Finally New engine!

[Blackhearted.1264]

8 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

I don't mind if you use 10. I don't even mind if you like it. Being ridiculously dismissive of those who don't want to run it however is incredibly disrespectful and stupid.

You know what's also incredibly stupid? Being a hold out for a dead, 12 year old OS. Continuing to spread the whole "hurrdurr windows 10 bad" crap from 2015. And continuing to believe the many outdated, debunked, or simply inaccurate claims as if they're facts. You can't really complain about people supposedly being dismissive of you when people like you instantly dismiss anything that doesn't unquestionably align with their blind windows 10 hate.

[Astralporing.1957]

11 hours ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

This makes zero sense.  No one should be running Win7 in 2021, Win10 was a free upgrade, and people have had years to buy a Win10 key if they somehow could not upgrade.

Then check the very same steam survey. Dx12 cards are at above 90%, but dx12 supporting systems are a whole ten percentage points lower.

 

11 hours ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

No, because no one cares about the six Win7 holdouts in 2021.  They deserve whatever virus-infested experience they get, and no company is going to cater to them.

 

Really? So, you're saying that companies will just flat out ignore as much as 20% of the market?

[maddoctor.2738]

19 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

Ok, this is just not right. 8.1 is literally just a slightly better 7 underneath the hood. It's gonna have the exact same performance numbers, if a little bit better. And boot times don't count. They are not an accurate indicator of general OS performance whatsoever. And if you still don't believe me, my 8-year-old laptop with integrated graphics and only 4 GBs of RAM can run Windows 7 out of the box with no internal modifications whatsoever flawlessly. No slowdowns. No slow file access times. Pretty much zero lag overall. Everything is very quick and snappy. Even the Firefox browser I use, mostly. And it uses only 700 MBs of RAM doing it. 10 would have a freaking seizure on that laptop, guaranteed.

 

In reality, Windows 8 is much different compared to Windows 7. I think you might've confused Windows 7 and Vista, those were similar. But 8 has fundamental differences "under the hood" compared to 7. I use Windows 10 on my 7 year old tablet, with 4 GB of Ram and integrated graphics (Intel ATOM CPU). Works just fine and is noticeably faster compared to the Windows 7 it used to have before I upgraded it. And I use Chrome, which is a resource beast. So I really don't care if your old laptop runs well with Windows 7, that doesn't tell anything.

17 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

If anything else, you should see how it handles booting from a hard drive. Or should I say, how it almost doesn't. Windows 7/8.1 doesn't give a freak about it, but for some reason, 10 grinds almost to a halt.

 

As I've tried it, on the same PC, formatted and clean, Windows 10 PC boots fine a mechanical drive. I also have Windows 10 on my tablet and on 3 more different old PCs with mechanical hard drives, none of which have any issues with booting, in fact all of them are booting significantly faster with Windows 10 compared to Windows 7, so your argument is invalid.

Edited July 5, 2021 by maddoctor.2738

[Dawdler.8521]

12 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

Nah, trust me, man. It's inferior in performance too. LTT did a video showing even Linux beating Windows 10 in performance, games wise, even though the game was running through Proton.

Do you mean the video that is all paid promotion and doesnt contain any gaming benchmark comparisons or do you mean another video?

 

Just wondering.

[Faridah.8431]

4 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Do you mean the video that is all paid promotion and doesnt contain any gaming benchmark comparisons or do you mean another video?

 

Just wondering.

Yeah most of these tech tubers are just marketing channels now. It's why you have a whole new generation of people entering hobbies like water cooling PCs and thinking EK is great and then wondering why their loops are dirty and nickel plating failing.

 

Sorry went on a tangeant. I agree with you.

[Arnox.5128]

10 hours ago, Blackhearted.1264 said:

You know what's also incredibly stupid? Being a hold out for a dead, 12 year old OS. Continuing to spread the whole "hurrdurr windows 10 bad" crap from 2015. And continuing to believe the many outdated, debunked, or simply inaccurate claims as if they're facts. You can't really complain about people supposedly being dismissive of you when people like you instantly dismiss anything that doesn't unquestionably align with their blind windows 10 hate.

