perm stealth

[Skada.1362]

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.

the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible

. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

This thread is placed in the WVW forums. I also mentioned WVW a few times in my posts, I thought we all were on the same page in that its WVW balancing thats being discussed. #nerfshadowarts #makethiefplayersnotnoobsagain

You can't complain about someone else bringing up PvP balance when you want WvW changes based around the role of roaming which has next to no impact on a server's success in a matchup. The game mode should mostly be balanced around larger scale fights. If a build excels at fighting 1v1, or 1v2-3, I don't see why that needs to be the focus of the balance team.

What DOES need to be the focus of the balance team are classes and builds that bring too much or too little to large scale fights. People like you can complain all you want that you run into thieves using "broken" builds all the time roaming around the map. And us roamers alternatively can complain that our favorite classes in many cases have no great builds for large scale fights. It's a double edged sword. I've come to accept that the only way I can play thief in large scale fights is on lame, dumb dumb builds that are incredibly one dimensional and borderline useless compared to other classes. Not a big deal.

As a matter of fact, I would argue the existence of a strong thief roaming build is beneficial to the game mode. If you're blob's tail/stragglers keep getting torn up by a thief or two, then it actually requires you to strategize and regroup instead of just blobbing wherever you want without a care. Sorry not sorry for punishing you large scale players for needing 20 other people to hold your hand. Not my fault you're walking loot bags.

I'm not complaining that OP brought up PVP balance, i just pointed out that this is a wvw thread, in the wvw forum, discussing wvw balance, specifically permanent stealth which shadow arts (SA) is responsible for along with the d/p weapon set. The title of the thread is named "perm stealth" just to be clear.

"People like me" you mean thief mains with over 9k hours roaming around? Which me and most of my guildies are. As far as large scale fights go, i can literally use any thief build in game and have fun and drop people, it dont matter if its core s/d or a "proper" staff daredevil build. Sucks to hear that you feel useless in those scenarios. Keep defending one of the games most oppressive and disliked builds, just know that I know why you do it ;).Not only does shadow arts bring a real kitten experience for a ton of players it also carries wayyyy to hard and hardly punishes SA thieves for bad plays. Hell you dont even have to land steal/swipe to still get massive value (3 sec stealth omegalul).

It will be interesting to see who the real thief mains are after SA (hopefully) gets nerfed. It's time to get rid of the training wheels.

Well my bad, I didn't mean to assume that you weren't a thief main with over 9k hours roaming. That's roaming... solo? Right? Not with those guildies of yours?

I'm gonna be honest, if Anet decides to nerf SA, that's fine. I'm still going to play thief and try all sorts of different builds, like I do now. But people like you come on here acting like a single thief build is dominating the WvW scene to such a degree that it's oppressing other classes. I simply don't see it. It comes down to a skill issue. Bad players are gonna lose 100% of their fights against a competent thief, and competent players are going put up a good fight and beat competent thieves.

Oh btw, I really don't care about your boast of 9k hours. I know plenty of players who have played just as long as that, if not longer, who are absolutely terrible. Hours played does not equate to game knowledge or skill. Every player has different floors and ceilings. I would even go so far as to say that most players have a low floor, and a low ceiling, and that they plateau in a pretty bad spot skill wise. But the problem can't possibly be a personal skill related issue. It's gotta be that one class that's ruining the game for everyone!

Yeah lets just ignore those hundreds (probably more) of players who absolutley hate the so called "perma stealth phenomenon". "But people like you come on here acting like a single thief build is dominating the WvW scene to such a degree that it's oppressing other classes. I simply don't see it." - Tell that mesmers, power eles, all kinds of necros except condi core, warriors and many more. There is a reason why the majority of roamers are thieves, can you guess why? 9/10 of em run SA builds because its easy, convenient, rewarding and (too) powerful in conjunction with the d/p set, deceptions and various traits.I've said all i wanted to say in this thread now so Ill just leave with this - You claim the thief class would "die" if SA got nerfed, I strongly disagree, its just not true. The thief class would remain strong with good build diversity. SA d/p core/dare/de are nub builds that carries bad players making bad plays and shadow arts is the big culprit. Have a good one.

[godz raiden.2631]

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.

the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible

. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

This thread is placed in the WVW forums. I also mentioned WVW a few times in my posts, I thought we all were on the same page in that its WVW balancing thats being discussed. #nerfshadowarts #makethiefplayersnotnoobsagain

You can't complain about someone else bringing up PvP balance when you want WvW changes based around the role of roaming which has next to no impact on a server's success in a matchup. The game mode should mostly be balanced around larger scale fights. If a build excels at fighting 1v1, or 1v2-3, I don't see why that needs to be the focus of the balance team.

What DOES need to be the focus of the balance team are classes and builds that bring too much or too little to large scale fights. People like you can complain all you want that you run into thieves using "broken" builds all the time roaming around the map. And us roamers alternatively can complain that our favorite classes in many cases have no great builds for large scale fights. It's a double edged sword. I've come to accept that the only way I can play thief in large scale fights is on lame, dumb dumb builds that are incredibly one dimensional and borderline useless compared to other classes. Not a big deal.

