Should they add a DPS meter? - [Merged]

[Leger.3724]

27 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Don't WoW and FF14 have some of, if not the, highest playerbases right now? Funny that seeing how WoW is huge on performance metrics, as well as difficult endgame content, as is FF14 with arguably more difficult endgame content available than GW2.

No, they don't. Biggest in MMOs? Sure. But the MMO genre is small and gets smaller every year. Does World of Warcraft do well on Twitch? Sure. But what does it say that fewer people are playing but viewing is somewhat stable? They can't be bothered to keep up with a comfort game because it's tedious but they have some interest in it so they watch others play it. 

The audience has shifted now that there are more game genres and options available. MMOs are struggling to adapt. They're relaunching the games as they were 10+ years ago to capitalize on nostalgia and comfort. RTS went through this problem in the early 2000s. They're still trying to figure it out today. People simply don't want what RTS has to offer. And increasingly we're seeing the same with MMOs.

ArcDPS is a symptom of outdated game design. It's a game developer not providing an intuitive, simple combat system that appeals to people today. It's why despite World of Warcraft being big... launched classic and it's why they are making similar raiding decisions to Arena Net where they keep tinkering trying to make them more appealing. 

I'm not here to pretend I have answers on what can be done to revive the genre. But in the last 10 years has anything worked for MMOs outside of circumstance and Old School Runescape's approach of Deadman mode and Leagues mode? For anyone unfamiliar - you make a new character in those modes, the game mode lasts a few weeks to a couple months and then last man standing wins deadman mode because it's pvp while Leagues has a points system for achieving various things - killing certain bosses, completing raids and getting certain drops.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i think a few years ago this game had 13million accounts while world of warcraft's all-time peak was something like 12mil. its never been as big as everyone thinks it is, it just seems that way due to all the advertising and exposure it gets (through streamers, etc.).

Edited December 19, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Passerbye.6291]

5 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

The fact this game needs DPS and boon meters to know if someone is doing their job or not is bad game design, point blank and it's why this game has the smallest end game pve community out of any MMO worth mentioning including ones with smaller playerbases like New World.

You first mentioned gw2's lower playerbase and tried to justify it by somehow tying to it having a dps meter, I point out that the single biggest MMO out there has a lot more dps metrics available than gw2, then you go completely rogue and say this:

2 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

No, they don't. Biggest in MMOs? Sure. But the MMO genre is small and gets smaller every year. Does World of Warcraft do well on Twitch? Sure. But what does it say that fewer people are playing but viewing is somewhat stable? They can't be bothered to keep up with a comfort game because it's tedious but they have some interest in it so they watch others play it. 

If we're going to compare pears to apples, a lot more people watch television than play games, therefore anet should have made gw2 a soap opera! /s

2 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

ArcDPS is a symptom of outdated game design. It's a game developer not providing an intuitive, simple combat system that appeals to people today. It's why despite World of Warcraft being big... launched classic and it's why they are making similar raiding decisions to Arena Net where they keep tinkering trying to make them more appealing. 

I don't know what century you're from but witholding information is not a more modern design, the presence of a DPS meter is objectively better than trying to keep people in the dark. Also, gw2 has one of the best combat systems out of any MMO I have ever played. Then again it depends on what you mean by intuitive and simple. If what you require is a right click to win like a hack and slash, I sure hope the devs don't follow your vision.

All in all, reading through your responses to the thread makes me think you are trying to shift the blame and make it the game's fault that you don't do well instead of learning to play. Straight up calling skill issue on this one.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think a few years ago this game had 13million accounts while world of warcraft's all-time peak was something like 12mil. its never been as big as everyone thinks it is, it just seems that way due to all the advertising and exposure it gets (through streamers, etc.).

WoW had 12 million concurrent players (aka active subbed players world wide). That is NOT the same as total accounts. Don't mix those up please!

Now I don't have to mention that I am not the biggest WoW or Blizzard fan any more, but that game is dimensions bigger than GW2 and always has been.

Same as FF14.

