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Which class is underperforming? 5 vs 5

Tayga.3192

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Arheundel.6451

Arheundel.6451

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@apharma.3741 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam.

Maybe mesmer players should have advocated for the removal of the problematic traits like
IH
and
chronophantasm
...instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow

Weird because quite a lot of mesmer players actually said that the problem is mirage cloak being busted in it's concept, something even you seem to miss. Weird huh.

Also I didn't sow those seeds, go find me a post where I say "if you nerf those I quit", I dare you to try.

Maybe if all those mesmer players would have stopped the whole "nerf my soft/hard counter"...you would have not ended up in a situation where nobody could stop you...that would have saved you from many nerfs, do you remember all the nerf threads started by mesmer main asking to nerf side duellists like ranger, ele etc etc?

Always told you guys..the nerfs you suggest to others will inevitably come back to stab you in the back..it's a cycle

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

Posted
Posted

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam.

Maybe mesmer players should have advocated for the removal of the problematic traits like
IH
and
chronophantasm
...instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow

Weird because quite a lot of mesmer players actually said that the problem is mirage cloak being busted in it's concept, something even you seem to miss. Weird huh.

Also I didn't sow those seeds, go find me a post where I say "if you nerf those I quit", I dare you to try.

Maybe if all those mesmer players would have stopped the whole "nerf my soft/hard counter"...you would have not ended up in a situation where nobody could stop you...that would have saved you from many nerfs, do you remember all the nerf threads started by mesmer main asking to nerf side duellists like ranger, ele etc etc?

Always told you guys..the nerfs you suggest to others will inevitably come back to stab you in the back..it's a cycle

No what you said was "instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow"

You generalised to include that specific wording when many "mesmer players" worth listening to were actually explaining what was wrong with mesmer and how it should be toned down. You also singled me out, probably because of a comment a month ago you didn't like about rangers, with this comment implying that you specifically direct it at me. However even a half look or noticing my posts for the last year or two you'd find many comments that are not as you make out, here's a few very recently by just checking my comments section:

"It's not just sic'em, they're overloaded across the board and need slight adjustments to a lot of areas with a big hit on some of the damage mods. I'm not saying destroy ranger, just tone it down." - Quite a fair statement tbh.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1188790#Comment_1188790

"Buffing mesmer without addressing the problems that still persist but nerfed down into irrelevancy is a bad idea." - More details on mechanics that are broken on mesmer in the actual comment and why mesmer shouldn't be buffed without dealing with them.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1183839#Comment_1183839

Heck this same blooming thread: "The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam."

Edit: "Always told you guys..the nerfs you suggest to others will inevitably come back to stab you in the back..it's a cycle" - it's actually really funny you say this because this is what I was saying way back when people were complaining about CI on mesmer and probably a bit before. That if they advocate for gutting a class like many asked for then don't be surprised by a lack of sympathy when it happens to you in the future.

Also it's funny you generalise "mesmer mains" when here's a well known ranger main thread advocating for deleting a whole skill category when only 2 mantras were particularly over performing: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87126/for-the-love-of-god-delete-mesmer-mantras/p1

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ZhouX.8742

ZhouX.8742

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@apharma.3741 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam.

Maybe mesmer players should have advocated for the removal of the problematic traits like
IH
and
chronophantasm
...instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow

Weird because quite a lot of mesmer players actually said that the problem is mirage cloak being busted in it's concept, something even you seem to miss. Weird huh.

Also I didn't sow those seeds, go find me a post where I say "if you nerf those I quit", I dare you to try.

Maybe if all those mesmer players would have stopped the whole "nerf my soft/hard counter"...you would have not ended up in a situation where nobody could stop you...that would have saved you from many nerfs, do you remember all the nerf threads started by mesmer main asking to nerf side duellists like ranger, ele etc etc?