As a matter of fact, I would argue the existence of a strong thief roaming build is beneficial to the game mode. If you're blob's tail/stragglers keep getting torn up by a thief or two, then it actually requires you to strategize and regroup instead of just blobbing wherever you want without a care. Sorry not sorry for punishing you large scale players for needing 20 other people to hold your hand. Not my fault you're walking loot bags.

I'm not complaining that OP brought up PVP balance, i just pointed out that this is a wvw thread, in the wvw forum, discussing wvw balance, specifically permanent stealth which shadow arts (SA) is responsible for along with the d/p weapon set. The title of the thread is named "perm stealth" just to be clear.

"People like me" you mean thief mains with over 9k hours roaming around? Which me and most of my guildies are. As far as large scale fights go, i can literally use any thief build in game and have fun and drop people, it dont matter if its core s/d or a "proper" staff daredevil build. Sucks to hear that you feel useless in those scenarios. Keep defending one of the games most oppressive and disliked builds, just know that I know why you do it ;).Not only does shadow arts bring a real kitten experience for a ton of players it also carries wayyyy to hard and hardly punishes SA thieves for bad plays. Hell you dont even have to land steal/swipe to still get massive value (3 sec stealth omegalul).

It will be interesting to see who the real thief mains are after SA (hopefully) gets nerfed. It's time to get rid of the training wheels.

Well my bad, I didn't mean to assume that you weren't a thief main with over 9k hours roaming. That's roaming... solo? Right? Not with those guildies of yours?

I'm gonna be honest, if Anet decides to nerf SA, that's fine. I'm still going to play thief and try all sorts of different builds, like I do now. But people like you come on here acting like a single thief build is dominating the WvW scene to such a degree that it's oppressing other classes. I simply don't see it. It comes down to a skill issue. Bad players are gonna lose 100% of their fights against a competent thief, and competent players are going put up a good fight and beat competent thieves.

Oh btw, I really don't care about your boast of 9k hours. I know plenty of players who have played just as long as that, if not longer, who are absolutely terrible. Hours played does not equate to game knowledge or skill. Every player has different floors and ceilings. I would even go so far as to say that most players have a low floor, and a low ceiling, and that they plateau in a pretty bad spot skill wise. But the problem can't possibly be a personal skill related issue. It's gotta be that one class that's ruining the game for everyone!

Yeah lets just ignore those hundreds (probably more) of players who absolutley hate the so called "perma stealth phenomenon". "But people like you come on here acting like a single thief build is dominating the WvW scene to such a degree that it's oppressing other classes. I simply don't see it." - Tell that mesmers, power eles, all kinds of necros except condi core, warriors and many more.I've said all i wanted to say in this thread now so Ill just leave with this - You claim the thief class would "die" if SA got nerfed, I strongly disagree, its just not true. The thief class would remain strong with good build diversity. SA d/p core/dare/de are nub builds that carries bad players making bad plays and shadow arts is the big culprit. Have a good one.

Yeah man, every thief build other than the one you're using is busted and "nub."

The thief class wouldn't die if SA got nerfed, but it would take a significant enough hit and force thieves into other builds that won't be playstyles some thieves enjoy, and those players will feel much more limited. That's not good build diversity my dude, that's literally shrinking options. You've been purposefully obtuse in every single argument you've made, and quite often nonsensical with "points" that contradict yourself.

Anyway, I'd say it's been nice chatting with you. But I'm not a liar, and you're terrible at this. Have fun.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Skada.1362 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.

the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible

. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

This thread is placed in the WVW forums. I also mentioned WVW a few times in my posts, I thought we all were on the same page in that its WVW balancing thats being discussed. #nerfshadowarts #makethiefplayersnotnoobsagain

The reason I brought up the PvP balance ought to be so obvious that I don't have to explain it, but apparently I do so here goes. Half of the changes to traits that you wanted have already been implemented in PvP, and they do nothing to limit the annoyance of players that dislike thieves, nor are they a limit on the strength of thief in that game mode (rather it's the nerfing of deadly arts and the continuing poor state of acrobatics that contributed to people taking shadow arts).

We can then see that it is unlikely that the changes you want will have the desired effect in WvW, considering they have already been implemented in PvP and have failed to change anything. If you're dismissing that line of reasoning simply because it's not WvW balance, failing to see that the changes you want are already in effect there, then I would question if you're really in a position to be suggesting balance changes.

Have a nice day :)

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

Every thief stealth thread:

OP: "perma stealth is stupid and as a mechanic should not exist"

Thief main: "LUL, no real thief uses stealth in combat, stealth is totally useless and is a death trap to use in a fight.....But if you DO nerf stealth that I don't use, you need to give thief sustain buffs and dmg buffs"

Me thinking to myself: "But if stealth is useless and not used in combat by real thieves....Why do you need to be compensated for something you (and other thieves) don't use anyway?"

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:Every thief stealth thread:

OP: "perma stealth is stupid and as a mechanic should not exist"

Thief main: "LUL, no real thief uses stealth in combat, stealth is totally useless and is a death trap to use in a fight.....But if you DO nerf stealth that I don't use, you need to give thief sustain buffs and dmg buffs"

Me thinking to myself: "But if stealth is useless and not used in combat by real thieves....Why do you need to be compensated for something you (and other thieves) don't use anyway?"