EDIT: in case you want more proof, compare revenue for the games. Blizzard had a total revenue of 7.5 billion for 2022. Now if we assume WoW is only 1/4 of that or even just 1/10th (highly unlikely, WoW remains a big earner for Blizzard), it would still amount to 750 million. That's more than 7 times the revenue of GW2 in 2022. Again, not even the same ballpark.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

doesn't ARCDPS violate some internet privacy laws? The tool never requests authorization to access your stats. If you join a squad and they're using it, they will have access to your 'performance' without asking for your consent to share that information.

[Passerbye.6291]

7 minutes ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

doesn't ARCDPS violate some internet privacy laws? The tool never requests authorization to access your stats. If you join a squad and they're using it, they will have access to your 'performance' without asking for your consent to share that information.

GW2 celebrity DPS leaks, so hot right now.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

11 minutes ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

doesn't ARCDPS violate some internet privacy laws? The tool never requests authorization to access your stats. If you join a squad and they're using it, they will have access to your 'performance' without asking for your consent to share that information.

Hollywood be all over the ArcDPS leaks of Johhny Depp.

[Cyninja.2954]

12 minutes ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

doesn't ARCDPS violate some internet privacy laws? The tool never requests authorization to access your stats. If you join a squad and they're using it, they will have access to your 'performance' without asking for your consent to share that information.

The tool doesn't access your stats, it access that data sent to the client of the player using arcdps.

It's also not your stats, it's Arenanet stats/data, better actually read those terms of service instead of just pressing "I accept", and while we are at it: your account isn't your account, it's your lent account which remains property of Arenanet. Better rip that bandaid off now. Also in the ToS.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think a few years ago this game had 13million accounts while world of warcraft's all-time peak was something like 12mil. its never been as big as everyone thinks it is, it just seems that way due to all the advertising and exposure it gets (through streamers, etc.).

Active subscriptions is not in the same zip code with total number of accounts created.  To put it in perspective, at 12 million subscriptions WoW was earning 180 million USD per month (not including any other sales) while GW2's latest quarter earned less than a tenth of that in total revenue.

Edited December 19, 2023 by AliamRationem.5172

[Sobx.1758]

55 minutes ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

doesn't ARCDPS violate some internet privacy laws? The tool never requests authorization to access your stats. If you join a squad and they're using it, they will have access to your 'performance' without asking for your consent to share that information.

Yeah, these are the same "privacy laws" you're "violating" right now by reading someone's posts without their direct consent for you to do so.
And you better send me a written request by traditional mail before you dare looking at my character ingame too, I did not directly consent for you to do so! 🤦‍♂️ 

Like... dude.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Active subscriptions is not in the same zip code with total number of accounts created.  To put it in perspective, at 12 million subscriptions WoW was earning 180 million USD per month (not including any other sales) while GW2's latest quarter earned less than a tenth of that in total revenue.

that number wasn't the total accounts created, by the number of active accounts at the time (and averaging something like 1mil daily logins). that said, pointing out that a subscription service that forces players to pay at regular intervals, which in turn forces them to play at regular intervals, also makes more money, seems a bit silly considering that obviously that's going to be a more effective business model than letting them come and go as they please.

 

of course if you cater to video game addiction, fomo and other.. questionable industry practices, you're going to have more player activity and profit. it doesn't mean it was ever actually a bigger or better game, just that it was better at taking advantage of people.

Edited December 20, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

that number wasn't the total accounts created, by the number of active accounts at the time (and averaging something like 1mil daily logins). that said, pointing out that a subscription service that forces players to pay at regular intervals, which in turn forces them to play at regular intervals, also makes more money, seems a bit silly considering that obviously that's going to be a more effective business model than letting them come and go as they please.

 

of course if you cater to video game addiction, fomo and other.. questionable industry practices, you're going to have more player activity and profit. it doesn't mean it was ever actually a bigger or better game, just that it was better at taking advantage of people.

None of that makes any sense, but if you want to believe that GW2 was ever even remotely close to as popular as WoW, it's your world.  Do what you want! 

[WRay.2391]

You can find mmo popularity charts. Probably not 100% accurate, but close. WoW is usually more than 2 mil daily players, GW2 around 400k. 

[Surelia.2651]

This is going to read very pedantic no doubt but after two years of this thread and all the replies I think that some folks are forgetting the obvious: there is a qualitative difference between "optimal" and "doable" and both have a place in the game.

