Condi is overtuned in smal scale and at same time usless in zergs.

[Sansar.1302]

Condi is overtuned in smal scale and at same time usless in zergs.How can this be fixed?

[Strider.7849]

Take condi removal in your build

[Sansar.1302]

@Strider.7849 said:Take condi removal in your build

got condi removal on weapon swap sigis + on heal (traited) and ult + 2utility skillsit can hold it off 4 a while then i die when all is on cd.full maurader hitting these condi tanks 4 under 2 k critt with maul at same time eating burn tics of 3k+ or torment 4 about same if not higer or both at same time

[XenesisII.1540]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Cleansing

There's like a dozen runes that reduce or remove conditions.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Loaf_of_Saffron_Breadhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Lemongrass_Poultry_Souphttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sweet_Bean_Bun

Every class has condition removal skills or traits.Not every single piece of gear or runes or sigils or skills or traits needs to be dedicated strictly to dps, it's wvw not pve.

Cleansing is overtuned in zergs because massive amount of cleanses available from support specs, plus recycling through purity of purpose, this should be tweaked, but it won't, too many rely on it to carry their groups.

[Sansar.1302]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Cleansing

There's like a dozen runes that reduce or remove conditions.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Loaf_of_Saffron_Breadhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Lemongrass_Poultry_Souphttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sweet_Bean_Bun

Every class has condition removal skills or traits.Not every single piece of gear or runes or sigils or skills or traits needs to be dedicated strictly to dps, it's wvw not pve.

Cleansing is overtuned in zergs because massive amount of cleanses available from support specs, plus recycling through purity of purpose, this should be tweaked, but it won't, too many rely on it to carry their groups.

alredy running 4 skill with cleanse and Superior_Sigil_of_Cleansing use foods too.its too little

[Faolain.2374]

@Sansar.1302 said:

got condi removal on weapon swap sigis + on heal (traited) and ult + 2utility skillsit can hold it off 4 a while then i die when all is on cd.full maurader hitting these condi tanks 4 under 2 k critt with maul at same time eating burn tics of 3k+ or torment 4 about same if not higer or both at same time

While you’re doing the right thing by taking so many cleanses, this doesn’t mean you can just face tank condi builds. Looks like you’re facing condi rev and some variant of burn guard? If so you’re playing ranger, which also has some of the best ways and traits for dealing with condis, you also have the ability to completely range most builds, especially revs and guardians since their condi burst is mostly completely melee or much smaller range than ranger has.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Which ranger spec are you on? Soulbeast has a trait that makes protection also reduce condition damage. Might help you some. That and condi duration reduction food.

[Zero.3871]

@Sansar.1302 said:Condi is overtuned in smal scale and at same time usless in zergs.How can this be fixed?

power is the only way in zergs and still strong in smallscale, how can this be fixed?

[Junkpile.7439]

Stealth is best way handle condis. Enemy can't see you so they can't apply condis.

[Dawdler.8521]

Power damage effiecency exponentially increase above 1v1 while condi damage effiecency exponentially decrease above 1v1.

But yeah sure overtuned in smallscale.

1v1 is not smallscale and even there only the condi rev may lay claim to being OP but not due to its condi dmg, due to the kitten torment runes and hp regen. Condi necro is strong as well but again not due to condi damage - due to its insane shroud regen when fully specced for it. Even if we drag in a confusion mesmer into the mix its the builds that absolutely vomit out clones that makes them strong, not the condi damage.

Pretty much every class has equal or superior power builds... especially when we go above 1v1 and into smallscale.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

@Junkpile.7439 said:Stealth is best way handle condis. Enemy can't see you so they can't apply condis.

Lowkey facts. Made a DH trapper to see if it would work in wvw. Meme build, went for a more hybrid role rather than full power or full condi and used all the traps.

The ability to stealth has saved me vs necros cause I haven't invested in any vitality or toughness and hits strike hard.

But I compensate by waiting in a corner, pop all my traps and yeet someone in them with Spear of Justice.

