Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the

worst

possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is

already weak

. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly underpowered. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

[Flying.6509]

Not just invisibility, immob spam has gotten out of hand too in certain builds.

[Shiyo.3578]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the

worst

possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is

already weak

. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly

underpowered

. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

The two best thieves in the world constantly complain about how broken and non-interactive stealth is right now.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Jeydra.4386 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the

worst

possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is

already weak

. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly

underpowered

. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

The two best thieves in the world constantly complain about how broken and non-interactive stealth is right now.

Im sure they do. And Im sure theyre referring to in-combat stealth, aka when a thief decides to stealth up in the middle of a fight, eats a bullrush to the face and dies for his troubles. And not out of combat stealth which is an issue, but easily fixed too.

[Junkpile.7439]

It's kind of funny how thief fight back better than most core specs even when he is revealed.

[T G.7496]

@AikijinX.6258 said:The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

Too much stealth- People complainToo much evade- People complainToo much damage- People complainToo much mobility- People complainToo many teleports- People complainToo much blind- People complainToo many spammable skills- People complainToo much access to poison- People complainToo much condition capability- People complainAbility to Teleport allies- People Complain

People need to chill.

Too much access to chill.

[AikijinX.6258]

@TwoGhosts.6790 said:

@AikijinX.6258 said:The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth

stolen

as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

Too much stealth- People complainToo much evade- People complainToo much damage- People complainToo much mobility- People complainToo many teleports- People complainToo much blind- People complainToo many spammable skills- People complainToo much access to poison- People complainToo much condition capability- People complainAbility to Teleport allies- People Complain

People need to chill.

Too much access to chill.

lol, facts tho

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Junkpile.7439 said:It's kind of funny how thief fight back better than most core specs even when he is revealed.

Best 1v1'r in the game, f...... decaps emiright.

[MasterDeere.3417]

@TwoGhosts.6790 said:

@AikijinX.6258 said:The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth

stolen

as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

Too much stealth- People complainToo much evade- People complainToo much damage- People complainToo much mobility- People complainToo many teleports- People complainToo much blind- People complainToo many spammable skills- People complainToo much access to poison- People complainToo much condition capability- People complainAbility to Teleport allies- People Complain

People need to chill.

Too much access to chill.

When I read that I see a reaper build with bleed and vulnerability on chill, with rune that adds chills to the shout, and shout everywhere + well that chill and blind + ring that fear since fear chill with reaper.

[AikijinX.6258]

@MasterDeere.3417 said:

@TwoGhosts.6790 said:

@AikijinX.6258 said:The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth

stolen

as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

Too much stealth- People complainToo much evade- People complainToo much damage- People complainToo much mobility- People complainToo many teleports- People complainToo much blind- People complainToo many spammable skills- People complainToo much access to poison- People complainToo much condition capability- People complainAbility to Teleport allies- People Complain

People need to chill.

Too much access to chill.

When I read that I see a reaper build with bleed and vulnerability on chill, with rune that adds chills to the shout, and shout everywhere + well that chill and blind + ring that fear since fear chill with reaper.

dude chill.

[MasterDeere.3417]

@AikijinX.6258 said:

@MasterDeere.3417 said:

@TwoGhosts.6790 said:

@AikijinX.6258 said:The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth

stolen

as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

Too much stealth- People complainToo much evade- People complainToo much damage- People complainToo much mobility- People complainToo many teleports- People complainToo much blind- People complainToo many spammable skills- People complainToo much access to poison- People complainToo much condition capability- People complainAbility to Teleport allies- People Complain

People need to chill.

Too much access to chill.

When I read that I see a reaper build with bleed and vulnerability on chill, with rune that adds chills to the shout, and shout everywhere + well that chill and blind + ring that fear since fear chill with reaper.

dude chill.

Indeed, that dude chill

[Caedmon.6798]

@Vihar.5780 said:

@jpsssss.7530 said:Simple solution to stealth: Make Stealth a Boon. The good thieves still get to abuse stealth, and the bad ones walk into sadboi circles and die. On top of that it can be modified to force people to build into perma stealth, instead of inherently having it. It'd give better counterplay options while making it easier to balance. I see it as an absolute win!

