Honest disappointment regarding Primordus

[Crono.4197]

On 5/4/2021 at 12:28 PM, Vayne.8563 said:

Yep, I believe this completely. But that same low expectation will work to the expansions advantage if it turns out to be good. People won't be expecting much and surpassed expectations are what's going to move this game forward. I think hype kills more games than anything else.

 

And what will they bring in that expansion? Elite specializations? Yeah don't care, I still use Dragon Hunter and gonna continue to stick with it. Raids, Strikes? Yeah I don't care. I used to be an elitist dungeon players in other MMOs and I'm tired of all the "play perfect to clear dungeon or we kick you out of the team" or "Oh my new shiny armor, look guys! I'm better than you!". Story? I don't care about DsD as it had no buildup. I bet they're gonna add another random feature just to make it seem like another copy-paste of WoW like all the other MMOs feel. Guild Wars 2 was different, but it started adding these kind of things just to please people searching for a new WoW. At the moment the expansion doesn't mean anything for me.

 

Also a lot more people care about the story than you realize, but ArenaNet deleted the original voting poll where people complained, and since ever since they did that, the opinions have been over the place because people either didn't come back to the forums after that, or they didn't wanna re-vote/re-comment. Pretty sure more people care about the story than they care about Raid/Strikes/Elitist content.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Crono.4197
Small typo

[sewenewes.4176]

I'm going to go against the mold and say that I don't think they ever could have done Primordius justice, no matter the time and budget. He has been built up for so many years now but is essentially just a mindless force of destruction. How do you do present that in a compelling way? It would be like writing a story around an earthquake or volcanic explosion. Not about their effects on the land, the wildlife, and humans but just solely about the natural phenomenom itself. Primordius has no schemes or goals and doesn't care about anything except consuming magic. His minions are an extension of that mindless chaotic energy.

 

The real mistake was trying to condense him into a generic dragon shape that can be fought with. Should have left him lurking in the depths. By now he became so powerful and large that it would have been feasible to say that he permanently fused with the land itself and can not leave it nor can be killed without killing Tyria itself. His narrative strength was never in him being an active antagonist but in what his mere existence caused.

 

They could have completed the arc of the countless characters who fought alongside us throughout the years and made them part of a unified order dedicated to keeping the destroyers at bay and dealing with natural disasters that Primordius causes. Might have been a good catalyst for the next expansion as well. Setting our sights on Cantha in search for a better solution.

[Imba.9451]

41 minutes ago, ewenness.6482 said:

I'm going to go against the mold and say that I don't think they ever could have done Primordius justice, no matter the time and budget. He has been built up for so many years now but is essentially just a mindless force of destruction. How do you do present that in a compelling way? It would be like writing a story around an earthquake or volcanic explosion. Not about their effects on the land, the wildlife, and humans but just solely about the natural phenomenom itself. Primordius has no schemes or goals and doesn't care about anything except consuming magic. His minions are an extension of that mindless chaotic energy.

Thats because Anet decided to go with that explanation NOW. We didn't have much information about Primordus beforehand. It would have been incredibly easy to suddenly have Primordus speak and say something along the line of: "Foolish, insignificant mortals. A true tragedy, that you not understand your insignificance in the greater scheme of things."

Or anything that implies Primordus simply did not WANT to communicate because he didn't see any reason to do so. It could have served as a setup for thing to come AND given Primordus meaning as something much greater and more knowing than anything that came before him.

Quote

The real mistake was trying to condense him into a generic dragon shape that can be fought with. Should have left him lurking in the depths. By now he became so powerful and large that it would have been feasible to say that he permanently fused with the land itself and can not leave it nor can be killed without killing Tyria itself. His narrative strength was never in him being an active antagonist but in what his mere existence caused.

I actually agree with this, to an extend. Like i said, given the right time and setting (*cough* depths of tyria expansion *cough*), we could have found out so much more about him. Maybe from kitten dwaves, who kept fighting for hundreds of years. maybe from leftover Asura. And the gods know what else might be lurking in the shadows (*cough* deepstone *cough*). All the potential for great wordlbuilding and storytelling gone.

Quote

They could have completed the arc of the countless characters who fought alongside us throughout the years and made them part of a unified order dedicated to keeping the destroyers at bay and dealing with natural disasters that Primordius causes. Might have been a good catalyst for the next expansion as well. Setting our sights on Cantha in search for a better solution.

Absolutely agree. More ambient dialogue during the "fight" with Jormag and Primordus would have gone a long way to at least make it bearable. I actually enjoy chatter or monologues during fights a great deal. Balthazar was fun beceuase of his ranting. The final boss during nightmare fractal feels eery and emposing because of his monologue. Deepstone feels ambient because of the two characters chatting the whole time.

