Ele downstate mist form

[TheDeafGuy.4519]

I think its op for defenders. I'd be rich if I received a dollar everytime I was denied a kill on an ele.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

i don't care big time about this, because it is actually possible to immobilize ele in downstate. then it cannot move in mist form.... there is a lot to nerf if we go that way.

just, rather buff everything. this nerferama will finally just lead to the EoD elite specs beeing absurdly broken in the beginning, u can bet on that. and not mainly bc they are, but because everything else gets tuned down more and more. and for ? reasons people agree with the nerferama, just because their own classes get wrecked now and then by one thing they saw.

this pathing-thing here could be done. but far more important are ranger pet revive nerfs, portal target nerfs for thief and mesmer so the keep portaling stops, as well as the phantom range on some classes, the endless runaway of thieves, rangers, warriors, mesmers etc.

[spectrito.8513]

So you're saying it's too hard to kill a ele ?Edit: where is the option to remove downed state from every class?

[Excursion.9752]

All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

[KeyOrion.9506]

Gonna say Mist Form ele's is one of the few classes that are able to escape through doors/gates after down state. I can't think of any other class that can physically do this.

[Firebeard.1746]

If you killed it, presumable you're attacking with a stronger force. If we nerf everything that is unique in a class then we're going to be playing potatoes with wet noodles. I don't play ele in WvW, but I think it's fine. It's not going to stop a good group from eventually taking down a wall and killing a commander. It's never been that for my small guild group. They also have the smallest HP pool in the freaking game.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Excursion.9752 said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

[Sobx.1758]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Excursion.9752 said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

Too bad it's about downstate, so vapor form, which evades the attacks.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Excursion.9752 said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

The part that makes it tricky is the invuln window in WvW. Delay the ability to enter downstate by 0.25s-0.5s and I would agree with you, but 'easily' is a bit hyperbolic.

[Justine.6351]

In the past I would agree to make a change to it but now?Anet: You guys want vaporform nerfed?Patch: Lavafont, reduced damage and duration, increased recharge, again...

[Grand Marshal.4098]

So people defend the point of not changing the mist form by saying "immob me and we are good".

What argument is that? You do realize you still have rez opportunity right? Other classes don't. You do realize you can go inside the tower and that many power classes may have very limited access to immob (warrior needs traits in tactics, assuming your hit on the downed ele doesnt hit the invlun window).

Mad cap from ele mains. Remove the ability to use gates in mist form, because warriors using Vengeance and going through a gate will kill them anyway, and thieves teleporting on top of the gate cannot enter it.

Even better, remove down state. It's a joke.

P.S. to the "gIt GuD" players. Sometimes you can't possibly focus on that one downed ele and immob them in the right window (assuming you got the immob to do so) when there are enemies around, siege from above and veterans respawning (usually t2+ objectives).

[Exzen.2976]

Of all the very broken things in WvW, fixing just ele downstate should be very very low on the agenda. All classes could use a downstate revamp.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Excursion.9752" said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

Too bad it's about downstate, so vapor form, which evades the attacks.

Vapor form indeed is immune to nearly all attacks, while active.

Vapor form does NOT cleanse the elementalist of any conditions incurred while downstate. This mean that any conditions applied AFTER the elementalist went downstate, remain.

It's even in the wiki:

Whereas during Vapor Form they only evade incoming attacks, remaining vulnerable to conditions already affecting them.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

So if say someone immobilized a downstate elementalist, vapor form does diddly squat for them.

As to the topic at hand, I don't care. Every class has their moments to shine, some slightly more in this case. Who cares?

[Sobx.1758]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Excursion.9752" said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

Too bad it's about downstate, so vapor form, which evades the attacks.

Vapor form indeed is immune to nearly all attacks, while active.

Vapor form does NOT cleanse the elementalist of any conditions incurred while downstate. This mean that any conditions applied AFTER the elementalist went downstate, remain.

It's even in the wiki:

Whereas during Vapor Form they only evade incoming attacks, remaining vulnerable to conditions already affecting them.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

So if say someone immobilized a downstate elementalist, vapor form does diddly squat for them.

As to the topic at hand, I don't care. Every class has their moments to shine, some slightly more in this case. Who cares?

I know how it works, but he specifically said that "misform is easly immobilized", while it isn't. If that's what he meant then I misunderstood what he was saying due to the way he chose to express it.

