Good question about unhealthy mechanics(power+cc=0 dmg, but condi+cc=big dmg???).

[Smoosh.2718]

I really want to see condi dissapear from this game, it creates a very boring style of play.Constantly having AOE fields on the ground being spammed out with no end, forcing you to fight off point.Get hit once and end up with 10 burning stacks on you which can take you down to 25% health if not cleared. Get CC'd and you'll end up with 5 condi's stacked on you. Its really not a fun mechanic that just bores the hell out of me when i play against it.

I would rather get bitten by horseflies than play against condition damage.... No... actually i'd rather watch Food Fight on repeat than play against condition damage.

Also it is worth noting if your death breakdown says, say 20 ticks for 25k damage, that does not mean its duration was over 20s. As an example this damage could could be 2s of 10 stacks of burning, meaning you took 12,500 damage per second. I know this number isnt realistic in the PvP scheme, however i have seen 4-6k burn ticks many times which will give a 20,000 HP player 3.3-5s to live.

Scenario:You've been stunned and a massive condi bomb has just landed on you, if you don't do something you'll die in a few seconds.

The action you will have to take here, is stunbreak and clense. two utilities have now been used up from one attack. You are now left defenceless and free to be chilled, burned, feared, confused tormented and imobilised. Depending how you build you very well may have 1 more stun break or 1 more clense but you wont be able to stop the next onslaught of attacks if you don't back off.

Now the same scenario but vs power.You stun break. Using 1 utility skill, you still have two unused utility skills allowing you to stay in the fight.

A counter to this could be dodge. Yes this works on skills like Rush or other Leap skills as an example. This does not work against, AoE fields, utility skills that provide a large amount of burning stacks on the next attack or auto attack conditions that you just can not evade.

The two damage forms are not the same to negate, far more effort (through utility skills, dodging, amulets/runes) has to go into avoiding condition damage than power.

This is the reason why condition damage has ruined the PvP scene.

[Curennos.9307]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:It seems like condi is currently a little out of date, design wise. The shenanigans people are trying to pull to misportray condi ('it's just a bunch of sequential power bursts' lmao) aside - it seems like people want condi builds to be even

more

damage over time but don't want those same builds to have the survivability necessary for that to work.

Personally, I agree - nerf condi more, re-tune cleanses a little bit, AND give condi builds the survivability they need to actually make that playstyle work. I'm so tired of being forced to waste amulet space on power stats. But let's not pretend getting 5k burn ticks is anything other than utter failure on the part of the target.

I mean personally I would want condis reworked. Straight up cut condi removal removing damage condis, thats where a lot of the problems originate. The idea of condi as a sustained damage alternative to powers more bursty playstyle doesnt work when, once the enemy has some condis that will do a bunch of damage over the next 5 or 10 seconds on him, they just get cleansed and youre back to square 0. Thats why instead, condi builds are even burstier than power builds. Whats more, theyre just incredibly binary. If you have enough cleanses, there is jack all they can do. If you dont, you lose and there is jack all

you

can do.

So instead, make them uncleansable, letting them actually be sustained damage alternatives. Lower the damage accross the board by a lot (obviously). And most importantly, change how condis are applied. Right now, a lot of condi bursts are problems because not only do you take a metric kitten ton of damage in a single tick, you couldnt even avoid those condis even if you had perfect reactions, because most condi builds fall into one of 3 categories. Pulsing fields covering the point you kinda need to stand on to win the gamemode. Instant cast skills that you cant avoid. And on-X effects that dont get consumed, that would require you to have 100% evade/block uptime to not get hit by (which is obviously not doable).

Eh. I would rather anet review and rework things on a class by class basis. You have things like firebrand where they have powerful aoe denial skills they can stand in that contribute to their sustain combined with relatively easily accessible projectile denial. In this case, it isnt so much the condis I take issue with so much as the mechanical aspects of how some parts of the class work.

And on the other hand, you have stuff like fire weaver, which was good in 5v5 because it revolved around node control and fire weaver can turn into a 'get off the point or perish, sucker' fire vortex, but the setup suffers in deathmatch because it actually kind of sucks at sticking to a target. Plus like...map design and stuff.

And then theres thief, which...yeah. So point is condi has different troublesome impacts depending on class and situation.

That is not to say condi on it's own does not have issues (Weakness and Resistance are still absolutely kitten stupid, and I could definitely go for more of a ramp-up time), but I don't think it's a good idea to fling out a condi rework when the issue is so...attached to and a result of a lot of other things as well. Instant cast skills that apply condis arent a condi issue, it's a problem with the skill being instant cast, etc etc.

Right, but the actual different skill types would be evaluated on a case by case basis at the last step. But

all

condi has the problem of being binary and bursty instead of sustained damage. It not being cleansable is a neccessary first step if we want to fix that.

Has anyone done the math on power vs condi 'burst' in x/y/z timeframe? What's the difference between condis being bursty and not bursty, what would make it sustained damage? I've never really seen much on the forums beyond 'I stood next to a fire weaver during their burst phase and did nothing so I ended up dead'.

On another note, no - definitely not. Condis don't exist in a vacuum, and different skill types and such should be looked at first. I do not want to end up 'fixing' condi around other flaws already present. Making damaging condis is not necessary in the slightest - it's definitely an option, but imo only a last resort thing.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:It seems like condi is currently a little out of date, design wise. The shenanigans people are trying to pull to misportray condi ('it's just a bunch of sequential power bursts' lmao) aside - it seems like people want condi builds to be even

more

damage over time but don't want those same builds to have the survivability necessary for that to work.

