Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand

[Vihar.5780]

@jpsssss.7530 said:Simple solution to stealth: Make Stealth a Boon. The good thieves still get to abuse stealth, and the bad ones walk into sadboi circles and die. On top of that it can be modified to force people to build into perma stealth, instead of inherently having it. It'd give better counterplay options while making it easier to balance. I see it as an absolute win!

This is a good idea, too.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

@AikijinX.6258 said:Too much X- People complain

It's almost like if there's too much of everything, there's a problem.

[Jeydra.4386]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:NPCs do not do a whole lot of damage. When I ran Glass Berserker for a bit (as a joke, really), even with Berserker mode on, unless the supervisor was still determined, Id be nowhere close to dying. But if, say, a Ranger decided to train Rapid Fire on me? Yeah Id be downed pretty much immediately. You absolutely can just him with CC and burst and down him. And sure, he has two stunbreaks. Each with a 50 second cooldown. Once you got both down, you won. He has to run, and wont be able to reengage for another half minute. And yes, if he is just wasting his own time, he has given up and run away.

If you can put them in combat they port out and break combat. The trick is that they stealth while youre in no range to hit them.

Let me let you in on a little secret. Trolling multiple players? Only works against really bad players. Against good players, the thief just cuts his losses and runs. Because if he doesnt, he dies. Simple as that. So no ,stealth doesnt need to be nerfed at all (And in-combat stealth, if anything, needs to be buffed).

I can't change builds or classes if I'm already in combat, so "you can absolutely just CC him and burst" does not work.

If your class can not CC, or burst, then the problem is your build. If you cant do either of those, you wont be able to kill

anyone

.

For trolling keeps: how it works doesn't matter, the point is that it works and is extraordinarily hard to counterplay.

And its an easy solution. Max 6 seconds total duration in stealth. Next.

As for not dying vs multiple players: or maybe they have builds that are countered by what the Thief has equipped. You could try it estimating it: how many good Condi Mirages does it take to kill a good thief?

If the thief is stupid enough to try and stealth up mid-combat, 1. If he runs away, youre not killing him.

By the way: if you can name a build that can kill - not just avoid dying to, but outright kill, preferably even when they're trying to run away - Thieves 1v1 in WvW, please tell me what it is. I'll go out of my way to gear it and learn it.

Unless youre on flat ground, no one can catch up to a thief when theyre running away. Thats the one thing theyre good at. So you wont kill them there. On the other hand, kill them if they

dont

run away? Every build. DH, Firebrand, core guardian, Warrior, Berserker, Spellbreaker, Renegade, Herald, Core Revenant, other thieves (duh), Ranger, Druid, Soulbeast, Engineer, Holo, Scrapper, etc. etc..

@"kash.9213" said:Kind of sounds like they're blinding through those npcs and probably why it looked like tanking. I don't know anything about your build or theirs or what the combat tab looked like though. Everything scares me so I might have hammered him from range instead since he looks like someone who knows they'll get jumped and I'll feel things out a bit while also panning camera a bit to look around. Get them to jump you instead and build thorny and have some reach for when they nope out and bonus if it punishes whatever they'll use next. Some people are just really good and alert though, I got shook by a core s/d thief who budgeted their Initiative really well last weekend and all I could do was look at my combat tab to see if I could adjust and waddle back out onto the map.

"Get them to jump you" is part of the problem, they are only going to jump you if they think they can win, so even if you down them the entire scenario can only arise if they made a mistake (i.e. they thought they can win when they can't). Otherwise they get to grief you forever, since you will never kill them.

Which means if they dont think they can win (i.e. if youre not a bad player), theyre not going to jump you. That means they wont "grief" you either. They will just run away and look for bad players elsewhere.

Again, don't say "the problem is your build" because once you are in combat you cannot switch. For many classes, you actually have to disengage, equip a revealed skill, and then go back hoping the Thief is still there.

The problem is that your build is evidently not good enough to face

anything

. Thief is the least of your worry.