Who says its useless and not used in combat? Its very useful for ambushes, dropping target, and for disengaging when pressure is to much. Its thiefs main defensive tool along side evades on some builds ie dp. Typical thief complainer, see's one thiefs opinion on such and applies it to all thief players lol.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:Every thief stealth thread:

OP: "perma stealth is stupid and as a mechanic should not exist"

Thief main: "LUL, no real thief uses stealth in combat, stealth is totally useless and is a death trap to use in a fight.....But if you DO nerf stealth that I don't use, you need to give thief sustain buffs and dmg buffs"

Me thinking to myself: "But if stealth is useless and not used in combat by real thieves....Why do you need to be compensated for something you (and other thieves) don't use anyway?"

Who says its useless and not used in combat? Its very useful for ambushes, dropping target, and for disengaging when pressure is to much. Its thiefs main defensive tool along side evades on some builds ie dp. Typical thief complainer, see's one thiefs opinion on such and applies it to all thief players lol.

Those comments are all in this thread and every thief thread, there is someone asking for 500% dmg buffs for nerfing stealth in this thread alone.

What did I complain about? I pointed out a trend in the topics, 90% of this thread is back and forth about nothing, one trying to justify perma stealth by acting like stealth is not an extremely powerful mechanic and the other side wants stealth deleted or nerfed in a way that would kill other builds that are not capable of perma stealth as well as other classes because they have never played them.

Thief is my favorite class to fight, as most are 100% trash. I have given actual suggestions to combat spam game play (you even quoted me saying it was the only reasonable suggestion), such as breaking stealth when an attack is missed, blinded, evaded, blocked etc etc as well as not removing dmg floaters when you hit someone in stealth so you don't have to keep combat logs open, after all, miss and evaded indicators still work on stealthed players.

[Skada.1362]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.

the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible

. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

This thread is placed in the WVW forums. I also mentioned WVW a few times in my posts, I thought we all were on the same page in that its WVW balancing thats being discussed. #nerfshadowarts #makethiefplayersnotnoobsagain

The reason I brought up the PvP balance ought to be so obvious that I don't have to explain it, but apparently I do so here goes. Half of the changes to traits that you wanted have already been implemented in PvP, and they do nothing to limit the annoyance of players that dislike thieves, nor are they a limit on the strength of thief in that game mode (rather it's the nerfing of deadly arts and the continuing poor state of acrobatics that contributed to people taking shadow arts).

We can then see that it is unlikely that the changes you want will have the desired effect in WvW, considering they have already been implemented in PvP and have failed to change anything. If you're dismissing that line of reasoning simply because it's not WvW balance, failing to see that the changes you want are already in effect there, then I would question if you're really in a position to be suggesting balance changes.

Have a nice day :)

Thank you Kit for explaining why you went off topic! :)The changes made to PVP did have an impact, and a ton of players welcomed it. Less perma stealth decap rotations is a good thing. Now if only we could get the same changes made to WVW... These days in ranked alot of thieves will run s/d rifle DE with mercy, binding shadow and step for some really good+1 ability and most i've seen run it with DA. DA isnt as terrible as people in this thread make it out to be, its a strong traitline. Regarding acrobatics id like to see IR and HTC getting a reduced cd to 60-90 sec instead of the 300 sec they have atm, and a reduced ICD on upper hand.. other than that i think acro is fine. If SA got the PVP treatment it would absolutley have the desired effect in WVW.

You can question my position to suggest balance all you want, just as I question your biased views on the matter, but at the end of the day people with an objective ability will see SA for what it is. Its a traitline that is very overtuned in WVW.

Have a super fantastic day! <:o)--l---<

[saerni.2584]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:Every thief stealth thread:

OP: "perma stealth is stupid and as a mechanic should not exist"

Thief main: "LUL, no real thief uses stealth in combat, stealth is totally useless and is a death trap to use in a fight.....But if you DO nerf stealth that I don't use, you need to give thief sustain buffs and dmg buffs"

Me thinking to myself: "But if stealth is useless and not used in combat by real thieves....Why do you need to be compensated for something you (and other thieves) don't use anyway?"

Who says its useless and not used in combat? Its very useful for ambushes, dropping target, and for disengaging when pressure is to much. Its thiefs main defensive tool along side evades on some builds ie dp. Typical thief complainer, see's one thiefs opinion on such and applies it to all thief players lol.

There's one person who always repeats that stealth in combat is useless. It's not. But people take the one person's very strong opinion as though it represents the community.

Two things contributed to SA being relatively better. One is the aforementioned nerfs to other trait lines making SA a better choice. Another is that SA was reworked and buffed to make it stronger but also to have trade offs between stealth on steal and cleansing pulsing in stealth. They also added stealth on heal for more flexibility in stealth builds for the heal taken. These changes were made because Anet felt SA under performed at the time.

The criticisms of SA almost always fall into criticisms of SA mechanics or criticisms of GW2 stealth as a whole. Now, it may be beating a dead horse to say, but gutting SA and reworking thief survivability or gutting the stealth mechanic and reworking thief and multiple other professions is a lot of work for a game this old. It also runs contrary to the game design Anet came up with. People like to forget how much work they are asking for in these kinds of threads.