This just shows that they either did not care or did not have the capacity to bring all the voice actors in. Probably both.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Imba.9451

[voltaicbore.8012]

5 hours ago, ewenness.6482 said:

I'm going to go against the mold and say that I don't think they ever could have done Primordius justice, no matter the time and budget.

 

They could have done a substantially less terrible job, IMO. Both you and @Imba.9451 suggest many things that would have helped. Even if just a handful of things were implemented, I think it would have greatly improved the flavor of the finale.

 

I for one, think they could have kept the finale largely as it is, but done 3 small things: 

 

(1) start the finale with a brief discussion of how us not being united enough against Jormag allowed the Ice Dragon to fortify itself to the point where the only force capable of getting through to Jormag is Primordus;

(2) apply the ley-lines-compel-dragons bit to just Primordus, as the whole "unthinking brute" thing they set up fits more naturally there, and drag Primordus right to Jormag's doorstep;

(3) have a short kaiju battle cutscene (maybe not even fully rendered in engine, butl ike the Bloodstone Fen or some of the more stylized dungeon cutscenes) where the two dragons really go at it. The actual finale instance we played would come after that, and would help explain why both dragons seem so static and weak at that stage.

 

Points (1) and (2) can literally be achieved with nothing more than a minute of changed NPC dialogue. The cutscene in (3) is perhaps the only substantial change involved, but I'm sure the moving-painting style cutscene is easier to pull off in many respects than a proper in-engine rendered cutscene. I posted this idea in a different thread as well, but am too lazy to find it again.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

To be honest, I'm at the point where I'm trying to justify reasons to keep playing. I think the game plot wise is such a mess that it really needs a remaster rather than another expansion. The story plots and other things need reworked throughout the game. The personal story could be improved if they split it from the Zhaitan arc, giving the player character a much more thorough plot. They totally ignored the possibility of Joko co-opting the left over risen to gain a foothold in core Tyria. Of course they just casually killed Joko off when they had him as the perfect villain for a post-elder dragon world.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

3 hours ago, Tekoneiric.6817 said:

To be honest, I'm at the point where I'm trying to justify reasons to keep playing. I think the game plot wise is such a mess that it really needs a remaster rather than another expansion. The story plots and other things need reworked throughout the game. The personal story could be improved if they split it from the Zhaitan arc, giving the player character a much more thorough plot. They totally ignored the possibility of Joko co-opting the left over risen to gain a foothold in core Tyria. Of course they just casually killed Joko off when they had him as the perfect villain for a post-elder dragon world.

Bit of an aside but Lorewise its not a given that Joko would even be able to take control of the Risen due to them being Dragon Minions first and foremost with them being undead secondary.

[lezbefriends.7516]

On 5/4/2021 at 2:07 AM, Donutdude.9582 said:

The original post outlined my feelings about the latest story release in a much more eloquent and level-headed way than my inital reaction to it.  After playing it, I exploded at ArenaNet on Twitter and in WoodenPotatoes' videos on the release whilst I was full of anger and rage.

 

I uninstalled the game after playing it due to how betrayed I felt.  Whether it stays that way will depend on if I fall in love with the game and its lore once again after replaying the first game.  I have grown up with this franchise and its story.  It feels a part of me.  For it to be gone leaves me feeling...hollow.

 

Thank you for making this post.  I sincerely hope ArenaNet see feedback like this and, at the very least, offer an apology to us.  A proper apology.

Imagine being angry over a video game’s storyline.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

30 minutes ago, Mortifera.6138 said:

Imagine being angry over a video game’s storyline.

Why not?  Pretty much everybody has something that they are going out of their minds over that's stupider than this.

[Nazarick.9653]

On 5/4/2021 at 8:56 AM, Teratus.2859 said:

It's like a terrified evil Superman telling you about this ultra powerful and ancient being that wants to destroy the world is coming.. telling you how dangerous it is and that we all have to unite in order to defeat it.. that there is no other way and if we do not unite we will all die. 
Then the big evil being shows up and Superman proceeds to kill it in one punch.

 

That must be it - the Commander is Saitama in disguise!

[Bast.7253]

I just wonder why DRM's. I mean, they didn't really add anything to the story and they weren't fun to play. 

I know they were working with a low budget but it seems like making some story instances and focusing on a cohesive story experience leading up to this conclusion would have made it feel a little better than just tossing in a grindy instance dynamic invasion event.

I mean, I don't know how many resources they spent on the Caladbolg current event story but it feels like they probably could have done a series of those in place the DRM's that would have been a better alternative. lol
 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

20 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

I just wonder why DRM's. I mean, they didn't really add anything to the story and they weren't fun to play. 

I know they were working with a low budget but it seems like making some story instances and focusing on a cohesive story experience leading up to this conclusion would have made it feel a little better than just tossing in a grindy instance dynamic invasion event.