Condi Mirage vs. thief: have you actually tried this? The Thief skill that grants all boons is effectively unbeatable. They have Resistance when they're not stealthed, tons of target breaks, ports, etc, maybe even remove conditions on dodging. Equal skill they cannot die 1v1 (heck I'd venture that even with a big skill disadvantage, they cannot die 1v1, because they will disengage before they actually die).

If he is stupid enough to stealth up, that skill wont save him. You CC him and kill him. Cant use Ecto while CCd, after all. He has no target breaks

at all

. Thats a Mesmer thing, not a thief thing. Even Stealth doesnt break targets immediately. And the condi clear on dodge, besides not being used because its not very good, fails to clear a burst. Youre right that the thief wont die 1v1 because he will run away. But if the thief is stupid enough to not run, and if he is even more stupid and tries to stealth up in the middle of the fight, then he will absolutely die.

"Unless youre on flat ground, no one can catch up to a thief when theyre running away." - which is a BIG part of the problem. You have a class that cannot be killed unless they take risks. Literally NOBODY can kill a Thief if they don't want to be killed. Hell, several players might still not be enough to kill a Thief if they don't want to be killed. Which means they can do things like tap Keeps forever, and they don't even need to be in the Keep to do it. Just an hour or so ago we were defending our Hills on an Alpine borderland. We killed most of the invaders, sans one Deadeye. We had six people trying to kill him. Didn't manage. He stealthed and disengaged against SIX players, in spite of being surrounded on a cliff. No other class can do this. Thankfully he didn't stick around trolling the Keep, because otherwise we might've wound up pulling our hair out.

First, note how I said "unless youre on flat ground". Yeah turns out on flat ground, there is one class that can catch up to thief, and outruns literally everyone. If they dont want to be killed, they will also never be killed. Actually, there are

2

classes. Ranger, and Warrior. The difference is, Ranger and Warrior can kill enemies. Thief cannot. They can also keep a keep tapped. And again, that is easily solved. 6 second max total duration on stealth.

As for "they won't grief you they will run away and look for bad players elsewhere" - how do you know they won't? Because I've certainly encountered Thieves who will. They can't kill you, but they keep you in combat. Like, say I get to a Camp which the Thief is trying to flip. I attack him with enough damage that any other class will die, but it's a Thief, he stealths and disengages. Then he hits me a bit, stealths again, hits a bit, I'm clearly not going to die especially with NPCs, but he stays nearby. Now what? No class can actually kill him. I could leave, but then he'll flip the camp (and I can't even leave if he doesn't want me to). What CAN I do? Suggest something.

Because they cant keep you in combat. Lets fix your chain of events. "Like, say I get to a Camp which the Thief is trying to flip. I attack him with enough damage that any other class will die, but it's a Thief, he

stealths and disengages

makes the stupid mistake of trying to stealth up. You immediately kill him as a result of that mistake. The story ends here.". Now lets assume the thief wasnt bad, and instead did the correct thing. He switches to shortbow, and uses shortbow 5 to disengage. Now, he is safe, but he wont be able to keep you in combat. If you try to run and he chases, he dies, because his initiative is depleted.

Now you are right, if you run he might just flip the camp. So his presence can force you to stay there. But here is the funny thing: I can do the exact same thing with Engineer. All I have to do is sit on a mount, and wait. You wont be able to kill me. The mount ensures that. And if you run, Ill flip the camp. What can you do? Not a whole lot, but thats WvW for you.

tl; dr: Thieves are silly and need to be nerfed into oblivion.

Yeah except they arent and they dont. The only thing that needs to change is for stealths total duration to be capped (I suggest 6 seconds). After that, thief is arguably just weak, and we could talk about increasing their damage a bit.

I'm comfortable fighting any class, including Thief, except the Thieves that exist to grief people. So I do not agree with your claim that I am not ready to face anyone.

I don't think you've played condi Mirage vs. Thief before. You CC him and kill him - with what, Diversion? That's not available immediately because it takes clone generation, otherwise it's melee range, and it's not even a real CC since it only dazes. Plus Consume Plasma is not an easy skill to interrupt.

Ranger and Warrior might be able to keep up with Thief if they're running in the same direction. Problem is that's never the case, because they will stealth, and then run in the opposite direction you do. "The Thief never dies unless they make a mistake or unless they are taking risks." Agree? If so then explain why this would not be a problem?

