Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

[kharmin.7683]

1 minute ago, Malitias.8453 said:

Except there's no race..

But there has to be some ... thing ... in which others are engaged so that one can actually declare victory.  Otherwise, this entire exercise is moot.

[Malitias.8453]

1 minute ago, kharmin.7683 said:

But there has to be some ... thing ... in which others are engaged so that one can actually declare victory.  Otherwise, this entire exercise is moot.

Let's call it a parade.

[kharmin.7683]

Just now, Malitias.8453 said:

Let's call it a parade.

How does one win a parade?

[yann.1946]

22 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

It isn't a spectrum. Or at least it isn't as broad of a spectrum as many have tried to "evolve" the phrase to be. For "pay to win" to be a spectrum on the level you imply one would have to consider winning anything to be on a spectrum as well. Which if winning was on a spectrum then technically there wouldn't be "losers".

 

Winning and losing is binary, like it or not. If someone wins something, someone loses something. Thats it. I explained this before; for winning to be a variable then there must inherently be a competition or something being competed over in which to incur winning or losing as achievable variables.

 

This is not really true, someone "winning" doesn't necessitate a loser (atleast in the traditional sense.) For example you can win in a cooperative/ solo game. You can win pandemic for example, and their are no losers their.

[Malitias.8453]

Just now, kharmin.7683 said:

How does one win a parade?

By getting the most attention and adoration, I assume.

[Ashantara.8731]

A final thought: No, it is not pay2win, because there is nothing at the store that you need to buy to be able to play through the game and become as good as it as others (which would be the definition for "pay2win"). No, converting money into gems doesn't count, either, because visual effect infusions and legendaries are mostly cosmetical, too, as they don't give you an advantage over others (ascended gear, for instance, has the same stats as legendary gear; plus, others had to play the game as well to get their sets, so there is nothing the game withholds from you that you can't get by simply playing it).

 

You can pay for more convenience or for cosmetics at the store, but everything else is available to everyone by playing the game.

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[kharmin.7683]

40 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

This is not really true, someone "winning" doesn't necessitate a loser (atleast in the traditional sense.) For example you can win in a cooperative/ solo game. You can win pandemic for example, and their are no losers their.

I disagree.  If one wins versus a pandemic, then one "beats" the disease so there is a winner and a loser, even if that loser is something more abstract.  The pandemic did not defeat you; you defeated it.  If you win in a solo game, then you have defeated your opponent which, in this case, would be the game.  You win, the game did not.

 

[Obtena.7952]

48 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

This is not really true, someone "winning" doesn't necessitate a loser (atleast in the traditional sense.) For example you can win in a cooperative/ solo game. You can win pandemic for example, and their are no losers their.

That's called the participation award and everyone wins ... because no one wins. So is there is a 'fight' here where GW2 is P2W or not? Is participating where everyone wins qualify as a P2W scenarion? Honestly, I think people need to tone down their sensitivities to purchasing things in an MMO. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[DeanBB.4268]

If GW2 is P2W, then I'm definitely doing something wrong. I have all the convenience items from the gem shop, but still can't kill another player in WvW.

 

Do you think it is too late to get a refund on my salvage-o-matic, since it obviously is defective?

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I disagree.  If one wins versus a pandemic, then one "beats" the disease so there is a winner and a loser, even if that loser is something more abstract.  The pandemic did not defeat you; you defeated it.  If you win in a solo game, then you have defeated your opponent which, in this case, would be the game.  You win, the game did not.

 

Yes one beats the games. But that definition applies to every part of any game. 

 

Also your linked definition also says succeed with effort as definition, and you would need to go very abstract to find the loser their. 

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's called the participation award and everyone wins ... because no one wins. So is there is a 'fight' here where GW2 is P2W or not? Is participating where everyone wins qualify as a P2W scenarion? Honestly, I think people need to tone down their sensitivities to purchasing things in an MMO. 

That's not a participation award though, you can lose a solo game. 

 

I also was merely fixing a problem in a given definition. (that one can only win when another player is involved). 

Not making a statement about what is p2w

[KryTiKaL.3125]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 Honestly, I think people need to tone down their sensitivities to purchasing things in an MMO. 

This is probably one of the few times you and I will ever agree on something.