I mean, I don't know how many resources they spent on the Caladbolg current event story but it feels like they probably could have done a series of those in place the DRM's that would have been a better alternative. lol
 

Easy. Because DRMs are literally something the forums have claimed they wanted for years. Its

-Living World S1 style content.

-That is repeatable.

-That never goes away.

-That expands upon the base game's maps and stories.

-But doesn't permanently alter the base game's maps like Tower of Nightmares did.

-The content scales based on how many people are in it, meaning its always playable for however long the game goes on for. Unlike a lot of map events/metas which are now impossible to do since no one plays them anymore.

-The bosses are more challenging/have more mechanics then the typical open world boss, but aren't raid boss level of difficult.

-There are optional challenge motes to make the experience harder for those wanting a more difficult experience.

 

DRMs are literally the middle ground between open world and raid difficulty content people have been asking for years for.

 

And, from what we can tell based off of the IBS portal tome, the IBS trailer, and Anet's comments, the Champions releases we got are the same overall story, just condensed down. There was going to be four more episodes, and two more maps, most likely being

-Episodes 5/6 going to the Centaur homeland. Episode 5 has destroyer's attacking the place, us responding(like Champions P1 did) episode 6 would likely have been Jormag counter attacking by freezing things over(like Champions P2 was)

-7/8 would have bee the big "Dragonstorm" meta map. first us has us fighting the generic destroyers/Icebrood, with Braham showing up after becoming Primordus's champion. Episode 8 is basically the dragonstorm event we have now, champion v champion fight, and having Jormag and Primordus kill each indirect battle.

 

The only real difference is that instead of getting developments on the Tengu, Flame Legion, Ebonhawke/Charr treaty, and the other stories the DRMs covered, it would have been more focused on the centaurs for episodes 5/6.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Zola.6197]

I don’t think DRMs are a bad format for delivering story content/gameplay. While I do believe they needed more refinement I felt they were able to do interesting things with them. I liked seeing updates on old locations through the DRMs, but it’s clear they were employed as content that was more easily producible for the studio vs a format they’d always planned on doing.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

The story writing went downhill with Scarlet and, with very few exceptions, continued its spiral.  

 

People come and go, the vision for the game changes and the story suffers. 

[lezbefriends.7516]

On 5/6/2021 at 3:48 AM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Why not?  Pretty much everybody has something that they are going out of their minds over that's stupider than this.

*sigh* Please get your priorities straightened out.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

On 5/12/2021 at 1:33 PM, Mortifera.6138 said:

*sigh* Please get your priorities straightened out.

My priorities are not any of your business and as far as I'm concerned they are in near perfect order.

[Lord Korag.8439]

Tbh now when they are talking about a smaller expansions, I somehow hope they will come with something related to Primordus. He may be dead (I mean as long as the devs say it), but he left couple of corrupted whatever in the Depths. 

After all, small expansion defines exactly what was Primordus content from the launch. Minimalistic, few fires here or there, few corrupted dwarves, one volcano. We still know nearly nothing about him and that gives plenty of space.

[Lord Korag.8439]

On 5/11/2021 at 4:35 AM, Zola.6197 said:

I don’t think DRMs are a bad format for delivering story content/gameplay. While I do believe they needed more refinement I felt they were able to do interesting things with them. I liked seeing updates on old locations through the DRMs, but it’s clear they were employed as content that was more easily producible for the studio vs a format they’d always planned on doing.

They are not. The only bad moment was they gave away just DRMs alone. Nothing else, within a relatively long timespan. Should it be connected to even a tiny, minimalistic fresh volcanic map, Primordus would have been taken much easier by the playerbase. I mean, this was the plan, but due to the expansion it got scrapped. Oops.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Lord Korag.8439

[bruakumfd.4817]

On 5/12/2021 at 2:33 PM, lezbefriends.7516 said:

*sigh* Please get your priorities straightened out.

Are you sure you don't need to? As far as I'm concerned, people are entitled to complained about something they need to pay for. Oh, and story is supposed to be a huge part of an RPG. Don't agree? Cool. There's always mindless shooters.

[bruakumfd.4817]

I usually tune out when somebody says they don't care about something yet go on about it. However, I have to make an exception after agreeing so much. It helps that I did the final fight against Mordremoth recently. While it was frustrating, that was certainly better than them hyping up Zhaitan and making everything else harder than him. 

Still, the only issues I had with the IBS saga was the Raven Sanctum and how the Commander was the one of the few reasonable people. Everybody was either painfully stubborn or self-serving.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

2 hours ago, bruakumfd.4817 said:

Are you sure you don't need to? As far as I'm concerned, people are entitled to complained about something they need to pay for. Oh, and story is supposed to be a huge part of an RPG. Don't agree? Cool. There's always mindless shooters.

Why engage Morti two years later?  Best not to engage her at all.