You can't force me to stay in the camp as an Engineer because I will go out there and kill you. You can't mount up, because you are in combat. If you aren't in combat then neither am I, in which case I can also mount up and dismount you. Thief is unique because they cannot be killed.

One more thing. If you are challenged to make a build with the explicit aim of trolling the other player/team, which class would you use? Is it Thief?

I don't have anything more to say.

@kash relying on the other guy making a mistake is never a reliable strategy. Sure it looks great when it works, but if it doesn't then the joke's on you.

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Question; how often do you kill/survive vs a thief that jumps you when roaming? Score it x out of 10. Don't count any losses when you're on group/zerg builds, because if you're expecting to win 1v1 vs a roamer on a zerg build you are no better than the players bringing rangers and thieves to a zerg. Build templates and mounts are a thing, so there's really no excuse for getting caught out 1v1 on a zerg build. So what kind of number are we thinking?

If you are thinking 8 or 9 times out of 10, there is no problem because you are obviously countering them most of the time, and even if they run they aren't getting the kill. No changes needed.

If you are thinking 4, 5 or 6 times out of 10, again, the matchup is evidently pretty balanced, neither you nor the thief has a clear advantage assuming equal skill. No changes needed.

Only if you are thinking 1 or 2 times out of 10 is there a potential problem, which leads to a second question; are you playing a class/build that is weak to thief, did you make a mistake that the thief capitalised on, or are you losing because you don't know how to counter them? If you're thinking you need to go OOC to equip a reveal skill or change skills so you're more/less tanky, see paragraph 1, you're not on the right build. If you're playing a zerker build, you will get killed as fast as you kill, you agree to that risk when you decide to build that way. If you're playing a reaper, DPS ele or glassy mesmer, nothing wrong there, every class has counters and thief is yours (although if you play well you can still win). If you're playing anything else, you need to consider working on your build or your playstyle, because every other 1v1/roaming class/build can delete a thief given you know the counters your class has and you don't make a mistake.

Killing the Thief is fairly rare - 2/10 maybe. Surviving the Thief is much more common - 8/10 maybe.

Also I don't see why you think "you need to OOC to equip a reveal skill" means you have the wrong build. You can't guarantee you will be fighting a Thief when you're out roaming, and most reveal skills are bad or unnecessary against non-stealth classes.

Again if you have a build that can kill - not just survive, but outright kill, preferably also when they are trying to run away - a Thief, please say what it is. Give all traits, equipment, etc. I want to try it myself.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:NPCs do not do a whole lot of damage. When I ran Glass Berserker for a bit (as a joke, really), even with Berserker mode on, unless the supervisor was still determined, Id be nowhere close to dying. But if, say, a Ranger decided to train Rapid Fire on me? Yeah Id be downed pretty much immediately. You absolutely can just him with CC and burst and down him. And sure, he has two stunbreaks. Each with a 50 second cooldown. Once you got both down, you won. He has to run, and wont be able to reengage for another half minute. And yes, if he is just wasting his own time, he has given up and run away.

If you can put them in combat they port out and break combat. The trick is that they stealth while youre in no range to hit them.

Let me let you in on a little secret. Trolling multiple players? Only works against really bad players. Against good players, the thief just cuts his losses and runs. Because if he doesnt, he dies. Simple as that. So no ,stealth doesnt need to be nerfed at all (And in-combat stealth, if anything, needs to be buffed).

I can't change builds or classes if I'm already in combat, so "you can absolutely just CC him and burst" does not work.

If your class can not CC, or burst, then the problem is your build. If you cant do either of those, you wont be able to kill

anyone

.

For trolling keeps: how it works doesn't matter, the point is that it works and is extraordinarily hard to counterplay.

And its an easy solution. Max 6 seconds total duration in stealth. Next.

As for not dying vs multiple players: or maybe they have builds that are countered by what the Thief has equipped. You could try it estimating it: how many good Condi Mirages does it take to kill a good thief?

If the thief is stupid enough to try and stealth up mid-combat, 1. If he runs away, youre not killing him.

