Expansion: make or break?

[PseudoNewb.5468]

I think the next expansion won't be anything dramatically altering the trajectory of the game. Going from the timeline and rumors that came out of NC Soft West's restructuring, this expansion doesn't seem like it has the time to bring something more revolutionary than the previous releases. So no, I don't think this is make or break. They are not trying to make any dramatically different features and reinvent the game nor are they going to break anything too much in it's formula.

The thing is, the status quo is always a downward trend with age eventually taking hold and brining things down. This game is fortunate to have been enough of a success to give it a long runway to maintain the status quo. Hell I thought this runway was reaching it's end around the second expansion. But here they are, still able to put out two seasons of living world. In my opinion the next expansion doesn't have to prove anything. It just has to make this runway somewhat longer, reinvigorating the population that continue to play the game and holding onto them a bit longer. The Steam release initiative should also give the game a bit more longevity, but that could be a bit of a rough launch depending on how well things work at the time.

That is not to say ANet can be content with simply patching in more content to extend it's life. The thing is, this make or break point you ask about, is really normally something that happens behind the scenes. This expansion has been created to satisfy needs that the company reasonably expects to be meet. It has been greenlit, and no company should greenlight a gamble. Sure there have been major examples of other big publishers having games wildly miss expectations. But those always come from the same big ol AAA publishers who have shown to have insatiable expectations that have, at this point, become comedic. In any case, the breaking point won't be this expansion, it will be the plans for the next updates. What goals is NC Soft setting for the game, how is ANet planning to meet those goals?

This game will not make it or bust with an expansion, that will happen in the background. Perhaps an unexpectedly good selling expansion will give the planners 2nd, 3rd or even more chances at finding a successful plan for the future. Under previous directors, this game seems to have run through a dozen or so plans. Dragon story content associated rewards, and some other pve stuff seem to be the only things still sticking. Even so there are some glaring issues with that content. Some people think the the only viable plans are a new game. And in some aspects they are right. The previous expansions are successful in that they help produce more revenue, but they haven't grown the player base. And the expansions are having diminishing returns. This next one is probably not expected to do any better than PoF (although if the Steam release grows the audience significantly, it could fare better).

These plans will be the most important to if someone, somewhere decides if the game can continue or not. What are they, well those outside can't really know. Could they redefine what it means to release a new game, that still manages to build off of an old one. Maybe a re-master of sorts. Just some wild speculation, but there is something else to keep in mind. NC Soft West doesn't appear to have any other current revenue generating products. In my opinion NC Soft West and ANet are likely now organized as a single business entity anyways, because, well they only seem to be one studio now. Well besides that one other studio making a mobile game (no one has heard a peep from them, are they still ok? hello?). My point being, if GW2 goes bust, likely NC Soft will have no other reason to continue operating in the US. NC Soft West would go bust with it. It would be quite a terrible mark on the company (although admittedly an inconsequential one, considering all the revenue from it's primary Asian operations and games). The fact that last years drama hasn't completely hollowed out the companies into a skeleton crew gives me hope that they still have plans for the western market and this game. That they are laying the groundwork for a future. Just keep in mind, that the period between that reckoning and this next expansion is not all that long. That there is no way this next expansion is going to be the total revelation of the company's future plans.

The next expansion is called "End of Dragons". And I think the name could also be a poetic end point to the current state of the game/company. So far the game has been about the dragonrise events. Dragons, have been this game. And this next expansion is the conclusion of everything this game has been about. I, with wild hope and imagination, hear that meaning the end of what the game has been. Because in order to confidently say that this is the 'end', one has to have a sound plan for a new beginning (or going into a happy retirement). Because of that, this next expansion is not what make or breaks the future of the game/franchise. What comes after it, is.

[Kichwas.7152]

This is kinda something you could say about 'the next expansion' of most MMOs...