Always told you guys..the nerfs you suggest to others will inevitably come back to stab you in the back..it's a cycle

No what you said was "instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow"

You generalised to include that specific wording when many "mesmer players" worth listening to were actually explaining what was wrong with mesmer and how it should be toned down. You also singled me out, probably because of a comment a month ago you didn't like about rangers, with this comment implying that you specifically direct it at me. However even a half look or noticing my posts for the last year or two you'd find many comments that are not as you make out, here's a few very recently by just checking my comments section:

"It's not just sic'em, they're overloaded across the board and need
slight
adjustments to a lot of areas with a big hit on some of the damage mods. I'm not saying destroy ranger, just tone it down." - Quite a fair statement tbh.

"Buffing mesmer without addressing the problems that still persist but nerfed down into irrelevancy is a bad idea." - More details on mechanics that are broken on mesmer in the actual comment and why mesmer shouldn't be buffed without dealing with them.

Heck this same blooming thread: "The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam."

Edit: "Always told you guys..the nerfs you suggest to others will inevitably come back to stab you in the back..it's a cycle" - it's actually really funny you say this because this is what I was saying way back when people were complaining about CI on mesmer and probably a bit before. That if they advocate for gutting a class like many asked for then don't be surprised by a lack of sympathy when it happens to you in the future.

Also it's funny you generalise "mesmer mains" when here's a well known ranger main thread advocating for deleting a whole skill category when only 2 mantras were particularly over performing:

regarding mantras, it's not a question of op, it's a question of skill design and how unhealthy the concepts are for the game at a top level.

if you disagree with him, just duel him and test his knowledge on the subjects he types about. shadowfall generally has a good grasp on the classes as he plays in the inners constantly and regularly plays against top players and is a good player, and i don't think what he suggests is necessarily unfair and usually quite reasonable. .

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AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam.

Maybe mesmer players should have advocated for the removal of the problematic traits like
IH
and
chronophantasm
...instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow

Weird because quite a lot of mesmer players actually said that the problem is mirage cloak being busted in it's concept, something even you seem to miss. Weird huh.

Also I didn't sow those seeds, go find me a post where I say "if you nerf those I quit", I dare you to try.

Maybe if all those mesmer players would have stopped the whole "nerf my soft/hard counter"...you would have not ended up in a situation where nobody could stop you...that would have saved you from many nerfs, do you remember all the nerf threads started by mesmer main asking to nerf side duellists like ranger, ele etc etc?

Always told you guys..the nerfs you suggest to others will inevitably come back to stab you in the back..it's a cycle

You should point the finger at the people actually making these decisions. Even if you're right, "I told you so!" is less than useful commentary.

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storm.3120

storm.3120

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam.

Maybe mesmer players should have advocated for the removal of the problematic traits like
IH
and
chronophantasm
...instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sowIdk, is he cluless af or just trolling ?Years ago when chrono was the problem I said they should delete CP instead of nuking all phantasms (and this defender/disenchanter with 500% dmg buffs, lol), instead to not rebalance mesmer for PVE they just nuked phantasms in PVP and for pve sake deleted chrono (bois speedrunners got on their nerves when used split ooc).The same on mirage, many threads with suggestions what to change and they cant just delete IH or condi mirage DPS reach 10k number and could simply transfer damage to mes and remove it from ambushes. Instead they listen to ~silver lvl "players" and nerfing everything but not the issue.

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Sznurek.8791

Sznurek.8791

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@Tayga.3192 said: Don't worry, Condi Mirage will probably win mAT so you will have more fake proofs that mirage is OP.I don't get it.Mesmer is top player in the game, it's also one of top players in real ranked games(monthly tournaments).This game has quite a lot of good players like sind, boyce etc.But none of them was better in current meta than mesmer.And somehow we are still suggesting non ironically that mesmer is too weak and needs buffs?Mesmer was ridicoulsly OP for very long time, I think it's quite normal right now.

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Lincolnbeard.1735

Lincolnbeard.1735

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@ZhouX.8742 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam.