Personally, I agree - nerf condi more, re-tune cleanses a little bit, AND give condi builds the survivability they need to actually make that playstyle work. I'm so tired of being forced to waste amulet space on power stats. But let's not pretend getting 5k burn ticks is anything other than utter failure on the part of the target.

I mean personally I would want condis reworked. Straight up cut condi removal removing damage condis, thats where a lot of the problems originate. The idea of condi as a sustained damage alternative to powers more bursty playstyle doesnt work when, once the enemy has some condis that will do a bunch of damage over the next 5 or 10 seconds on him, they just get cleansed and youre back to square 0. Thats why instead, condi builds are even burstier than power builds. Whats more, theyre just incredibly binary. If you have enough cleanses, there is jack all they can do. If you dont, you lose and there is jack all

you

can do.

So instead, make them uncleansable, letting them actually be sustained damage alternatives. Lower the damage accross the board by a lot (obviously). And most importantly, change how condis are applied. Right now, a lot of condi bursts are problems because not only do you take a metric kitten ton of damage in a single tick, you couldnt even avoid those condis even if you had perfect reactions, because most condi builds fall into one of 3 categories. Pulsing fields covering the point you kinda need to stand on to win the gamemode. Instant cast skills that you cant avoid. And on-X effects that dont get consumed, that would require you to have 100% evade/block uptime to not get hit by (which is obviously not doable).

Eh. I would rather anet review and rework things on a class by class basis. You have things like firebrand where they have powerful aoe denial skills they can stand in that contribute to their sustain combined with relatively easily accessible projectile denial. In this case, it isnt so much the condis I take issue with so much as the mechanical aspects of how some parts of the class work.

And on the other hand, you have stuff like fire weaver, which was good in 5v5 because it revolved around node control and fire weaver can turn into a 'get off the point or perish, sucker' fire vortex, but the setup suffers in deathmatch because it actually kind of sucks at sticking to a target. Plus like...map design and stuff.

And then theres thief, which...yeah. So point is condi has different troublesome impacts depending on class and situation.

That is not to say condi on it's own does not have issues (Weakness and Resistance are still absolutely kitten stupid, and I could definitely go for more of a ramp-up time), but I don't think it's a good idea to fling out a condi rework when the issue is so...attached to and a result of a lot of other things as well. Instant cast skills that apply condis arent a condi issue, it's a problem with the skill being instant cast, etc etc.

Right, but the actual different skill types would be evaluated on a case by case basis at the last step. But

all

condi has the problem of being binary and bursty instead of sustained damage. It not being cleansable is a neccessary first step if we want to fix that.

Has anyone done the math on power vs condi 'burst' in x/y/z timeframe? What's the difference between condis being bursty and not bursty, what would make it sustained damage? I've never really seen much on the forums beyond 'I stood next to a fire weaver during their burst phase and did nothing so I ended up dead'.

The problem for exact math is too many variables. Damage reduction that primarily targets power, cleanses (in particular auto-cleanses) with some amount of RNG, you get the drill. As for what would make it sustained damage, simple. Lets start with an example like, hm. Death Blossom. Death Blossom applies 10 seconds of bleed with each hit, up to 3 per Blossom. Prior to the (arguably random) nerf recently, you could chain 4 or 5 death blossoms and have 12-15 stacks of bleeding ticking upwards of 10 seconds (bleed duration is a thing). Hypothetically this is an absurd amount of damage it would do. Even more with the poison from Deadly Ambition. But it will barely do a fraction of this damage. Because they just get all cleansed. As a result, the damage is tuned to be extremely high even with a lot fewer ticks. The full 10+ seconds would be ridiculous overkill, killing a target 6+ times over.

Now, lets assume you couldnt cleanse it. Now you could drastically reduce the damage, knowing that the full 10 seconds will happen. It will still kill, just not as fast, in exchange for having more sustained damage. Thats the point of condi, and this way we can achieve it.

On another note, no - definitely not. Condis don't exist in a vacuum, and different skill types and such should be looked at first. I do not want to end up 'fixing' condi around other flaws already present. Making damaging condis is not necessary in the slightest - it's definitely an option, but imo only a last resort thing.

Making them uncleansable is neccessary, because no matter what you change otherwise, as long as they can be cleansed, they remain binary and bursty. That cant ever change otherwise. Its also suffocating build variety as every build has to have multiple cleanses available at all time (or they auto-lose to any condi build), and it makes classes with weaker condi clearing simply underperform consistently.

[Curennos.9307]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:It seems like condi is currently a little out of date, design wise. The shenanigans people are trying to pull to misportray condi ('it's just a bunch of sequential power bursts' lmao) aside - it seems like people want condi builds to be even

more

damage over time but don't want those same builds to have the survivability necessary for that to work.

Personally, I agree - nerf condi more, re-tune cleanses a little bit, AND give condi builds the survivability they need to actually make that playstyle work. I'm so tired of being forced to waste amulet space on power stats. But let's not pretend getting 5k burn ticks is anything other than utter failure on the part of the target.

I mean personally I would want condis reworked. Straight up cut condi removal removing damage condis, thats where a lot of the problems originate. The idea of condi as a sustained damage alternative to powers more bursty playstyle doesnt work when, once the enemy has some condis that will do a bunch of damage over the next 5 or 10 seconds on him, they just get cleansed and youre back to square 0. Thats why instead, condi builds are even burstier than power builds. Whats more, theyre just incredibly binary. If you have enough cleanses, there is jack all they can do. If you dont, you lose and there is jack all

you

can do.