This is a good idea, too.

No it really isnt. You people should try to play a thief seriously yourselves before trying to make or agree to suggestions like this and realize its not as easy as you think. With all the boonrips available that thief would have no stealth ever.

Yet we have things like core necs with 50 life force bars being sustained by fb's and eles but that's A-OK.

I really think most complains about stealth comes from blobbers.

FYI Thieves are the ONLY class severely hurt by several mechanic in WvW. But do you care ? No you dont !

Theyre hurt by 2 different types of stealth traps that apply 30 seconds revealTheyre hurt by fighting in range of a sentry that adds 30 seconds reveal.Theyre hurt by Every tower radar with a massive range making them not fight in that area,Forever reveal.Running with a blob that tries a upgraded tower with radar? What are you even doing there,youre useless,go home because youl be revealed forever.On desert bl theres an entire area where youre revealed Forever,spanning from NW to NE.

Now for a second,have a thought about how you would feel if any of these mechanics would,instead of adding reveal. Making it so you cant use your blocks/aegis or your invulns. Would you like this ? Nope. Think about hitting a Fully upgraded tower with radar with your blob,and that radar would make it so all of you cant use your blocks/aegis or invulns,pretty lame right ? Thats how thieves already feel. Then add people Still complaining for you to be nerfed while all these added mechanics are ingame already.

We have ingame specs able to plant reveals on them,we have specs that can hard counter them aswell.

Stop,complaining. Learn,to play.

Another FYI i used to be a main warri with a massive hate against thief,saying how broken and easy to play they are. Untill i played it myself and realized its one of the most difficult classes to play well.

[Jeran.6850]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Vihar.5780 said:

@"jpsssss.7530" said:Simple solution to stealth: Make Stealth a Boon. The good thieves still get to abuse stealth, and the bad ones walk into sadboi circles and die. On top of that it can be modified to force people to build into perma stealth, instead of inherently having it. It'd give better counterplay options while making it easier to balance. I see it as an absolute win!

This is a good idea, too.

No it really isnt. You people should try to play a thief seriously yourselves before trying to make or agree to suggestions like this and realize its not as easy as you think. With all the boonrips available that thief would have no stealth ever.

Yet we have things like core necs with 50 life force bars being sustained by fb's and eles but that's A-OK.

I really think most complains about stealth comes from blobbers.

FYI Thieves are the ONLY class severely hurt by several mechanic in WvW. But do you care ? No you dont !

Theyre hurt by 2 different types of stealth traps that apply 30 seconds revealTheyre hurt by fighting in range of a sentry that adds 30 seconds reveal.Theyre hurt by Every tower radar with a massive range making them not fight in that area,Forever reveal.Running with a blob that tries a upgraded tower with radar? What are you even doing there,youre useless,go home because youl be revealed forever.On desert bl theres an entire area where youre revealed Forever,spanning from NW to NE.

Now for a second,have a thought about how you would feel if any of these mechanics would,instead of adding reveal. Making it so you cant use your blocks/aegis or your invulns. Would you like this ? Nope. Think about hitting a Fully upgraded tower with radar with your blob,and that radar would make it so all of you cant use your blocks/aegis or invulns,pretty lame right ? Thats how thieves already feel. Then add people Still complaining for you to be nerfed while all these added mechanics are ingame already.

We have ingame specs able to plant reveals on them,we have specs that can hard counter them aswell.

Stop,complaining. Learn,to play.

Another FYI i used to be a main warri with a massive hate against thief,saying how broken and easy to play they are. Untill i played it myself and realized its one of the most difficult classes to play well.

...wow. So lets see...the role of thief in pvp can not be fullfilled by any other class, no matter what build. Its the only class role which cant be replaced by anything, while for every other role, there are several classes, that are (almost) as good as the next one. Thiefs still complain.

In WvW, there is no doubt what class is king of roaming, since the start of the game. Its thief. But they complain. About other classes have stealth, to. Other classes have evade-frames, to. Other classes have high mobility, to (even when it requires them to take rune of speed for at least some mobility).