Straying from the launch game is what they do. Each time they do it, some people like it and some don't. A lot of people come back, it fizzles out, and some of the remainder get nostalgia for the old version.

It wouldn't matter what the list you made looked like - it would still have this question.

For me the real test is whether or not Cantha will feel like Cantha but not be too much like GW1 Cantha.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@roughneck.8936 said:

Love the game since its inception,some of the best map designs out there ,especially HOT expansion which the layers and complexity paired with difficulty is simply gorgeous.All the the original designers and directors left the studio which compels me to ask a simple question, can it get better then HOT? In my opinion it hasn't.

Exactly. HoT has groundbreaking map design, good difficulty that forces casual to think what they trait and gear, and meaningful rewards that give it great replay value. Something PoF has struggled with. If they go more the HoT way, and less core Tyria/PoF we'll be golden.

[Zzik.5873]

To be honest I did like HoT and I did like PoF, so I'll probably like EoD. As long as they dont focus on elitist content like raid or pvp. And if I can get an golemancer elite spec for my main engineero-o-heavy breath-

[HotDelirium.7984]

The make or break will be the release of elite specs. If they release EOD and decide not to make those and instead use that dev time to create more events/AP rewards/story/raids/fractals etc I think it will fail. We LOVE playing new characters and new abilities. 5 weapon skills and 5 utility can only keep you going so far it just takes creativity and hard work to developed them and to not be afraid of any balancing issues later on down the line. They need to maintain this level of courage and innovation that created the last elite specs.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@"Obtena.7952" said:To be fair ... the only reason 'grinding' increased was because Anet added more stuff to do. It's funny that the counter complaint would be "need new content".

A lot of the achievements are objectively grindier now than they used to be. More importantly, a lot of these grindier achievements are now mastery point gates or directly tied to story meta completions. The biggest offender of these is Morale Breaker requiring a ridiculous amount of hours spent on the Cold War strike (FIFTY TIMES. It’s ridiculous). Or other things like “do all the light puzzles 3 times.” In previous years it would have been “do all the light puzzles 1 time.”

Obviously they’ve done grindy achievements in the past, but lately the sheer quantity of them is higher than ever and most of the old grindy ones were much more optional than the current ones

[VocalThought.9835]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:It's following the same direction it did when it launched.

No it's not. It Living World was greatly changed, along with th Trait System, Attributes, personality system. I think the trait system and living world was improved, but I wished they stayed the course with personality.

[Zok.4956]

@HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:They see what content is liked and how certain mechanics are accepted. That information is used to make further decisions.

No. They probably think they understand their customers, but they can only see what is happening in the game, but not why it is happening.They also never made any customer survey.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

There have been 'customer surveys'. Some players may not have been chosen to take part.

[Obtena.7952]

@VocalThought.9835 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:It's following the same direction it did when it launched.

No it's not. It Living World was greatly changed, along with th Trait System, Attributes, personality system. I think the trait system and living world was improved, but I wished they stayed the course with personality.

Those game changes do not indicate a direction shift for the game. If anything, the trait system was a change that aligned BETTER to appeal to casual players since it's more clear what choices are available and is simplified with the elimination of the trait points system. Not even sure what 'personality' system you are talking about that was changed.

[Fueki.4753]

@Obtena.7952 said:Not even sure what 'personality' system you are talking about that was changed.

They probably meant that ferocity/Dignity/Charm system that influenced your responses towards NPCs in some dialogues.

[Linken.6345]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Not even sure what 'personality' system you are talking about that was changed.

They probably meant that ferocity/Dignity/Charm system that influenced your responses towards NPCs in some dialogues.

Yea as in 1 out of 100 npcs or sum, really not used much at all =)

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I liked POF a lot and if EoD ends up similar quality that's all I care about.

[Omega.6801]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:To be fair ... the only reason 'grinding' increased was because Anet added more stuff to do. It's funny that the counter complaint would be "need new content".

