Before destroying ranger again

[lorddavito.2395]

As a ranger main I can clearly see why people hate this class, but let me be very clear on this, RANGER IS FINE.

Pets are not however.Birds do 5-9k easilyTiger does 9k easily

Maul is actually fine. People complain because they don't dodge it, or the clear chain it's used in. Maybe an idea to increase visibility of this skill? Instead of a bear use a whale.

Just please, before destroying ranger ONCE AGAIN (its finally playable in ranked........) please look into pets.

[Tayga.3192]

tbh give ranger back some damage and make pets pure utility (boonrip, cc on f2, blind, immobilize, weakness, condi cleanse etc)

OR make the ranger utility focused and pets do the damage but AI is kinda problematic so don't do that.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

my main complaint at this point is that there are so many damn things to dodge, more so then most other classes and if you don't then there goes half your hp. its whatever tho I hardly see any rangers.

[dronte.3416]

Agree. Core ranger is fine, there is no problem with Maul. Doesn't hit harder than most warrior skills.

Fix pet coeffs and we are fine

[Sigmoid.7082]

I mean if you watch the teatime with CMC at 1:44:00 he goes through about AI and mentions he thinks some pets do too much damage and how they didn't have time to go through each and every one which is why they are the way they are at the moment.

They are likely to get brought down much like everything else eventually. Just don't be surprised when they are. Though I can see certain members of the community being "we needed that damage", "can't believe you listened to the whiners" , etc all the standard arguments when something that's over performing gets toned down.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Agreed.

Maul is alright now, but a handful of pets still hit like a truck and suggestions to waste damage skills on the pet (when soulbeast can still reset them by merging even), while the ranger freecasts on you and retains a plethora of stunbreak and cleanse skills to deal with you when you finally get done with that are silly.

@Tayga.3192 said:tbh give ranger back some damage and make pets pure utility (boonrip, cc on f2, blind, immobilize, weakness, condi cleanse etc)OR make the ranger utility focused and pets do the damage but AI is kinda problematic so don't do that.

Ranger damage output is good right now. Maul hits about as hard as Berserker decapitate, they still retain a large portion of their damage modifiers on top of that, and they still have heavy evasion and defense in their kit.

All they need is damage shaves to specifically the pets that are being cheesed right now -because- they do so much damage. There's no need to move any damage to them or make pets any less effective than that.

[Revolution.5409]

@Tayga.3192 said:tbh give ranger back some damage and make pets pure utility (boonrip, cc on f2, blind, immobilize, weakness, condi cleanse etc)

In the old forum there were an infinite number of posts that required this, but in the end Anet reiterated several times that this profession must be played together with the pet.

Returning part of the damage to the Ranger would also amount to greater damage from Maul etc .. and indirectly a buffs to the damage of Slb, then the story of how it does too much damage etc ..

Personally what I am not understanding is what would be the ideal damage threshold that professions should have, we had nerfs to damage and CD increases but it seems that many here are not satisfied yet, with this I do not mean that birds / cats do not need to be fixed, but some comments are absurd.

[Brynioch.1873]

@"Sigmoid.7082" said:I mean if you watch the teatime with CMC at 1:44:00 he goes through about AI and mentions he thinks some pets do too much damage and how they didn't have time to go through each and every one which is why they are the way they are at the moment.

They are likely to get brought down much like everything else eventually. Just don't be surprised when they are. Though I can see certain members of the community being "we needed that damage", "can't believe you listened to the whiners" , etc all the standard arguments when something that's over performing gets toned down.

The damage is again a result of stacking an absurd amount of multiplayers. Instead of nerfing the pets ANet could finally have a look at the ranger traits und remove some of them or nerf them. Like finally reworking or removing opening strike.

But they will likely choose the easy route out as always and just nerf the pets forcing us even more into those gimmicky builds. Because ranger clearly isn't worth the effort. Just look at druid and it's state in PvP and WvW.People will just add Sic Em' and deal more damage than before and the crying will continue.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Revolution.5409 said:Personally what I am not understanding is what would be the ideal damage threshold that professions should have, we had nerfs to damage and CD increases but it seems that many here are not satisfied yet, with this I do not mean that birds / cats do not need to be fixed, but some comments are absurd.

Some people are slowly learning they cannot dodge/kite/save stunbreaks/interrupt key skills and that the only reason they got this far is because their rotation was so insulated they didn't need to learn how.

They aren't taking it well.