[Riba.3271]

Just nerf the passive stats that claim buff gives and eles are fine. They can't enjoy 200 extra power, precision, vitality and toughness while afking near portals and walls. So they need might (and swift) from their party.

Make it like 40 each stat and nerf presence of the keep to only 50% increase so it would be 40% of old number (40) near towers and camps and 30% of old number near keeps (60). Or just remove stats from it completely and make them non combat buffs like out of combat speed and -siege costs

[Hesione.9412]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Excursion.9752" said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

Too bad it's about downstate, so vapor form, which evades the attacks.

Vapor form indeed is immune to nearly all attacks, while active.

Vapor form does NOT cleanse the elementalist of any conditions incurred while downstate. This mean that any conditions applied AFTER the elementalist went downstate, remain.

It's even in the wiki:

Whereas during Vapor Form they only evade incoming attacks, remaining vulnerable to conditions already affecting them.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

So if say someone immobilized a downstate elementalist, vapor form does diddly squat for them.

As to the topic at hand, I don't care. Every class has their moments to shine, some slightly more in this case. Who cares?

On that wiki page: "They evade all attacks during its duration, even attacks that Launch, the only form of Crowd Control that affects downed players."

My reading of this one sentence is that you can't immobilise the vapour form, nor can you add any more damage to the condi effects on them. However, the informatin on the definition of "attack" may be too unclear as to whether condi is considered an attack: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack

[Zyreva.1078]

@Hesione.9412 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Excursion.9752" said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

Too bad it's about downstate, so vapor form, which evades the attacks.

Vapor form indeed is immune to nearly all attacks, while active.

Vapor form does NOT cleanse the elementalist of any conditions incurred while downstate. This mean that any conditions applied AFTER the elementalist went downstate, remain.

It's even in the wiki:

Whereas during Vapor Form they only evade incoming attacks, remaining vulnerable to conditions already affecting them.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

So if say someone immobilized a downstate elementalist, vapor form does diddly squat for them.

As to the topic at hand, I don't care. Every class has their moments to shine, some slightly more in this case. Who cares?

On that wiki page: "They evade all attacks during its duration, even attacks that Launch, the only form of Crowd Control that affects downed players."

My reading of this one sentence is that you can't immobilise the vapour form, nor can you add any more damage to the condi effects on them. However, the informatin on the definition of "attack" may be too unclear as to whether condi is considered an attack:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack

It is not possible to immobilize an ele while he is already in vapour form, but if an immobilize is applied beforehand, it will prevent the ele from moving while in vapour form (that's if you are somehow able to hit the ele between invuln frame and instant vapour form).

[Grand Marshal.4098]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Excursion.9752" said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

Too bad it's about downstate, so vapor form, which evades the attacks.

Vapor form indeed is immune to nearly all attacks, while active.

Vapor form does NOT cleanse the elementalist of any conditions incurred while downstate. This mean that any conditions applied AFTER the elementalist went downstate, remain.

It's even in the wiki:

Whereas during Vapor Form they only evade incoming attacks, remaining vulnerable to conditions already affecting them.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

So if say someone immobilized a downstate elementalist, vapor form does diddly squat for them.

As to the topic at hand, I don't care. Every class has their moments to shine, some slightly more in this case. Who cares?

On that wiki page: "They evade all attacks during its duration, even attacks that Launch, the only form of Crowd Control that affects downed players."

My reading of this one sentence is that you can't immobilise the vapour form, nor can you add any more damage to the condi effects on them. However, the informatin on the definition of "attack" may be too unclear as to whether condi is considered an attack:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack

It is not possible to immobilize an ele while he is already in vapour form, but if an immobilize is applied beforehand, it will prevent the ele from moving while in vapour form (that's if you are somehow able to hit the ele between invuln frame and instant vapour form).

So we are talking about an immobilize time frame which initiates before the enemy gets downed, lasts long enough to be in effect while the ele uses vapor form and is maintained for enough time as to not allow vapor form ele to go through a portal, which may be only a couple of steps away.

I can see Ranger, Thief and possibly Engi doing that. Actually, I can only see Ranger applying enough immob for enough time.

Even if you immobilize before they enter vapor form, the immob can run out before vapor form runs out.

Conclusion: no class should be given the advantage to possibly escape a situation while downed. Downed means a second chance in combat, not a reset mechanic. No profession should have that. No idea why Ele should be treated differently. I have yet to see constructive counterarguments to this.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Hesione.9412 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Excursion.9752" said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

Too bad it's about downstate, so vapor form, which evades the attacks.