 

I'd love to hear your takes on:

- Forced automatic updates
- Buggy builds getting constantly shipped out as updates
- Privacy issues
- Windows 10 being treated as a service instead of an iteration as it was in the past. (And what that implies for dev work/monetization)
- Removing programs that used to be bundled into the Windows OS and selling them back to the user (examples include Solitaire and the Windows Ink Sketchpad)
- Microsoft just generally fighting with users for control of their own systems such as updates often "accidentally" reenabling or redisabling a setting or registry key that the user set explicitly or installing unwanted programs or etc.
- Very questionable performance
- No HomeGroup

 

  

8 hours ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

I use Windows 10 on my 7 year old tablet, with 4 GB of Ram and integrated graphics (Intel ATOM CPU). Works just fine and is noticeably faster compared to the Windows 7 it used to have before I upgraded it.

 

With no modifications? This is an out-of-the-box install? Also, which version of 10 is it? I believe launch 10 was actually kinda good.

 

8 hours ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

As I've tried it, on the same PC, formatted and clean, Windows 10 PC boots fine a mechanical drive. I also have Windows 10 on my tablet and on 3 more different old PCs with mechanical hard drives, none of which have any issues with booting, in fact all of them are booting significantly faster with Windows 10 compared to Windows 7, so your argument is invalid.

 

I'm not talking about booting, I'm talking about performance. They are NOT the same. Booting times can be "faked".

 

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Do you mean the video that is all paid promotion and doesnt contain any gaming benchmark comparisons or do you mean another video?

 

Just wondering.

 

See for yourself:

 

And that was a year ago, mind you.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Telgum.6071]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Really? So, you're saying that companies will just flat out ignore as much as 20% of the market?

Oh boy, of course this is going to happen. How many games have upgraded and leave WXP and Vista users behind? 

 

It doesn't work like you think it does, "there are too many W7 users, we can't abandon them!". The moment Microsoft stops releasing security updates your OS becomes instantly obsolete, which means, in time, you'll lose more and more access to services across the years if you refuse to upgrade your system. Companies won't bother to work on support for insecure and obsolete systems.

 

I don't like it, but it is what it is, and claiming that is not going to happen because there are many W7 users is just ignorance. Specially because in time that "population" is going to drop across the years.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[Dawdler.8521]

7 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

See for yourself:

 

And that was a year ago, mind you.

There is one Windows vs Linux game comparison in that clip that last about 8s and its... CS:Go.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Astralporing.1957]

8 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Oh boy, of course this is going to happen. How many games have upgraded and leave WXP and Vista users behind? 

Not many, actually. Most games do not ever get upgraded, and of those that do, most retain backward compatibility. Cases of the games that fully abandon compatibility for the system they were originally made are quite rare.

(well, unless we're talking about Vista. everyone abandoned Vista, but there were some very good reasons for that)

 

8 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

It doesn't work like you think it does, "there are too many W7 users, we can't abandon them!". The moment Microsoft stops releasing security updates your OS becomes instantly obsolete, which means, in time, you'll lose more and more access to services across the years if you refuse to upgrade your system. Companies won't bother to work on support for insecure and obsolete systems.

No. Companies won't bother to work on systems that have a marginal market share. Until a system reaches that point however, many companies actually do still bother.

 

8 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I don't like it, but it is what it is, and claiming that is not going to happen because there are many W7 users is just ignorance. Specially because in time that "population" is going to drop across the years.

In time, yes (like it eventually dropped for XP), but we're not completely there yet. Sure, some companies might have stopped suporting W7 on their new software, but i'm yet to see any case of dropped compatibility for it for an already existing product. I don't doubt that there are probably some such cases already, but so far it is very very marginal.

[Arnox.5128]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

There is one Windows vs Linux game comparison in that clip that last about 8s and its... CS:Go.