 

That point of view is also why I honestly believe a certain level of envy definitely plays a part, as well as the hypercompetitive nature of people these days. Its why if you load into practically any Battle Royale game after its been out for like 2 to 3 months and you just wanna casually play through it; all you'll probably get hit with in the match is people sweatlording and tryharding as if they are going to win an actual money prize for winning the match. You see it in GW2 Unranked sPvP matches. People getting so absolutely upset if things start to not be in favor of their team even though Unranked has literally no elo rating or ranking system. Winning or losing literally does not matter in it.

 

The envy part you can just see in the entitlement mentality we also see far, far more often. Essentially it boils down to "They were able to get something I don't have" and it applies to not just people having money to purchase said thing, but also apparently even if they see someone earn it through many, many hours of gameplay. "Well that isn't fair, they can play more hours a day than I can".

 

At a certain point it just gets ridiculous and we've hit that point.

[yann.1946]

10 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

This is probably one of the few times you and I will ever agree on something.

 

That point of view is also why I honestly believe a certain level of envy definitely plays a part, as well as the hypercompetitive nature of people these days. Its why if you load into practically any Battle Royale game after its been out for like 2 to 3 months and you just wanna casually play through it; all you'll probably get hit with in the match is people sweatlording and tryharding as if they are going to win an actual money prize for winning the match. You see it in GW2 Unranked sPvP matches. People getting so absolutely upset if things start to not be in favor of their team even though Unranked has literally no elo rating or ranking system. Winning or losing literally does not matter in it.

 

The envy part you can just see in the entitlement mentality we also see far, far more often. Essentially it boils down to "They were able to get something I don't have" and it applies to not just people having money to purchase said thing, but also apparently even if they see someone earn it through many, many hours of gameplay. "Well that isn't fair, they can play more hours a day than I can".

 

At a certain point it just gets ridiculous and we've hit that point.

 

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's called the participation award and everyone wins ... because no one wins. So is there is a 'fight' here where GW2 is P2W or not? Is participating where everyone wins qualify as a P2W scenarion? Honestly, I think people need to tone down their sensitivities to purchasing things in an MMO. 

Honestly about the p2w thing i think i disagree.

I think it would be way more productive to just define p2w as all real world currency buyable upgrades to accounts. And then switch the discussion to what p2w is acceptable.

For example lets just say expacs are p2w and then argue why they are acceptable.

 

This whole tread is a great example because people are getting stuck in semantic arguments about the definition of p2w instead of the way more interesting point about what forms of buyables are acceptable.

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

This whole tread is a great example because people are getting stuck in semantic arguments about the definition of p2w instead of the way more interesting point about what forms of buyables are acceptable.

OK ... but this thread wasn't ever intended to be a discussion about what forms of buyables were acceptable to begin with. The OP literally gaslit everyone with a completely open ended question INTENDED to make people argue about their subjective definitions going nowhere. 

 

Again, what are 'acceptable' buyables is subjective. That discussion goes nowhere, because there are literally people that think fashion can be 'won'. I mean, P2W threads aren't valuable because a player is already going to convince themselves whether a game crosses their personal P2W threshold or not and how they react to it. No one is waiting for a thread to convince them of these things. 

[Malitias.8453]

Without a competition and a jury, fashion can not be "won", true.
Goals can be achieved and rewards can be earned.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what most ppl in the "it's p2w"-camp are getting at is that for a lot of people the goal of looking good is sooner or later the real chase as there isn't a gear treadmill like in other MMOs.
When one of the main goals being presented by the games design can be achieved with real money, they refer to it as pay to win.
Reaching the goal=winning.
Another aspect is the optical representation of in-game achievements. Usually the flashier equipment is associated with overcoming hard challenges in order to get them, or at least that's how I remember most RPGs.
So some people expect a correlation between "lumen", so to speak, and the players accomplishments.
When you introduce cosmetics into a cash-shop, which look as flashy as those earnable in-game, this correlation and the status associated with it no longer exists.
I really don't have an answer for the question other than "it doesn't affect PvP".

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

How does one win a parade?

By not losing yourself in it, i guess.

