardians put out offensively.

That said I haven't been hit with a 10k trueshot in recent memory, and my ranger is usually fairly glass. Generally if I don't avoid the attack in wvw it connects for 4-7k. Closer to 4 if I have protection or other forms of damage mitigation going. I would certainly argue there are aspects of guardian that need to be toned down, though true shot or their general damage output are not among those things.

~ Kovu

edit- oops, forgot this was in the wvw subforum, not the ranger subform. Adjusted post slightly. >.>

[Mokk.2397]

People can't compare true shot with any of the Ranger long bow skills as being equal . True shot carries a coefficient of 2.44 for a single shot with a cool down of 4 sec and a 3/4 second activation . Non of the ranger long bow skills carry that kind of punch . Even rapid fire is misleading as being an over powered skill but it only carries a coefficient of 0.275 per shot NOT the 2.75 presented in the description. Rapid fire requires all 10 shots to achieve the posted maximum damage. Rapid fire also has a 10 second cool down and 2.5 second activation. In 5.5 seconds true shot can be fired twice . which amounts to over 2 times the damage with 2 shots compared to 10 shots from rapid fire over the same time frame . So I would say that True Shot definitely requires looking into.