A lot of the achievements are objectively grindier now than they used to be. More importantly, a lot of these grindier achievements are now mastery point gates or directly tied to story meta completions. The biggest offender of these is Morale Breaker requiring a ridiculous amount of hours spent on the Cold War strike (FIFTY TIMES. It’s ridiculous). Or other things like “do all the light puzzles 3 times.” In previous years it would have been “do all the light puzzles 1 time.”

Obviously they’ve done grindy achievements in the past, but lately the sheer quantity of them is higher than ever and most of the old grindy ones were much more optional than the current ones

this^^ is what really lit up some warnings signs for me this year/this LS. There used to be grindy stuff but not the way they do things with this LS. Morale Breaker is ridiculous. No matter how good the strike mission may be, it gets old if you want to do it 50 times. Same for other things like participating 10 times in a meta event, it used to be participate once for an achievement and then maybe participate 10 times for a second one but both contributed to the meta achievement.

[Sugar Min.5834]

I truly hope that this third expansion is a real expansion like HoT and PoF. Impress us and not give us another same old disappointing LWS-like contents only with bigger maps, a few new boring skins and same old new-yet-old strike mission, dungeon or raid. And please no more excessive grinding. Grinding is not content, it's coverup for lack of contents. If it's going to be more same old same old, it will definitely be a break for me. I won't quit totally but I will not want to spend money on this game any more. I will disappear for a long time, like before. In fact, i have already stopped playing for like 3 - 4 days now.

Reasons why I am still in this game when all my RL friends who were with me at launch (and we left the game together about a year after launch) left and never came back? Well, the reasons for me to continue are disappearing over time. I have been waiting for months and years for things to change for the better. But it only gets worse.

1. WvW. Too much nerfs, even the mount is not spared. We have NINE professions and yet for years only two is really ever needed in WvW. Yep, all is balanced. I played nothing but only WvW for more than two years, neglecting all pve stuff. Now, I totally stopped going into that mode since the last Warclaw nerfs.

2. No unnecessarily long and time gating grinding. At least not till they introduced Skyscale and locked many new stuff, like infusions, masteries skills and even emotes in long grinding contents. And they make shiny infusions and some skins super super super rare, driving their prices to impossible to reach levels. So rare that people are calling to raise the TP's selling price ceiling. You need to grind many hours every day and for months before you could even afford one.

3. Really pretty and shiny skins. But most are now locked in BLC chests with RNG at much lower drop rate than before.

4. The Lag.

I know I digressed.

[Obtena.7952]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Not even sure what 'personality' system you are talking about that was changed.

They probably meant that ferocity/Dignity/Charm system that influenced your responses towards NPCs in some dialogues.

Well, that wasn't changed or removed as he claimed then ... it's still there in it's original manifestation. It's debatable it ever even had an effect on your character in the first place.

[Fueki.4753]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Not even sure what 'personality' system you are talking about that was changed.

They probably meant that ferocity/Dignity/Charm system that influenced your responses towards NPCs in some dialogues.

Well, that wasn't changed or removed as he claimed then ... it's still there in it's original manifestation. It's debatable it ever even had an effect on your character in the first place.

Considering that you can no longer see the bars to know how "invested" you are in the categories and the dialogue stay the default ones, no matter how invested you are in one of the categories, this system can be counted as mostly removed, or at least disabled.

[WorldofBay.8160]

@lokh.2695 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:To be fair ... the only reason 'grinding' increased was because Anet added more stuff to do. It's funny that the counter complaint would be "need new content".

A lot of the achievements are objectively grindier now than they used to be. More importantly, a lot of these grindier achievements are now mastery point gates or directly tied to story meta completions. The biggest offender of these is Morale Breaker requiring a ridiculous amount of hours spent on the Cold War strike (FIFTY TIMES. It’s ridiculous). Or other things like “do all the light puzzles 3 times.” In previous years it would have been “do all the light puzzles 1 time.”