For the original point though, condi is more challenging than power sometimes. But if you know how to play with the enemy's range you can escape or even win.

[Kovu.7560]

I think its the condition builds' inherent ability to run super tanky rather than the condition-based attacks themselves. (Except for perhaps condi rev.)If you weren't able to deal so much damage while running dire or trailblazer I'd expect smallscale to be a little closer.

There is too much AoE cleansing in large scale, too. Nevermind Purity of Purpose, the sheer cleansing output provided to a squad by a single scrapper negates anything a group of opposing 5 condi builds can bring to the table. At the same time, if condi were meta in large scale I suspect there'd be a loooot more whining than what we have now.

~ Kovu

[Choppy.4183]

@Sansar.1302 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Cleansing

There's like a dozen runes that reduce or remove conditions.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Loaf_of_Saffron_Bread

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Lemongrass_Poultry_Soup

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sweet_Bean_Bun

Every class has condition removal skills or traits.Not every single piece of gear or runes or sigils or skills or traits needs to be dedicated strictly to dps, it's wvw not pve.

Cleansing is overtuned in zergs because massive amount of cleanses available from support specs, plus recycling through purity of purpose, this should be tweaked, but it won't, too many rely on it to carry their groups.

alredy running 4 skill with cleanse and Superior_Sigil_of_Cleansing use foods too.its too little

You might need to work on your positioning and strategy a bit. I don't have nearly the cleanses you do, and I don't find condi builds especially overturned at small scale. Don't get me wrong, some can present a serious threat, but that's fine. Honestly, it's much harder as a class that has to stay in melee with them. Just keep range a bunch, use cc and stealth, and take your time on the tanky ones. With condi revs (which seems like one of the things you're talking about), be ranged,

[Dawdler.8521]

@Kovu.7560 said:I think its the condition builds' inherent ability to run super tanky rather than the condition-based attacks themselves. (Except for perhaps condi rev.)If you weren't able to deal so much damage while running dire or trailblazer I'd expect smallscale to be a little closer.

There is too much AoE cleansing in large scale, too. Nevermind Purity of Purpose, the sheer cleansing output provided to a squad by a single scrapper negates anything a group of opposing 5 condi builds can bring to the table. At the same time, if condi were meta in large scale I suspect there'd be a loooot more whining than what we have now.

~ KovuBy that same logic power builds inherently build for too much damage with marauders, they should all wear soldiers. Because thats fair amirite?

Condi need time to work. There is a reason dire/trailblazer is basicly the only viable condi option thats competetive with power.

Also we already had condi zerg meta for 8 months due to a single reaper skill change on deathly chill. Then Anet fixed it 1 week after PoF was released and everyone had already stopped playing reaper in favor of the vastly superior scourge zerger.

Funnily enough, it had nothing to do with gear or inherent tankiness. It was just spin for the win.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

The problem with Condi is that it makes no sense in the game and they should probably remove it.

Does it make sense that 1 condi cleanse can remove 1 confusion, or 999 confusion? No, no it doesn't make sense. The entire way conditions work is silly. It's always been pretty silly. Damage over Time is fine. This insane stacking of DoTs with the need to add large amounts of cleanses to the game is not.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Condi need time to work. There is a reason dire/trailblazer is basicly the only viable condi option thats competetive with power.

You say that as if Trailblazer/Dire doesn't give you max/near max condition damage.

There's literally only 2 condition stats you care about. Condition damage & expertise. The fact that you only need 2 stats to maximize your damage in and of itself is why condi sets often end up tankier than power sets.

Marauder for instance, is missing ferocity. So while you're hitting hard and critting, your crits are missing damage. How much damage? Like 60-70% more on every crit.

[Dawdler.8521]

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Condi need

time

to work. There is a reason dire/trailblazer is basicly the only viable condi option thats competetive with power.

You say that as if Trailblazer/Dire doesn't give you max/near max condition damage.