By the way: if you can name a build that can kill - not just avoid dying to, but outright kill, preferably even when they're trying to run away - Thieves 1v1 in WvW, please tell me what it is. I'll go out of my way to gear it and learn it.

Unless youre on flat ground, no one can catch up to a thief when theyre running away. Thats the one thing theyre good at. So you wont kill them there. On the other hand, kill them if they

dont

run away? Every build. DH, Firebrand, core guardian, Warrior, Berserker, Spellbreaker, Renegade, Herald, Core Revenant, other thieves (duh), Ranger, Druid, Soulbeast, Engineer, Holo, Scrapper, etc. etc..

@"kash.9213" said:Kind of sounds like they're blinding through those npcs and probably why it looked like tanking. I don't know anything about your build or theirs or what the combat tab looked like though. Everything scares me so I might have hammered him from range instead since he looks like someone who knows they'll get jumped and I'll feel things out a bit while also panning camera a bit to look around. Get them to jump you instead and build thorny and have some reach for when they nope out and bonus if it punishes whatever they'll use next. Some people are just really good and alert though, I got shook by a core s/d thief who budgeted their Initiative really well last weekend and all I could do was look at my combat tab to see if I could adjust and waddle back out onto the map.

"Get them to jump you" is part of the problem, they are only going to jump you if they think they can win, so even if you down them the entire scenario can only arise if they made a mistake (i.e. they thought they can win when they can't). Otherwise they get to grief you forever, since you will never kill them.

Which means if they dont think they can win (i.e. if youre not a bad player), theyre not going to jump you. That means they wont "grief" you either. They will just run away and look for bad players elsewhere.

Again, don't say "the problem is your build" because once you are in combat you cannot switch. For many classes, you actually have to disengage, equip a revealed skill, and then go back hoping the Thief is still there.

The problem is that your build is evidently not good enough to face

anything

. Thief is the least of your worry.

Condi Mirage vs. thief: have you actually tried this? The Thief skill that grants all boons is effectively unbeatable. They have Resistance when they're not stealthed, tons of target breaks, ports, etc, maybe even remove conditions on dodging. Equal skill they cannot die 1v1 (heck I'd venture that even with a big skill disadvantage, they cannot die 1v1, because they will disengage before they actually die).

If he is stupid enough to stealth up, that skill wont save him. You CC him and kill him. Cant use Ecto while CCd, after all. He has no target breaks

at all

. Thats a Mesmer thing, not a thief thing. Even Stealth doesnt break targets immediately. And the condi clear on dodge, besides not being used because its not very good, fails to clear a burst. Youre right that the thief wont die 1v1 because he will run away. But if the thief is stupid enough to not run, and if he is even more stupid and tries to stealth up in the middle of the fight, then he will absolutely die.

"Unless youre on flat ground, no one can catch up to a thief when theyre running away." - which is a BIG part of the problem. You have a class that cannot be killed unless they take risks. Literally NOBODY can kill a Thief if they don't want to be killed. Hell, several players might still not be enough to kill a Thief if they don't want to be killed. Which means they can do things like tap Keeps forever, and they don't even need to be in the Keep to do it. Just an hour or so ago we were defending our Hills on an Alpine borderland. We killed most of the invaders, sans one Deadeye. We had six people trying to kill him. Didn't manage. He stealthed and disengaged against SIX players, in spite of being surrounded on a cliff. No other class can do this. Thankfully he didn't stick around trolling the Keep, because otherwise we might've wound up pulling our hair out.

First, note how I said "unless youre on flat ground". Yeah turns out on flat ground, there is one class that can catch up to thief, and outruns literally everyone. If they dont want to be killed, they will also never be killed. Actually, there are

2

classes. Ranger, and Warrior. The difference is, Ranger and Warrior can kill enemies. Thief cannot. They can also keep a keep tapped. And again, that is easily solved. 6 second max total duration on stealth.