Obviously they’ve done grindy achievements in the past, but lately the sheer quantity of them is higher than ever and most of the old grindy ones were much more optional than the current ones

this^^ is what really lit up some warnings signs for me this year/this LS. There used to be grindy stuff but not the way they do things with this LS. Morale Breaker is ridiculous. No matter how good the strike mission may be, it gets old if you want to do it 50 times. Same for other things like participating 10 times in a meta event, it used to be participate once for an achievement and then maybe participate 10 times for a second one but both contributed to the meta achievement.

what?the tarir achievement needs 100 times.

is morale breaker necessary in any way? i've been doing quite well without it.

mastery point gates? where? i've got a huge bunch of HoT and PoF mastery points left over and didn't do any of the grinds. are icebrood points that grindy? haven't fully skilled that one yet but so far i've never run out of points without doing anything else than map completion and story. didn't even do metas. or are you talking about central tyrian mastery points? most of them are fractals and not grindy.

[Obtena.7952]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Not even sure what 'personality' system you are talking about that was changed.

They probably meant that ferocity/Dignity/Charm system that influenced your responses towards NPCs in some dialogues.

Well, that wasn't changed or removed as he claimed then ... it's still there in it's original manifestation. It's debatable it ever even had an effect on your character in the first place.

Considering that you can no longer see the bars to know how "invested" you are in the categories and the dialogue stay the default ones, no matter how invested you are in one of the categories, this system can be counted as

mostly

removed, or at least disabled.

Probably because it never did anything anyways. I mean ... to claim this is a change in direction for the game to remove a feature that did nothing in the first place ... grasping straws here.

[Omega.6801]

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@lokh.2695 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:To be fair ... the only reason 'grinding' increased was because Anet added more stuff to do. It's funny that the counter complaint would be "need new content".

A lot of the achievements are objectively grindier now than they used to be. More importantly, a lot of these grindier achievements are now mastery point gates or directly tied to story meta completions. The biggest offender of these is Morale Breaker requiring a ridiculous amount of hours spent on the Cold War strike (FIFTY TIMES. It’s ridiculous). Or other things like “do all the light puzzles 3 times.” In previous years it would have been “do all the light puzzles 1 time.”

Obviously they’ve done grindy achievements in the past, but lately the sheer quantity of them is higher than ever and most of the old grindy ones were much more optional than the current ones

this^^ is what really lit up some warnings signs for me this year/this LS. There used to be grindy stuff but not the way they do things with this LS. Morale Breaker is ridiculous. No matter how good the strike mission may be, it gets old if you want to do it 50 times. Same for other things like participating 10 times in a meta event, it used to be participate once for an achievement and then maybe participate 10 times for a second one but both contributed to the meta achievement.

what?the tarir achievement needs 100 times.

is morale breaker necessary in any way? i've been doing quite well without it.

mastery point gates? where? i've got a huge bunch of HoT and PoF mastery points left over and didn't do any of the grinds. are icebrood points that grindy? haven't fully skilled that one yet but so far i've never run out of points without doing anything else than map completion and story. didn't even do metas. or are you talking about central tyrian mastery points? most of them are fractals and not grindy.

Reading comprehension is a lost art....Yes, as I said, we had grindy achievements like the Tarir one and that one got old fast as well. It was just as "not necessary" as morale breaker is. No where did I say it was necessary to complete these achievements to play the game or experience the story. Icebrood points were a bit more scarce at the begining, but I think ANet has adressed the issue and there's now plenty so you don't need all of them to progress your masteries.

[Fueki.4753]

@WorldofBay.8160 said:are icebrood points that grindy?

Some of them, indeed are very grindy.If you want to unlock all Season 5 masteries, you will have to touch multiple of those grinds.