As for myself, I use stealth to access stealth attacks. I also use frequent (not permanent) stealth extensively to avoid taking damage but also to pressure my opponents with damage. Someone fighting me will probably experience this as brief windows of visibility during which they are taking damage and moments of invisibility where I do my best to make it hard for them to guess where I am (stealth is not invulnerability after all).

To someone less experienced it may seem like I am "perma stealth" because sometimes my stealth can last (depending on need/circumstances/opportunity) for 10-20 seconds at a time. Thats not permanent but people do make that mistake.

[TwiceDead.1963]

Only problem with stealth is the stacking of it, imo.I think it's more important to nerf D/P and balance from there. If you do so you'll quickly notice all the other weaknesses in a thiefs kit and why they are so reliant upon it, so it'll be easier to notice the problems and make changes accordingly. A lot of the thieves balance issues are rooted in this kit because it's so goddamn overloaded in utility without sacrificing a sliver of damage.

@"saerni.2584" said:To someone less experienced it may seem like I am "perma stealth" because sometimes my stealth can last (depending on need/circumstances/opportunity) for 10-20 seconds at a time. Thats not permanent but people do make that mistake.

Dude... Come on, by GW2 standards that might as well be permanent, considering how fricking much can happen in a single second in the frantic fights in this game.
By definition, no it doesn't last forever but that's just arguing semantics instead of the topic. It's enough time for many cooldowns to reset, if not the fight itself. (Yes I am aware sometimes thieves are forced to do this because they have little to no staying power).

Just for the record, full immortality is also stupid. Warriors, Guards and Rangers are notorious for chaining that shit for 5+ seconds at a time so that's not any better than thieves chaining stealth. At least you can KILL a thief who is stealthed, even though you have to make some guesses to make it happen.

Used to love playing S/D... Just doesn't seem to achieve much anymore.

[godz raiden.2631]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:Every thief stealth thread:

OP: "perma stealth is stupid and as a mechanic should not exist"

Thief main: "LUL, no real thief uses stealth in combat, stealth is totally useless and is a death trap to use in a fight.....But if you DO nerf stealth that I don't use, you need to give thief sustain buffs and dmg buffs"

Me thinking to myself: "But if stealth is useless and not used in combat by real thieves....Why do you need to be compensated for something you (and other thieves) don't use anyway?"

Who says its useless and not used in combat? Its very useful for ambushes, dropping target, and for disengaging when pressure is to much. Its thiefs main defensive tool along side evades on some builds ie dp. Typical thief complainer, see's one thiefs opinion on such and applies it to all thief players lol.

Those comments are all in this thread and every thief thread, there is someone asking for 500% dmg buffs for nerfing stealth in this thread alone.

What did I complain about? I pointed out a trend in the topics, 90% of this thread is back and forth about nothing, one trying to justify perma stealth by acting like stealth is not an extremely powerful mechanic and the other side wants stealth deleted or nerfed in a way that would kill other builds that are not capable of perma stealth as well as other classes because they have never played them.

Thief is my favorite class to fight, as most are 100% trash. I have given actual suggestions to combat spam game play (you even quoted me saying it was the only reasonable suggestion), such as breaking stealth when an attack is missed, blinded, evaded, blocked etc etc as well as not removing dmg floaters when you hit someone in stealth so you don't have to keep combat logs open, after all, miss and evaded indicators still work on stealthed players.

Oh I was probably the one who asked for a 500% damage buff. I thought that was obviously sarcastic/a joke. My bad, I gotta remember the type of people I’m dealing with here. Sorry brother.

[Sobx.1758]

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.

the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible

. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

This thread is placed in the WVW forums. I also mentioned WVW a few times in my posts, I thought we all were on the same page in that its WVW balancing thats being discussed. #nerfshadowarts #makethiefplayersnotnoobsagain

You can't complain about someone else bringing up PvP balance when you want WvW changes based around the role of roaming which has next to no impact on a server's success in a matchup. The game mode should mostly be balanced around larger scale fights. If a build excels at fighting 1v1, or 1v2-3, I don't see why that needs to be the focus of the balance team.

What DOES need to be the focus of the balance team are classes and builds that bring too much or too little to large scale fights. People like you can complain all you want that you run into thieves using "broken" builds all the time roaming around the map. And us roamers alternatively can complain that our favorite classes in many cases have no great builds for large scale fights. It's a double edged sword. I've come to accept that the only way I can play thief in large scale fights is on lame, dumb dumb builds that are incredibly one dimensional and borderline useless compared to other classes. Not a big deal.

As a matter of fact, I would argue the existence of a strong thief roaming build is beneficial to the game mode. If you're blob's tail/stragglers keep getting torn up by a thief or two, then it actually requires you to strategize and regroup instead of just blobbing wherever you want without a care. Sorry not sorry for punishing you large scale players for needing 20 other people to hold your hand. Not my fault you're walking loot bags.

I'm not complaining that OP brought up PVP balance, i just pointed out that this is a wvw thread, in the wvw forum, discussing wvw balance, specifically permanent stealth which shadow arts (SA) is responsible for along with the d/p weapon set. The title of the thread is named "perm stealth" just to be clear.