 

OK so looking at some other benchmark videos, I want to make a correction (At least for that time period anyway. I don't know how it is now.) Looks like Linux does still trail a little behind with Proton. With that said, it doesn't really matter as all I have to point to is the legion of distros that can run on old-as-hell hardware just fine where Windows 10 probably wouldn't even install to.

 

  

13 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Oh boy, of course this is going to happen. How many games have upgraded and leave WXP and Vista users behind? 

 

It doesn't work like you think it does, "there are too many W7 users, we can't abandon them!". The moment Microsoft stops releasing security updates your OS becomes instantly obsolete, which means, in time, you'll lose more and more access to services across the years if you refuse to upgrade your system. Companies won't bother to work on support for insecure and obsolete systems.

 

I don't like it, but it is what it is, and claiming that is not going to happen because there are many W7 users is just ignorance. Specially because in time that "population" is going to drop across the years.

 

 

 

- The issue isn't that Microsoft made a new OS. The issue is that the new OS that was supposedly made to replace the others with no issues sucks incredibly and is a terrible replacement. But it doesn't matter to Microsoft because they want to force everyone to upgrade to it anyway without fixing it.

 

- What companies support or don't support is their choice and I'm not going to speculate on what will or won't happen. What I will say is that Microsoft has tried time and time again to make it seem like if you leave Windows unupdated for more than 10 seconds, it'll explode and the 1337 evil hackers will get in. This is total BS. There is no replacement for good security habits by the user. None. And this also works the other way around. There will be no amount of updates that will stop your computer from getting compromised if you're stupid as hell about it.

 

DISCLAIMER: IF YOU ARE RUNNING AN ENTERPRISE SYSTEM OR SYSTEMS, MICROSOFT ACTUALLY IS RIGHT IN THIS REGARD AND YOU DO NEED TO KEEP YOUR SYSTEM UP TO DATE.

 

- Yeah, it is what it is, but I'll MUCH sooner switch to Linux for good than switch to 10. And 7/8.1 still have lots of life left in them anyway. They will probably be too old to run sometime soonish. Maybe. But that is not this day.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[HappyHubris.1096]

22 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Then check the very same steam survey. Dx12 cards are at above 90%, but dx12 supporting systems are a whole ten percentage points lower.

 

Really? So, you're saying that companies will just flat out ignore as much as 20% of the market?

The Steam results are skewed by Net Cafes in developing countries that use pirated older versions of Windows.  This creates wonky results.

 

I mean, the last Steam Survey showed that Win 10 went down 2.5% and Win 7 went up 2.9%.  Do you think that a bunch of people went out and traded in their Win 10 systems for Win 7 or bought new Win 7 machines?  No, some free game became popular in developing countries and they logged a bunch of pirated machines onto Steam.

Edited July 6, 2021 by HappyHubris.1096

[HappyHubris.1096]

43 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

all I have to point to is the legion of distros that can run on old-as-hell hardware just fine where Windows 10 probably wouldn't even install to.

1. People wanting to play GW2 aren't going to be running a Pentium 2.
2. "probably wouldn't even install to" is you just making something up.  I stuck Win10 on my old netbook from 2009 with AMD's ultra low power cores, a slow HDD, minimal RAM, etc.  And it worked fine.  That system isn't relevant today, let alone anything even more ancient.

I've been hearing people tell me that Linux on the Desktop will catch on for over 15 years now, but it turns out that the vast majority of people are happy to pay $100 to avoid it.

[Arnox.5128]

12 minutes ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

1. People wanting to play GW2 aren't going to be running a Pentium 2.
2. "probably wouldn't even install to" is you just making something up.  I stuck Win10 on my old netbook from 2009 with AMD's ultra low power cores, a slow HDD, minimal RAM, etc.  And it worked fine.  That system isn't relevant today, let alone anything even more ancient.

I've been hearing people tell me that Linux on the Desktop will catch on for over 15 years now, but it turns out that the vast majority of people are happy to pay $100 to avoid it.

 

1. Irrelevant. Linux is far more performant than 10. That was the point.

2. There it is again. "It worked fine" What the hell does that mean? That it booted? That it can open up File Explorer? How long did it take to do even basic tasks as compared to using literally any other OS?