There are the six commendation grinds in Drizzlewoods, which all are very grindy and exact the same grind, just with different names.There is one mastery point for doing the north meta 10 times.There are two mastery point related to the Morale Breaker achievement. The first is unlocked after doing the Strike mission 10 (or maybe it even was 20) times, end the other one after 50 times.There also are several mastery points related to crafting, which causes quite a material grind, if you don't buy the materials. And if you buy them, you just shift the grind from materials to the money required.

And that's only from Episode 3 and 4.While I don't remember any of them, Episode 1 and 2 likely also had grindy mastery points.

Seeing as Champions doesn't seem to offer a new map (at least in Chapter 1/Episode 5), but possibly new masteries,all new mastery points (if there are going to be any) are likely to be unreasonably grindy as well.

@Obtena.7952 said:Probably because it never did anything anyways. I mean ... to claim this is a change in direction for the game to remove a feature that did nothing in the first place ... grasping straws here.Just because it doesn't impact much, doesn't mean it should be removed.It was a neat little system with its own charm.It's removal was pointless.It could have just stayed in the game, even if Arenanet doesn't do anything with it.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@lokh.2695 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:To be fair ... the only reason 'grinding' increased was because Anet added more stuff to do. It's funny that the counter complaint would be "need new content".

A lot of the achievements are objectively grindier now than they used to be. More importantly, a lot of these grindier achievements are now mastery point gates or directly tied to story meta completions. The biggest offender of these is Morale Breaker requiring a ridiculous amount of hours spent on the Cold War strike (FIFTY TIMES. It’s ridiculous). Or other things like “do all the light puzzles 3 times.” In previous years it would have been “do all the light puzzles 1 time.”

Obviously they’ve done grindy achievements in the past, but lately the sheer quantity of them is higher than ever and most of the old grindy ones were much more optional than the current ones

this^^ is what really lit up some warnings signs for me this year/this LS. There used to be grindy stuff but not the way they do things with this LS. Morale Breaker is ridiculous. No matter how good the strike mission may be, it gets old if you want to do it 50 times. Same for other things like participating 10 times in a meta event, it used to be participate once for an achievement and then maybe participate 10 times for a second one but both contributed to the meta achievement.

what?the tarir achievement needs 100 times.

is morale breaker necessary in any way? i've been doing quite well without it.

mastery point gates? where? i've got a huge bunch of HoT and PoF mastery points left over and didn't do any of the grinds. are icebrood points that grindy? haven't fully skilled that one yet but so far i've never run out of points without doing anything else than map completion and story. didn't even do metas. or are you talking about central tyrian mastery points? most of them are fractals and not grindy.

Story meta completion is locked for No Quarter by your choice of either Morale Breaker or Stormcaller Weapon Set. One is insanely grindy and the other is insanely expensive. This is quite disproportionate compared to all previous Story Meta Achievements.

Tarir achievement isn’t required for anything unless you want the title

[WorldofBay.8160]

@lokh.2695 said:

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@lokh.2695 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:To be fair ... the only reason 'grinding' increased was because Anet added more stuff to do. It's funny that the counter complaint would be "need new content".

A lot of the achievements are objectively grindier now than they used to be. More importantly, a lot of these grindier achievements are now mastery point gates or directly tied to story meta completions. The biggest offender of these is Morale Breaker requiring a ridiculous amount of hours spent on the Cold War strike (FIFTY TIMES. It’s ridiculous). Or other things like “do all the light puzzles 3 times.” In previous years it would have been “do all the light puzzles 1 time.”

Obviously they’ve done grindy achievements in the past, but lately the sheer quantity of them is higher than ever and most of the old grindy ones were much more optional than the current ones

this^^ is what really lit up some warnings signs for me this year/this LS. There used to be grindy stuff but not the way they do things with this LS. Morale Breaker is ridiculous. No matter how good the strike mission may be, it gets old if you want to do it 50 times. Same for other things like participating 10 times in a meta event, it used to be participate once for an achievement and then maybe participate 10 times for a second one but both contributed to the meta achievement.

what?the tarir achievement needs 100 times.

is morale breaker necessary in any way? i've been doing quite well without it.

mastery point gates? where? i've got a huge bunch of HoT and PoF mastery points left over and didn't do any of the grinds. are icebrood points that grindy? haven't fully skilled that one yet but so far i've never run out of points without doing anything else than map completion and story. didn't even do metas. or are you talking about central tyrian mastery points? most of them are fractals and not grindy.