Thief players love to point out their low hp as a justification why a backstab (or what ever) SHOULD lead to 5k+ damage on a medium armor target with all defensive boons up on the opponent (while there is the initiative system still in play of course, instead of actual weapon skill cd`s), and how stealth is useless infight...yet you and i can see, that each and every actual usefull roaming build uses stealth to different degrees. Thief do. Ranger do. Mesmer do. And also Engineers.Aside of warrior (and their pretty stupid class mechanics available), there isnt a single "roamer" that doesnt take advantage out of having access to stealth somehow....

So, what again, makes thiefs so special, when it comes to how THEY are so heavily effected, by traps, and watchtowers, but no other "roaming" class?

Highest stealth access, highest mobility, very high evades frames, laughable easy to achive trait inbound high damage modifiers.... the ini system... the stupid shortbow 5 thing..

Yeah. Clearly, its not the thiefs that should learn to play in 2020.

[kash.9213]

@Jeran.6850 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Vihar.5780 said:

@"jpsssss.7530" said:Simple solution to stealth: Make Stealth a Boon. The good thieves still get to abuse stealth, and the bad ones walk into sadboi circles and die. On top of that it can be modified to force people to build into perma stealth, instead of inherently having it. It'd give better counterplay options while making it easier to balance. I see it as an absolute win!

This is a good idea, too.

No it really isnt. You people should try to play a thief seriously yourselves before trying to make or agree to suggestions like this and realize its not as easy as you think. With all the boonrips available that thief would have no stealth ever.

Yet we have things like core necs with 50 life force bars being sustained by fb's and eles but that's A-OK.

I really think most complains about stealth comes from blobbers.

FYI Thieves are the ONLY class severely hurt by several mechanic in WvW. But do you care ? No you dont !

Theyre hurt by 2 different types of stealth traps that apply 30 seconds revealTheyre hurt by fighting in range of a sentry that adds 30 seconds reveal.Theyre hurt by Every tower radar with a massive range making them not fight in that area,Forever reveal.Running with a blob that tries a upgraded tower with radar? What are you even doing there,youre useless,go home because youl be revealed forever.On desert bl theres an entire area where youre revealed Forever,spanning from NW to NE.

Now for a second,have a thought about how you would feel if any of these mechanics would,instead of adding reveal. Making it so you cant use your blocks/aegis or your invulns. Would you like this ? Nope. Think about hitting a Fully upgraded tower with radar with your blob,and that radar would make it so all of you cant use your blocks/aegis or invulns,pretty lame right ? Thats how thieves already feel. Then add people Still complaining for you to be nerfed while all these added mechanics are ingame already.

We have ingame specs able to plant reveals on them,we have specs that can hard counter them aswell.

Stop,complaining. Learn,to play.

Another FYI i used to be a main warri with a massive hate against thief,saying how broken and easy to play they are. Untill i played it myself and realized its one of the most difficult classes to play well.

...wow. So lets see...the role of thief in pvp can not be fullfilled by any other class, no matter what build. Its the only class role which cant be replaced by anything, while for every other role, there are several classes, that are (almost) as good as the next one. Thiefs still complain.

In WvW, there is no doubt what class is king of roaming, since the start of the game. Its thief. But they complain. About other classes have stealth, to. Other classes have evade-frames, to. Other classes have high mobility, to (even when it requires them to take rune of speed for at least some mobility).

Thief players love to point out their low hp as a justification why a backstab (or what ever) SHOULD lead to 5k+ damage on a medium armor target with all defensive boons up on the opponent (while there is the initiative system still in play of course, instead of actual weapon skill cd`s), and how stealth is useless infight...yet you and i can see, that each and every actual usefull roaming build uses stealth to different degrees. Thief do. Ranger do. Mesmer do. And also Engineers.Aside of warrior (and their pretty stupid class mechanics available), there isnt a single "roamer" that doesnt take advantage out of having access to stealth somehow....

So, what again, makes thiefs so special, when it comes to how THEY are so heavily effected, by traps, and watchtowers, but no other "roaming" class?