So instead, make them uncleansable, letting them actually be sustained damage alternatives. Lower the damage accross the board by a lot (obviously). And most importantly, change how condis are applied. Right now, a lot of condi bursts are problems because not only do you take a metric kitten ton of damage in a single tick, you couldnt even avoid those condis even if you had perfect reactions, because most condi builds fall into one of 3 categories. Pulsing fields covering the point you kinda need to stand on to win the gamemode. Instant cast skills that you cant avoid. And on-X effects that dont get consumed, that would require you to have 100% evade/block uptime to not get hit by (which is obviously not doable).

Eh. I would rather anet review and rework things on a class by class basis. You have things like firebrand where they have powerful aoe denial skills they can stand in that contribute to their sustain combined with relatively easily accessible projectile denial. In this case, it isnt so much the condis I take issue with so much as the mechanical aspects of how some parts of the class work.

And on the other hand, you have stuff like fire weaver, which was good in 5v5 because it revolved around node control and fire weaver can turn into a 'get off the point or perish, sucker' fire vortex, but the setup suffers in deathmatch because it actually kind of sucks at sticking to a target. Plus like...map design and stuff.

And then theres thief, which...yeah. So point is condi has different troublesome impacts depending on class and situation.

That is not to say condi on it's own does not have issues (Weakness and Resistance are still absolutely kitten stupid, and I could definitely go for more of a ramp-up time), but I don't think it's a good idea to fling out a condi rework when the issue is so...attached to and a result of a lot of other things as well. Instant cast skills that apply condis arent a condi issue, it's a problem with the skill being instant cast, etc etc.

Right, but the actual different skill types would be evaluated on a case by case basis at the last step. But

all

condi has the problem of being binary and bursty instead of sustained damage. It not being cleansable is a neccessary first step if we want to fix that.

Has anyone done the math on power vs condi 'burst' in x/y/z timeframe? What's the difference between condis being bursty and not bursty, what would make it sustained damage? I've never really seen much on the forums beyond 'I stood next to a fire weaver during their burst phase and did nothing so I ended up dead'.

The problem for exact math is too many variables. Damage reduction that primarily targets power, cleanses (in particular auto-cleanses) with some amount of RNG, you get the drill. As for what would make it sustained damage, simple. Lets start with an example like, hm. Death Blossom. Death Blossom applies 10 seconds of bleed with each hit, up to 3 per Blossom. Prior to the (arguably random) nerf recently, you could chain 4 or 5 death blossoms and have 12-15 stacks of bleeding ticking upwards of 10 seconds (bleed duration is a thing). Hypothetically this is an

absurd

amount of damage it would do. Even more with the poison from Deadly Ambition. But it will barely do a fraction of this damage. Because they just get all cleansed. As a result, the damage is tuned to be extremely high even with a lot fewer ticks. The full 10+ seconds would be ridiculous overkill, killing a target 6+ times over.

Now, lets assume you couldnt cleanse it. Now you could

drastically

reduce the damage, knowing that the full 10 seconds will happen. It will still kill, just not as fast, in exchange for having more sustained damage. Thats the point of condi, and this way we can achieve it.

On another note, no - definitely not. Condis don't exist in a vacuum, and different skill types and such should be looked at

first

. I do not want to end up 'fixing' condi around other flaws already present. Making damaging condis is not necessary in the slightest - it's definitely an option, but imo only a last resort thing.

Making them uncleansable

is

neccessary, because no matter what you change otherwise, as long as they can be cleansed, they remain binary and bursty. That cant ever change otherwise. Its also suffocating build variety as

every

build has to have multiple cleanses available at all time (or they auto-lose to any condi build), and it makes classes with weaker condi clearing simply underperform consistently.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:It seems like condi is currently a little out of date, design wise. The shenanigans people are trying to pull to misportray condi ('it's just a bunch of sequential power bursts' lmao) aside - it seems like people want condi builds to be even

more

damage over time but don't want those same builds to have the survivability necessary for that to work.

Personally, I agree - nerf condi more, re-tune cleanses a little bit, AND give condi builds the survivability they need to actually make that playstyle work. I'm so tired of being forced to waste amulet space on power stats. But let's not pretend getting 5k burn ticks is anything other than utter failure on the part of the target.

I mean personally I would want condis reworked. Straight up cut condi removal removing damage condis, thats where a lot of the problems originate. The idea of condi as a sustained damage alternative to powers more bursty playstyle doesnt work when, once the enemy has some condis that will do a bunch of damage over the next 5 or 10 seconds on him, they just get cleansed and youre back to square 0. Thats why instead, condi builds are even burstier than power builds. Whats more, theyre just incredibly binary. If you have enough cleanses, there is jack all they can do. If you dont, you lose and there is jack all

you

can do.

So instead, make them uncleansable, letting them actually be sustained damage alternatives. Lower the damage accross the board by a lot (obviously). And most importantly, change how condis are applied. Right now, a lot of condi bursts are problems because not only do you take a metric kitten ton of damage in a single tick, you couldnt even avoid those condis even if you had perfect reactions, because most condi builds fall into one of 3 categories. Pulsing fields covering the point you kinda need to stand on to win the gamemode. Instant cast skills that you cant avoid. And on-X effects that dont get consumed, that would require you to have 100% evade/block uptime to not get hit by (which is obviously not doable).