Reading comprehension is a lost art....Yes, as I said, we had grindy achievements like the Tarir one and that one got old fast as well. It was just as "not necessary" as morale breaker is. No where did I say it was necessary to complete these achievements to play the game or experience the story. Icebrood points were a bit more scarce at the begining, but I think ANet has adressed the issue and there's now plenty so you don't need all of them to progress your masteries.

still i don't see where morale breaker is necessary.if you're talking about ice brood saga mastery points: that season is still in development, there are more points to come. it is your own choice if you try to complete all masteries in an unfinished state or if you wait for easy achievements.core tyria mastery points got some grindy achievements as well and you can't call that new.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054ice brood story meta achievements are in what way necessary to play the game?

[Omega.6801]

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@lokh.2695 said:

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@lokh.2695 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:To be fair ... the only reason 'grinding' increased was because Anet added more stuff to do. It's funny that the counter complaint would be "need new content".

A lot of the achievements are objectively grindier now than they used to be. More importantly, a lot of these grindier achievements are now mastery point gates or directly tied to story meta completions. The biggest offender of these is Morale Breaker requiring a ridiculous amount of hours spent on the Cold War strike (FIFTY TIMES. It’s ridiculous). Or other things like “do all the light puzzles 3 times.” In previous years it would have been “do all the light puzzles 1 time.”

Obviously they’ve done grindy achievements in the past, but lately the sheer quantity of them is higher than ever and most of the old grindy ones were much more optional than the current ones

this^^ is what really lit up some warnings signs for me this year/this LS. There used to be grindy stuff but not the way they do things with this LS. Morale Breaker is ridiculous. No matter how good the strike mission may be, it gets old if you want to do it 50 times. Same for other things like participating 10 times in a meta event, it used to be participate once for an achievement and then maybe participate 10 times for a second one but both contributed to the meta achievement.

what?the tarir achievement needs 100 times.

is morale breaker necessary in any way? i've been doing quite well without it.

mastery point gates? where? i've got a huge bunch of HoT and PoF mastery points left over and didn't do any of the grinds. are icebrood points that grindy? haven't fully skilled that one yet but so far i've never run out of points without doing anything else than map completion and story. didn't even do metas. or are you talking about central tyrian mastery points? most of them are fractals and not grindy.

Reading comprehension is a lost art....Yes, as I said, we had grindy achievements like the Tarir one and that one got old fast as well. It was just as "not necessary" as morale breaker is. No where did I say it was necessary to complete these achievements to play the game or experience the story. Icebrood points were a bit more scarce at the begining, but I think ANet has adressed the issue and there's now plenty so you don't need all of them to progress your masteries.

still i don't see where morale breaker is necessary.I'm not saying that it is. Never have, never will.if you're talking about ice brood saga mastery points: that season is still in development, there are more points to come. it is your own choice if you try to complete all masteries in an unfinished state or if you wait for easy achievements.As I have said, points were scarce at the beginning but are fine now I guess.core tyria mastery points got some grindy achievements as well and you can't call that new.As I said, core Tyria, HoT and PoF had it's share of grind, but the amount of grindy, "do x 1000 times" stuff has increased with recent releases imho.

[Obtena.7952]

@Fueki.4753 said:Just because it doesn't impact much, doesn't mean it should be removed.

Maybe that's true ... but that's not the question here. Poster was claiming personality system change was a game direction change ... that doesn't make sense considering how little impact it had on the game in the first place.