"People like me" you mean thief mains with over 9k hours roaming around? Which me and most of my guildies are. As far as large scale fights go, i can literally use any thief build in game and have fun and drop people, it dont matter if its core s/d or a "proper" staff daredevil build. Sucks to hear that you feel useless in those scenarios. Keep defending one of the games most oppressive and disliked builds, just know that I know why you do it ;).Not only does shadow arts bring a real kitten experience for a ton of players it also carries wayyyy to hard and hardly punishes SA thieves for bad plays. Hell you dont even have to land steal/swipe to still get massive value (3 sec stealth omegalul).

It will be interesting to see who the real thief mains are after SA (hopefully) gets nerfed. It's time to get rid of the training wheels.

Well my bad, I didn't mean to assume that you weren't a thief main with over 9k hours roaming. That's roaming... solo? Right? Not with those guildies of yours?

I'm gonna be honest, if Anet decides to nerf SA, that's fine. I'm still going to play thief and try all sorts of different builds, like I do now. But people like you come on here acting like a single thief build is dominating the WvW scene to such a degree that it's oppressing other classes. I simply don't see it. It comes down to a skill issue. Bad players are gonna lose 100% of their fights against a competent thief, and competent players are going put up a good fight and beat competent thieves.

Oh btw, I really don't care about your boast of 9k hours. I know plenty of players who have played just as long as that, if not longer, who are absolutely terrible. Hours played does not equate to game knowledge or skill. Every player has different floors and ceilings. I would even go so far as to say that most players have a low floor, and a low ceiling, and that they plateau in a pretty bad spot skill wise. But the problem can't possibly be a personal skill related issue. It's gotta be that one class that's ruining the game for everyone!

Yeah lets just ignore those hundreds (probably more) of players who absolutley hate the so called "perma stealth phenomenon".

Yeah lets also ignore the fact that there's not a small number of players that will just use "perma stealth" as an excuse any time they lose. I'd be surprised if you didn't receive a pm flaming you for "playing perma stealth class" after the fight in which you didn't even have more than 1 stack of stealth at the time (and didn't directly chain it one-after-another to achieve a similar result).Doesn't mean there are no actual valid complaints, but just saying "many people cry!" is a weird take -of course they do, but a lot of them don't even know what they're talking about and just look for excuses. One way or another, the perma stealth can be thrown out of the game without completely gutting it like some people on this forum would do with their great ideas.

Also agree with the post you've answered to about just throwing bare "hours spent on a character!" as any sort of valid argument. Meaning of that claim varies so heavily between the individual players that you might as well completely forget about it as any sort of "better listen to me" bait.

...on the other hand I also don't think there's a need for the d/p blind to last 5 sec.

[XenesisII.1540]

lmao this thread.I dunno why you guys bother.Stealth is a broken mechanic, it has been for 9 years, and it will never change.Thieves are trying to protect their shtuff cause they don't want to be mirage'd nerf to the ground, there will be no compromise in arguments, or do you like talking to brick walls? The bad ones will tell you they need stealth to survive, the good ones will continue to wreck and laugh in the background.And there's nothing you can do or say that will change this.Can't wait for the next thief elite spec to be announced, they'll be actual perma stealth "longbow" user that can hit you anywhere on the map from spawn I'm sure, they'll finally have a place in zergs.Carry on with the useless arguments.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Skada.1362 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Skada.1362 said:nerfing stealth will not ruin the thief class, it will put it in line. thief damage is already great, so is the overall defense and utilities.

the thieves in this thread that are defending the current state of thief, especially SA builds, just want to keep playing the game in the easiest, most forgiving way possible

. try playing other classes and duel competent SA DEs and daredevils and see how fun and engaging it is. its straight up disgusting, toxic and obnoxious lol.

Seems like it's mostly been the thief mains in this thread offering detailed and realistic suggestions involving stealth and problematic kitsand also in regards to stealth duration from smoke fields. I don't agree with every point of their suggestions and some of them conflict a little and I might even change my mind on my own input, but worth the re-read. You don't have to flat out lie to make a point, most thieves probably agree with some of your points even if thankfully not all of them.

where in my post are there lies? playing shadow arts, especially with daredevil/DE is one of, if not the most, safe way to play wvw. you can dissapear/escape from any threat at any point with the click of a button or 2. having this ability while still having the option to be incredibly lethal is simply busted and i feel like thief mains wont fully realize it until they start playing around with alts and then running into competent SA thieves. staff daredevil is absolutley fine for larger scale if put in a group with some support, SD, both core and daredevil is great.. hell even rifle/SD DE works. d/p with DA is still great both for core and daredevil. if anyone in this thread is lying its the many thief mains claiming a nerf to shadow arts would "ruin" the class which is omega BS.

You need to stop this line of argument, because it isn't what good thief players are after. Good thieves do NOT want to ball up in a zerg and dodge around with a staff. Thief mains generally like strong roaming builds and builds that let them be lethal to idiots clouding around a blob fight. Thieves are not designed to be in the thick of it. You should not be balancing a class for WvW explicitly around the concept of larger scale fights anyway. That's a ridiculous notion that you need to drop, immediately.

You know what would ruin the class? Limiting build diversity for thieves even MORE than it already is. There's a reason so many thieves run the same traits and the same weapon sets.

Hint: It's because everything else has been nerfed into the ground.

