Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand

[ledernierrempart.6871]

simple. if you get hit while stealthed, you get revealed. point.no need to think of other complicated balance thing.there you go. problem resolved.

you're welcome.

EDIT: and if you fear that stray auto hit launched right before you get stealthed might reveal you, just get unrevealable for 0.5s after you got stealthed unless you got hit by a reveal ability.

[UNOwen.7132]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:simple. if you get hit while stealthed, you get revealed. point.no need to think of other complicated balance thing.there you go. problem resolved.

your welcome.

Yeah except you didnt fix anything. The only issue with stealth is out of combat stealth, where someone bursts you down before you even had a chance to know they were there. Which your change doesnt change. On the other hand you destroy in-combat stealth, which is already weak. So if anything, you just made things worse.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Yeah except you didnt fix anything. The only issue with stealth is out of combat stealth, where someone bursts you down before you even had a chance to know they were there. Which your change doesnt change. On the other hand you destroy in-combat stealth, which is already weak. So if anything, you just made things worse.

OH so you want the possibility to get stealthed ONLY when fighting?... are you sure this is the fix you want?on the other side, i don't make stealth worst but more fair for players against the stealthed player. not everyone is running with a reveal skill.

but you know, bursting down someone from the shadow doesn't have anything to do with the stealth mechanic. just stats on skills.

and thief stealth give it too much of an edge over anyone.let be clear here.nerfing the bursting potential of a thief, which class is designed to do that per nature, isn't the solution. you will just kill the assassin builds in favor of condi cancer and dodge spam. but if you get burst down but have the ability to retaliate and make him go out of stealth by hitting him, it will not only give you a chance agianst him BUT ALSO kill its backstab potential for at least 6s unless he play a deadeye.see?one change to give counter mechanic instead of nerfing skills all over the place like its the solution to all our problems....

[jpsssss.7530]

I still stand by my boon option. The majority of non-necro boon rips require a target, and necro boon rips have a clear marker of where they are. It would give the option to build for longer stealth duration and gives better counter-play options that one elite spec can just ignore. The biggest issue with stealth is in Shadow Arts. Stealth can give: healing, move speed, condition removal, target breaks, AND damage spikes (on both condi and power builds) that have no counter-play. The big issue is stealth has no counter-play for the duration that can be built up (revealed doesn't count when you can remove it).

And for those of you who say "PlAy ThIEf tHeN YoU'Ll UnDeEsTaNd," I did. Not even DE. Core and DD. Stealth is broken. It gives the ability to completely ignore mistakes. The number of fight I should have lost because I flubbed up, but still won them because of stealth is insane. And i'm only running the stealth heal and blinding powder...

[kash.9213]

@"jpsssss.7530" said:I still stand by my boon option. The majority of non-necro boon rips require a target, and necro boon rips have a clear marker of where they are. It would give the option to build for longer stealth duration and gives better counter-play options that one elite spec can just ignore. The biggest issue with stealth is in Shadow Arts. Stealth can give: healing, move speed, condition removal, target breaks, AND damage spikes (on both condi and power builds) that have no counter-play. The big issue is stealth has no counter-play for the duration that can be built up (revealed doesn't count when you can remove it).

And for those of you who say "PlAy ThIEf tHeN YoU'Ll UnDeEsTaNd," I did. Not even DE. Core and DD. Stealth is broken. It gives the ability to completely ignore mistakes. The number of fight I should have lost because I flubbed up, but still won them because of stealth is insane. And i'm only running the stealth heal and blinding powder...

Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

[subversiontwo.7501]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:simple. if you get hit while stealthed, you get revealed. point.no need to think of other complicated balance thing.there you go. problem resolved.

your welcome.

Yeah except you didnt fix anything. The only issue with stealth is out of combat stealth, where someone bursts you down before you even had a chance to know they were there. Which your change doesnt change. On the other hand you destroy in-combat stealth, which is

already weak

. So if anything, you just made things

worse

.It really depends on what you mean by out-of-combat stealth, because it sounds like you have it conflicted with into-combat stealth. When most people talk about stealthing out of combat they refer to the ability to use stealth and mobility combinations to reset combat and restart fights (and through that burning opposing cooldowns and building up an advantage). There already are counters to an initiating burst, that is to wear a tank (or anticipate it acting either proactively or react quick enough) and Anet has recently improved that alternative to make it more of a valid option.