I mean, I have been raiding across 3 different MMOs for the better part of 15 yrs now.  Was at one time a raid leader in two of my games.  There can be many encounters won by players with, let's say "barely passable dps." Granted, it might take them twice the amount of time one would normally want to spend, but they can do it.  If they eventually also learn to do all the mechanics, they might cut that time down and "get 'er done" in a less excruciatingly long time.   That is what many labeled "average" players tend to do.  They go, they try to do the mechanics, they wipe fairly often until they learn them, but in the end they get 'er done.  They have fun. They are happy.  Textbook definition of doable.

Other people that start out this way and do this long enough though, start to realize at some point there might be another way to get to the happy end result (wasn't that fun, cool, etc.) without having to invest so much time and energy to get there.   So in comes the learning curve with the optimized builds, stats, rotations, comps, etc. all meant to increase output, diminish time investment, in some cases even do away with mechanics, to come triumphantly screeching into the victory line with minutes (maybe hours) shaved off the end and -- maybe -- even no deaths along the way.  Cool. They are happy.

Problem is obvious: you have two categorically different definitions of "fun" happening here.  With some gray in the middle.  Some people actually like the wipes and the long time investments of "doable."  Other people hate it with a passion and are beyond setting foot into any group that isn't clearly composed of people who can provide reassurance that they're worth bringing into the group (LI/KP demands).

Frankly I don't see anything wrong with either mindset. 

If people want to dally in group content without understanding or caring about optimized comps, why boon uptimes are important, why positioning is critical, why 10k dps is painful, etc.  then let them be and let them do their thing.    If people want 1500 LI/KP and ArcDPS logs dating back to the beginning of time, need nothing short of 100%uptime on boons and 42k benchmark video or whatever the **** for you to be in their core team, let them too just be.

The reality is that beyond this, there is always going to be a third camp of people who fall somewhere in the middle (they grays), and they may or may not gravitate to one side or the other of this performance fence, depending on mood.

All people are here to play --- hopefully the way they want to, and will not be made to feel wrong for their way of enjoying things.   So take responsibility for yourself and own your time, and respect the time of others.

All this theorizing about Arc's impact (or lack of it) on the game is massively irrelevant because THAT ship sailed the first time content in this  game was introduced which put players up against objectives that demanded something akin to actual comps planning and collaboration beyond overland meta zerging. 

Arguing against dps meters existing in a game where development has clearly evolved to the creation of both content and balancing priorities to maximize dps -- is a complete and utter waste of time.   If you don't want to invest in learning how to use them or what benefit they can give you -- then don't.  

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

that number wasn't the total accounts created, by the number of active accounts at the time (and averaging something like 1mil daily logins). that said, pointing out that a subscription service that forces players to pay at regular intervals, which in turn forces them to play at regular intervals, also makes more money, seems a bit silly considering that obviously that's going to be a more effective business model than letting them come and go as they please.

 

of course if you cater to video game addiction, fomo and other.. questionable industry practices, you're going to have more player activity and profit. it doesn't mean it was ever actually a bigger or better game, just that it was better at taking advantage of people.

More aggressiv monetization sure can make a difference, but not in this ballpark.

Need I remind you that I was comparing current WoW revenue? We aren't even talking about 12 million active subscribers. Back then the revenue for WoW was higher too, significantly higher.

I get it, you want your MMO of choice to be more popular (GW2 is also and has been my MMO of choice, still doesn't mean I need to be delusional about its size). None of that will bridge the gap between MMO sizes though.

Accounts created, especially when comparing a b2p game with a subscription game is comparing apples to oranges. 

16 million unique accounts created means literally just that: over the games lifespan, a total of 16 million accounts were created (that's where we are at atm, or at least the last official info given pre EoD). It says nothing about active users (and fun fact, it also says nothing about the quality of the account created. This number includes f2p trial accounts too).