[Drachenfalke.7605]

Before crying for another nerfs… can we have the crazy build where cats are "auto-attacking" for 5 or 8 k?? Did someone realy test this on a heavy-Golem in the pvp-Lobby or are these just another "Fake-News"....?Cats Always did good Damage but no one used them because you could easily kite them and they had no knock downs. It's a Little bit strange that the Players are now complaining that they are to strong...

[Brynioch.1873]

@"Drachenfalke.7605" said:Before crying for another nerfs… can we have the crazy build where cats are "auto-attacking" for 5 or 8 k?? Did someone realy test this on a heavy-Golem in the pvp-Lobby or are these just another "Fake-News"....?Cats Always did good Damage but no one used them because you could easily kite them and they had no knock downs. It's a Little bit strange that the Players are now complaining that they are to strong...

[&DQQhKSArCC94AHgAuwAAALgAAACWAQAA7QAAAC8uAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

This is the build in question. It relies on Moment of Clarity and +25% Damage for Opening Strikes. The tiger gets it automatically back as you press F2 because you get fury and crits with the pounce.So you get +150 Strenght, 300 Ferocity, +50% Moment of Clarity, +25% Opening Strike and guaranted crit with 178% damage.

[apharma.3741]

@"Sigmoid.7082" said:I mean if you watch the teatime with CMC at 1:44:00 he goes through about AI and mentions he thinks some pets do too much damage and how they didn't have time to go through each and every one which is why they are the way they are at the moment.

They are likely to get brought down much like everything else eventually. Just don't be surprised when they are. Though I can see certain members of the community being "we needed that damage", "can't believe you listened to the whiners" , etc all the standard arguments when something that's over performing gets toned down.

If you actually look up some of the coefficients on the skills pets have they're pretty nutty. Now obviously a pet, in this example owl, might have 69.3% (1524/2200) the power stats and 0 additional ferocity vs players in berserker amulet, you can see that the coefficients are perhaps a little too high.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juvenile_Owl

5.5 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilling_Slash2.75 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop_(bird)3.16 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slash_(bird)

Now if we adjust these for the power stat being 69.3% (1524/2200) that of a players in zerk amulet we would get the equivalent value for what it would be like on a player:3.81 non crit (4.19)1.91 non crit (2.09)2.19 non crit (2.40)

Where we can see that this is very high in today's state of the game for raw power especially the F2 Chilling Slash. Now someone will say "Ah but crits are lower" and that's true but the precision on owl gives it a 62.7% crit chance and at 0 ferocity it has a base crit damage multiplier of 150% while a player in berserker amulet will usually have 210% so a difference of 30% however with Beastmastery owl will have 170% ferocity which means it does 20% less than players would on crit as well as 150 extra power, so let's adjust the coefficients for that.2.67 (3.35)1.34 (1.67)1.53 (1.92)

Most of these skills even adjusted for different power levels and ferocity values of the pet are much higher than what a player would have as coefficients in this current meta. The real question people should be discussing is "how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player?"

Note: With the extra 150 stats in beastmastery owl has 76.1% the power of a zerk amulet (1674/2200) and a ~70% crit chance.Edit: Forgot the beast mastery equivalent player coefficients for non crits, for those that don't understand, the worked out numbers are the coefficients an equivalent player skill would need to equal the damage of the owl when adjusting for pet stats.

[Tayga.3192]

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:tbh give ranger back some damage and make pets pure utility (boonrip, cc on f2, blind, immobilize, weakness, condi cleanse etc)In the old forum there were an infinite number of posts that required this, but in the end Anet reiterated several times that this profession must be played together with the pet.

That was long ago though. Never say never :P

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

[Eurantien.4632]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

[Dadnir.5038]

Honnestly, this is what you get by balancing broken mechanisms through coefficient tweaks. Addressing coefficients didn't make sPvP or WvW better it just opened the door for some forgotten broken mechanisms to shine. And here we got tons of threads asking for numbers tweaks on broken mechanisms again under the guise of fairness.

Wouldn't it be better to actually fix the broken mechanisms instead of trying again and again to make them match a standard that constantly change? If they nerf something today, tomorow players will feel a need for something else to be nerfed.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

[Vancho.8750]