The issue with stealth is that as many other elite specializations, those for the Thief have just compounded an already incredibly powerful set of unique core mechanics for WvW purposes, adding even more escape and reset abilities onto those that the class already had. If Anet wanted the DD to be more of an acrobatics class they needed to limit its access to stealth plays from core. The same goes for DE, with its additional stealths, it wouldn't matter too much if it was an alternative mean to stealth but now it is an additional mean to stealth (and a counter to its own counter on equal enough cooldown to counters). That's the real problem here. That you might get slapped by a steal/backstab combo is more of a build issue on your side possibly barring if there is an issue with prestealth amount and visual cues (limiting others' options to glass). However, that too is then mostly down to stacking duration issues than anything.

Then again, I realize that this may be an experience/perspective issue.

[UNOwen.7132]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Yeah except you didnt fix anything. The only issue with stealth is out of combat stealth, where someone bursts you down before you even had a chance to know they were there. Which your change doesnt change. On the other hand you destroy in-combat stealth, which is

already weak

. So if anything, you just made things

worse

.

OH so you want the possibility to get stealthed ONLY when fighting?... are you sure this is the fix you want?

No, just give stealth a max duration. Being able to stealth before engaging is fine, but not so far in advance the enemy wont even be able to know you were ever there.

on the other side, i don't make stealth worst but more fair for players against the stealthed player. not everyone is running with a reveal skill.

You make it beyond unplayable in-combat. And you dont need a reveal skill (hell I would say reveal skills are traps). You can punish a thief for trying to stealth up mid-combat just by hitting him.

but you know, bursting down someone from the shadow doesn't have anything to do with the stealth mechanic. just stats on skills.

I mean you cant burst someone down without them knowing you were there if they can just see you.

and thief stealth give it too much of an edge over anyone.

And yet thief doesnt tend to win 1v1s. Funny that, isnt it?

let be clear here.nerfing the bursting potential of a thief, which class is designed to do that per nature, isn't the solution. you will just kill the assassin builds in favor of condi cancer and dodge spam. but if you get burst down but have the ability to retaliate and make him go out of stealth by hitting him, it will not only give you a chance agianst him BUT ALSO kill its backstab potential for at least 6s unless he play a deadeye.

You dont need to nerf thieves burst (especially because its too low as is). But you need to lower the ability to stealth up before engaging. In-combat stealth is already weak and needs no nerfs.

[aspirine.6852]

Its not gotten out of hand, it has become stupidly OP.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I just ignore it. Why even bother paying attention to something invisible?

[reddie.5861]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:Too much of it in game now, far too many classes have it and it is highly unbalanced. I'm not saying get rid of it but limit the damage you can do while invisible it is OP today and it is a ridiculously overused skill which should be a clear indication that it is too powerful. Remove things like stealth burst, how about removing boons when you go invis, there has to be a cost to this.

lol so because people use smoke fields to stealth half if not whole blob one class has to suffer?cus ur talking about stealth burst which is only a thief thing well mesmer could do it but still w/e xD

[jpsssss.7530]

@kash.9213 said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

[UNOwen.7132]

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@kash.9213 said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

[Junkpile.7439]

No idea what stealth helps when every place is full of red circless whole time.

[Clownmug.8357]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@kash.9213 said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the

worst

defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all

far

better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

So even though you can't be targeted, and like 90% of attacks require a target, it's the worst defense option?

[UNOwen.7132]

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@kash.9213 said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the

worst

defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all

far

better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

So even though you can't be targeted, and like 90% of attacks require a target, it's the worst defense option?

Consider that targetted spells also do not hit you if youre evading, blocking, or invulnerable. Then consider the fact that you can still be hit by targetted spells in stealth, and stealth doesnt immediately break targetting (so targetted attacks keep hitting for a bit less than a second, and channeled abilities continue in full). Then consider that its a lot less than 90%, since all melee attacks can easily hit you, and any AoEs. When you consider all of that, yeah its the worst defense option by a pretty wide margin.