12 million active users for a subscirption game means: there are currently 12 million players actively paying for a subscription (or at least there were back then at WoWs peak). It says NOTHING about total accounts, which will likely be in the dozens of millions which are not active, especially for a game as old as WoW (the usual assumption for a healthy game is 4 times the accounts versus active accounts, more inactive accounts as the game grows older). With a number as high as 12 million concurent useres, the estimate for total accounts would be around 30-40 million. Even if we adjust that for say "only double" because there was a higher rate of player retention, it would still end up at 20+ million accounts created for WoW back then.

Case in point: those 12 million active accounts back then will be inactive to a significant amount currently, given current active useres are down compared to ath.

Yet the game still outperformed GW2 10 times over and more revenue wise.

WoW was and remains a huge game, just as FF14 now. There is a reason it is/was considered an anomaly.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

More aggressiv monetization sure can make a difference, but not in this ballpark.

Need I remind you that I was comparing current WoW revenue? We aren't even talking about 12 million active subscribers. Back then the revenue for WoW was higher too, significantly higher.

I get it, you want your MMO of choice to be more popular (GW2 is also and has been my MMO of choice, still doesn't mean I need to be delusional about its size). None of that will bridge the gap between MMO sizes though.

Accounts created, especially when comparing a b2p game with a subscription game is comparing apples to oranges. 

16 million unique accounts created means literally just that: over the games lifespan, a total of 16 million accounts were created (that's where we are at atm, or at least the last official info given pre EoD). It says nothing about active users (and fun fact, it also says nothing about the quality of the account created. This number includes f2p trial accounts too).

12 million active users for a subscirption game means: there are currently 12 million players actively paying for a subscription (or at least there were back then at WoWs peak). It says NOTHING about total accounts, which will likely be in the dozens of millions which are not active, especially for a game as old as WoW (the usual assumption for a healthy game is 4 times the accounts versus active accounts, more inactive accounts as the game grows older). With a number as high as 12 million concurent useres, the estimate for total accounts would be around 30-40 million. Even if we adjust that for say "only double" because there was a higher rate of player retention, it would still end up at 20+ million accounts created for WoW back then.

Case in point: those 12 million active accounts back then will be inactive to a significant amount currently, given current active useres are down compared to ath.

Yet the game still outperformed GW2 10 times over and more revenue wise.

WoW was and remains a huge game, just as FF14 now. There is a reason it is/was considered an anomaly.

30+ times over.  The comparison was per month subscription revenue vs. per quarter revenue, so less than 1/10th the dollar amount becomes less than 1/30th the dollar amount on a per quarter basis.  But of course that doesn't include any other revenue beyond just the subscription fee (i.e. no cash shop, no game purchases, etc.).  So the actual comparison would have WoW at its peak outperforming GW2's revenue today by significantly more than 30 times over.  While that doesn't provide us sufficient information for direct comparison, only the most devoted of fanbois could possibly entertain the idea that GW2 has ever been remotely close to as big as WoW with that kind of disparity.

[Morvran.8265]

I think an ingame DPS meter would be a great addition to the game.

One of the biggest problems of GW2 when it comes to endgame content is how good players do 10 times the damage of bad players, and bad players don't even realize how little they are contributing.

If Anet makes the game harder like in HoT people will just complain because they are suddenly stuck. However if ingame DPS meters were a thing everyone could get a harmless reality check. Maybe it'd motivate people to seek out resources and see how much they could improve, which could pave their way into harder content later on.

It'd be a net benefit for the game. I guess some could say it'd also lead to gatekeeping, but 3rd party addons already exist, this would just make it accessible for the average person and maybe in time help them to catch up to others.

[Astralporing.1957]

12 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think a few years ago this game had 13million accounts while world of warcraft's all-time peak was something like 12mil. its never been as big as everyone thinks it is, it just seems that way due to all the advertising and exposure it gets (through streamers, etc.).

This game has around 17-18 million accounts now. This has nothing to do with peak player numbers however, as most of those accounts never got past ~500 AP.

The GW2 active player peak was around 4 million, and it was in the first year of the game. By next year the number dropped by about half, and around HoT launch it was somewhere in the 1 million ballpark. How those numbers changed after that point is unknown (as Anet never mentioned anything about it after that point, even unoficially), but it's extremely unlikely they'd have increased significantly after that point. If anything, they are probably even smaller nowadays.