There's literally only 2 condition stats you care about. Condition damage & expertise. The fact that you only need 2 stats to maximize your damage in and of itself is why condi sets often end up tankier than power sets.Except, there is 4 stats you have to care about. In addition to that, you need vitality to survive enemy conditions and power damage because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially when the enemy keep cleansing). You also need toughness, because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially against someone that has roflstomp power damage and the capability of knocking 5000+ hp off on every other attack so you have to be on your toes).

That was the point.

Do you know why soldier gear isnt considered viable over marauder?

Basicly the same reason viper isnt considered viable over dire/trailblazer, just in reverse (and thats even with additional power damage on top of condition damage).

Would WvW be a happier place without 4 stat gear? For sure but you know what... that include marauder.

[KrHome.1920]

There is a point of diminishing returns for cleanses as well.

You can not simply pick every cleanse and expect to beat a condi bunker. You end up in lacking damage and stalled fights where the bunker still might beat you after 2 minutes, when you messed up your cleanse coooldowns.

Or in other words: If you have enough damage and cc, then you don't need a single cleanse.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Would WvW be a happier place without 4 stat gear? For sure but you know what... that include marauder.I would vote for changing marauder to power, precision, vitalitiy at any day. This would give us great customisation options with berserker, valkyre and soldier without having to sacrifice any power.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Condi need

time

to work. There is a reason dire/trailblazer is basicly the only viable condi option thats competetive with power.

You say that as if Trailblazer/Dire doesn't give you max/near max condition damage.

There's literally only 2 condition stats you care about. Condition damage & expertise. The fact that you only need 2 stats to maximize your damage in and of itself is why condi sets often end up tankier than power sets.Except, there is 4 stats you have to care about. In addition to that, you need vitality to survive enemy conditions and power damage because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially when the enemy keep cleansing). You also need toughness, because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially against someone that has roflstomp power damage and the capability of knocking 5000+ hp off on every other attack so you have to be on your toes).

We're talking about a condition build. Not a mixed build. As for the lack of viability of viper, you probably shouldn't run any stat set without survivability on its own in WvW. That's kind of a given. Mixing viper with trailblazers though is a perfectly viable option. You just have to understand that you're making yourself a bit squishier.

Which mind you, skilled players at every scale tend to end up going for slightly squishier builds.

Do you know why soldier gear isnt considered viable over marauder?

Because it's easier to convince people to build 1 uniform 4 stat set, than it is to convince them to build a variety of 3 stat sets to achieve the same stats?

I mean, anyone serious about the game likely isn't running full monostat set. I run a mix of zerkers, assassins, and marauders. 4 stat sets aren't meta because they're OP. They're meta because it's easier to get the specific stats you want with them. Before 4 stat sets came to the game, it was a mix of zerkers, assassins, and soldiers. Whooptidoo.

I'll never understand the mentality behind the stat sets being the problem. Restricting amulets in SPvP just looks so silly to me. That time they removed celestials because HoT launched and every build was using it because the devs were horrible at balancing. That was hilarious to me. As if the stats were the problem and not the blatant power creep.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"TheOneWhoSighs.7513" said:We're talking about a condition build. Not a mixed build. As for the lack of viability of viper, you probably shouldn't run any stat set without survivability on its own in WvW. That's kind of a given.And yet condi only needed 2 stats to maximize damage? Well there you go. You can do that to "maximize" damage, but you wouldnt survive against power builds because of the design of condi damage. That's why dire/trailblazer is the viable option. That's kind of a given.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"TheOneWhoSighs.7513" said:We're talking about a condition build. Not a mixed build. As for the lack of viability of viper, you probably shouldn't run any stat set without survivability on its own in WvW. That's kind of a given.And yet condi

only

needed 2 stats to maximize damage? Well there you go. You can do that to "maximize" damage, but you wouldnt survive against power builds because of the design of condi damage. That's why dire/trailblazer is the viable option. That's kind of a given.

Homie, the power guys have to run toughness & vitality too. Idk what world you live in where power builds are running full damage and you're just insta dying without being able to do anything to them.