As for "they won't grief you they will run away and look for bad players elsewhere" - how do you know they won't? Because I've certainly encountered Thieves who will. They can't kill you, but they keep you in combat. Like, say I get to a Camp which the Thief is trying to flip. I attack him with enough damage that any other class will die, but it's a Thief, he stealths and disengages. Then he hits me a bit, stealths again, hits a bit, I'm clearly not going to die especially with NPCs, but he stays nearby. Now what? No class can actually kill him. I could leave, but then he'll flip the camp (and I can't even leave if he doesn't want me to). What CAN I do? Suggest something.

Because they cant keep you in combat. Lets fix your chain of events. "Like, say I get to a Camp which the Thief is trying to flip. I attack him with enough damage that any other class will die, but it's a Thief, he

stealths and disengages

makes the stupid mistake of trying to stealth up. You immediately kill him as a result of that mistake. The story ends here.". Now lets assume the thief wasnt bad, and instead did the correct thing. He switches to shortbow, and uses shortbow 5 to disengage. Now, he is safe, but he wont be able to keep you in combat. If you try to run and he chases, he dies, because his initiative is depleted.

Now you are right, if you run he might just flip the camp. So his presence can force you to stay there. But here is the funny thing: I can do the exact same thing with Engineer. All I have to do is sit on a mount, and wait. You wont be able to kill me. The mount ensures that. And if you run, Ill flip the camp. What can you do? Not a whole lot, but thats WvW for you.

tl; dr: Thieves are silly and need to be nerfed into oblivion.

Yeah except they arent and they dont. The only thing that needs to change is for stealths total duration to be capped (I suggest 6 seconds). After that, thief is arguably just weak, and we could talk about increasing their damage a bit.

I'm comfortable fighting any class, including Thief, except the Thieves that exist to grief people. So I do not agree with your claim that I am not ready to face anyone.

Whether you agree or dont, I cant say I particularly care. But if you cant deal with thieves, then you cant deal with anyone. Or its a skill issue.

I don't think you've played condi Mirage vs. Thief before. You CC him and kill him - with what, Diversion? That's not available immediately because it takes clone generation, otherwise it's melee range, and it's not even a real CC since it only dazes. Plus Consume Plasma is not an easy skill to interrupt.

Magic bullet? And no, Consume Plasma is a very easy skill to interrupt. Its a 1 second channel. Not a lot of skills that are easier to interrupt.

Ranger and Warrior might be able to keep up with Thief if they're running in the same direction. Problem is that's never the case, because they will stealth, and then run in the opposite direction you do. "The Thief never dies unless they make a mistake or unless they are taking risks." Agree? If so then explain why this would not be a problem?

Not keep up, outrun him. And that is absolutely the case. They wont stealth, unless they want to get smacked by my bullrush and die immediately. The actual answer why the thief will survive is the same one why anyone will. Mount. Mount up, and youre safe.

Because that is true for every class? No class dies unless theyre taking risks. Warrior can avoid dying even if it does. So if thief is a problem, warrior would be a bigger one. Yet I dont see you complaining about warrior.

You can't force me to stay in the camp as an Engineer because I will go out there and kill you. You can't mount up, because you are in combat. If you aren't in combat then neither am I, in which case I can also mount up and dismount you. Thief is unique because they cannot be killed.

I can. Im on a mount. You wont be able to kill me. And I will dodge your attempt at dismounting. So, same exact situation. Thief isnt unique at all. Oh and even if I was in combat as Engineer, breaking out of combat and mounting up is also trivial on engineer. Its not unique to thief, if anything theyre the worst ones, because they lack the kil threat.

One more thing. If you are challenged to make a build with the explicit aim of trolling the other player/team, which class would you use? Is it Thief?

Oh thats easy. Mesmer. Just a dumb Chronotank. If not Mesmer, max defense Warrior. Or max defense Firebrand.

@kash relying on the other guy making a mistake is never a reliable strategy. Sure it looks great when it works, but if it doesn't then the joke's on you.

Thats quite literally the thief strategy though. It is the most reliable you wil lget.

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Question; how often do you kill/survive vs a thief that jumps you when roaming? Score it x out of 10. Don't count any losses when you're on group/zerg builds, because if you're expecting to win 1v1 vs a roamer on a zerg build you are no better than the players bringing rangers and thieves to a zerg. Build templates and mounts are a thing, so there's really no excuse for getting caught out 1v1 on a zerg build. So what kind of number are we thinking?