(notice, btw, that Anet counts as an active player anyone that has logged in even once within last month, so it's an equivalent of what some other games call a "monthly player count")

Just as a comparison, FF XIV has currently an estimated daily player count of around 1.5 million, and monthly count of ~19 million. Notice, that, just like with GW2, this does include the f2p accounts. Compared to that, GW2 is truly just peanuts.

 

[Widebody.5071]

I believe the game would be better served if everyone keep their dps to themselves unless they willingly share it. Those that's into into the sort of thing is more then likely charting their stats already.  An in-game dps meter will be just something else to slow down some folks computers and add another component that could manipulated by those looking for an advantage. 

It seems like there's things more important that can be focused on instead of seeing how hard and fast we're hitting. With the lack of an E-sports segment attached to the game why is it even necessary to even want something like this in-game? If the developers continue optimizing and upgrading the game we should be good.

Oh yea and see to warrior repair hint hint!

 

[Quirin.1076]

It is a joy when these DPS Meter conversations get merged with another conversation.   When the game introduced an enraged timer with Raids, they introduced enraged timers in other encounters.   By introducing enraged timers you merged the player that simply was happy to play the game with those who played competitive and trying to peak out their damage and their uptimes.   By doing this the dynamics for the player that was simply happy playing the game and picked weapons not on highest dps or highest boon duration but simply because they worked months making a legendary weapon that they liked or they simply used the gear that kept them alive when playing open world solo.

Now the catch with enraged timers is.  You have to reach the DPS cap in order to kill the boss or you lose.   This change forced the player that simply played the game to enjoy their time to play with the player that enjoyed the top damage or the top boon support. Previously the way the game did this before enraged timer is open world bosses is you had to do the mechanics of the fight.   ArenaNet said in one of their Live streams before the release of HoT that they would not add a DPS meter into the game because they did not want to create an elitist environment.   Yet they kept the mechanic of an enrage timer in the game, which created the need to have top DPS to beat the enraged timer.   Any PvE player that builds out a class in the game that can solo survive PvE can take on a raid or strike or any PvE content, but most if not all of those tanky builds cannot reach the dps check to kill the boss before enrage timer.  

It is simple math, Enraged Timer = DPS meter.   The game should add a DPS meter or remove enraged timers from the bosses.  This is why you have the squeaky wheels here on the forum, which is up to 12 pages without an admin freezing it because it has run its course.  

[Jedrik.3109]

1 hour ago, Quirin.1076 said:

It is a joy when these DPS Meter conversations get merged with another conversation.   When the game introduced an enraged timer with Raids, they introduced enraged timers in other encounters.   By introducing enraged timers you merged the player that simply was happy to play the game with those who played competitive and trying to peak out their damage and their uptimes.   By doing this the dynamics for the player that was simply happy playing the game and picked weapons not on highest dps or highest boon duration but simply because they worked months making a legendary weapon that they liked or they simply used the gear that kept them alive when playing open world solo.

Now the catch with enraged timers is.  You have to reach the DPS cap in order to kill the boss or you lose.   This change forced the player that simply played the game to enjoy their time to play with the player that enjoyed the top damage or the top boon support. Previously the way the game did this before enraged timer is open world bosses is you had to do the mechanics of the fight.   ArenaNet said in one of their Live streams before the release of HoT that they would not add a DPS meter into the game because they did not want to create an elitist environment.   Yet they kept the mechanic of an enrage timer in the game, which created the need to have top DPS to beat the enraged timer.   Any PvE player that builds out a class in the game that can solo survive PvE can take on a raid or strike or any PvE content, but most if not all of those tanky builds cannot reach the dps check to kill the boss before enrage timer.  

It is simple math, Enraged Timer = DPS meter.   The game should add a DPS meter or remove enraged timers from the bosses.  This is why you have the squeaky wheels here on the forum, which is up to 12 pages without an admin freezing it because it has run its course.  

While I have no real opinion of adding a dps meter to the game proper due to arc filling in the info gap. What hard enrages on bosses are even relevant now, with the exception of a couple strike CMs?

[Quirin.1076]

3 hours ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

While I have no real opinion of adding a dps meter to the game proper due to arc filling in the info gap. What hard enrages on bosses are even relevant now, with the exception of a couple strike CMs?