Highest stealth access, highest mobility, very high evades frames, laughable easy to achive trait inbound high damage modifiers.... the ini system... the stupid shortbow 5 thing..

Yeah. Clearly, its not the thiefs that should learn to play in 2020.

We'll all wait on your non edited lengthy video displaying this.

[Sobx.1758]

@Jeran.6850 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Vihar.5780 said:

@"jpsssss.7530" said:Simple solution to stealth: Make Stealth a Boon. The good thieves still get to abuse stealth, and the bad ones walk into sadboi circles and die. On top of that it can be modified to force people to build into perma stealth, instead of inherently having it. It'd give better counterplay options while making it easier to balance. I see it as an absolute win!

This is a good idea, too.

No it really isnt. You people should try to play a thief seriously yourselves before trying to make or agree to suggestions like this and realize its not as easy as you think. With all the boonrips available that thief would have no stealth ever.

Yet we have things like core necs with 50 life force bars being sustained by fb's and eles but that's A-OK.

I really think most complains about stealth comes from blobbers.

FYI Thieves are the ONLY class severely hurt by several mechanic in WvW. But do you care ? No you dont !

Theyre hurt by 2 different types of stealth traps that apply 30 seconds revealTheyre hurt by fighting in range of a sentry that adds 30 seconds reveal.Theyre hurt by Every tower radar with a massive range making them not fight in that area,Forever reveal.Running with a blob that tries a upgraded tower with radar? What are you even doing there,youre useless,go home because youl be revealed forever.On desert bl theres an entire area where youre revealed Forever,spanning from NW to NE.

Now for a second,have a thought about how you would feel if any of these mechanics would,instead of adding reveal. Making it so you cant use your blocks/aegis or your invulns. Would you like this ? Nope. Think about hitting a Fully upgraded tower with radar with your blob,and that radar would make it so all of you cant use your blocks/aegis or invulns,pretty lame right ? Thats how thieves already feel. Then add people Still complaining for you to be nerfed while all these added mechanics are ingame already.

We have ingame specs able to plant reveals on them,we have specs that can hard counter them aswell.

Stop,complaining. Learn,to play.

Another FYI i used to be a main warri with a massive hate against thief,saying how broken and easy to play they are. Untill i played it myself and realized its one of the most difficult classes to play well.

...wow. So lets see...the role of thief in pvp can not be fullfilled by any other class, no matter what build. Its the only class role which cant be replaced by anything, while for every other role, there are several classes, that are (almost) as good as the next one. Thiefs still complain.

Cool. The question is: do you understand why? And do you think it actually has a lot to do with this thread, which is about stealth?

In WvW, there is no doubt what class is king of roaming, since the start of the game. Its thief. But they complain. About other classes have stealth, to. Other classes have evade-frames, to. Other classes have high mobility, to (even when it requires them to take rune of speed for at least some mobility).

A class is strong at roaming while being a sad pile of trash in group play. So sure, lets make it garbage in roaming too and call it a day, solid idea.There are other strong roaming classes that aren't nearly as useless in zerg settings, not sure what exactly you're trying to say here. That an assassin-like class is strong at picking off single targets? WHAT?! No other mmorpg in existance ever done it, this is so unexpected!

Thief players love to point out their low hp as a justification why a backstab (or what ever) SHOULD lead to 5k+ damage on a medium armor target with all defensive boons up on the opponent (while there is the initiative system still in play of course, instead of actual weapon skill cd`s), and how stealth is useless infight...yet you and i can see, that each and every actual usefull roaming build uses stealth to different degrees. Thief do. Ranger do. Mesmer do. And also Engineers.Aside of warrior (and their pretty stupid class mechanics available), there isnt a single "roamer" that doesnt take advantage out of having access to stealth somehow....

So, what again, makes thiefs so special, when it comes to how THEY are so heavily effected, by traps, and watchtowers, but no other "roaming" class?

You're saying that as if thief is the only class that can deal "5k+ damage on a medium armor target" which isn't even remotely close to being correct.Also you use "not a single" phrase probably to make a bigger impact in what you're saying, but you literally need to exclude "that single" class for that to somewhat make sense. Except neither does rev. And Ranger doesn't really need it for the most part. Aaaand engi uses it as an "oh-shit" button or to wait out the cooldowns instead of actually using it while fighting/roaming. On the contrary, thief uses it to activate its class mechanic for damage.