But that's clearly not the world I live in.

Pure zerkers hasn't been a WvW viable set in like, ever. Outside of meme builds or standing on castle walls and literally never fighting people on the ground. Well, I shouldn't say "ever". Before HoT there was a time where the common man ran zerkers. The game has power creeped far, far beyond that now.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Condi need

time

to work. There is a reason dire/trailblazer is basicly the only viable condi option thats competetive with power.

You say that as if Trailblazer/Dire doesn't give you max/near max condition damage.

There's literally only 2 condition stats you care about. Condition damage & expertise. The fact that you only need 2 stats to maximize your damage in and of itself is why condi sets often end up tankier than power sets.Except, there is 4 stats you have to care about. In addition to that, you need vitality to survive enemy conditions and power damage because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially when the enemy keep cleansing). You also need toughness, because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially against someone that has roflstomp power damage and the capability of knocking 5000+ hp off on every other attack so you have to be on your toes).

That was the point.

Do you know why soldier gear isnt considered viable over marauder?

Basicly the same reason viper isnt considered viable over dire/trailblazer, just in reverse (and thats even with additional power damage on top of condition damage).

Would WvW be a happier place without 4 stat gear? For sure but you know what...

that include marauder

.

Just gonna go on a limb and say you've never met a good condi SB in WvW if you think conditions need time to work lol. I can build one, as many cleanses as one would want, stability, 20k HP, 3k toughness, nearly 2k condi damage....

I don't run this often because it's actually pretty broken. People complain about immobs but have no idea how fast you can die to condi spam. Not intelligent application mind you, just spamming condi with insane defensive stats.

I'm picking on SB here as I've mained ranger since launch, but condi spam applies to a LOT of other classes as well. Sure Rev and trap DH need to be 'close' so you can kind of kite them, but what about pistol thief? Running all that defensive nonsense and a ton of stealth / ports? Yeah that's working great.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Condi need

time

to work. There is a reason dire/trailblazer is basicly the only viable condi option thats competetive with power.

You say that as if Trailblazer/Dire doesn't give you max/near max condition damage.

There's literally only 2 condition stats you care about. Condition damage & expertise. The fact that you only need 2 stats to maximize your damage in and of itself is why condi sets often end up tankier than power sets.Except, there is 4 stats you have to care about. In addition to that, you need vitality to survive enemy conditions and power damage because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially when the enemy keep cleansing). You also need toughness, because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially against someone that has roflstomp power damage and the capability of knocking 5000+ hp off on every other attack so you have to be on your toes).

That was the point.

Do you know why soldier gear isnt considered viable over marauder?

Basicly the same reason viper isnt considered viable over dire/trailblazer, just in reverse (and thats even with additional power damage on top of condition damage).

Would WvW be a happier place without 4 stat gear? For sure but you know what...

that include marauder

.

Just gonna go on a limb and say you've never met a good condi SB in WvW if you think conditions need time to work lol. I can build one, as many cleanses as one would want, stability, 20k HP, 3k toughness, nearly 2k condi damage....

I don't run this often because it's actually pretty broken. People complain about immobs but have no idea how fast you can die to condi spam. Not intelligent application mind you, just spamming condi with insane defensive stats.

I'm picking on SB here as I've mained ranger since launch, but condi spam applies to a LOT of other classes as well. Sure Rev and trap DH need to be 'close' so you can kind of kite them, but what about pistol thief? Running all that defensive nonsense and a ton of stealth / ports? Yeah that's working great.

Last time I met a condi ranger that wasnt a immobeast/immodruid (which usually doesnt build for that much damage, just slow sustain) was yesterday. He was trying to take a sentry. I lost 10% hp at most while he got roflstomped. The other 90%+ of rangers running about run power.

Last time I met a good (well at the very least dangerous) condi SB was probably almost a year ago.