ArcDPS is a third party addon.   ArcTemplates was a third party addon.   
The difference is the 4k+ players that were still using ArcTemplates, were banned soon after Template were introduced into the game.   
ArcDPS not part of the original conversation, that I was in when this was merged into 10 other conversations.   
The merged thread about them adding it to the game and the need for it to be in the game outside of a test golem in the raid area in Lions arch.

[Leger.3724]

On 12/19/2023 at 5:08 PM, Passerbye.6291 said:

You first mentioned gw2's lower playerbase and tried to justify it by somehow tying to it having a dps meter, I point out that the single biggest MMO out there has a lot more dps metrics available than gw2, then you go completely rogue and say this:

If we're going to compare pears to apples, a lot more people watch television than play games, therefore anet should have made gw2 a soap opera! /s

I don't know what century you're from but witholding information is not a more modern design, the presence of a DPS meter is objectively better than trying to keep people in the dark. Also, gw2 has one of the best combat systems out of any MMO I have ever played. Then again it depends on what you mean by intuitive and simple. If what you require is a right click to win like a hack and slash, I sure hope the devs don't follow your vision.

All in all, reading through your responses to the thread makes me think you are trying to shift the blame and make it the game's fault that you don't do well instead of learning to play. Straight up calling skill issue on this one.

If you are going to continue to strawman my posts we are done here. I'm not interested in continuing to respond to an overly emotional disingenuous poster who can only segment my post and then argue something I never said. Goodbye.

[Schimmi.6872]

6 hours ago, Quirin.1076 said:

It is a joy when these DPS Meter conversations get merged with another conversation.   When the game introduced an enraged timer with Raids, they introduced enraged timers in other encounters.   By introducing enraged timers you merged the player that simply was happy to play the game with those who played competitive and trying to peak out their damage and their uptimes.   By doing this the dynamics for the player that was simply happy playing the game and picked weapons not on highest dps or highest boon duration but simply because they worked months making a legendary weapon that they liked or they simply used the gear that kept them alive when playing open world solo.

Now the catch with enraged timers is.  You have to reach the DPS cap in order to kill the boss or you lose.   This change forced the player that simply played the game to enjoy their time to play with the player that enjoyed the top damage or the top boon support. Previously the way the game did this before enraged timer is open world bosses is you had to do the mechanics of the fight.   ArenaNet said in one of their Live streams before the release of HoT that they would not add a DPS meter into the game because they did not want to create an elitist environment.   Yet they kept the mechanic of an enrage timer in the game, which created the need to have top DPS to beat the enraged timer.   Any PvE player that builds out a class in the game that can solo survive PvE can take on a raid or strike or any PvE content, but most if not all of those tanky builds cannot reach the dps check to kill the boss before enrage timer.  

It is simple math, Enraged Timer = DPS meter.   The game should add a DPS meter or remove enraged timers from the bosses.  This is why you have the squeaky wheels here on the forum, which is up to 12 pages without an admin freezing it because it has run its course.  

Timers were already in the game before raids, just look at LS1, some of the world bosses were even rather impossible without organised maps which managed the mechanics and did enough dps too, so this wasn't an invention of raids. Some of the organised groups were even stricter than many raid groups.

Enrage timers are also not only there to avoid 10 tanks kiting the boss till it dies of boredom, they are also there to to keep the fight at a reasonable lenght. Because when the fight is too long people loose concentration and it's also more likely to end in drama when the boss fails after a much longer fight.

1 hour ago, Quirin.1076 said:

ArcDPS is a third party addon.   ArcTemplates was a third party addon.   
The difference is the 4k+ players that were still using ArcTemplates, were banned soon after Template were introduced into the game.   
ArcDPS not part of the original conversation, that I was in when this was merged into 10 other conversations.   
The merged thread about them adding it to the game and the need for it to be in the game outside of a test golem in the raid area in Lions arch.

Is there any conirmation fpr 4k players banned because auf the templates, because I only found the statement of the lead GM, who statet that no one was banned for arc and all the drama was stirred up by a PvP-cheater with access to over 60 accounts which have been perma banned?

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

Yes the game needs a built in damage meter.