Eh. I would rather anet review and rework things on a class by class basis. You have things like firebrand where they have powerful aoe denial skills they can stand in that contribute to their sustain combined with relatively easily accessible projectile denial. In this case, it isnt so much the condis I take issue with so much as the mechanical aspects of how some parts of the class work.

And on the other hand, you have stuff like fire weaver, which was good in 5v5 because it revolved around node control and fire weaver can turn into a 'get off the point or perish, sucker' fire vortex, but the setup suffers in deathmatch because it actually kind of sucks at sticking to a target. Plus like...map design and stuff.

And then theres thief, which...yeah. So point is condi has different troublesome impacts depending on class and situation.

That is not to say condi on it's own does not have issues (Weakness and Resistance are still absolutely kitten stupid, and I could definitely go for more of a ramp-up time), but I don't think it's a good idea to fling out a condi rework when the issue is so...attached to and a result of a lot of other things as well. Instant cast skills that apply condis arent a condi issue, it's a problem with the skill being instant cast, etc etc.

Right, but the actual different skill types would be evaluated on a case by case basis at the last step. But

all

condi has the problem of being binary and bursty instead of sustained damage. It not being cleansable is a neccessary first step if we want to fix that.

Has anyone done the math on power vs condi 'burst' in x/y/z timeframe? What's the difference between condis being bursty and not bursty, what would make it sustained damage? I've never really seen much on the forums beyond 'I stood next to a fire weaver during their burst phase and did nothing so I ended up dead'.

The problem for exact math is too many variables. Damage reduction that primarily targets power, cleanses (in particular auto-cleanses) with some amount of RNG, you get the drill. As for what would make it sustained damage, simple. Lets start with an example like, hm. Death Blossom. Death Blossom applies 10 seconds of bleed with each hit, up to 3 per Blossom. Prior to the (arguably random) nerf recently, you could chain 4 or 5 death blossoms and have 12-15 stacks of bleeding ticking upwards of 10 seconds (bleed duration is a thing). Hypothetically this is an

absurd

amount of damage it would do. Even more with the poison from Deadly Ambition. But it will barely do a fraction of this damage. Because they just get all cleansed. As a result, the damage is tuned to be extremely high even with a lot fewer ticks. The full 10+ seconds would be ridiculous overkill, killing a target 6+ times over.

Now, lets assume you couldnt cleanse it. Now you could

drastically

reduce the damage, knowing that the full 10 seconds will happen. It will still kill, just not as fast, in exchange for having more sustained damage. Thats the point of condi, and this way we can achieve it.

On another note, no - definitely not. Condis don't exist in a vacuum, and different skill types and such should be looked at

first

. I do not want to end up 'fixing' condi around other flaws already present. Making damaging condis is not necessary in the slightest - it's definitely an option, but imo only a last resort thing.

Making them uncleansable

is

neccessary, because no matter what you change otherwise, as long as they can be cleansed, they remain binary and bursty. That cant ever change otherwise. Its also suffocating build variety as

every

build has to have multiple cleanses available at all time (or they auto-lose to any condi build), and it makes classes with weaker condi clearing simply underperform consistently.

I don't disagree that condi could do with some shaving to make it more consistant. Random cleanses, condi application procs, etcetc make it very difficult to really tell what's going on, the overall impact, and the death recap isn't the most helpful thing in the world (especially the freaking on-crit traits to apply extra stacks, I HATE those). The UI in general could use some real tender loving care.

Clarification - by 'condi burst', do people/you just mean 'applying lots of condis at the same time'? Lots of stacks of burn or something? Or is it 'condi burst' in the sense of the amount of damage crammed into a short a period of time as possible. This is part of what I was trying to get at earlier - if there are too many different variables involved to the point where it's a struggle to try and even define what's going on as a basis to work off of when saying 'x is too bursty' etc, then it would be better to adjust those first, right?Because, if the former - then definitely, yes, I agree condi has way too many different methods of condi application it can layer together. That said, if the latter - I vehemently disagree that condi performs any kind of large burst of damage squeezed into a small a time frame as possible that needs changing.

I do think the former (I believe you described this as on-x effects that dont' get consumed, and the pulsing fields) are a big issue due to how they cut down on the value of defending against them - if I dodge a FB's axe 2 1st hit, I've...avoided the daze and maybe a few condis, but I'm probably still inside the field, so I'm not getting as much value out of my dodge/whatever I used to mitigate it. And even if I blind the first strike of the axe 2 symbol, a big chunk of the attack's value still goes through regardless.

I'll get part of this out of the way and just say I will freely admit it is quite possibly my own personal preference that I enjoy the managing cleanses vs my opponent's condi application and/or managing my condi application vs my opponent's cleanses. That's an interesting depth to attrition-type gameplay I would be kinda sad to see die. Cover condis in 1v1, and managing them in group play, is also something I find quite fun. I don't think your idea is a flat out miss, either - it def wouldn't be the end of the world of my fun in the game if it was implemented. shrug Not a necessary thing - but totally workable.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:It seems like condi is currently a little out of date, design wise. The shenanigans people are trying to pull to misportray condi ('it's just a bunch of sequential power bursts' lmao) aside - it seems like people want condi builds to be even

more

damage over time but don't want those same builds to have the survivability necessary for that to work.

Personally, I agree - nerf condi more, re-tune cleanses a little bit, AND give condi builds the survivability they need to actually make that playstyle work. I'm so tired of being forced to waste amulet space on power stats. But let's not pretend getting 5k burn ticks is anything other than utter failure on the part of the target.