I think they broke Ranger a lot when they made Counterattack work like Shield block with a cc tied to it. So in the end rangers ended up being way too good for melee since the ranger gs is like warrior gs with high damage skill + dodge attack but it also has warrior shield block and 2 stuns in 2 abilities and the auto attack is really good also, so rangers got the best parts of the warrior kit, but they are also good in range with longbow. Before you had to chose sword + dagger for defense or greatsword for the big burst, but now you don't need to since gs has the offense and defense in one kit. And rangers now fill the niche of other classes and do their job better, they have the kit of a warrior but warriors can be kited while rangers would switch to longbow and continue their damage. They are not weak in melee or range they have allot of stability so you have to build really niche builds to deal with them and we end up with something like condi and bunkers .Some classes have ended up being jack all trade and being master of all of them, while others have been sidelined to one trick ponies and the jack of all trades have taken their spot.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@"Tayga.3192" said:tbh give ranger back some damage and make pets pure utility (boonrip, cc on f2, blind, immobilize, weakness, condi cleanse etc)They gave the ranger back the damage, it was called "soulbeast" and amazingly people were just as mad about it. Almost as if rangers existing at all was the actual problem they had, or something...

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

many words to give no answer whatsoever.

[aymnad.9023]

@"Vancho.8750" said:I think they broke Ranger a lot when they made Counterattack work like Shield block with a cc tied to it. So in the end rangers ended up being way too good for melee since the ranger gs is like warrior gs with high damage skill + dodge attack but it also has warrior shield block and 2 stuns in 2 abilities and the auto attack is really good also, so rangers got the best parts of the warrior kit, but they are also good in range with longbow. Before you had to chose sword + dagger for defense or greatsword for the big burst, but now you don't need to since gs has the offense and defense in one kit. And rangers now fill the niche of other classes and do their job better, they have the kit of a warrior but warriors can be kited while rangers would switch to longbow and continue their damage. They are not weak in melee or range they have allot of stability so you have to build really niche builds to deal with them and we end up with something like condi and bunkers .Some classes have ended up being jack all trade and being master of all of them, while others have been sidelined to one trick ponies and the jack of all trades have taken their spot.I really do not know what to tell here...Lot of stab ? Max 1 source in all the builds.I miss the old sword, but that was also because axe offhand was useful (now it is just bad). Gs only has one very easy to notice offensive skill and thats all. It does not deal that much damage now.Better than warriors? Swapping to lb still means you are weak in close combat. A spellbreaker will use its superior tools to destroy you.Fill the niche of other professions and are better? Which ones? People love to tell incredible stories about sidenoders but Weaver, spellbreaker, holo are still superior.Yes it is a jack of all trade. This is why it is miles away from stealing anyone spots. Anything that other professions did better before the "shake up" patch they still do better.

[aymnad.9023]

You do not hit those numbers as easily as people love to say. You need the setup, vuln, buffs. If they want to have pet skills less often I am ok with that.If they want to nerf autos they will probably nerf it too much.Maybe people find it easy to play, but as soon as you play it often in plat you will realize how “average” core sidenoder is.If they nerf the pet I hope they have also buffs incoming because ranger does feel too reliable.

[Vancho.8750]

@aymnad.9023 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:I think they broke Ranger a lot when they made Counterattack work like Shield block with a cc tied to it. So in the end rangers ended up being way too good for melee since the ranger gs is like warrior gs with high damage skill + dodge attack but it also has warrior shield block and 2 stuns in 2 abilities and the auto attack is really good also, so rangers got the best parts of the warrior kit, but they are also good in range with longbow. Before you had to chose sword + dagger for defense or greatsword for the big burst, but now you don't need to since gs has the offense and defense in one kit. And rangers now fill the niche of other classes and do their job better, they have the kit of a warrior but warriors can be kited while rangers would switch to longbow and continue their damage. They are not weak in melee or range they have allot of stability so you have to build really niche builds to deal with them and we end up with something like condi and bunkers .Some classes have ended up being jack all trade and being master of all of them, while others have been sidelined to one trick ponies and the jack of all trades have taken their spot.I really do not know what to tell here...Lot of stab ? Max 1 source in all the builds.I miss the old sword, but that was also because axe offhand was useful (now it is just bad). Gs only has one very easy to notice offensive skill and thats all. It does not deal that much damage now.Better than warriors? Swapping to lb still means you are weak in close combat. A spellbreaker will use its superior tools to destroy you.Fill the niche of other professions and are better? Which ones? People love to tell incredible stories about sidenoders but Weaver, spellbreaker, holo are still superior.Yes it is a jack of all trade. This is why it is miles away from stealing anyone spots. Anything that other professions did better before the "shake up" patch they still do better.

Pretty touchy bruh, but ranger still stays as on the few builds that can still do 100 to 0 in seconds. And i did point that people will go for niche builds with condi or bunker or both together. The moment the condi bunker bullshit gets nerfed rangers would come on the top and would end up on the chopper again.So start theory crafting what is borked in being op and what is underpowerd, and what is the purpose of the build.