Vapor form indeed is immune to nearly all attacks, while active.

Vapor form does NOT cleanse the elementalist of any conditions incurred while downstate. This mean that any conditions applied AFTER the elementalist went downstate, remain.

It's even in the wiki:

Whereas during Vapor Form they only evade incoming attacks, remaining vulnerable to conditions already affecting them.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

So if say someone immobilized a downstate elementalist, vapor form does diddly squat for them.

As to the topic at hand, I don't care. Every class has their moments to shine, some slightly more in this case. Who cares?

On that wiki page: "They evade all attacks during its duration, even attacks that Launch, the only form of Crowd Control that affects downed players."

My reading of this one sentence is that you can't immobilise the vapour form, nor can you add any more damage to the condi effects on them. However, the informatin on the definition of "attack" may be too unclear as to whether condi is considered an attack:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack

Please read again what I wrote. You seem to have missed my in detail explanation of how an immobilize effect can be applied. I wrote it TWICE.

Hint: an elementalist being downstate is NOT automatically in Vapor form.

@Grand Marshal.4098 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Excursion.9752" said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

Too bad it's about downstate, so vapor form, which evades the attacks.

Vapor form indeed is immune to nearly all attacks, while active.

Vapor form does NOT cleanse the elementalist of any conditions incurred while downstate. This mean that any conditions applied AFTER the elementalist went downstate, remain.

It's even in the wiki:

Whereas during Vapor Form they only evade incoming attacks, remaining vulnerable to conditions already affecting them.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

So if say someone immobilized a downstate elementalist, vapor form does diddly squat for them.

As to the topic at hand, I don't care. Every class has their moments to shine, some slightly more in this case. Who cares?

On that wiki page: "They evade all attacks during its duration, even attacks that Launch, the only form of Crowd Control that affects downed players."

My reading of this one sentence is that you can't immobilise the vapour form, nor can you add any more damage to the condi effects on them. However, the informatin on the definition of "attack" may be too unclear as to whether condi is considered an attack:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack

It is not possible to immobilize an ele while he is already in vapour form, but if an immobilize is applied beforehand, it will prevent the ele from moving while in vapour form (that's if you are somehow able to hit the ele between invuln frame and instant vapour form).

So we are talking about an immobilize time frame which initiates before the enemy gets downed, lasts long enough to be in effect while the ele uses vapor form and is maintained for enough time as to not allow vapor form ele to go through a portal, which may be only a couple of steps away.

Sounds very fancy when you write it like that. When one actually does some minor consideration of what this actually means, it becomes way less fancy.

Vapor form lasts 3 seconds, and that is not counting the delay of going in and coming back out, which makes this much closer to 2-2.5 seconds. Now let's also factor for the actual distance which needs covering at regular movement speed, and even at a just partial immobilize, the elementalist can cover at best around 300 units. Which means he must have gone down EXACTLY in front of that gate.

@Grand Marshal.4098 said:I can see Ranger, Thief and possibly Engi doing that. Actually, I can only see Ranger applying enough immob for enough time.

Are you intentionally leaving out one of the best instant range aoe immobilize skills/traits?https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Surge on earth. Which is actually being run in WvW on builds. Or at least it was run until elementalist was degraded to a heal bot.

@Grand Marshal.4098 said:Even if you immobilize before they enter vapor form, the immob can run out before vapor form runs out.

Yes it can, so? For all intents and purposes, a partial immobilize is more than enough to get the job done. It sufficient to hold in place an elementalist which is downed on a wall as to not get out of aoe range. It is sufficient to immobilize an elementalist which is literally not right on top of a gate portal.

@Grand Marshal.4098 said:Conclusion: no class should be given the advantage to possibly escape a situation while downed. Downed means a second chance in combat, not a reset mechanic. No profession should have that. No idea why Ele should be treated differently. I have yet to see constructive counterarguments to this.

We could get into a huge discussion why other classes have more base health, more base armor, more XYZ. Vapor form is useful in WvW. Other downstate skills are more useful in other content.

[Hesione.9412]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Excursion.9752" said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

Too bad it's about downstate, so vapor form, which evades the attacks.

Vapor form indeed is immune to nearly all attacks, while active.