I mean personally I would want condis reworked. Straight up cut condi removal removing damage condis, thats where a lot of the problems originate. The idea of condi as a sustained damage alternative to powers more bursty playstyle doesnt work when, once the enemy has some condis that will do a bunch of damage over the next 5 or 10 seconds on him, they just get cleansed and youre back to square 0. Thats why instead, condi builds are even burstier than power builds. Whats more, theyre just incredibly binary. If you have enough cleanses, there is jack all they can do. If you dont, you lose and there is jack all

you

can do.

So instead, make them uncleansable, letting them actually be sustained damage alternatives. Lower the damage accross the board by a lot (obviously). And most importantly, change how condis are applied. Right now, a lot of condi bursts are problems because not only do you take a metric kitten ton of damage in a single tick, you couldnt even avoid those condis even if you had perfect reactions, because most condi builds fall into one of 3 categories. Pulsing fields covering the point you kinda need to stand on to win the gamemode. Instant cast skills that you cant avoid. And on-X effects that dont get consumed, that would require you to have 100% evade/block uptime to not get hit by (which is obviously not doable).

Eh. I would rather anet review and rework things on a class by class basis. You have things like firebrand where they have powerful aoe denial skills they can stand in that contribute to their sustain combined with relatively easily accessible projectile denial. In this case, it isnt so much the condis I take issue with so much as the mechanical aspects of how some parts of the class work.

And on the other hand, you have stuff like fire weaver, which was good in 5v5 because it revolved around node control and fire weaver can turn into a 'get off the point or perish, sucker' fire vortex, but the setup suffers in deathmatch because it actually kind of sucks at sticking to a target. Plus like...map design and stuff.

And then theres thief, which...yeah. So point is condi has different troublesome impacts depending on class and situation.

That is not to say condi on it's own does not have issues (Weakness and Resistance are still absolutely kitten stupid, and I could definitely go for more of a ramp-up time), but I don't think it's a good idea to fling out a condi rework when the issue is so...attached to and a result of a lot of other things as well. Instant cast skills that apply condis arent a condi issue, it's a problem with the skill being instant cast, etc etc.

Right, but the actual different skill types would be evaluated on a case by case basis at the last step. But

all

condi has the problem of being binary and bursty instead of sustained damage. It not being cleansable is a neccessary first step if we want to fix that.

Has anyone done the math on power vs condi 'burst' in x/y/z timeframe? What's the difference between condis being bursty and not bursty, what would make it sustained damage? I've never really seen much on the forums beyond 'I stood next to a fire weaver during their burst phase and did nothing so I ended up dead'.

The problem for exact math is too many variables. Damage reduction that primarily targets power, cleanses (in particular auto-cleanses) with some amount of RNG, you get the drill. As for what would make it sustained damage, simple. Lets start with an example like, hm. Death Blossom. Death Blossom applies 10 seconds of bleed with each hit, up to 3 per Blossom. Prior to the (arguably random) nerf recently, you could chain 4 or 5 death blossoms and have 12-15 stacks of bleeding ticking upwards of 10 seconds (bleed duration is a thing). Hypothetically this is an

absurd

amount of damage it would do. Even more with the poison from Deadly Ambition. But it will barely do a fraction of this damage. Because they just get all cleansed. As a result, the damage is tuned to be extremely high even with a lot fewer ticks. The full 10+ seconds would be ridiculous overkill, killing a target 6+ times over.

Now, lets assume you couldnt cleanse it. Now you could

drastically

reduce the damage, knowing that the full 10 seconds will happen. It will still kill, just not as fast, in exchange for having more sustained damage. Thats the point of condi, and this way we can achieve it.

On another note, no - definitely not. Condis don't exist in a vacuum, and different skill types and such should be looked at

first

. I do not want to end up 'fixing' condi around other flaws already present. Making damaging condis is not necessary in the slightest - it's definitely an option, but imo only a last resort thing.

Making them uncleansable

is

neccessary, because no matter what you change otherwise, as long as they can be cleansed, they remain binary and bursty. That cant ever change otherwise. Its also suffocating build variety as

every

build has to have multiple cleanses available at all time (or they auto-lose to any condi build), and it makes classes with weaker condi clearing simply underperform consistently.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:It seems like condi is currently a little out of date, design wise. The shenanigans people are trying to pull to misportray condi ('it's just a bunch of sequential power bursts' lmao) aside - it seems like people want condi builds to be even

more

damage over time but don't want those same builds to have the survivability necessary for that to work.

Personally, I agree - nerf condi more, re-tune cleanses a little bit, AND give condi builds the survivability they need to actually make that playstyle work. I'm so tired of being forced to waste amulet space on power stats. But let's not pretend getting 5k burn ticks is anything other than utter failure on the part of the target.

I mean personally I would want condis reworked. Straight up cut condi removal removing damage condis, thats where a lot of the problems originate. The idea of condi as a sustained damage alternative to powers more bursty playstyle doesnt work when, once the enemy has some condis that will do a bunch of damage over the next 5 or 10 seconds on him, they just get cleansed and youre back to square 0. Thats why instead, condi builds are even burstier than power builds. Whats more, theyre just incredibly binary. If you have enough cleanses, there is jack all they can do. If you dont, you lose and there is jack all

you

can do.

So instead, make them uncleansable, letting them actually be sustained damage alternatives. Lower the damage accross the board by a lot (obviously). And most importantly, change how condis are applied. Right now, a lot of condi bursts are problems because not only do you take a metric kitten ton of damage in a single tick, you couldnt even avoid those condis even if you had perfect reactions, because most condi builds fall into one of 3 categories. Pulsing fields covering the point you kinda need to stand on to win the gamemode. Instant cast skills that you cant avoid. And on-X effects that dont get consumed, that would require you to have 100% evade/block uptime to not get hit by (which is obviously not doable).