If you are thinking 8 or 9 times out of 10, there is no problem because you are obviously countering them most of the time, and even if they run they aren't getting the kill. No changes needed.

If you are thinking 4, 5 or 6 times out of 10, again, the matchup is evidently pretty balanced, neither you nor the thief has a clear advantage assuming equal skill. No changes needed.

Only if you are thinking 1 or 2 times out of 10 is there a potential problem, which leads to a second question; are you playing a class/build that is weak to thief, did you make a mistake that the thief capitalised on, or are you losing because you don't know how to counter them? If you're thinking you need to go OOC to equip a reveal skill or change skills so you're more/less tanky, see paragraph 1, you're not on the right build. If you're playing a zerker build, you will get killed as fast as you kill, you agree to that risk when you decide to build that way. If you're playing a reaper, DPS ele or glassy mesmer, nothing wrong there, every class has counters and thief is yours (although if you play well you can still win). If you're playing anything else, you need to consider working on your build or your playstyle, because every other 1v1/roaming class/build can delete a thief given you know the counters your class has and you don't make a mistake.

Killing the Thief is fairly rare - 2/10 maybe. Surviving the Thief is much more common - 8/10 maybe.

Also I don't see why you think "you need to OOC to equip a reveal skill" means you have the wrong build. You can't guarantee you will be fighting a Thief when you're out roaming, and most reveal skills are bad or unnecessary against non-stealth classes.

You dont need reveal skills. Hell, theyre straight up a trap, as any time they would be useful, any alternative would be more useful (since you can just kill the thief when he is stupid enough to try and stealth up).

Again if you have a build that can kill - not just survive, but outright kill, preferably also when they are trying to run away - a Thief, please say what it is. Give all traits, equipment, etc. I want to try it myself.

Killing the thief if he isnt running away is easy. EVERY build can do it. Pick your favourite. If they are running away? Well, Warrior could perhaps, but with mounts, unlikely. But then again, the same is true for warrior or ranger. If they run, you wont kill them.

[Wyrdern.4092]

tbh in a group at least, the best strategy against a thief is just ignore it entirely ... 9/10 chance you are not going to kill them unless they mess up badly (even then most thieves will have a plan B skill that they can use) ... and just res whoever they down.

[Yasai.3549]

It's not a Stealth issue.It's a Thief issue with their Initiative system.

If Thief had actual weapon cooldowns, they wouldn't be able to pull off nearly half the nonsense they are doing now.

[Rakshasa.5493]

@Yasai.3549 said:It's not a Stealth issue.It's a Thief issue with their Initiative system.

If Thief had actual weapon cooldowns, they wouldn't be able to pull off nearly half the nonsense they are doing now.

So just swap CaD to a cool down then?I guess it would work..

Lastly when I see 'it's been broken for 8 years' I some how read I haven't learnt anything about builds when I roam, and animation prompts on screen...

Then I think wow my puppy was litter trained in 6 weeks but they haven't worked it out in 8 years of gaming...

[Yasai.3549]

@Rakshasa.5493 said:

So just swap CaD to a cool down then?I guess it would work..

Lastly when I see 'it's been broken for 8 years' I some how read I haven't learnt anything about builds when I roam, and animation prompts on screen...

Then I think wow my puppy was litter trained in 6 weeks but they haven't worked it out in 8 years of gaming...

CaD lol?

It's the Smoke Powder + Heartseeker combo which is the main source of stealth spam.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Yasai.3549 said:It's not a Stealth issue.It's a Thief issue with their Initiative system.

If Thief had actual weapon cooldowns, they wouldn't be able to pull off nearly half the nonsense they are doing now.

If thief had actual weapon cooldowns, it would be a different class. And you would need to redesign every single weapon and buff the hell out of many many skills. Too disruptive of a change.

[Yasai.3549]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

If Thief had actual weapon cooldowns, they wouldn't be able to pull off nearly half the nonsense they are doing now.

If thief had actual weapon cooldowns, it would be a different class. And you would need to redesign every single weapon and buff the hell out of many many skills. Too disruptive of a change.

And unfortunately, I agree.