Vapor form does NOT cleanse the elementalist of any conditions incurred while downstate. This mean that any conditions applied AFTER the elementalist went downstate, remain.

It's even in the wiki:

Whereas during Vapor Form they only evade incoming attacks, remaining vulnerable to conditions already affecting them.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

So if say someone immobilized a downstate elementalist, vapor form does diddly squat for them.

As to the topic at hand, I don't care. Every class has their moments to shine, some slightly more in this case. Who cares?

On that wiki page: "They evade all attacks during its duration, even attacks that Launch, the only form of Crowd Control that affects downed players."

My reading of this one sentence is that you can't immobilise the vapour form, nor can you add any more damage to the condi effects on them. However, the informatin on the definition of "attack" may be too unclear as to whether condi is considered an attack:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack

Please read again what I wrote. You seem to have missed my in detail explanation of how an immobilize effect can be applied. I wrote it TWICE.

Hint: an elementalist being downstate is NOT automatically in Vapor form.

Please read the poll, and therefore the topic of the thread.

Hint: it is specifically about mist-form.

[Kovu.7560]

Mist Form: Yes, keep as is.(Downstate) Vapor Form: No, change.

~ Kovu

[Cyninja.2954]

@Hesione.9412 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"Excursion.9752" said:All down states are not created equal. If they were then I would say keep it the same. But since they are not, I think denied entry is the way to go. The basically have zero risk to run out in the middle of a zerg that is bashing down a door or a wall by a door. They can free cast from wall with little fear of being pulled because if they do fall the mist right back in after they go down.

It does not bother me that much but it is somewhat annoying how they have a get out of respawn free card.

no they can't. There is something in this game called 'cc'. Mistform is easily immobed.

Too bad it's about downstate, so vapor form, which evades the attacks.

Vapor form indeed is immune to nearly all attacks, while active.

Vapor form does NOT cleanse the elementalist of any conditions incurred while downstate. This mean that any conditions applied AFTER the elementalist went downstate, remain.

It's even in the wiki:

Whereas during Vapor Form they only evade incoming attacks, remaining vulnerable to conditions already affecting them.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

So if say someone immobilized a downstate elementalist, vapor form does diddly squat for them.

As to the topic at hand, I don't care. Every class has their moments to shine, some slightly more in this case. Who cares?

On that wiki page: "They evade all attacks during its duration, even attacks that Launch, the only form of Crowd Control that affects downed players."

My reading of this one sentence is that you can't immobilise the vapour form, nor can you add any more damage to the condi effects on them. However, the informatin on the definition of "attack" may be too unclear as to whether condi is considered an attack:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack

Please read again what I wrote. You seem to have missed my in detail explanation of how an immobilize effect can be applied. I wrote it TWICE.

Hint: an elementalist being downstate is NOT automatically in Vapor form.

Please read the poll, and therefore the topic of the thread.

Hint: it is specifically about mist-form.

Right back to you. Read in context. Topic creator meant Vapor form, not Mist form.

The complaint about being denied a kill from downstate kinda gives it away (especially since the poll specifically mentions "from downstate").

Which in this context would not matter since Mist form to DOES NOT CLEANSE. Meaning here too, if an immobilize is applied before activating Mist form, the elementalist would remain rooted in place.

[Gorani.7205]

I am not sure what to post: a "Let it go" meme, because for over eight years we get threads like that when someone gets angry for an Ele to escape into a portal. Or perhaps the idea to nerf the Warrior's Vengence (who can come back out of downstate, run through the portal and get resurrected by allies inside ... or to nerf Thief's Shadow Escape, who can teleport into the portal.

[steki.1478]

Idk why people are so focused on immobs when you can simply drop a line that vapor form cant evade or walk through.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

I'm quite amazed to be honest. Out of all broken stuff in WvW, you complain about downed skill, which is pepega and doesn't guarantee you anything at all.The amount of random condies that fly around(broken stuff no.1 that need fixes/deletion) which will immobilize Ele is gonna happen like 70% times of encounters?There are also skill that prevent passing through like guardians staff skill 5, which downed Ele can't cross unless he have stab, which 99% won't have.And let's not forget about another kitten stuff that is no LoS on Barrage(broken stuff no.whatever that needs fix), which can hit Ele's inside objective, so if there isn't anyone beside that downed Ele, he's gonna die.Ele, the squishiest class in the entire game and currently one of the weakest.