Eh. I would rather anet review and rework things on a class by class basis. You have things like firebrand where they have powerful aoe denial skills they can stand in that contribute to their sustain combined with relatively easily accessible projectile denial. In this case, it isnt so much the condis I take issue with so much as the mechanical aspects of how some parts of the class work.

And on the other hand, you have stuff like fire weaver, which was good in 5v5 because it revolved around node control and fire weaver can turn into a 'get off the point or perish, sucker' fire vortex, but the setup suffers in deathmatch because it actually kind of sucks at sticking to a target. Plus like...map design and stuff.

And then theres thief, which...yeah. So point is condi has different troublesome impacts depending on class and situation.

That is not to say condi on it's own does not have issues (Weakness and Resistance are still absolutely kitten stupid, and I could definitely go for more of a ramp-up time), but I don't think it's a good idea to fling out a condi rework when the issue is so...attached to and a result of a lot of other things as well. Instant cast skills that apply condis arent a condi issue, it's a problem with the skill being instant cast, etc etc.

Right, but the actual different skill types would be evaluated on a case by case basis at the last step. But

all

condi has the problem of being binary and bursty instead of sustained damage. It not being cleansable is a neccessary first step if we want to fix that.

Has anyone done the math on power vs condi 'burst' in x/y/z timeframe? What's the difference between condis being bursty and not bursty, what would make it sustained damage? I've never really seen much on the forums beyond 'I stood next to a fire weaver during their burst phase and did nothing so I ended up dead'.

The problem for exact math is too many variables. Damage reduction that primarily targets power, cleanses (in particular auto-cleanses) with some amount of RNG, you get the drill. As for what would make it sustained damage, simple. Lets start with an example like, hm. Death Blossom. Death Blossom applies 10 seconds of bleed with each hit, up to 3 per Blossom. Prior to the (arguably random) nerf recently, you could chain 4 or 5 death blossoms and have 12-15 stacks of bleeding ticking upwards of 10 seconds (bleed duration is a thing). Hypothetically this is an

absurd

amount of damage it would do. Even more with the poison from Deadly Ambition. But it will barely do a fraction of this damage. Because they just get all cleansed. As a result, the damage is tuned to be extremely high even with a lot fewer ticks. The full 10+ seconds would be ridiculous overkill, killing a target 6+ times over.

Now, lets assume you couldnt cleanse it. Now you could

drastically

reduce the damage, knowing that the full 10 seconds will happen. It will still kill, just not as fast, in exchange for having more sustained damage. Thats the point of condi, and this way we can achieve it.

On another note, no - definitely not. Condis don't exist in a vacuum, and different skill types and such should be looked at

first

. I do not want to end up 'fixing' condi around other flaws already present. Making damaging condis is not necessary in the slightest - it's definitely an option, but imo only a last resort thing.

Making them uncleansable

is

neccessary, because no matter what you change otherwise, as long as they can be cleansed, they remain binary and bursty. That cant ever change otherwise. Its also suffocating build variety as

every

build has to have multiple cleanses available at all time (or they auto-lose to any condi build), and it makes classes with weaker condi clearing simply underperform consistently.

I don't disagree that condi could do with some shaving to make it more

consistant

. Random cleanses, condi application procs, etcetc make it very difficult to really tell what's going on, the overall impact, and the death recap isn't the most helpful thing in the world (especially the freaking on-crit traits to apply extra stacks, I HATE those). The UI in general could use some real tender loving care.

Clarification - by 'condi burst', do people/you just mean 'applying lots of condis at the same time'? Lots of stacks of burn or something? Or is it 'condi burst' in the sense of the amount of damage crammed into a short a period of time as possible. This is part of what I was trying to get at earlier - if there are too many different variables involved to the point where it's a struggle to try and even define what's going on as a basis to work off of when saying 'x is too bursty' etc, then it would be better to adjust those first, right?Because, if the former - then definitely, yes, I agree condi has way too many different methods of condi application it can layer together. That said, if the latter - I vehemently disagree that condi performs any kind of large burst of damage squeezed into a small a time frame as possible that needs changing.

I mean, its both. You get hit with a bunch of stacks of 3 or 4 different condis and take 20k damage in 2 or 3 seconds. They kinda have to, thanks to Cleanses. Thats the issue. If you dont cleanse after being hit by condi burst, you just die.

I do think the former (I believe you described this as on-x effects that dont' get consumed, and the pulsing fields) are a big issue due to how they cut down on the value of defending against them - if I dodge a FB's axe 2 1st hit, I've...avoided the daze and maybe a few condis, but I'm probably still inside the field, so I'm not getting as much value out of my dodge/whatever I used to mitigate it. And even if I blind the first strike of the axe 2 symbol, a big chunk of the attack's value still goes through regardless.

Yeah, but that too is kinda the result of cleanses. If you could both avoid condi as easily as power damage, but also just cleanse it if you managed to get hit, you get underpowered conditions. It all originates from that one thing.

I'll get part of this out of the way and just say I will freely admit it is quite possibly my own personal preference that I enjoy the managing cleanses vs my opponent's condi application and/or managing my condi application vs my opponent's cleanses. That's an interesting depth to attrition-type gameplay I would be kinda sad to see die. Cover condis in 1v1, and managing them in group play, is also something I find quite fun. I don't think your idea is a flat out miss, either - it def wouldn't be the end of the world of my fun in the game if it was implemented. shrug Not a necessary thing - but totally workable.