Maybe mesmer players should have advocated for the removal of the problematic traits like
IH
and
chronophantasm
...instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow

Weird because quite a lot of mesmer players actually said that the problem is mirage cloak being busted in it's concept, something even you seem to miss. Weird huh.

Also I didn't sow those seeds, go find me a post where I say "if you nerf those I quit", I dare you to try.

Maybe if all those mesmer players would have stopped the whole "nerf my soft/hard counter"...you would have not ended up in a situation where nobody could stop you...that would have saved you from many nerfs, do you remember all the nerf threads started by mesmer main asking to nerf side duellists like ranger, ele etc etc?

Always told you guys..the nerfs you suggest to others will inevitably come back to stab you in the back..it's a cycle

No what you said was "instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow"

You generalised to include that specific wording when many "mesmer players" worth listening to were actually explaining what was wrong with mesmer and how it should be toned down. You also singled me out, probably because of a comment a month ago you didn't like about rangers, with this comment implying that you specifically direct it at me. However even a half look or noticing my posts for the last year or two you'd find many comments that are not as you make out, here's a few very recently by just checking my comments section:

"It's not just sic'em, they're overloaded across the board and need
slight
adjustments to a lot of areas with a big hit on some of the damage mods. I'm not saying destroy ranger, just tone it down." - Quite a fair statement tbh.

"Buffing mesmer without addressing the problems that still persist but nerfed down into irrelevancy is a bad idea." - More details on mechanics that are broken on mesmer in the actual comment and why mesmer shouldn't be buffed without dealing with them.

Heck this same blooming thread: "The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam."

Edit: "Always told you guys..the nerfs you suggest to others will inevitably come back to stab you in the back..it's a cycle" - it's actually really funny you say this because this is what I was saying way back when people were complaining about CI on mesmer and probably a bit before. That if they advocate for gutting a class like many asked for then don't be surprised by a lack of sympathy when it happens to you in the future.

Also it's funny you generalise "mesmer mains" when here's a well known ranger main thread advocating for deleting a whole skill category when only 2 mantras were particularly over performing:

regarding mantras, it's not a question of op, it's a question of skill design and how unhealthy the concepts are for the game at a top level.

if you disagree with him, just duel him and test his knowledge on the subjects he types about. shadowfall generally has a good grasp on the classes as he plays in the inners constantly and regularly plays against top players and is a good player, and i don't think what he suggests is necessarily unfair and usually quite reasonable. .

Funny you mentioned this.I too proposed a duel between shadowfall and Odik, Odik playing ranger and him playing whatever he wanted (even the op af mirage). Duel got turned down by shadow fall. (and I got moderated for proposing the duel).And no shadowfall doesn't really have a grasp on anything and he's biased af.

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pninak.1069

pninak.1069

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How does it get classified what's overperforming. Sure you can look at top 100 players. If this is the case I'd nerf the class that's mostly present across the 100. Doubt it is gonna be mirage. I also wonder where people get to know who is in the top 100. I haven't watched the tournament and there are no leaderboards for it.

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storm.3120

storm.3120

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@Sznurek.8791 said:

@Tayga.3192 said: Don't worry, Condi Mirage will probably win mAT so you will have more fake proofs that mirage is OP.I don't get it.Dw, thats happens when you, common sense and logic say good bye to each other.
Mesmer
Misha is top player in the game, it's also one of top players in real ranked games(monthly tournaments).This game has quite a lot of good players like sind, boyce etc.But none of them was better than Misha at mesmer.And somehow we are still suggesting non ironically that Misha
mesmer
is too weak and needs buffs?Misha
Mesmer
was ridicoulsly OP for very long time, I think it's quite normal right now.Now it makes more sense