I simply pointed out that staff is available for those who wish to play in larger scale, and no, its not useless. I also pointed out that the s/d set is great, and so is d/p with DA. But i guess you go all defensive because you feel threatened by my statements, realizing that you cannot play thief without shadow arts. it is what it is

D/p would not be good if you removed stealth lol. And I wouldn't say s/d is great. It's playable, but I can't remember the last time I saw s/d performing that great against competent players. Also staff is poopoo. It's clunky, skills are telegraphed and easy to dodge. It's only viable in large scale because DD has a ton of dodges, cool. You don't accomplish anything useful while using it, but it looks cool bounding all over the battlefield I guess. Neat.

I don't feel threatened by your statements my guy, and I've played thief with and without SA. Acting like thief is the only class that has to rely on a strong trait line is awfully cute btw. Also, if one trait line performs better than others because the others are absolute garbage, shouldn't you be arguing to buff other trait lines? And since your answer should be yes, my next question is, how would you buff acrobatics in particular?

I never said remove stealth. I said nerf shadow arts. d/p has stealth, dagger off hand has stealth, DA can offer more stealth with an extra stolen ability from thieves and various things in wvw such as guards, ambient creatures and more, plenty of utility skills offer stealth, deadeye offers stealth. You see... thieves will have plenty of stealth options available to them even if shadow arts gets nerfed. If the other traitlines got buffed to shadow arts levels thieves would be the best class in MMORPG history. The thief class is a strong class and will remain a strong class with nerfs to stealth duration via shadow arts. Like i said earlier, you are one of those typical players defending something obviously OP just so you can keep ez mode cheesin it. All classes have em.

tldr nerf concealing restoration stealth duration, hidden thief stealth duration, cloaked in shadows blind duration and shadow rejuv healing interval from 1 to 3 sec. oh and shadowshot blind duration from 5 to 2 sec gg /thread.

Considering that concealing restoration and hidden thief have durations of 0.5s and 0.25s respectively in PvP, and given that cloaked in shadows and shadow's rejuvenation compete for the same slot, and given that people STILL cry about them, your changes are likely to change almost nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

This thread is placed in the WVW forums. I also mentioned WVW a few times in my posts, I thought we all were on the same page in that its WVW balancing thats being discussed. #nerfshadowarts #makethiefplayersnotnoobsagain

The reason I brought up the PvP balance ought to be so obvious that I don't have to explain it, but apparently I do so here goes. Half of the changes to traits that you wanted have already been implemented in PvP, and they do nothing to limit the annoyance of players that dislike thieves, nor are they a limit on the strength of thief in that game mode (rather it's the nerfing of deadly arts and the continuing poor state of acrobatics that contributed to people taking shadow arts).

We can then see that it is unlikely that the changes you want will have the desired effect in WvW, considering they have already been implemented in PvP and have failed to change anything. If you're dismissing that line of reasoning simply because it's not WvW balance, failing to see that the changes you want are already in effect there, then I would question if you're really in a position to be suggesting balance changes.

Have a nice day :)

Thank you Kit for explaining why you went off topic! :)The changes made to PVP did have an impact, and a ton of players welcomed it. Less perma stealth decap rotations is a good thing. Now if only we could get the same changes made to WVW... These days in ranked alot of thieves will run s/d rifle DE with mercy, binding shadow and step for some really good+1 ability and most i've seen run it with DA. DA isnt as terrible as people in this thread make it out to be, its a strong traitline. Regarding acrobatics id like to see IR and HTC getting a reduced cd to 60-90 sec instead of the 300 sec they have atm, and a reduced ICD on upper hand.. other than that i think acro is fine. If SA got the PVP treatment it would absolutley have the desired effect in WVW.

You can question my position to suggest balance all you want, just as I question your biased views on the matter, but at the end of the day people with an objective ability will see SA for what it is. Its a traitline that is very overtuned in WVW.

Have a super fantastic day! <:o)--l---<

That's fair enough then, I wasn't actually aware of people running S/D DE in ranked PvP and thought most were still running SA D/P daredevil, hence my comment on the lack of impact those changes made. I've been running S/D DE with DA in WvW for a little while for duels and small scale so I can see the logic in playing that, like you said it's a strong build. My main concern in threads like these is that the majority of people that want nerfs usually jump to nerfing the hell out of everything without thought, if those changes you suggested have in fact made a positive difference then I apologise for assuming you were coming from that position ^^

As far as SA goes, I wouldn't mind all that much if shadow arts does get nerfed and I pretty much expect it to happen. In fact I started playing DA S/D DE because I expected those PvP changes to have worked their way to WvW before now, but the devs seem content to do minor changes what with the expac looming. I'd personally prefer to see more targeted changes around smoke combo fields, as I think that will result in better build diversity for thief overall while also being more effective at bringing stealth builds into line, but that's my two cents.

[Casualconnoisseur.5936]

Stealth (and Deadeye in particular) in WvW is pretty much the epitome of uninteractive and awful game design in PvP.Not that anything will change about it tho.Veterans will keep defending unfun game mechanics like they have for years and most new players will probably continue to just move on to other games.

[saerni.2584]

@TwiceDead.1963 said:Only problem with stealth is the stacking of it, imo.I think it's more important to nerf D/P and balance from there. If you do so you'll quickly notice all the other weaknesses in a thiefs kit and why they are so reliant upon it, so it'll be easier to notice the problems and make changes accordingly. A lot of the thieves balance issues are rooted in this kit because it's so kitten overloaded in utility without sacrificing a sliver of damage.