 

Yeah, people can DEAL with 10. Just like people can DEAL with hemorrhoids. But you know, I'd rather not. Especially since an OS is LITERALLY ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT pieces of software you or I or anyone is ever going to run on their machine, and especially since there's still much better options.

 

And this is what I don't get. People coming in here to defend an OS that's terrible. Why? Why are you doing this? Does the Windows marketing team give you $1,000 and a kitten for every Windows 10 install? What horse do you have in this race? Why do you feel it necessary to degrade others who want to stick to an OS that's fully stable, light, doesn't force updates, and doesn't try to reset settings with every update?

Edited July 6, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Manasa Devi.7958]

Windows 10 is an atrocity. After every major update and many minor ones too, I need to scour my system for things it re-enabled and stuff it installed that I don't want.

[maddoctor.2738]

15 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

With no modifications? This is an out-of-the-box install? Also, which version of 10 is it? I believe launch 10 was actually kinda good.

 

Yes out of the box install with all updates. I've used multiple Windows 10 PCs/tablets, ranging from Atom CPUs, old Core 2 Quad, I7 6th and up to Zen 2. All with the latest updates, constantly updating when they are released, and never had any issues on any of them.

 

15 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

I'm not talking about booting, I'm talking about performance. They are NOT the same. Booting times can be "faked".

 

I'm talking about performance as well, ever since Windows 8 released it smashed Windows 7 in performance. And Windows 10 is an update over Windows 8 so it carried over most performance benefits. You were the one that said:

 

15 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

If anything else, you should see how it handles booting from a hard drive. Or should I say, how it almost doesn't. Windows 7/8.1 doesn't give a freak about it, but for some reason, 10 grinds almost to a halt.

 

Which is obviously false, since most machines I tried Windows 10 have mechanical hard drives and they all boot significantly faster on 10 compared to 7.

 

15 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

With that said, it doesn't really matter as all I have to point to is the legion of distros that can run on old-as-hell hardware just fine where Windows 10 probably wouldn't even install to.

 

I'm running Windows 10 on my old E8400 (Core 2 Duo) which can also play several old/easy games (also has Steam installed to run them). You want even older than that? And... game on it?

Edited July 6, 2021 by maddoctor.2738

[Vilin.8056]

2 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

 

1. Irrelevant. Linux is far more performant than 10. That was the point.

2. There it is again. "It worked fine" What the hell does that mean? That it booted? That it can open up File Explorer? How long did it take to do even basic tasks as compared to using literally any other OS?

 

Yeah, people can DEAL with 10. Just like people can DEAL with hemorrhoids. But you know, I'd rather not. Especially since an OS is LITERALLY ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT pieces of software you or I or anyone is ever going to run on their machine, and especially since there's still much better options.

 

And this is what I don't get. People coming in here to defend an OS that's terrible. Why? Why are you doing this? Does the Windows marketing team give you $1,000 and a kitten for every Windows 10 install? What horse do you have in this race? Why do you feel it necessary to degrade others who want to stick to an OS that's fully stable, light, doesn't force updates, and doesn't try to reset settings with every update?

And text based command prompt OS like DOS was far more performant than any Windows.

And you know what? It's replaced and we never looked back.

 

I've watched that LTT video, and that's nothing new. Since 2007 there were already reports that some windows games running faster in Linux under WINE compatibility layer than Windows XP (Which also run DX9 games faster than Windows 7)

You are free to live in gaming in Linux, I've been there, if spending countless hours dealing with compatibility tuning, documentation browsing, glitch solving and researching for custom GPU drivers every single time just to play one game is your thing, go for it.

 

The truth is that the world favors windows 10, Windows 7/8 is abandoned, by sticking with these legacy OS that is the fate in which you chose to accept. You know this.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[phokus.8934]

46 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

The truth is that the world favors windows 10, Windows 7/8 is abandoned, by sticking with these legacy OS that is the fate in which you chose to accept. You know this.

I call this the Uncle Rico Effect.