Highest stealth access, highest mobility, very high evades frames, laughable easy to achive trait inbound high damage modifiers.... the ini system... the stupid shortbow 5 thing..

I think I'm lost a bit here -so is this a thread about invisibility or a place for you to vent about overal thief playstyle?

Yeah. Clearly, its not the thiefs that should learn to play in 2020.

Yup.

[Jeran.6850]

@"kash.9213" said:

We'll all wait on your non edited lengthy video displaying this.

Me? Im sorry, but are you thinking of yourself as an thief player? A skillfull one? Why dont you provide a non edited "lengthy" (whatever...) video displaying what you are NOT able to to, will you please?

[kash.9213]

@Jeran.6850 said:

@"kash.9213" said:

We'll all wait on your non edited lengthy video displaying this.

Me? Im sorry, but are you thinking of yourself as an thief player? A skillfull one? Why dont you provide a non edited "lengthy" (whatever...)

video displaying what you are NOT able to to

, will you please?

I'm a casual player. I'm not the one making wild claims. What are you even asking in bold?

[Jeran.6850]

@"Sobx.1758" said:

...wow. So lets see...the role of thief in pvp can not be fullfilled by any other class, no matter what build. Its the only class role which cant be replaced by anything, while for every other role, there are several classes, that are (almost) as good as the next one. Thiefs still complain.

Cool. The question is: do you understand why? And do you think it actually has a lot to do with this thread, which is about stealth?

Even someone that doesnt pvp knows why, but as you are the one who knows better than me anyway ...why spend energy to explain. Is it stealth related? What do i know, but most possibly, yes---so indeed, there is something related to the topic.

In WvW, there is no doubt what class is king of roaming, since the start of the game. Its thief. But they complain. About other classes have stealth, to. Other classes have evade-frames, to. Other classes have high mobility, to (even when it requires them to take rune of speed for at least some mobility).

A class is strong at roaming while being a sad pile of trash in group play. So sure, lets make it garbage in roaming too and call it a day, solid idea.There are other strong roaming classes that aren't nearly as useless in zerg settings, not sure what exactly you're trying to say here. That an assassin-like class is strong at picking off single targets? WHAT?! No other mmorpg in existance ever done it, this is so unexpected!

So... saying the strongest roaming class since 2013 (?) is thief, is somehow wrong because its not that good in group play? Other games are irrelevant to a topic in the GW2-forum AT ALL, dear man/woman/diverse person.

Thief players love to point out their low hp as a justification why a backstab (or what ever) SHOULD lead to 5k+ damage on a medium armor target with all defensive boons up on the opponent (while there is the initiative system still in play of course, instead of actual weapon skill cd`s), and how stealth is useless infight...yet you and i can see, that each and every actual usefull roaming build uses stealth to different degrees. Thief do. Ranger do. Mesmer do. And also Engineers.Aside of warrior (and their pretty stupid class mechanics available), there isnt a single "roamer" that doesnt take advantage out of having access to stealth somehow....

So, what again, makes thiefs so special, when it comes to how THEY are so heavily effected, by traps, and watchtowers, but no other "roaming" class?

You're saying that as if thief is the only class that can deal "5k+ damage on a medium armor target" which isn't even remotely close to being correct.Also you use "not a single" phrase probably to make a bigger impact in what you're saying, but you literally need to exclude "that single" class for that to somewhat make sense. Except neither does rev. And Ranger doesn't really need it for the most part. Aaaand engi uses it as an "oh-kitten" button or to wait out the cooldowns instead of actually using it while fighting/roaming. On the contrary, thief uses it to activate its class mechanic for damage.

Its the still the class that most easily can have a very high impact OR leave out completely unharmed, if they chose to do so.I also didnt mention "rev" in what you quoted?

Highest stealth access, highest mobility, very high evades frames, laughable easy to achive trait inbound high damage modifiers.... the ini system... the stupid shortbow 5 thing..