@"saerni.2584" said:To someone less experienced it may seem like I am "perma stealth" because sometimes my stealth can last (depending on need/circumstances/opportunity) for 10-

20 seconds

at a time. Thats not permanent but people do make that mistake.

Dude... Come on, by GW2 standards that might as well be permanent, considering how fricking much can happen in a single second in the frantic fights in this game.

By definition, no it doesn't last forever but that's just arguing semantics instead of the topic. It's enough time for many cooldowns to reset, if not the fight itself. (Yes I am aware sometimes thieves are forced to do this because they have little to no staying power).

Just for the record, full immortality is also stupid. Warriors, Guards and Rangers are notorious for chaining that kitten for 5+ seconds at a time so that's not any better than thieves chaining stealth. At least you can KILL a thief who is stealthed, even though you have to make some guesses to make it happen.

Used to love playing S/D... Just doesn't seem to achieve much anymore.

So if I burn all my cool downs to get at most 20 seconds of stealth and get left with nothing...that is permanent.

Got it.

[godz raiden.2631]

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:Stealth (and Deadeye in particular) in WvW is pretty much the epitome of uninteractive and awful game design in PvP.Not that anything will change about it tho.Veterans will keep defending unfun game mechanics like they have for years and most new players will probably continue to just move on to other games.

Is this literally a post suggesting that thieves should be nerfed if only because veteran thieves make new players feel poopy?

You know what else is uninteractive? When a ranger opens up on you with a longbow from 40 light years away and then once you put him on the back foot he goes invulnerable for 20 years.

And no, before you say it, I don’t have problems with rangers. The good ones are fun to fight, the majority of rangers are bad because the class attracts weirdos who want a pet friend in a video game. (I’m joking mostly, you rangers keep doing do you).

[kash.9213]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:lmao this thread.I dunno why you guys bother.Stealth is a broken mechanic, it has been for 9 years, and it will never change.Thieves are trying to protect their shtuff cause they don't want to be mirage'd nerf to the ground, there will be no compromise in arguments, or do you like talking to brick walls? The bad ones will tell you they need stealth to survive, the good ones will continue to wreck and laugh in the background.And there's nothing you can do or say that will change this.Can't wait for the next thief elite spec to be announced, they'll be actual perma stealth "longbow" user that can hit you anywhere on the map from spawn I'm sure, they'll finally have a place in zergs.Carry on with the useless arguments.

That's a lot of wrong though, people seem fine compromising in this thread, and thieves aren't trying to protect their shtuff and have been the ones to give any kind of realistic ideas to change anything. Not sure why people keep claiming that point that you just made when it's easily debunked in the very thread they, and you, are posting in.

Thief does fine in zergs already but I'm curious what you think permanent stealth would do for them in those fights or even how it would be maintained while still getting anything done. Long bow sounds fun though.

Edit: no sooner did I post that and someone else comes in with the same kind of tired soundbites.

@Casualconnoisseur.5936 said:Stealth (and Deadeye in particular) in WvW is pretty much the epitome of uninteractive and awful game design in PvP.Not that anything will change about it tho.Veterans will keep defending unfun game mechanics like they have for years and most new players will probably continue to just move on to other games.

[Caedmon.6798]

Yall run in groups of Minimum 10 to 50 with forever everything but no no that solo thief with stealth is the problem in wvw L-M-A-O.

[TwiceDead.1963]

@saerni.2584 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:Only problem with stealth is the stacking of it, imo.I think it's more important to nerf D/P and balance from there. If you do so you'll quickly notice all the other weaknesses in a thiefs kit and why they are so reliant upon it, so it'll be easier to notice the problems and make changes accordingly. A lot of the thieves balance issues are rooted in this kit because it's so kitten overloaded in utility without sacrificing a sliver of damage.

@saerni.2584 said:To someone less experienced it may seem like I am "perma stealth" because sometimes my stealth can last (depending on need/circumstances/opportunity) for 10-

20 seconds

at a time. Thats not permanent but people do make that mistake.

Dude... Come on, by GW2 standards that might as well be permanent, considering how fricking much can happen in a single second in the frantic fights in this game.

By definition, no it doesn't last forever but that's just arguing semantics instead of the topic. It's enough time for many cooldowns to reset, if not the fight itself. (Yes I am aware sometimes thieves are forced to do this because they have little to no staying power).

Just for the record, full immortality is also stupid. Warriors, Guards and Rangers are notorious for chaining that kitten for 5+ seconds at a time so that's not any better than thieves chaining stealth. At least you can KILL a thief who is stealthed, even though you have to make some guesses to make it happen.

Used to love playing S/D... Just doesn't seem to achieve much anymore.

So if I burn all my cool downs to get at most 20 seconds of stealth and get left with nothing...that is permanent.

Got it.

I am talking to a wall. Sweet, good to know not much has changed around here.

[XenesisII.1540]

@kash.9213 said:That's a lot of wrong though, people seem fine compromising in this thread, and thieves aren't trying to protect their shtuff and have been the ones to give any kind of realistic ideas to change anything. Not sure why people keep claiming that point that you just made when it's easily debunked in the very thread they, and you, are posting in.