[Hesione.9412]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except it's not an opinion that you aren't going to factually show GW2 is P2W because there is a 'fashion war'. Again ... if there is a war, who are you fighting? Why are YOU the one that defines the winning condition for that fight? There isn't a war; the idea that some war exists to complain about GW2 being P2W is completely absurd. 

And, when there are fashion competitions in-game, the rules are specifically that no outfits are allowed.

 

The only time I have seen P2W used is when:

- it's a PvP style game, there are daily/weekly competitions and the winners get something tangible in-game, and your team (which may be entirely AI) has a much easier time beating the opposing players by buying items, better AI characters, etc.

- you get a number of lives in a game, and when your lives run out, you're locked out from playing  for a period of time - unless you pay for more lives.

 

As you, and I, and others have been pointing out, GW2 has none of these elements.

[Vayne.8563]

10 hours ago, Kondor.2904 said:

You win the fashion war.

In games with vertical progression gear = win. In games with horizontal progression skins = win. Sure, that can be subjective, but then again anything can be subjective. Still doesn't change the fact that skins is the only thing in guild wars  that can differentiate you from others. So from that point of view, one can say gw2 does look like p2w.

Gee if only you could farm gold and buy anything in the cash shop with in game gold. 

[fixit.7189]

is gw2 pay to win? nah, you can earn most things just by playing. well, playing it like a job: gw2 played free is insanely grindy. what it really is, is a game for whales. this is one of the most whaliest game i have ever played. money will skip literally years of grind with the simple use of a CC so it's really just pay to save a kitten load of time when it comes right down to it.

Edited May 21, 2021 by fixit.7189

[Linken.6345]

28 minutes ago, fixit.7189 said:

is gw2 pay to win? nah, you can earn most things just by playing. well, playing it like a job: gw2 played free is insanely grindy. what it really is, is a game for whales. this is one of the most whaliest game i have ever played. money will skip literally years of grind with the simple use of a CC so it's really just pay to save a kitten load of time when it comes right down to it.

So its pay to not play?

[fixit.7189]

3 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

So its pay to not play?

 

pretty much...play 100 hours for 500g in SW or buy it for 1 hour of work. no wonder people choose the latter.

[yann.1946]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... but this thread wasn't ever intended to be a discussion about what forms of buyables were acceptable to begin with. The OP literally gaslit everyone with a completely open ended question INTENDED to make people argue about their subjective definitions going nowhere. 

My point is that the definition should not be subjective. Because people are arguing about whether their subjective definition is objectivity correct through the framing of the question.

 

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, what are 'acceptable' buyables is subjective. That discussion goes nowhere, because there are literally people that think fashion can be 'won'. I mean, P2W threads aren't valuable because a player is already going to convince themselves whether a game crosses their personal P2W threshold or not and how they react to it. No one is waiting for a thread to convince them of these things. 

A discussion can be useful without reaching a consensus or convincing people.  

Also their will be people swayed, even if they are not actively trying to be.

 

[Vayne.8563]

10 hours ago, fixit.7189 said:

 

pretty much...play 100 hours for 500g in SW or buy it for 1 hour of work. no wonder people choose the latter.

My money is on the odds that most people don't choose the latter. The vast majority I'd wager.

[Imba.9451]

11 hours ago, fixit.7189 said:

is gw2 pay to win? nah, you can earn most things just by playing. well, playing it like a job: gw2 played free is insanely grindy. what it really is, is a game for whales. this is one of the most whaliest game i have ever played. money will skip literally years of grind with the simple use of a CC so it's really just pay to save a kitten load of time when it comes right down to it.

The ability of earning things ingame does not take away from the ability of spending real mones to unlock progression in a game.

 

P2W is an easily applicable stamp on so many games nowadays. Instead of using teeth and claw to fight this, it would be much better to discuss wether certain purchases are reasonable or not. Everything else is missing the point entirely.

[Linken.6345]

 

8 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

The ability of earning things ingame does not take away from the ability of spending real mones to unlock progression in a game.

 

P2W is an easily applicable stamp on so many games nowadays. Instead of using teeth and claw to fight this, it would be much better to discuss wether certain purchases are reasonable or not. Everything else is missing the point entirely.

Yea better to start that discussion if its reasonable or not.

Instead of throwing your waving arms in the air and yelling p2w

Edited May 22, 2021 by Linken.6345