[jpsssss.7530]

• @UNOwen.7132 said:Consider that targetted spells also do not hit you if youre evading, blocking, or invulnerable. Then consider the fact that you can still be hit by targetted spells in stealth, and stealth doesnt immediately break targetting (so targetted attacks keep hitting for a bit less than a second, and channeled abilities continue in full). Then consider that its a lot less than 90%, since all melee attacks can easily hit you, and any AoEs. When you consider all of that, yeah its the worst defense option by a pretty wide margin.

Perhaps consider thief (the biggest offender) has so many evades and mobility skills combined with stealth negates all of your complaints. Thief has no weapon cooldowns and can refresh its utility cooldowns. Lets not forget condi cleanses, health regen and move speed on stealth on thief and the rapid boons on mesmer. Saying its the worst defensive tool is the big dumb.

[Clownmug.8357]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@kash.9213 said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the

worst

defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all

far

better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

So even though you can't be targeted, and like 90% of attacks require a target, it's the worst defense option?

Consider that targetted spells also do not hit you if youre evading, blocking, or invulnerable. Then consider the fact that you can still be hit by targetted spells in stealth, and stealth doesnt immediately break targetting (so targetted attacks keep hitting for a bit less than a second, and channeled abilities continue in full). Then consider that its a lot less than 90%, since all melee attacks can easily hit you, and any AoEs. When you consider all of that, yeah its the worst defense option by a pretty wide margin.

Still seems like pretty good defense to me if the opponents attacks are limited to perfectly timed channelled skills or hitting with melee and AoE by guessing.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@kash.9213 said:Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

Stealth is the

worst

defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all

far

better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

So even though you can't be targeted, and like 90% of attacks require a target, it's the worst defense option?

Consider that targetted spells also do not hit you if youre evading, blocking, or invulnerable. Then consider the fact that you can still be hit by targetted spells in stealth, and stealth doesnt immediately break targetting (so targetted attacks keep hitting for a bit less than a second, and channeled abilities continue in full). Then consider that its a lot less than 90%, since all melee attacks can easily hit you, and any AoEs. When you consider all of that, yeah its the worst defense option by a pretty wide margin.

Still seems like pretty good defense to me if the opponents attacks are limited to perfectly timed channelled skills or hitting with melee and AoE by guessing.

Oh they dont have to be perfectly timed. Use it at any point before stealth, and they will be hit. And they can still be hit by targetted abilities for a bit. And you dont have to guess actually. You know where they are at the start, and then you can track them. And thats ignoring that you can hit them while they try to enter stealth. Its not good at all.

[UNOwen.7132]

@jpsssss.7530 said:

• @UNOwen.7132 said:Consider that targetted spells also do not hit you if youre evading, blocking, or invulnerable. Then consider the fact that you can still be hit by targetted spells in stealth, and stealth doesnt immediately break targetting (so targetted attacks keep hitting for a bit less than a second, and channeled abilities continue in full). Then consider that its a lot less than 90%, since all melee attacks can easily hit you, and any AoEs. When you consider all of that, yeah its the worst defense option by a pretty wide margin.

Perhaps consider thief (the biggest offender) has so many evades and mobility skills combined with stealth negates all of your complaints. Thief has no weapon cooldowns and can refresh its utility cooldowns. Lets not forget condi cleanses, health regen and move speed on stealth on thief and the rapid boons on mesmer. Saying its the worst defensive tool is the big dumb.

Consider this counterpoint: A, thief cant do that while entering stealth (Where you can burst him to death) and B, if he does that, its evades doing the damage avoiding. Stealth is doing nothing defensively there. Also, improvisation hasnt been run in months, so theif actually cant do that. Thieves condi cleanses are far below average, thieves healing is far below average (What health regen do they even use, unless you mean the bit of healing from leeching venoms that get wasted on the start) and move speed doesnt help much defensively when youre CCd. Saying its the worst defensive tool is strictly factually correct.

[saerni.2584]

As a thief, of course stealth is defensive. It’s also offensive. I use it to attack and reposition so I don’t get hit by those AoEs and other attacks.

Just because stealth isn’t a perfect defense like invuln doesn’t mean it isn’t a defense. And good thing it isn’t an invuln because I use it a lot more often than other professions are allowed to use invuln.