Sure Thief ambassador, we feel better already know you're on our side!Not that anything will change, because lolnet loves stealth more than you thieves do.So again, pointless arguments.

Thief does fine in zergs already

Good to know, I don't ever want to hear another complaint about thieves not being welcomed in zergs then!

but I'm curious what you think permanent stealth would do for them in those fights or even how it would be maintained while still getting anything done. Long bow sounds fun though.

That was a... joke...

[kash.9213]

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@kash.9213 said:That's a lot of wrong though, people seem fine compromising in this thread, and thieves aren't trying to protect their shtuff and have been the ones to give any kind of realistic ideas to change anything. Not sure why people keep claiming that point that you just made when it's easily debunked in the very thread they, and you, are posting in.

Sure Thief ambassador, we feel better already know you're on our side!Not that anything will change, because lolnet loves stealth more than you thieves do.So again, pointless arguments.

Thief does fine in zergs already

Good to know, I don't ever want to hear another complaint about thieves not being welcomed in zergs then!

but I'm curious what you think permanent stealth would do for them in those fights or even how it would be maintained while still getting anything done. Long bow sounds fun though.

That was a... joke...

• Thief does fine in zergs, doesn't mean they'll get an invite.
• If everything you say is ridiculous and with the same over dramatic tone, how am I supposed to know if you're joking? Joking or not, Longbow would be fun.
• You should take it easy, I am on your side, I don't like perma stealth either. It's a good thing it's not a big deal but I still don't like long duration in combat stealth as a mechanic and I have given suggestion for DE at least to be reworked some to not stealth on dodge and to focus more on the Kneel stance in regards to traits and Elite skill.
• These arguments aren't useless, they've gotten thief nerfed plenty of times before. Maybe the wrong things have been nerfed and real problems persist, but these arguments are still worth having? Even if thief suggestions that address what people are complaining about are always ignored because people are too busy complaining or aren't happy unless a class gets everything about them trashed except what's causing problems in the first place.

[godz raiden.2631]

@Caedmon.6798 said:Yall run in groups of Minimum 10 to 50 with forever everything but no no that solo thief with stealth is the problem in wvw L-M-A-O.

The best part is they have builds for their blob activities but when they get ganked by a thief while being specced for large scale it’s an issue.

Most complaints about thief can probably be traced back to zerglings who strayed to far from their pack. These guys just don’t want someone taking advantage of them running back to their Zerg.

[Shining One.1635]

@godz raiden.2631 said:You know what else is uninteractive? When a ranger opens up on you with a longbow from 40 light years away and then once you put him on the back foot he goes invulnerable for 20 years.Do you encounter a lot of Soulbeasts running Take Root, Signet of Stone, and Black Bear for a total of 20 years 13 seconds? I can't remember encountering any.

[godz raiden.2631]

@Shining One.1635 said:

@godz raiden.2631 said:You know what else is uninteractive? When a ranger opens up on you with a longbow from 40 light years away and then once you put him on the back foot he goes invulnerable for 20 years.Do you encounter a lot of Soulbeasts running Take Root, Signet of Stone, and Black Bear for a total of

20 years

13 seconds? I can't remember encountering any.

I was obviously exaggerating. Just like how people who complain about perm stealth thieves are generally exaggerating.

[saerni.2584]

@TwiceDead.1963 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:Only problem with stealth is the stacking of it, imo.I think it's more important to nerf D/P and balance from there. If you do so you'll quickly notice all the other weaknesses in a thiefs kit and why they are so reliant upon it, so it'll be easier to notice the problems and make changes accordingly. A lot of the thieves balance issues are rooted in this kit because it's so kitten overloaded in utility without sacrificing a sliver of damage.

@saerni.2584 said:To someone less experienced it may seem like I am "perma stealth" because sometimes my stealth can last (depending on need/circumstances/opportunity) for 10-

20 seconds

at a time. Thats not permanent but people do make that mistake.

Dude... Come on, by GW2 standards that might as well be permanent, considering how fricking much can happen in a single second in the frantic fights in this game.

By definition, no it doesn't last forever but that's just arguing semantics instead of the topic. It's enough time for many cooldowns to reset, if not the fight itself. (Yes I am aware sometimes thieves are forced to do this because they have little to no staying power).

Just for the record, full immortality is also stupid. Warriors, Guards and Rangers are notorious for chaining that kitten for 5+ seconds at a time so that's not any better than thieves chaining stealth. At least you can KILL a thief who is stealthed, even though you have to make some guesses to make it happen.

Used to love playing S/D... Just doesn't seem to achieve much anymore.

So if I burn all my cool downs to get at most 20 seconds of stealth and get left with nothing...that is permanent.

Got it.

I am talking to a wall. Sweet, good to know not much has changed around here.

It's not just semantics though. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of what's being described. That's why I gave you a flippant reply.

You can actually have perma stealth, and it is legitimately annoying, but most of the time the complaints aren't about perma anything. It's a person who is mad about Shadow Refuge duration or the stealth stacking from one Smoke Screen being blasted by Cluster Bomb or any other way a thief gets more than three seconds of stealth.

We shouldn't accept people making balance suggestions or complaints based on inaccuracies. It isn't a conversation or reasoned debate at that point it's just a series of strawman logical fallacies.