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Arheundel.6451

Arheundel.6451

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@Odik.4587 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said: Don't worry, Condi Mirage will probably win mAT so you will have more fake proofs that mirage is OP.I don't get it.Dw, thats happens when you, common sense and logic say good bye to each other.
Mesmer
Misha is top player in the game, it's also one of top players in real ranked games(monthly tournaments).This game has quite a lot of good players like sind, boyce etc.But none of them was better than Misha at mesmer.And somehow we are still suggesting non ironically that Misha
mesmer
is too weak and needs buffs?Misha
Mesmer
was ridicoulsly OP for very long time, I think it's quite normal right now.Now it makes more sense

Despite your claims....the amount of mesmers during this last tournament speaks for itself compared to the classes/specs you whine about....double revs, necs, tempest, firebrands, holos and mesmers with some thief....strange..I was expecting rangers with double bird one shotting everything accordingly to your "experiences"

Ofc I am not stating that mesmer is OP or in the best spot ever...it's still far from the unplayable level few mesmer fanboys want us to believe

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viquing.8254

viquing.8254

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@Arheundel.6451 too

@Sznurek.8791 said:

@Tayga.3192 said: Don't worry, Condi Mirage will probably win mAT so you will have more fake proofs that mirage is OP.I don't get it.Mesmer is top player in the game, it's also one of top players in real ranked games(monthly tournaments).This game has quite a lot of good players like sind, boyce etc.But none of them was better in current meta than mesmer.And somehow we are still suggesting non ironically that mesmer is too weak and needs buffs?Mesmer was ridicoulsly OP for very long time, I think it's quite normal right now.

If you don't get it, I can explain to you :

  • About leaderboard : 5v5 is all about rotations and they play one of the best rotationnal comp in this game + they are good players who team play for ages.
  • About 5v5 : portal bring something when you play with player capable to get use of it. (mean just with this they should have win vs the full tank french worms team because of portal high pressure spike on point.).

Now looking at two days ago regular At matchs :

@"viquing.8254" said:On a side note, when I look at misha gameplay (current 1st EU, best mesmer in this game), and to give you an idea of how mesmer role evoluate :https://www.twitch.tv/videos/576743694?t=01h50m14sLook also at the 3 next matchs.What I see is that :

  • He has regulary the most dead in his team.
  • He spend most of his time with < 50% hp.
  • 80% of the time, he is running from point to point dropping portal.
  • He spam evade to mobility and condiclear, and sustain only with weapon and utility.
  • He can't 1v1 anything.
  • He die to random aoe in teamfight.
  • It should be worst if he didn't get some vigor from teamate.

I will not deny that it's viable but give people time to learn to eat this. There were also plethora of teams who should get a chance of countering it who get ejected from mAt thanks to swiss shadow rules.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam.

Maybe mesmer players should have advocated for the removal of the problematic traits like
IH
and
chronophantasm
...instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow

Weird because quite a lot of mesmer players actually said that the problem is mirage cloak being busted in it's concept, something even you seem to miss. Weird huh.

Also I didn't sow those seeds, go find me a post where I say "if you nerf those I quit", I dare you to try.

Maybe if all those mesmer players would have stopped the whole "nerf my soft/hard counter"...you would have not ended up in a situation where nobody could stop you...that would have saved you from many nerfs, do you remember all the nerf threads started by mesmer main asking to nerf side duellists like ranger, ele etc etc?

Always told you guys..the nerfs you suggest to others will inevitably come back to stab you in the back..it's a cycle

No what you said was "instead mesmers were all "if you nerf those I quit"...well anet went and nerfed all around it..you reap what you sow"

You generalised to include that specific wording when many "mesmer players" worth listening to were actually explaining what was wrong with mesmer and how it should be toned down. You also singled me out, probably because of a comment a month ago you didn't like about rangers, with this comment implying that you specifically direct it at me. However even a half look or noticing my posts for the last year or two you'd find many comments that are not as you make out, here's a few very recently by just checking my comments section:

"It's not just sic'em, they're overloaded across the board and need
slight
adjustments to a lot of areas with a big hit on some of the damage mods. I'm not saying destroy ranger, just tone it down." - Quite a fair statement tbh.