Hence I said its a problem but I didn't say they should fix it.

But at the current stage we are in regarding game balance, the best anet can do is nerf the entire combo mechanic, pissing everyone off.

But what's game balance anyway.Eh. Idk. Something something fix the servers please.

[Shroud.2307]

I am amazed this is still a complaint in 2020.

Deadeye was a problem some time ago, it can still be frustrating but is a lot less so. Thief in general is fine otherwise and Stealth from it or any other source on any other profession is perfectly okay as it is.

Stealth was poorly designed from the beginning but it is what it is. You can't rebuild entire professions from the ground up this late in the games life, which is what you would need to do to redesign Stealth.

There are plenty of tells and ways to deal with high Stealth uptime builds. All it takes is experience. No one's denying that it isn't intuitive and some things can be difficult to avoid thanks to how Stealth functions, but it isn't "problematic" and it isn't the only thing that's frustrating to deal with.

If there's something you struggle against the best way to learn how to fight it is to play it and to practice against it. Put forth the effort to improve and you'll have less problems. If you don't want to put in the effort then you'll have to deal with knowing you'll be at a disadvantage when faced against it. You can't cry for ANet to nerf everything that hurts you.

Sincerely, someone who doesn't play Thief or Mesmer.

[Yasai.3549]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I am amazed this is still a complaint in 2020.

Deadeye was a problem some time ago, it can still be frustrating but is a lot less so. Thief in general is fine otherwise and Stealth from it or any other source on any other profession is perfectly okay as it is.

Stealth was poorly designed from the beginning but it is what it is. You can't rebuild entire professions from the ground up this late in the games life, which is what you would need to do to redesign Stealth.

Which is why people have been asking desperately for more reveals in the game.

As of now, only a few Professions has access to Reveal, and even fewer builds can squeeze that Reveal in without totally compromising other aspects of it (like sacrificing a trait choice or utility slot)

I've also proposed before that players have a handy Reveal tactic they carry with them which can be deployed whenever to Reveal around them at the hefty cost of all their remaining Supply.

[Shroud.2307]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I am amazed this is still a complaint in 2020.

Deadeye was a problem some time ago, it can still be frustrating but is a lot less so. Thief in general is fine otherwise and Stealth from it or any other source on any other profession is perfectly okay as it is.

Stealth was poorly designed from the beginning but it is what it is. You can't rebuild entire professions from the ground up this late in the games life, which is what you would need to do to redesign Stealth.

Which is why people have been asking desperately for more reveals in the game.

As of now, only a few Professions has access to Reveal, and even fewer builds can squeeze that Reveal in without totally compromising other aspects of it (like sacrificing a trait choice or utility slot)

I've also proposed before that players have a handy Reveal tactic they carry with them which can be deployed whenever to Reveal around them at the hefty cost of all their remaining Supply.

Most Reveals aren't worth the slot. If you're taking it you're often putting yourself at a greater disadvantage than you would by just learning how to fight it.

A clutch Reveal can be used skillfully if done at the right time, but generally it's better to bait, predict, and counter.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I am amazed this is still a complaint in 2020.

Deadeye was a problem some time ago, it can still be frustrating but is a lot less so. Thief in general is fine otherwise and Stealth from it or any other source on any other profession is perfectly okay as it is.

Stealth was poorly designed from the beginning but it is what it is. You can't rebuild entire professions from the ground up this late in the games life, which is what you would need to do to redesign Stealth.

Which is why people have been asking desperately for more reveals in the game.

As of now, only a few Professions has access to Reveal, and even fewer builds can squeeze that Reveal in without totally compromising other aspects of it (like sacrificing a trait choice or utility slot)

I've also proposed before that players have a handy Reveal tactic they carry with them which can be deployed whenever to Reveal around them at the hefty cost of all their remaining Supply.

Reveals are a trap. Theyre only good against in-combat stealth, aka stealth when you can see the enemy stealthing up. At that point, youre better off just killing them for being stupid enough to try and stealth up. The one issue stealth has is out of combat stealth, where an enemy hits you before youre even aware he exists. Though thats less bad nowadays, thanks to not even glass thieves being able to oneshot anyone.