The problem is that it sounds interesting, but it just makes the whole thing rather binary. The fight devolves into just this kind of management, with the regular aspects of carefully timing defense and offense being neglected. Or as I like to call it, spreadsheet showdowns.

[Baine.9650]

I think a lot of people play condi, and it's easier to play as well, because of high ping.

I have never played Guild Wars 2 lower than 220 ping. I still PvP, because the rewards are incredibly attractive. However, if I play a power burst, the build is very ping-dependent as I actually need to land all of my skills to deal damage.

However, with condis, I just need to roughly land the field in the right place, it's such a HUGE margin for error. It's so much easier to play on 200-300 plus ping. In GW2, a lot of martial classes have to have their projectiles/strikes "hit", which is why ping matters so much to power builds. Guild Wars 2 server side has to recognise you're hitting the enemy before you get a damage tick, and if your client is wayyyy behind the server sync you're basically screwed when it comes to micro-movements. I have American friends who play on consistently 150-180 ping and that's already close to impossible to play power burst accurately beyond gold against decent players and I suspect much of the fault is also due to ANet's own netcode when it comes to dealing with different ping.

TL;DR - condis much easier to play than burst. Power Burst - most builds require you to lack condi removal in order to reliably land your burst combo. Condis v.s. condis eventually due to ease of play, thanks to internet issues.

[NuhDah.9812]

I don't mind condi burst existing in the game and lets say 5k condi overload is ok. The way I see it though, if you can overload someone with a 5k condi burst it should only tick for a maximum of 1-2 ticks and never sustainable more than that even if you invest tones into expertise, there is no reason condi burst should be anything else than burst and should not be sustainable over time by a single player. That way it would be fair to compare it to power burst.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:The change was made because many CC skills were critting for upwards of 10k. Conditions are damage over time, the don't just instantly take half your HP (or all of it for some classes like Ele) and then CC you so you can be finished off easily.

It had nothing to do with "damage", but that it was being used for instawin fights, like the plague that Rampage was. On the other hand what you talked about has plenty of counters, like Stunbreak, condi cleanse, etc. including team support. While just dying without any chance to fight back had no counters, because you hit your Stunbreak and then what, the next hit kills you anyway?

It created a toxic system where people had to rely on powerful, passive traits to survive.

Then just change the power multiplier without removing damage altogether lmao, it's like there's some kind of middle ground between "Prime light beam can kamehameha you out of this plane of existence" and "All crowd control deal 10 damage". You don't like rampage boulter hitting for 8k? Maybe make it hit for 3.k

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:The change was made because many CC skills were critting for upwards of 10k. Conditions are damage over time, the don't just instantly take half your HP (or all of it for some classes like Ele) and then CC you so you can be finished off easily.

It had nothing to do with "damage", but that it was being used for instawin fights, like the plague that Rampage was. On the other hand what you talked about has plenty of counters, like Stunbreak, condi cleanse, etc. including team support. While just dying without any chance to fight back had no counters, because you hit your Stunbreak and then what, the next hit kills you anyway?

It created a toxic system where people had to rely on powerful, passive traits to survive.

Then just change the power multiplier without removing damage altogether lmao, it's like there's some kind of middle ground between "Prime light beam can kamehameha you out of this plane of existence" and "All crowd control deal 10 damage". You don't like rampage boulter hitting for 8k? Maybe make it hit for 3.k

You could have halved the damage on all CC skills and the problem largely would have been the same. Plus how do you decide how much is "enough"?

Also it's not just a case of how much damage should a CC skill do. Sometimes its should this skill CC or damage at all. Prime Light Beam and Executioners Scythe are good examples.

You have to review every skill individually, see what it does, how it fits, what you want it to be etc etc.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:The change was made because many CC skills were critting for upwards of 10k. Conditions are damage over time, the don't just instantly take half your HP (or all of it for some classes like Ele) and then CC you so you can be finished off easily.

It had nothing to do with "damage", but that it was being used for instawin fights, like the plague that Rampage was. On the other hand what you talked about has plenty of counters, like Stunbreak, condi cleanse, etc. including team support. While just dying without any chance to fight back had no counters, because you hit your Stunbreak and then what, the next hit kills you anyway?

It created a toxic system where people had to rely on powerful, passive traits to survive.

Burn guard has a problem with the statement "conditions...don't just instantly take half your HP".

[artharon.9276]

they should have give everyone CC immunity after getting CC'd so it would stop the spam. but instead they made many cc skills useless and warrior's hammer tuned down to chopstick. most iconic weapon of a class. speaking of condis? they were always avoidable, but I understand what you mean here. just dont ask anet to make the game boring like their warrior class.

[Zephoid.4263]

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:

Burn guard has a problem with the statement "conditions...don't just instantly take half your HP".

Look at where burn guard generates burning. Only Zealot's flame does good burning stacks outside of f1. In order for burn guards to stack burning, they have to hit you with TONS of damage instances. Most are symbols and multi-hit attacks, but its not like their condi 'bomb' is all that fast. To generate 5k burning per tick you need like 15 stacks, which requires 45 hits via F1. If you are getting hit 45 times, that isn't a 'bomb'. That the condi is dealing the damage not the 45 hits is just semantics.