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:Pure zerkers hasn't been a WvW viable set in like, ever. Outside of meme builds or standing on castle walls and literally never fighting people on the ground. Well, I shouldn't say "ever". Before HoT there was a time where the common man ran zerkers. The game has power creeped far, far beyond that now.Yep, same reason anything below dire/trailblazer isnt really viable. Back in those days I ran rabid.

[hobotnicax.7918]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Condi need

time

to work. There is a reason dire/trailblazer is basicly the only viable condi option thats competetive with power.

You say that as if Trailblazer/Dire doesn't give you max/near max condition damage.

There's literally only 2 condition stats you care about. Condition damage & expertise. The fact that you only need 2 stats to maximize your damage in and of itself is why condi sets often end up tankier than power sets.Except, there is 4 stats you have to care about. In addition to that, you need vitality to survive enemy conditions and power damage because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially when the enemy keep cleansing). You also need toughness, because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially against someone that has roflstomp power damage and the capability of knocking 5000+ hp off on every other attack so you have to be on your toes).

That was the point.

Do you know why soldier gear isnt considered viable over marauder?

Basicly the same reason viper isnt considered viable over dire/trailblazer, just in reverse (and thats even with additional power damage on top of condition damage).

Would WvW be a happier place without 4 stat gear? For sure but you know what...

that include marauder

.

Just gonna go on a limb and say you've never met a good condi SB in WvW if you think conditions need time to work lol. I can build one, as many cleanses as one would want, stability, 20k HP, 3k toughness, nearly 2k condi damage....

I don't run this often because it's actually pretty broken. People complain about immobs but have no idea how fast you can die to condi spam. Not intelligent application mind you, just spamming condi with insane defensive stats.

I'm picking on SB here as I've mained ranger since launch, but condi spam applies to a LOT of other classes as well. Sure Rev and trap DH need to be 'close' so you can kind of kite them, but what about pistol thief? Running all that defensive nonsense and a ton of stealth / ports? Yeah that's working great.

Last time I met a condi ranger that wasnt a immobeast/immodruid (which usually doesnt build for that much damage, just slow sustain) was yesterday. He was trying to take a sentry. I lost 10% hp at most while he got roflstomped. The other 90%+ of rangers running about run power.

Last time I met a

good

(well at the very least dangerous) condi SB was probably almost a year ago.

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:Pure zerkers hasn't been a WvW viable set in like, ever. Outside of meme builds or standing on castle walls and literally never fighting people on the ground. Well, I shouldn't say "ever". Before HoT there was a time where the common man ran zerkers. The game has power creeped far, far beyond that now.Yep, same reason anything below dire/trailblazer isnt really viable. Back in those days I ran rabid.

Video shows how broken Elixir S is and has been carrying engies for years. You should had lost the fight, you got outplayed, yet you were carried by one broken af skill.

[Zyreva.1078]

@"TheOneWhoSighs.7513" said:

Pure zerkers hasn't been a WvW viable set in like, ever. Outside of meme builds or standing on castle walls and literally never fighting people on the ground. Well, I shouldn't say "ever". Before HoT there was a time where the common man ran zerkers. The game has power creeped far, far beyond that now.

Full (or mostly) zerk is perfectly fine on classes with medium or high health pool, especially if you pair it with something like dura rune, and far superior to full viper on most if not all classes.I hate fighting condi tanks as much as anyone else, but removing dire/tb would kill most condi builds and i don't think that's desireable (unless cleanses get nerfed heavily, but then it wouldn't be as easy to facetank condis and even more players would cry).Just walk away from builds that are not going to die even if they facetank skills, luckily most of them are not very good at chasing (and this applies to all overly tanky builds - power and condi).

[Dawdler.8521]

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Video shows how broken Elixir S is and has been carrying engies for years. You should had lost the fight, you got outplayed, yet you were carried by one broken af skill.So are you saying... I'm carried by skills giving me sustain even against other sustain condi build? The chock! The horror! Wait that's exactly what I've been saying condi builds need to compete. Got to love people coming into a thread and attacking a video instead of the argument.