[Hot Boy.7138]

I think thieves should always have stealth and high access to it. Mesmers imo shouldn't have stealth because we have clones. Having clones AND stealth is too strong. It should really just be one or the other. Engineers blasting fields for stealth been a thing since the game launched. It's annoying to fight against but I think it has a cool factor since engineers should be able to do a little of everything. Keyword: A little. Rangers blasting/leaping is a bit much for me. Trap runes that give you stealth when you put down a trap is just stupid and needs to go.

[frareanselm.1925]

If anet is unable to make his game unhackable then stealth should disappear until the hacking problesm is fixed. Because every cheater is using invisibility to hide fake teleports os superspeed.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lmao yeah let's remove stealth and delete thief or cause a need to rework a class from ground up because hackers are using stealth to hide their hacks smh. I've seen many hackers in wvw and pvp that didnt use stealth. I've seen a guard that sits mid and when he dies insta ports back onto mid node, I've seen wars and rangers teleporting all over the place in wvw. Bottom line is the hacker issue has zero to do with stealth, kinda seems like some players are trying to use the hackers as a pathetic excuse to remove stealth, not saying op is tho.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I think thieves should always have stealth and high access to it. Mesmers imo shouldn't have stealth because we have clones. Having clones AND stealth is too strong. It should really just be one or the other. Engineers blasting fields for stealth been a thing since the game launched. It's annoying to fight against but I think it has a cool factor since engineers should be able to do a little of everything. Keyword: A little. Rangers blasting/leaping is a bit much for me. Trap runes that give you stealth when you put down a trap is just stupid and needs to go.

Yes, replace every skill and trait that generates mesmer stealth with even more clone generation. Cause that won't break things.

Or maybe instead of stealth we can get more blocks and evades, that will surely make bad players stop calling to nerf the class even more.

Careful what you ask for.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I think after 8 yrs it's time for the playerbase to accept that for the most part thief is what it is and will remain so, this includes stealth and how it works, any major changes to either would require a lot of time and effort to compensate and balance, time and effort that isn't realistically going to happen, I draw ur attention to 300 sec traits still being place holders etc among other things.If u want thief and or stealth designed differently than it currently is I'd suggest aiming ur future threads on possible changes anet could make to either in gw3 if it were to ever come, that would be more realistic approach.That said I think thief and invisiblity is fine as is for the most part, maybe cap invisibility to 6 sec of which can be reapplied if thief chooses to use its global resource to do so.

[Caedmon.6798]

All of yall running around on condi tanks with sustain around you but when you do get killed by that Solo guy you start complaining. While its you running toxic shit in the first place. Also the main reason people solo roam on a stealth spec is because of all the tryhard ganks that otherwise happen. Also stop pretending all of yall are roaming solo,cus you aint.

[Caedmon.6798]

Bla bla double post bla.

[Aquamarine.3698]

unfortunately, a daredevil with shadow arts has all the avantages ;) (endless on demand stealth, massive dodges, plus thief basic teleports)

[urd.8306]

The NA meta must be backwards. The number of condi bunkers you see on EU is below 30% of the roamers. Maybe you should update your skill level on NA?

[Doug.4930]

@"diomache.9246" said:The NA meta must be backwards. The number of condi bunkers you see on EU is below 30% of the roamers. Maybe you should update your skill level on NA?

In my experience EU players see themselves as better players than those on NA. Which tbh is a running theme in every game I've ever played with EU/NA servers.

Perhaps EU roamers (I'm NA but from OCX so I don't really feel like I belong to either camp) don't want to "lower" themselves by playing condi. Different culture maybe? Not that I can understand how roamers still have ego's and pride in their skill at playing a game mode as neglected and poorly balanced as gw2 WvW.

As for NA the vast majority of roamers/small scale players are condi. Condi sustain is king right now. Power is still good for small fights, but not as good as condi bunkers. Perfect example is power herald and condi herald. One when played well is a viable and difficult fight that requires you to time dodges and skills well to overcome. The other when played well really shouldn't lose no matter how well you yourself play against it.

Sustain is king.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the

worst

possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is

already weak

. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.