I think I'm lost a bit here -so is this a thread about invisibility or a place for you to vent about overal thief playstyle?

I am lost with your reply to. But didnt you say, thief uses "it" (stealth) as a class mechanic for damage? Maybe there is something i said if it comes to thiefs in WvW, that is ....somehow..... actually, related to the topic?

Yeah. Clearly, its not the thiefs that should learn to play in 2020.

Yup.

Ok, wont give you that easy "yup" back in your face.

[Sobx.1758]

@Jeran.6850 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:

...wow. So lets see...the role of thief in pvp can not be fullfilled by any other class, no matter what build. Its the only class role which cant be replaced by anything, while for every other role, there are several classes, that are (almost) as good as the next one. Thiefs still complain.

Cool. The question is: do you understand why? And do you think it actually has a lot to do with this thread, which is about stealth?

Even someone that doesnt pvp knows why, but as you are the one who knows better than me anyway ...why spend energy to explain. Is it stealth related? What do i know, but most possibly, yes---so indeed, there is something related to the topic.

"Even someone that doesn't pvp knows why", but apparently somehow you don't...? ouch.

In WvW, there is no doubt what class is king of roaming, since the start of the game. Its thief. But they complain. About other classes have stealth, to. Other classes have evade-frames, to. Other classes have high mobility, to (even when it requires them to take rune of speed for at least some mobility).

A class is strong at roaming while being a sad pile of trash in group play. So sure, lets make it garbage in roaming too and call it a day, solid idea.There are other strong roaming classes that aren't nearly as useless in zerg settings, not sure what exactly you're trying to say here. That an assassin-like class is strong at picking off single targets? WHAT?! No other mmorpg in existance ever done it, this is so unexpected!So... saying the strongest roaming class since 2013 (?) is thief, is somehow wrong because its not that good in group play?

So... where did I write anything like that?

Thief players love to point out their low hp as a justification why a backstab (or what ever) SHOULD lead to 5k+ damage on a medium armor target with all defensive boons up on the opponent (while there is the initiative system still in play of course, instead of actual weapon skill cd`s), and how stealth is useless infight...yet you and i can see, that each and every actual usefull roaming build uses stealth to different degrees. Thief do. Ranger do. Mesmer do. And also Engineers.Aside of warrior (and their pretty stupid class mechanics available), there isnt a single "roamer" that doesnt take advantage out of having access to stealth somehow....

So, what again, makes thiefs so special, when it comes to how THEY are so heavily effected, by traps, and watchtowers, but no other "roaming" class?

You're saying that as if thief is the only class that can deal "5k+ damage on a medium armor target" which isn't even remotely close to being correct.Also you use "not a single" phrase probably to make a bigger impact in what you're saying, but you literally need to exclude "that single" class for that to somewhat make sense. Except neither does rev. And Ranger doesn't really need it for the most part. Aaaand engi uses it as an "oh-kitten" button or to wait out the cooldowns instead of actually using it while fighting/roaming. On the contrary, thief uses it to activate its class mechanic for damage.

Its the still the class that most easily can have a very high impact OR leave out completely unharmed, if they chose to do so.

"Very high impact" on what exactly?

You mentioned "5k+ dmg" as some kind of argument (I'm still not exactly sure what it was supposed to show), but I guess we're already dropping it?

"Leaving unharmed" isn't winning. Or impacting.

I also didnt mention "rev" in what you quoted?

Yeah, exactly, you didn't. But I did, because you forgot(?) to mention it during your "not a single class" rant.

Highest stealth access, highest mobility, very high evades frames, laughable easy to achive trait inbound high damage modifiers.... the ini system... the stupid shortbow 5 thing..

I think I'm lost a bit here -so is this a thread about invisibility or a place for you to vent about overal thief playstyle?

I am lost with your reply to. But didnt you say, thief uses "it" (stealth) as a class mechanic for damage? Maybe there is something i said if it comes to thiefs in WvW, that is ....somehow..... actually, related to the topic?

You didn't bother addressing it, so I'm not sure either -did I?