Thats what ppl don't get about condis. They come from hits. You got hit by the condi ability, much the same as getting hit with that big power hit. Knowing which big condi hit to dodge is just as important as knowing when that arc divider is coming. Those 'bombs' are infinately slower than old shatter mes 20k bursts, 18k DJ, 15k arc, ect. At a mediocre level of skill, condi is balanced with power. At high level, power still dominates. Look at the builds that are winning tourneys. Most are power. Those burn guards, condi wars, and condi mesmers don't exist. Only condi rev is really competitive at higher level, but that isn't even because of the condis it puts out, rather its defensive abilties.

[otto.5684]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:If you lowered burn damage per stack, you'd only punish weaker condi builds that aren't overperforming. Just reduce the amount of stacks from certain skills that apply them too fast.

Or make improvements to those other underperforming condi builds that also dont promote the same gbage playstyle the current OP condi builds do.

I think this is impossible with the current design of the game. Even a deep dive level like the Feb patch would not fix this. There needs to be a complete redesign of condi damage, stats and application. This is a fundamental design, that you cannot change, even on an expansion level.

The issues happen when some classes can dish an alphabet of condis, over and over and over. Mirage and some necro builds were the epitome of this problem in the past. FB in the recent past. As you are not applying significant amount of various condis at the same time, things are okayish. Even high stacks can be okay. 10+ stacks of fire sure hurt, but they are not applied in one or even 2 skills. Same with power. "Theoretically," most power builds can kill the enemy target in under 5 secs (even in its current abysmal state). But that does not happen for the same reason you do not apply 10 stacks of one condi instantly. You are not fighting AI..

[Terrorhuz.4695]

@"Sigmoid.7082" said:You could have halved the damage on all CC skills and the problem largely would have been the same. Plus how do you decide how much is "enough"?What kind of question is that? They decide how much is "enough" for literally every skill in game

Also it's not just a case of how much damage should a CC skill do. Sometimes its should this skill CC or damage at all. Prime Light Beam and Executioners Scythe are good examples.What's the problem with PLB? It takes a while to charge, it has a relatively long cooldown, if it hits for 3-4k I don't have a problem with that. Not more than that because it's unblockable tbh

You have to review every skill individually, see what it does, how it fits, what you want it to be etc etc.Which is kind of what you do when you make balance patches for an RPG.

[Xentera.4560]

Because no class should be able to cc u, and then insta kill u from 100-0 in one spike before u even break stun. And that was happening with some builds.

[anjo.6143]

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@anjo.6143 said:Conditions are stupid at moment. Too high, too long, too accessible. It rewards a safe/unskillful game play WAY more than a risk style gameplay. Condi burst are taking more dmg than power bursts on certain classes.

Do you use condition cleanse ? It destroy all the duration of conditions.

Yeah, but you can apply much more condis that a person can cleanse

[lare.5129]

@"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:So few months ago Arenanet decided to change PvP with big patch and back then they made all crowd control spells dealing almost 0 physical damage.It not true. Power still do incredibly dig damage in good hand. The skilled players still burst per few seconds. Can I repeat it myself ? no. Make rule once per day go tournament - for dayli, get 5 gold, and see how others play. It will extend your vision.

What devs forgot to do is to reduce condition damage on spells that does crowd control but also spells that comes as synergy.Don't think what they forgot it. I don't think that this is mistake. Think that condi cool ? play condi. Be cool.

This also includes condi thieves, it press steal for daze, apply all condis and move out with pistol-dagger 3. So why would spell have daze but also confusion, posion, weakness etc? Also there you guys noticed problem with thief shortbow 4 "choking gas", guess what was problem ....posion and daze in same spell,oh. So make this biuld and try do same. I was try. No luck. Bliud not help.

It is very good time for Arenanet to think about this. I felt pvp was good after such changes but i noticed some problems it has at the moment.this is not problem, is some class stronger. This is part of fun.

pvp should be condi style. I think they choose proper direction. But condi is not so OP as should. They should, as for me, more boost condi.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:Good example is revenant's axe 5, it still does damage.

The knowledge of average forum warrior user here who also, by a coincidence, happens to scream the most about x class nerfs.

[Srym.5410]

Sounds to me like how Power, Precision, Ferocity builds do okay-decent damage and are super squishy, where as Condition is the only real stat you need so you can either build more into tankiness with Vit or Toughness, or hell even get Healing on some builds while still doing pretty high Condi damage. whats worse is in PvP pretty much every Amulet still has Power, so outside of crit and ferocity you are still hitting for an okay amount per hit along with the high Condi damage ticks and duration, I'm aware of cleansing vs straight up power but sometimes it feels a little too easy to apply extra conditions after it not to mention the duration of some... Necromancer Scepter 3 with a 20s Bleed for instance and then you have Rune of the Krait giving you free 8s of Bleeding, Torment and even Poison on Elite skill use. personally I'd like a secondary stat for Condition to be more valuable as Expertise only really increased the duration and IMO duration can be 1 of the nuisances of Conditions which makes it unfun, almost like getting a crit DoT hit or even "Reduces duration but damage ticks faster" kind've stat but you're super squishy while using it, kind've a trade-off like Berserk builds have as I don't think a build with high DoT damage should also have a huge amounts of sustain, it really needs to be 1 or the other.

[Burnfall.9573]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Zero surprise most vets are gone and pops dwindled to nothing lol

+1

(Anet never cared about the players experiences, it was all about making profits. Making profits sales was the priority and will always be the priority)

The price of treating players as profit margin tools accomodies and as objects to play with by giving false hope will always reap severe consequences in the. the long run with no turning back

Good day