[Dawdler.8521]

@saerni.2584 said:As a thief, of course stealth is defensive. It’s also offensive.Well then, at least it isnt neutral.

[Zawn.9647]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:simple. if you get hit while stealthed, you get revealed. point.no need to think of other complicated balance thing.there you go. problem resolved.

your welcome.

Yeah except you didnt fix anything. The only issue with stealth is out of combat stealth, where someone bursts you down before you even had a chance to know they were there. Which your change doesnt change. On the other hand you destroy in-combat stealth, which is

already weak

. So if anything, you just made things

worse

.

every game has a stealthing class. your suggestion doesn’t make any sense.the issue is that you’re able to insta-burst someone down, not being stealthed... if the thief came out of stealth doing a 8k-10k burst it wouldn’t be that bad. also, the bigger issue is being able to re-stealth right after the killing(or failling) attempt. there’s no risk to it. you killed someone? stealth and run... his friends wont catch youdidnt kill anyone? stealth and run... wait a few seconds for your CDs and try again without any worries since you can move miles with SB5 and stealth easily

[UNOwen.7132]

@Zawn.9647 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:simple. if you get hit while stealthed, you get revealed. point.no need to think of other complicated balance thing.there you go. problem resolved.

your welcome.

Yeah except you didnt fix anything. The only issue with stealth is out of combat stealth, where someone bursts you down before you even had a chance to know they were there. Which your change doesnt change. On the other hand you destroy in-combat stealth, which is

already weak

. So if anything, you just made things

worse

.

every game has a stealthing class. your suggestion doesn’t make any sense.

Far from every MMO actually. Its a popular MMO archetype, but not one in every MMO. Western MMOs tend to have it less as a rule I believe. Might have something to do with DnD being a western thing.

the issue is that you’re able to insta-burst someone down, not being stealthed... if the thief came out of stealth doing a 8k-10k burst it wouldn’t be that bad. also, the bigger issue is being able to re-stealth right after the killing(or failling) attempt. there’s no risk to it. you killed someone? stealth and run... his friends wont catch you

Thats ... about how much thief bursts though? And no, that isnt an issue at all. There is a lot of risk to it. Because stealthing up is slow and leaves you vulnerable. And even if you succeed the enemy can just cleave you down and track you through stealth.

didnt kill anyone? stealth and run... wait a few seconds for your CDs and try again without any worries since you can move miles with SB5 and stealth easily

Oh you dont stealth and run. You just run. Stealthing is about the only way you can die. And sure, but thats an issue with SB5.

[NotFound.7813]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:If you're a skilled player you know how to properly play against stealth, those who don't aren't effective regardless but i find no joy in losing a mechanic i am adept at using. It has been a staple in the game since the onset and it needs to stay, thanks!

;)

Tbh.It's the exact same thing that shades were treated.Staying out of a red circle isn't hard is it?But people cried that they can't see when a red circle is attacking.

So they added this annoying delay.

But stealth is ok? It's the exact same thing. You can't see when an attack is coming. And a backstab doing 6-8k damage is just ridiculous. That's taking away half the health of your opponent.

So because I can't see when a thief is about to backstab me, I want an exclamation mark over my head, half a second before a stealthed player attacks, so I can dodge the attack.

Aoe becomes more and more undodgeable with more players impried on a fight

On a organized paired fight like 5v5 teans wouldnt pick a thief , so why is thief broken? 6k backstab wouldnt kill u , if u eat two hearseekers after backstab it will and thats ur failure , also there is lot of attacks that u wont be able to dodge on big fights , on 1v1 or 2v2 u shouldnt lose agaisnt a thief , if u do its because ur using a non duelist build or the thief is far away from ur skill lv

[NotFound.7813]

@ASP.8093 said:Condi Mesmer's scepter has both a channel and a low-cooldown block, and the Mirage spec lets you counterattack freely while defending

You've also got your own stealth and instant-speed mobility.

Not sayin' it's always going to be easy for you, but think about the tools you do have here.

Most condi builds are bad at chasing down enemies who don't stick around, though.

Yes and thats why mirage has one dodge, it is perfeclty balanced ,