"Buffing mesmer without addressing the problems that still persist but nerfed down into irrelevancy is a bad idea." - More details on mechanics that are broken on mesmer in the actual comment and why mesmer shouldn't be buffed without dealing with them.

Heck this same blooming thread: "The state of mesmer at the moment is an absolute mess, it really needs some trait reworks and optimising so that it's got clear purposes and uses without being a budget version of something else or an overpowered inescapable juggernaut of low skill clutter spam."

Edit: "Always told you guys..the nerfs you suggest to others will inevitably come back to stab you in the back..it's a cycle" - it's actually really funny you say this because this is what I was saying way back when people were complaining about CI on mesmer and probably a bit before. That if they advocate for gutting a class like many asked for then don't be surprised by a lack of sympathy when it happens to you in the future.

Also it's funny you generalise "mesmer mains" when here's a well known ranger main thread advocating for deleting a whole skill category when only 2 mantras were particularly over performing:

regarding mantras, it's not a question of op, it's a question of skill design and how unhealthy the concepts are for the game at a top level.

if you disagree with him, just duel him and test his knowledge on the subjects he types about. shadowfall generally has a good grasp on the classes as he plays in the inners constantly and regularly plays against top players and is a good player, and i don't think what he suggests is necessarily unfair and usually quite reasonable. .

Funny you mentioned this.I too proposed a duel between shadowfall and Odik, Odik playing ranger and him playing whatever he wanted (even the op af mirage). Duel got turned down by shadow fall. (and I got moderated for proposing the duel).And no shadowfall doesn't really have a grasp on anything and he's biased af.

Does anyone remember that he said mesmer auto crits for 7k? to prove it he attack light target golem with might stacks on glass build and like 20 vulnerability.But later to prove ranger is shit he walked up to golem and smacked it with maul with 0 might, 0 vuln no sicem nothing for 3,5k and said this is normal dmg xd

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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I think it got quite clear when watching at the few Mirages (only 3 if i didn't forget anyone) in the last 8 teams, 2 of the 3 only switched to Mirage when facing Mishas team (playing Rev or Ranger otherwise) to counter portal, not to counter Misha and his build aside from portal (what still failed because Flandre sucks in general and even more compared to Misha, just like Mes Ritu is way worse than Misha too). Often they needed to waste their portal for simple self sustain what turns it into a skill with way too long cd and way too short duration for a simple self sustain skill. Decoy/ SoM would do a better job for that. 2 out of 3 Mirages were either dead very often or trying to survive with high costs by having low impact in fights/ on the match (from the high need to focus on staying safe and alive) aside from some very few portal plays for their team.

And Misha didn't share the same fate not because he is also much better than the 2 other Mirages we saw, but mostly because he was in the dominating team and protected by the best Thief and Rev killing every threat to Misha before they could even start to organize a focus on him. With that Misha could focus on good portal plays what also was his biggest value for the matches. And that even with Condimirage. A Powermirage was not seen anywhere. One tried a bunker build, also only value with portal and failed still.

Means in the end the argument stays, that having one Condimirage and one Powermirage can make it work to some extent in ranked is not a prove of viability from the spec. Powermirage was not seen in mATs at all and Condimirage worked for one player not being perma dead or utterly useless aside from some portal plays and that only because of being in the overall stronger team didn't give any possibility to the opponents team to coordinate focused teamplay make Misha perma respawning too. He has pretty good teammates who know how to peel for him when Thieves or Revs ever get the opportunity at all to chase his soul. Good players can peel for him and protect him from everything that would normally easy hardcounter and neutralize every Mesmer no matter how good he plays. In the end it was not only Misha, it was the whole team needed to make even Condimirage work and the biggest value was portal not the build itself. And 2 out of 3 Mirages only switched to Mirage from much stronger classes to counter portal only.

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