 

"Coach woulda put me in fourth quarter, we would've been state champions. No doubt. No doubt in my mind."

[Ayrilana.1396]

16 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Forced automatic updates

They can be disabled

 

16 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Privacy issues

Most, if not all, can be addressed by changing the settings. 
 

16 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Microsoft just generally fighting with users for control of their own systems such as updates often "accidentally" reenabling or redisabling a setting or registry key that the user set explicitly or installing unwanted programs or etc.

I’ve never had this issue. 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

They can be disabled

Only delayed. And you can't disable/delay specific updates at all

 

 

1 hour ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

Most, if not all, can be addressed by changing the settings. 

Some can. Some needs more tweaking. And some consistently return after each major update (which you can't disable).

 

1 hour ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

I’ve never had this issue. 

As an admin of AD consisting of several hundred workstations (and even bigger number of users), i am running into this issue on the everyday basis.

 

Generally, windows 10 is way harder to manage than windows 7 was , because the system constantly assumes that the only system administrator worthy of its name is the system itself, and "local administrator" is just a shortcut for "that user that wants to make changes we don't want them to make, because we surely can't trust them to know what they're doing".

I'm not a fan of that approach.

[Ayrilana.1396]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Only delayed. And you can't disable/delay specific updates at all

 

It can be disabled permanently.

 

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Some can. Some needs more tweaking. And some consistently return after each major update (which you can't disable).

 

Every privacy setting that I've set has not reversed in the past however many years since it's been available.

 

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

49 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

It can be disabled permanently.

Short of firewalling yourself off MS servers, no you can't. Even disabling the service is not a permanent solution, because it can be reactivated on its own.

 

Also, the main problem is not blocking off updates. It's being able to choose which updates you want and which you do not. Windows 10 does not give you such an option at all. It's all or nothing.

 

Quote

 

 

Every privacy setting that I've set has not reversed in the past however many years since it's been available.

Why do you think that stuff that gets talked about can be disabled by in-system privacy settings? It's like thinking google doesn't know anything about you because you've turned off all privacy settings in your google account.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[kharmin.7683]

What was the topic of this thread again?

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

12 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

What was the topic of this thread again?

 

If hotdogs are considered Sandwiches or Tacos.

[Faridah.8431]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Generally, windows 10 is way harder to manage than windows 7 was , because the system constantly assumes that the only system administrator worthy of its name is the system itself, and "local administrator" is just a shortcut for "that user that wants to make changes we don't want them to make, because we surely can't trust them to know what they're doing".

I'm not a fan of that approach.

Likewise not a fan. That said, I was asking an old work buddy about this and he said it took a bit to figure out the updates and tweaking some stuff but that they otherwise manage everything critical in GPO and haven't had too many issues doing that. He doesn't find it any harder to control than 7 really, just a bit of a learning curve to get it the way they wanted on an Enterprise scale.

 

But from a personal point of view, agree that I am not a fan of a lot of the ways Microsoft tries to take control.

[Ayrilana.1396]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Short of firewalling yourself off MS servers, no you can't. Even disabling the service is not a permanent solution, because it can be reactivated on its own.

 

Also, the main problem is not blocking off updates. It's being able to choose which updates you want and which you do not. Windows 10 does not give you such an option at all. It's all or nothing.

 

It does give you an option.  I just checked an apparently one of the ways depends on whether you're running the professional version or not.

 

Another way is through the services console although I haven't personally used it.

 

Yet another way is through the registry although I haven't personally done that myself since I don't have issues with the updates.

 

So yeah... you're incorrect about there not being a way.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Why do you think that stuff that gets talked about can be disabled by in-system privacy settings? It's like thinking google doesn't know anything about you because you've turned off all privacy settings in your google account.

 

By all means provide examples instead of generalized hypotheticals.

 

EDIT: I just checked now and all of my settings which I had set years ago are still intact. 
 

Also, for the one saying that solitaire was removed, you’re wrong. It got repackaged under another app which is already installed in Windows and includes a handful of other card games. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396