What I wrote about thief mechanic is directly connected to stealth (you understand that, right?), on the other hand the quote I was questioning was you... listing "whatever thief can do", which is by far not related to the thread, but is you complaining about class as a whole.

Let me know in what way you think both of these things are somehow the same in your mind.

Yeah. Clearly, its not the thiefs that should learn to play in 2020.

Yup.

Ok, wont give you that easy "yup" back in your face.

Leave my Yup alone. ><

[Shroud.2307]

Those of you hating on Thief because it's mobile are the same ones that chase a solo Thief with 10 people behind you half way across the map and stomp your feet in frustration when it gets away and wastes your time. Or the kind of people that take critical damage and try to defend yourself by chasing the Thief that is now kiting you instead of realizing if they're dropping combat you can do the same by moving the other direction for 2 seconds.

If you think a Thief escaping means it's winning it says a lot about how you determine your own victories.

[saerni.2584]

As a thief main, this kind of topic is pretty typical. And I get it. Stealth is psychologically difficult to deal with. Especially against experienced thieves.

Stealth is something I fight on a daily basis. Thief is just as vulnerable to a stealth attack as any other player. You see someone stealth up and you you have to focus on where they were, where they went, what cooldown they are on until they pop up again.

Then, you learn how to predict your opponent. They just burned half their cooldowns. They are completely invisible but you start kiting a little and get your own defense ready. If they engage, now they are the ones with no cooldowns ready and a serious problem if you have a decent build. If they don’t engage you are ready when they come back to try again.

If they engage, then you strike back and force them to chase you. No matter what they are running, their build needs initiative to maintain their pressure on you. But needing to chase you is what will wreck their momentum. They can’t spend initiative on chasing and damage.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

Nowhere in my original argument did i say this was about thief, i said it was about invisibility and how overused the mechanic has become and how badly it needs to be balanced. Yes thieves are the main issue in many respects but it is fast becoming a problem with many classes and i think as a mechanic is overpowered in many circumstances and too easy too abuse. Anet has turned it into a get out of jail free card for far too many classes now and it needs to be dialed back and have some costs associated to it.

[saerni.2584]

You can usually blame Trapper runes if you are talking about "stealth being overused." Course, you can just run into the trap and reveal them.

I'd like to know why a couple of problematic builds (from your perspective, not necessarily from a balance perspective) warrants changing stealth itself rather than just adjusting the build specific issues.

It's easier to suggest small balance changes that don't require a larger redesign of the entire game.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:Nowhere in my original argument did i say this was about thief, i said it was about invisibility and how overused the mechanic has become and how badly it needs to be balanced. Yes thieves are the main issue in many respects but it is fast becoming a problem with many classes and i think as a mechanic is overpowered in many circumstances and too easy too abuse. Anet has turned it into a get out of jail free card for far too many classes now and it needs to be dialed back and have some costs associated to it.

Gyro elite stealthing everyone is incredibly obnoxious especially since every zerg has 10+ scrappers. Super speed + stealth = free engage, free disengage for your ENTIRE zerg..yay.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:Too much of it in game now, far too many classes have it and it is highly unbalanced. I'm not saying get rid of it but limit the damage you can do while invisible it is OP today and it is a ridiculously overused skill which should be a clear indication that it is too powerful. Remove things like stealth burst, how about removing boons when you go invis, there has to be a cost to this.

Oh my, haven't checked WvW forums in ages... this is why.Stealth is designed with the PvP mode conquest in mind. It's incompatible with WvW. It's either useless for blobbing, or busted for roaming. Removing stealth burst is an impossible thing to do, and losing boons upon entering steath is a mechanic that allows you to grief your teammates by granting them stealth, goes against the core philosophy of this game.There are built in costs and tradeoffs for stealth, but they are balanced for small scale fights where you need to hold capture points. In conquest stealth heavy builds are somewhat balanced, in any other gamemode they are either busted or useless(like in the 3v3 season).

And there is no fixing this. Here is why you shouldn't care to begin with: WvW allows for PvE gear, consumables, and has mostly PvE skill balance. It's not just stealth that's broken in this context. It's literally everything.